INFO-VAX Tue, 14 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 555 Contents: Re: DS10 front access storage cage (3X-BA10B-AA) Re: DS10 front access storage cage (3X-BA10B-AA) Re: How to create a shareable image on IA64 using Pascal Re: media of old VMS versions Re: MX list revival Re: MX list revival My Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-80 is back Re: New LaserJet fun (or upward compatibility? What is that?) Re: New LaserJet fun (or upward compatibility? What is that?) printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Re: Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Re: Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Re: Using an Infoserver Re: Using an Infoserver Re: VMS news reader Re: VMS news reader ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:03:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Len Whitwer Subject: Re: DS10 front access storage cage (3X-BA10B-AA) Message-ID: <7e10ce8b-831e-477e-a7e0-99fe42922efc@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com> On Oct 11, 12:19=A0am, The Spriteman wrote: > i have a DS10 with internal Storage cage, but now i am searching for a fr= ont > acces storage cage, > > does anywhone here know what the best way is to find one? whithout paying > the full price. > > i live in Amsterdam (Netherlands) > > With regards, > > Robin > robinschip at hotmail dot com Hi Robin: We can get you the DS10 front access cage (3X-BA10B-AA) for $395.00 Please let me know if I can help. Regards, -Len Whitwer Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 Woodinville, WA 98072 e-mail mailto:len@psds.com Internet: http://www.psds.com Toll Free: (866)857-0710 Tel: (425) 488-0710 Fax: (425) 488-6414 AOL IM: lenPSDS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:53:53 -0400 From: "David Turner, islandco.com" Subject: Re: DS10 front access storage cage (3X-BA10B-AA) Message-ID: Really? Where? I have been looking for these and will willingly pay that price How many do you have available? I know HP doesn't have them -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "Len Whitwer" wrote in message news:7e10ce8b-831e-477e-a7e0-99fe42922efc@s9g2000prm.googlegroups.com... On Oct 11, 12:19 am, The Spriteman wrote: > i have a DS10 with internal Storage cage, but now i am searching for a > front > acces storage cage, > > does anywhone here know what the best way is to find one? whithout paying > the full price. > > i live in Amsterdam (Netherlands) > > With regards, > > Robin > robinschip at hotmail dot com Hi Robin: We can get you the DS10 front access cage (3X-BA10B-AA) for $395.00 Please let me know if I can help. Regards, -Len Whitwer Puget Sound Data Systems, Inc. 19501 144th Ave. NE Suite D-100 Woodinville, WA 98072 e-mail mailto:len@psds.com Internet: http://www.psds.com Toll Free: (866)857-0710 Tel: (425) 488-0710 Fax: (425) 488-6414 AOL IM: lenPSDS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 06:07:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: How to create a shareable image on IA64 using Pascal Message-ID: On Oct 12, 5:24=A0am, "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I've got absolutely nothing against people touting for business in a foru= m > like this, and if spreading a bit of FUD around helps drive some anxious = or > insecure customers in your direction them more power to ya! But when > customers (and anything left that resembles a development community) are = put > off from using VMS for a shared-memory application because "there be > dragons" or "we use *nix for that" then I've had enough! > > On *nix, and sepcifically with Java, you can find all sorts of documentat= ion > discussing threading issues and why using wait/notify is now the recommen= ded > thread synchronization method, plus heaps of discussion *and examples* in > development forums about performance vs atomicity and mutex granularity. = Yet > on VMS, all one hears is "I wouldn't do that if I were you" or "We know > something you don't know nah nah nanah nah" :-( If you are really that > concerned about what can go wrong with a global section application then = why > don't you bring out a Technical Journal article with the "right" way to d= o > it? Perhaps a statistics Global Section that is being hammered by hundred= s > of concurrent processes, discussing lighweight locking techniques vs the > DLM? Incorporate the new Infiniband API for cluster propagation and I'll > read it myself! > > Otherwise, let it be known, that sharing data between processes via a Glo= bal > Section (whether an installed PSECT or $crmpsc or VLM) is something that = has > been done on VMS since about year dot. Maybe Larry Ellison should agree w= ith > you and doesn't offer Cache Fusion on VMS? I see this as essential and ba= sic > functionality that people should be able to receive support for and not t= he > usual "As seen at Gezelter labs" or "While I was speaking to Koffee and > Butrus Butrus the other day at my address to the G7". > > Regards Richard Maher > > "Bob Gezelter" wrote in message > > news:8a3dbb4d-bfc9-433b-ba9f-efa9b3ae84ec@q26g2000prq.googlegroups.com... > > > On Oct 8, 5:52 am, "Richard Maher" > > wrote: > > > Hi Adrian, > > > > (Not so much for your benefit as for aothers that may be reading here= ) > > > > Please do not listen to the incompetent filfth that have responded he= re! > > > Heaven forbid that VMS has to contend with the "Can't handle shared > memory > > > slur" on top of everything else :-( > > > > There is nothing wrong with "COMMON" areas and shared PSECTs! Tell th= e > usual > > > suspects to "you know what"! > > > > OOh! Global Sections are spooky; leave them to Unix! What about Cache > > > Fusion? What about an operating system that offers functionality? Glo= bal > > > Sections "a bridge too far"? > > > > You all make me sick! > > > > Regards Richard Maher > > > > "Ade" wrote in message > > > >news:rYlGk.35222$0D6.20078@newsfe01.ams2... > > > > > Hi, > > > > > Does anyone have a quick example of how to create a shareable image > using > > > > Pascal on IA64 (or please correct the code below). It is intended t= hat > > > this > > > > image, when installed with /open/header/share/write, =A0will be use= d > simply > > > as > > > > a data repository for other applications which are linked together > with > > > it. > > > > All the examples I have seen in the documentation refer to shared > memory > > > > between linked object files rather than against a shareable image. = Any > > > help > > > > you can give me would be greatly appreciated. