INFO-VAX Sun, 05 Oct 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 538 Contents: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Re: WRITEV does not work ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 10:07:12 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > > I support VMS systems at two pretty large companies, two out of 400000 is not very significant. > and I've never seen that need. Maybe the need follows the availability. If people know the vendor refuses to sell, they will not ask for it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 18:42:35 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Elvis is dead - get over it! Message-ID: Hi Jan-Erik, You wrote: - > A web/http *server* is a logical part of any "server" platform today. And JF wrote: - > And web serving is now an important part > of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients > from the server. Strange bed-fellows indeed :-) but let me hastily add my voice to the chorus; web-servers are important! But then, presumably, if you believe people need to access *your* VMS webservers then surely it is only natural that you may have the odd fleeting desire to access *their* web servers as well? Yahoo? Google? Govt? If so, please tell me how you intend to do this? I have been here and in ITRC and anywhere else trying to drum up support for a XHR$ RTL a la mode de Ajax so that VMS 3GL clients may have at least some hope of contacting the plethora of RESTful servers on the internet; but to no avail :-( Hoff and Schweda say it's easy-peasy and JF says GTK is far more exciting, yet a bunch of hypocritcal bastards keep telling me that web-servers are important yet only for one way communication? SOAP headers on AJAX why