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Adrian Birkett > > > > > My example: > > > > > $ edit common.pas > > > > { potential common storage module } > > > > [environment ('common')] > > > > module common; > > > > type > > > > =A0 =A0 common_r =3D record > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 my_int : integer; > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 my_str : varying [10] of char; > > > > =A0 =A0 end; > > > > end. > > > > > $ pascal common.pas > > > > $ link common/share > > > > $ install add/open/head/share/write disk1:[dir]common.exe > > > > $ define common disk1:[dir]common.exe > > > > > $ edit prog1.pas > > > > {simple data writer program} > > > > [inherit ('disk1:[dir]common')] > > > > > program prog1(input output); > > > > var =A0 =A0common:[common]common_r; > > > > begin > > > > =A0 =A0 common.my_int :=3D 1000; > > > > =A0 =A0 common.my_str :=3D 'Hello'; > > > > end. > > > > > $ pascal/debug/nooptim prog1 > > > > $ link prog1, sys$input/opt > > > > disk1:[dir]common.exe/share > > > > $ run prog1 !step through to end > > > > > [in a different process] > > > > > $ edit prog2.pas > > > > {simple data reader} > > > > [inherit ('disk1:[dir]common')] > > > > > program prog2(input output); > > > > var =A0 =A0common:[common]common_r; > > > > begin > > > > =A0 =A0 writeln('int =3D ', common.my_int); > > > > =A0 =A0 writeln('str =3D ', common.my_str); > > > > end. > > > > > $ pascal/debug/nooptim prog2 > > > > $ link prog2, sys$input/opt > > > > disk1:[dir]common.exe/share > > > > $ run prog2 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0!noting that prog1 is still running in y= our other > > > process > > > > int =3D =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 0 > > > > str =3D > > > Richard, > > > I normally do not respond to comments of this sort, but a > > clarification is in order. As I can read it, none of the posts in this > > thread said "OpenVMS cannot do it". What was said was "In almost all > > cases, this is a dangerous practice". > > > I have NEVER claimed that OpenVMS cannot handle shareable storage, > > merely that in my extensive, 30+ year experience, I have seen far move > > (actually, overwhelmingly more) incorrect implementations of shared > > memory management than I have seen correctly done ones. > > Synchronization errors (e.g., race conditions) are devilish difficult > > to identify and eliminate, and virtually impossible to reproduce on > > demand. Avoiding deadlocks and synchronization starvation in complex > > systems is even more difficult. > > > Even something as simple as setting switch variable can be fraught > > with hazard. Many programmers who first learned to program using COBOL > > (and indeed, those working in COBOL) use strings to store switch > > values. In one of my AST talks (admittedly multithread -- AST and > > regular; not multiprocessor, which is worse) I reminded attendees that > > the MOVC3 and MOVC5 instructions were interruptable, thus could be > > interrupted by a number of events, including AST delivery. The > > "simple" act of setting changing a switch string from "YES" to "NO " > > could give rise to intermediate values of "YO ", "YE ", "NES", "NOS", > > etc.). Nobody in the audience had considered that possibility > > (admittedly several members of Engineering who heard about my example > > found it amusing). The same thing can happen with inadvertantly mis- > > aligned data. At one conference, someone overheard my discussion of > > that hazard and realized that that was the likely reason why his large > > scale simulation system sporadically produced invalid floating point > > values. > > > These problems are exacerbated when the underlying architecture or > > processor is changed, and the timing relationships alter.I have even > > seen situations where a change in the IO configuration caused timing > > issues. > > > My overall recommendation is to proceed with EXTREME care. A LINK, or > > a simple test case is far different than multiple processes doing a > > lot of work at high speed. It is all too easy to jump into shared > > memory as a way to avoid complexity and become mired in a quagmire. > > Since I have not seen Adrian's code base, I do not know if this is a > > highly dynamic global area, or a set of read-only parameters. Even a > > set of shared performance counters can become complex. > > > If the application is something along the lines of a large scale cache > > (e.g., RMS global buffers, a DBMS, a very high performance system) > > than I would consider the option of global storage, after: > > - the fact of the global storage was hidden behind an =A0API (or at > > least a set of macros) > > - a first implementation of the API was done using a resource monitor > > model (a separate process that implemented the data store) > > - the performance issue was severe enough to justify the extensive > > developer time and review to make sure that the implementation was > > valid and reliable. > > > As noted, I had a most entertaining converesation more than a decade > > ago on the implementation of a stock trading message switch where the > > client took exception to not using shared commons (I used DECnet > > logical links, a client subroutine shareable library, and a central > > datalink and server process; in effect a non-privileged device driver/ > > ACP model) to implement data link management. They even wanted me to > > guarantee that if the performance was not adequate, I would > > reimplement things at no charge. > > > I did the implementation on an Alphastation 3000, and the bottleneck > > was somewhere around 10K transactions/minute. I was limited by the > > trace code (using DECterm) and the link to the trading switch. I > > probably could have gone quite a bit further with a little work. The > > beta went into production without any problems. > > > I had a similar experience several years earlier with an application > > that was supposed to support multiple terminals. It was quite a bit > > more cost effective to install the single user image as a shareable > > image than it was to spend man years to work multithreading the > > application. It was also far more resilient. > > > Rule 1: Architect allowing the complex solution, but use a less > > complex solution if at all possible. Context switches between > > processes may be costly, but system crashes in the middle of the day, > > are far costlier. > > > Thus, my comment that if one is in the applications business, one > > should "Tread with care" > > > - Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com Richard, With all due respect, it would appear that my previous posting from October 8 has been misunderstood. My recommendation of EXTREME CAUTION with regards to shared memory is not a OpenVMS-specific recommendation. It is a global recommendation across all operating systems, real-time monitors, and executives [I think that about covers all of the possibilities, if I have omitted some class of systems, I assure everyone that the omission is unintentional]. For extremely high performance and heavily used situations, where the engineering effort is appropriate to the task, I have NEVER said that shared memory techniques (e.g. caches, shared counters) are ipso facto erroneous, just that they are appropriate in certain situations and not in other situations. In OpenVMS, RMS global buffers, and the Oracle caches are certainly appropriate uses, with the engineering effort behind them to hopefully prevent problems. A set of counters being updated at high rates (multi-thousands/second), if properly implemented, is also an appropriate usage. Regrettably, what I have encountered on more than a few occasions is less rigorously done implementations, done because the proper locking was "too complex" or "it seems to work". When these approaches fail, the results are, to put it mildly, spectacular. Unless one quickly realizes what has happened, debugging these is often very time consuming. Frequently, they are the cause of chronic, unexplained failures of applications. As is said, "Been there, done that, have the shirt" [actually, probably several dressers full of them]. As stated in my October 8 post, I more often encounter a belief that a non-shared memory approach is not sufficiently efficient. In my experience, this is virtually never backed by hard data, merely a "from the gut" feeling. As I mentioned previously, I have demonstrated that this belief is misplaced. As a guard against understatement, I generally obscure the precise implementation behind an internal API/ library. The discussion of wait/notify, atomicity, and threading is an involved one, and has many latent issues. I do not have the citation handy, but about a decade ago, a major *NIX player (my recollection is that it may have been Sun's CTO), was quoted as observing that "perhaps events are a better processing model than threads". At that time I wholeheartedly agreed and I remain a believer in the structural advantages of avoiding applications level parallelism unless it is actually needed. I see far more poor implementations than good ones. This is even true on major fielded products in the *IX and Wintel spaces. [Tangentially, keep an eye out for packages that seem to consume all available CPU cycles, even when idle. Such designs are inherently not optimized for efficiency, nor are they likely to be frugal consumers of CPU cycles, and hence power and cooling. Such designs will have to be redone to play correctly in an increasingly "Green" environment.] As for the commercial aspect you alluded to in the response to my post, I do not accept the assertion that I am spreading FUD. I would rather that these difficult to resolve bugs never put in an appearance. Fixing them can be very costly. Indeed, getting the designs correct reduces development time and expense. The "cheaper" approach is far more expensive when problems inevitably occur. While I have, and do, consult on both troubleshooting and development, it makes me far happier to invoice a client for a successful smaller project. As mentioned previously, one project was projected to be six months and several man-years over schedule. It was multi-threaded for the sake of "efficiency". This was proven by the fact that the system was at 100% saturation. With nothing happening. I identified and corrected the reason for CPU saturation, a infinite dispatching loop in the scheduler. With that corrected, usage fell to about 1%. I then installed the application image using INSTALL, and we were able to run as many stations as we wanted, each using a copy of the application. This took days, not months. The code changes were tens of lines, not a total re-write. Obviously, by solving the client's problem, I did not maximize my income. In summary, I am not and never have been against the appropriate use of globally shareable memory. The key word in the preceding sentence is "appropriate". - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 9 Oct 2008 07:46:58 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: media of old VMS versions Message-ID: In article <57e48dc6-ee7a-42dd-abc8-1f2b7da2658c@d10g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, shadoooo writes: > I'm an enthusiast of retrocomputing, especially of big/large machines. > Recently I acquired my first VAX machines, a 4000-100A and a 3100/20 > (no frame buffer). > The 4000 works good (except a problem with the cache, that has to be > disabled) and has VMS 5.5 installed. I managed to reset the system > passwd and to start to learn about. I did a backup of the disk on DAT > tape and found that the licenses installed are good and working, good > thing! Unfortunately I don't have an installation media for thie > version of VMS. I'd get a hobbyist license set, load them on the systems, and cluster them. Set up the 3100 as a satellite so that it network boots off the 4000. If that boots, then the 3100 is having some kind of problem with the disks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 21:16:28 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: MX list revival Message-ID: <00A80DBB.3B04BD1B@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >We have revived the mailing list just send a SUBSCRIBE to >mx-list-request at our domain, HELP for list of >commands I'm getting: Final-Recipient: rfc822;MX-LIST-REQUEST{atsign}KEDNOS{dot}COM Action: failed Status: 5.7.1 (Delivery not authorized, message refused) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:05:49 GMT From: "Tim E. Sneddon" Subject: Re: MX list revival Message-ID: Tim E. Sneddon wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> We have revived the mailing list just send a SUBSCRIBE to >> mx-list-request at our domain, HELP for list of >> commands >> > > There is also a webpage with software downloads, HTML > documentation and archives of the previous MX-List > incarnations on the way. > It's finally up! You can see the MX webpage at: http://www.kednos.com/kednos/Resources/MX Tim. PS. For all those MMK users out there...keep your eyes peeled as there is a new version in the works that offers more MMS compatability. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 2008 20:42:59 +0200 From: Alexander Horn Subject: My Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-80 is back Message-ID: <48ecff33@news.arcor-ip.de> Hallo VMS-Community, I've had miscellaneous security-related issues on my DEC MicroVAX! Now, she's back, especially for VMS-Hobbyists, and with the really nice NEWUSER-Program from Steve Hoff (HoffmanLabs) & DaBeave (Deathrow OpenVMS Cluster): Machine: horse.marway.org System: DEC MicroVAX 3100-80, 50MHz Mariah CPU, 24MB Ram, 1GB Sysdisk, 4.3GB SCSI disc for users... IP: 145.253.97.114 Username: NEWUSER Password: NEWUSER OS: OpenVMS VAX Operating System V7.3 with misc UNIX-like command & tools (tar, unzip/zip, irc/ircdough, vi/vim/vile, lynx, tin, rm, rmdir, mkdir, chown, chgrp, chmod, uname, uptime, who Compilers: Compaq CC V6.4-005, PASCAL 6.8, FORTRAN 77, BASIC Interpreter and Compiler 3.9 But, don't forget: It's a VAXnode for hobbyists. If you're NOT interessted, feel free and go to next article please. :) Now, set your Terminalemulation to VT100, and register or re-register your OpenVMS Account in the Starlet No. 77 Hobbyist-VAXcluster. I hope, you've fun on my MV 3100-80! $ telnet horse.marway.org [...] Username: _ Layla tov', best wishes & Shalom, -Vaxima -- Alexander Horn, Hostmaster (of staff) | OpenVMS (TM) rocks! 10 Bruckner, Sindelfingen 71065 Germany | http://www.marway.org/ eMail: vaxima@marway.org | Trouble with Windows? Reboot! vaxima@vaxima.net | Trouble with UNIX? Be root! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:54:43 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: New LaserJet fun (or upward compatibility? What is that?) Message-ID: In article <48ed22b5$0$9640$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Just a sideline note/question: > > Is this the "PC" mentality that it is OK to go proprietary when it is > Windows, but not OK when it is something else ? You got it. Even more paradoxical is the fact that many of the unix types who moved away from VMS because it is proprietary later moved to Windows. Go figure. > Postscript is the one fully documented and stable and upwards compatible > printing language and has been for decades now. And while it is owned by > Adobe and technically proprietary, the language is fully documented and > easily available in books etc. Indeed. It is also 7-bit printable ASCII. Thus, it is relatively easy to read and write PostScript files. I have some Fortran programs I use for making plots, for example. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:30:10 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: New LaserJet fun (or upward compatibility? What is that?) Message-ID: <00A80CD2.732EF187@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <28938c35-38f6-4258-afb2-3ce828858350@a18g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, sean@obanion.us writes: >On Oct 8, 8:48=A0am, Rich Jordan wrote: >> Just a note if any of you are still spec'ing LaserJet printers for use >> on VMS systems. =A0I'm not aware of any available PCL6 support info or >> libraries on VMS (PCL5 either for that matter, but its easy enough to >> roll your own with that). >> >> We've used PCL (3, then 5) as our primary 'print forms' language for >> 16 years. =A0HP hasn't always made that easy as their backward >> compatibility has been less than stellar, and their penchant for >> producing badly crippled firmware in their low end printers has also >> not helped. =A0Soft fonts were a particular problem over the years as >> certain low end printers refused to load them; these limitations were >> often not documented; we found out 'in use'. >> >> The newest printer we've tried to use is the P2015-N. =A0There is one, >> and only one note, indicating a font limitation: =A045 scalable fonts >> (PCL6), 35 scalable fonts (PS), 11 Scalable fonts plus 11 lineprint >> fonts (PCL5e). >> >I ran into the "no PLC6 documentation" about a year ago in trying to >figure out what the printer reset string was supposed to be. > >As far as I could figure out, if you need to use PCL6, you must use >Windows and it's PCL6 driver. > > >Sean > >> None of the scalable fonts available to PCL5e have proportional >> spacing. =A0This printer has been crippled back to a fixed pitch dumb >> printer for anyone not running a PCL6 driver. =A0It is NOT their bottom >> line stuff; its in the mid-range. =A0And not suitable to our forms >> printing needs. >> >> At the same time, the HP developer website that was supposed to >> provide links to the various PCL5/PCL6 specs and docs has apparently >> been lobotomized. =A0All my searches ended up going to dead pages or to >> the hp.com pages with the PCL5 docs; nothing on PCL6. =A0If anyone knows >> where the PCL6 developer or spec docs are I'd appreciate a heads-up. >> In the meantime these printers are sidelined while we locate some real >> LaserJets that haven't been crippled into PC toys. Greetings Professor Faulken... Weendoze is a strange game! The only winning move is not to play! Send that printer *BACK* to HP with strongly worded message that you need support for something other than the Redmond game console! In the mean time, I will lament the purchase of my d|i|g|i|t|a|l LNCO2 that has been rendered useless by HP without a source of consumables to keep it functioning. If I *DO* ever purchase another printer, it will most certainly NOT be an HP model. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:52:23 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: I have no printer in my hobbyist cluster (VAX and ALPHA, nothing very new). I would like to have one. The minimum would be a printer which would print plain text as well as PostScript. These days, it should also be possible to print a PDF file on it. Another requirement would be the ability for a web browser to print a given page (not sure how this works behind the scenes). Colour would be nice, but I could live with black and white if colour is going to cost me a lot more (in initial costs or in maintenance). I don't care how it is connected up, as long as it can be. (Serial? Parallel? Network?) An added plus would be the ability for non-VMS stuff on the LAN to use it as well (presumably this would imply a network connection). 300 DPI should be enough, but 600 (or even more) would be nice. Can I buy some new printer off the shelf in any old shop? What new HP printers would fit the bill? What used DEC/Compaq/HP printers would fit the bill? To save paper, the ability to print double-sided would be nice. A4 is the only size I need. If anyone has such a printer to give away or sell cheap in Europe, let me know and I'll see if I can come and get it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:59:19 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: <9514e3e1-db25-4642-b07a-1b180a5b163b@u40g2000pru.googlegroups.com> On 8 okt, 19:52, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > I have no printer in my hobbyist cluster (VAX and ALPHA, nothing very > new). =A0I would like to have one. The minimum would be a printer which > would print plain text as well as PostScript. =A0These days, it should > also be possible to print a PDF file on it. =A0Another requirement would > be the ability for a web browser to print a given page (not sure how > this works behind the scenes). =A0Colour would be nice, but I could live > with black and white if colour is going to cost me a lot more (in > initial costs or in maintenance). > > I don't care how it is connected up, as long as it can be. =A0(Serial? = =A0 > Parallel? =A0Network?) =A0An added plus would be the ability for non-VMS > stuff on the LAN to use it as well (presumably this would imply a > network connection). > > 300 DPI should be enough, but 600 (or even more) would be nice. > > Can I buy some new printer off the shelf in any old shop? > > What new HP printers would fit the bill? > > What used DEC/Compaq/HP printers would fit the bill? > > To save paper, the ability to print double-sided would be nice. > > A4 is the only size I need. > > If anyone has such a printer to give away or sell cheap in Europe, let > me know and I'll see if I can come and get it. Phillip, I use an HP1010 laserjet. It prints plain ASCII. The 1010 is connected to a little Linksys printserver. I have never tried pdf, nor ps on it from VMS. Hans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 18:08:52 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > I have no printer in my hobbyist cluster (VAX and ALPHA, nothing very > new). I would like to have one. The minimum would be a printer which > would print plain text as well as PostScript. These days, it should > also be possible to print a PDF file on it. Another requirement would > be the ability for a web browser to print a given page (not sure how > this works behind the scenes). Colour would be nice, but I could live > with black and white if colour is going to cost me a lot more (in > initial costs or in maintenance). > > I don't care how it is connected up, as long as it can be. (Serial? > Parallel? Network?) An added plus would be the ability for non-VMS > stuff on the LAN to use it as well (presumably this would imply a > network connection). > > 300 DPI should be enough, but 600 (or even more) would be nice. > > Can I buy some new printer off the shelf in any old shop? > > What new HP printers would fit the bill? > > What used DEC/Compaq/HP printers would fit the bill? > > To save paper, the ability to print double-sided would be nice. > > A4 is the only size I need. > > If anyone has such a printer to give away or sell cheap in Europe, let > me know and I'll see if I can come and get it. > Now, *many* of your points would be answered by reading some sales material... ;-) I use a HP LaserJet P2015n as noted in a another thread. PCL5, PCL6 and Postscript. It "works". I also have a HP Color Laserjet 2600n on my office LAN, but not setup from my VMS box yet, but I see no reason why that should be any problem. I've used the n-up feature of DCPS to print 2-page pages of COBOL source code on the P2015n, nice... I guess that a printer with a builtin LAN interface is what most would use today. With todays prices on laser printers I see no reason to look for used/old stuff. Newer printers always have nice builtin setup web pages which makes them realy easy to work with. And of course you use a PC browser to do that... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:20:03 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: > Now, *many* of your points would be answered by reading some > sales material... ;-) Perhaps, but even quite old, used printers might be an option for me. Also, "Will it work with VMS?" is a question the sales literature probably doesn't answer. > With todays prices on laser printers I see no reason to > look for used/old stuff. Newer printers always have nice > builtin setup web pages which makes them realy easy to > work with. And of course you use a PC browser to do that... I would use CSWB on an ALPHA! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:57:13 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: In article , Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com writes: > Then to shorten what Jan-Erik was saying, look through > the DCPS documentation for supported printers and get > one of those. OK. > That will address everything you asked for > except the pdf printing (which I think Xpdf would address) Presumably, instead of sending a PDF file directly to the printer (as I could with a PostScript file), Xpdf would first transform it into something else? How would that work? Presumably something better than a bitmap. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:15:57 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article > , > Ken.Fairfield@gmail.com writes: > >> Then to shorten what Jan-Erik was saying, look through >> the DCPS documentation for supported printers and get >> one of those. > > OK. > >> That will address everything you asked for >> except the pdf printing (which I think Xpdf would address) > > Presumably, instead of sending a PDF file directly to the printer (as I > could with a PostScript file), Xpdf would first transform it into > something else? How would that work? Presumably something better than > a bitmap. > Direct printing of PDF files was mentioned here on c.o.v as a possible DCPS addition in some later version (of DCPS). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:03:32 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: <48edf437$0$12389$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> Direct printing of PDF files was mentioned here on c.o.v as a >> possible DCPS addition in some later version (of DCPS). > > So what happens now? What format does it get converted to? PDF is essentially a pre-executed postscript. The original postscript code may have a fancy loop with fancy calculations that draw lines. Generating the PDF involves executing that loop and capturing the actual drawing commands with the calculated coordinates/arguments. So the PDF document is to postcript what RISC is to CISC: a whole bunch more of simple instructions compared to a fancy complex but smaller postscript programme. However, once you have opened, uncompressed and parsed the PDF document, you end up with enssentially postscript commands you can format in text that is a postcript file that can be sent to a printer. (there are .PDF extensions for on-line/interactive use such as adding notes etc, but the PDF->PS converter can simply inop those and not bother translating them). So I assume that DCPS will have a PDF->PS converter and feed the resulting PS to the printer. This is what XPDF does: you open it, print the PDF which generates the postscript from it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:09:29 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >> Or are you talking about printing from a PC ? >> In that case it's converted by the printer driver >> to whatever the actual printer supports, usualy PCL >> or Postscript > > From a PC, Adobe Reader does have the ability to use standard printer > drivers and generate PCL or whatever. Not sure how it does that. The > application probably converts the PDF code into internal representation > of each "object", and then converts it to whatecver for printing using > the printer drivers. We all know that. But was it realy that platform the question was initialy about ? > But on VMS, what we can probably expect... Maybe, but that isn't "now" as the question was about... I'll leave it... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:42:03 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: printer recommendation for hobbyist cluster Message-ID: In article <00A80DAC.9259AB2F@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) writes: > In article , Paul Anderson writes: > >In article <48ee10b7$0$12402$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, > > JF Mezei wrote: > > > >> But on VMS, what we can probably expect is a simple conversion from > >> the embedded simplified postscript into actual postscript code sent > >> to the printer. > >> > >> Perhaps Mr Anderson can chime in and explain what the plans would be. > > > >There are three possibilities, none of which has yet been chosen, nor > >have we committed to adding such capabilities. > > > > 1. Send PDF file unchanged to printers that can print PDF files > > directly. > > > > 2. Put a hook into DCPS such that customers could "roll their own" > > procedure with an application of their choosing (Ghostscript for > > example) to convert PDF to PostScript. > > > > 3. Include a full PDF-to-PostScript translator in DCPS. > > > >The best and most expensive choice is #3. > > Actually, the _best_ choice is "All of the Above." 1 so that if you prefer > printer support you can get it, 2 for maximum flexibility for the user, 3 > for seamless and general support. > > If you did "2", I'd suggest it be as a generalized hook mechanism so that > customers can define data types and converters. (So if you're a TeX shop you > can insert a hook for .dvi that runs dvitops to get PostScript, etc.) Wouldn't CONVERT/DOCUMENT be the best place for this? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:24:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PURGE/RECLAIM and CONVERT Message-ID: <48ef910c$0$12358$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > My mistake. It's the PURGE which will take about 15 hours! After that > I'll do the COMPRESS! CONVERT/RECLAIM (purge) is done implicitely in a rebuild of the file (COMPRESS). So it is a complete waste of time. The main key of the MAIL.MAI file, if I am not mistaken, (can someone confirm) is a time stamp. And this should be an important consideration for managing the file. If you keep only one out of 10 received messages, then you will end up with buckets that contain 1 record and 9 deleted records. the "PURGE" will not reclaim any of those buckets. Say your bucket contains 5 blocks. This means that over the years, you will be retaining old mail records that will occupy 5 blocks each. Doing a rebuild (compress aka convert/fdl) will move all those old records to be next to each other and fill those 5 blocks to capacity, and will thus be using far less paces in the record psace, but also far fewer index entries. The CONVERT/RECLAIM works well in a "queue" situation where all old records are deleted as new records are inserted at the end since the old buckets become empty and made available for new records to be used at the end. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 20:20:58 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Message-ID: <48f1441a$0$12370$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> I lost track of what has been and hasn't been released yet. Has Intel released any CSI (or whatever it name might be this week) based systems yet on either the 8086 or Ia64 architectures ? If so, have any vendors started to assemble such systems and start to market/sell them ? Is this something that is coming real soon now, or have there been delays that put this well into next year ? During a presentation 2 years ago, an HP guy had said that HP might not adopt CSI for its IA64 based systems since it has its own proprietary chips. Does anyone know if this is still true ? Or will HP adopt the CSI for both 8086 and IA64 systems ? At the motherboard level, would components such as those used to build "blades" have to be changed to interface betwen the blade system architecture and the motherboard's CSI interface ? Or are those connected at a higher level or abstraction and not affected by CSI ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 01:55:39 -0700 (PDT) From: IanMiller Subject: Re: Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Message-ID: On Oct 13, 7:59=A0am, johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On Oct 13, 5:30 am, JF Mezei wrote: > > > > > IanMiller wrote: > > > I leave as an exercise to the reader to search hp.com for quickpath > > > and Nehalem and tukwila. > > > I searched Tukwila quickpath. It gave me 9 results. The most likely > > document (a roadmap) was a neat Intel marketing garbage devoid of > > specific information. > > > You have obvioulsy way overestimated my capabilities if you thought I > > could easily find the results from an HP.COM search. > > > > According to the VMS public roadmap VMS V8.4 will run on Tukwila > > > Woopty doo.VMS roadmap is not a document where I would expect details o= n > > HP's hardware and whether HP's own use of Tukwila will also involve > > Quickpath or if it will have some HP proprietary chipset as I had been > > lead to believe before. > > This week's name has been Quickpath for a while now but CSI is > shorter. > > I'm not 100% sure I'm up to date either, but if I recall correctly, > CSI-based systems require Nehalem (x86-64) or Tukwila (IA64) chips. > And if I recall correctly from coverage of Intel Developer Forum from > August this year, =A0both of them are late by months or even a year or > more. Nehalem was then said to be shipping in Q4 2008, and Tukwila in > early 2009; this may have changed, correction welcome. > > If those timescales are accurate, they presumably mean that Those In > The Know already have access to early chips, boards, and are maybe > even playing with systems, but nobody will really know when they'll > hit the market for real, and any pre-release information which is > floating around (be it HP or anyone else) will likely either be > covered by NDA and subject to change, or be content-free. Examples to > the contrary most welcome. > > I don't recall seeing any worthwhile pre-publicity for *systems* based > around either x86 or IA64 variants of CSI. > > Realistically, what does CSI buy anyone anyway that HyperTransport > hasn't offered for years (and before that there was its close relative > the EV7 bus...). Access to nicely-interconnectable chips from Intel as > well as different and electronically incompatible chips from AMD, I > suppose? > > One other thing I imagine CSI will do *if* it succeeds is make life > even harder for the relatively high-cost low-return IA64-specific > sections of Intel and HP; why continue to duplicate two sets of > engineering effort, one for x86-64 and one for electronically- > compatible near-identical kit with IA64? When the consolidation does > happen, maybe we'll eventually see a CSI-based Proliant-class system > and there'll be a second chance for IA64 to have a go in the Proliant- > class market (the first attempt was in 2003), without the IA64- > specifics making those systems cost a relative fortune to design and > build as they did back then. Then what happens with entry-level VMS > systems? > > Incidentally, speaking of costs of Itanium, elsewhere I've recently > seen it written that Itanium has brought down the cost of high quality > servers. I'm not sure about that myself. For most purposes an entry or > mid-range Itanium (the "volume market" ones) offers no features I can > see that a suitable Proliant hasn't offered for years, with Proliants > at a very realistic price (just ask the many people whose businesses > depend on them). Except Proliants don't do VMS, you need IA64 if you > want to buy a VMS box today. > > Equally, other than the CPU cost, there's been no need for any huge > difference in the bill of materials cost between an Alpha and an x86 > box since the days of the PWS family (or before that, the AlphaStation > 400 and its PC equivalent whose name I forget). Any difference in the > price these technically-similar boxes sold at was down to things other > than the cost to manufacture (ie it's a political decision), and thus > any difference in today's cost of a VMS box vs the cost a few years > ago is also a political not technical effect, not necessarily to do > with the box having "Itanium Inside" rather than "Alpha Instead", more > to do with things going on in the market in general. Maybe CSI will > change that too, but when EV6 had the same interconnect as AMD64 > Hammer, did it help EV6 conquer the world, or not? EV7 and LDT/ > Hypertransport? Soon, Itanium and CSI? > > If CSI does catch on for both x86-64 and IA64, there'll be some > interesting questions to answer (again) about whether VMS still needs > VMS-specific system hardware, and that will inevitably lead right back > to why it needs a VMS-specific CPU architecture... VMS running on VAX, > Alpha, Itanium, Charon, SIMH and maybe others not so well known say > that the CPU architecture isn't a showstopper, politics is. VMS does not need VMS specific hardware - the current Itanium systems run VMS or Unix or windows on the same hardware/firmware. It seems - There are a smaller range of configurations which are qualified for VMS. HP have said there will be increasing amounts of common hardware between the x86 (IA32) systems and the Itanium systems and this will result in cheaper Itanium systems. VMS now runs on the cheapest hardware it ever has run on and I expect it to get cheaper. Is it cheap enough? - I don't know - perhaps not. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:52:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Status of Intel's Common System Interconnect ? Message-ID: <033edf87$0$2136$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I'm not 100% sure I'm up to date either, but if I recall correctly, > CSI-based systems require Nehalem (x86-64) or Tukwila (IA64) chips. The question is whether Tukwila requires CSI or whether HP can have have its own proprietary chipset. As I recall, HP has had its own chipset for a while. (then again, if they shipped all their chip designers to Intel, perhaps they don't have that capability anymore). > floating around (be it HP or anyone else) will likely either be > covered by NDA and subject to change, or be content-free. Examples to > the contrary most welcome. Ok, so the answer to my question should have been "the information has not been made public yet" instead of "any 9 year old could look it up by searching X and Y on the HP.com web site". > Realistically, what does CSI buy anyone anyway that HyperTransport > hasn't offered for years (and before that there was its close relative > the EV7 bus...). AMD may now lag intel in raw CPU horsepower, but they still have hypertransport advantage. With CSI, Intel catches up on that aspect of system performance. And it will allow the 8086 to scale to much larger systems. > For most purposes an entry or > mid-range Itanium (the "volume market" ones) offers no features I can > see that a suitable Proliant hasn't offered for years, Do 8086 based servers have the equivalent of the management console card that gives telnet/terminal access to the system firmware prompts ? Also, HP's 8086 servers are BIOS based. You would need to buy an Apple server to get an EFI console. > If CSI does catch on for both x86-64 and IA64, I don't think there is a neeed for "IF" in there. The market will consume whatever Intel produces for the 8086. CSI should propagate down the chain of systems and eventually reach laptops. (for intel based machines, of course) > interesting questions to answer (again) about whether VMS still needs > VMS-specific system hardware, and that will inevitably lead right back > to why it needs a VMS-specific CPU architecture... These questions are no longer relevant. As long as HP refuses to discuss porting VMS beyond IA64, the assumption is that VMS dies with IA64, just like MPE and Tru64 died when their platform stopped being developped. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:25:14 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kari_Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: Using an Infoserver Message-ID: <48ee5a9b$0$23607$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > OK, enough OT and No-Marketing posts. Let's get back to some tech talk. :-) > > I have an Infoserver. I have never used one before. So, now is a good time. > What can I do with an Infoserver (other than boot VMS systems)? I thought > it would share devices among multiple machines. Correct? What protocol > does it use? Is it likely that I could share devices with my PDP-11's? > Or, even more interesting possibility, can I boot a PDP-11 from an Infoserver? > > The long NEPA winter is coming and I need to get some projects ready to > occupy my time. I think some VMS related projects might be fun and maybe > even of value to people here. > > bill > Here's some links to information about Infoservers and their features and protocols: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/6017/6017pro_097.html http://h30266.www3.hp.com/masterindex/spd/spd_004ee544.txt Regards, Kari ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:44:29 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Using an Infoserver Message-ID: In article <6l70mcFau26sU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > OK, enough OT and No-Marketing posts. Let's get back to some tech talk. :-) > > I have an Infoserver. I have never used one before. So, now is a good time. > What can I do with an Infoserver (other than boot VMS systems)? I used to use one to serve up hard disks. I later bound these into a volume set. It can be used to serve up partitions as well. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:31:15 -0400 From: "Bart Z. Lederman" Subject: Re: VMS news reader Message-ID: I've tried a number of news readers on OpenVMS. For groups where you want to retrieve all new articles on a regular basis and would like to automate the process, NEWSRDR is the best I've found. It can be set up to run in a BATCH job that can be self-resubmitting. For on-line reading, I liked MXRN the best when I had DECwindows / Xwindows available. It's the easiest reader to use that I've seen, and has quite a few good features. It doesn't always handle extracting binary encoded files very well, though. If you come from the Unix / Linux world, there is a port of slrn that runs on OpenVMS. I've used it, and it works reasonably well. I find the user interface to be rather peculiar and non-intuitive, but that might be because my background is more VMS than Unix. It does work, and can be made to do some good things. It's also supposed to be possible to mark articles you're interested in, and automate the downloading of them at a later time, but I never put in much effort to see if that works. I've used Netscape/Mozilla to read news, and it's comperable to MXRN, but I found MXRN to be much easier to use, and easier to set up and edit the KILL files than Mozilla. The final decision will probably be which user interface you like the most. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:19:29 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS news reader Message-ID: <48ed4f4d$0$1556$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> H Vlems wrote: > My choice is rather based on familiarity with the VMS platform. I > found NEWSRDR on the freeware 6 cd so decided > to install that. However I can't seem to get it started though. > Where do I find MXRN? Tried to install MXRN once but couldn't get it to work. It was having problems insisting on reading the huge list of newsgroups provided by my NNTP server (probably originally designed to read just a smaller list of newsgroups supported by a local server). I tried to modify the source code to avoid it going through that step (I already had the lists, so there was no point trying to read it again) but to no avail. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.555 ************************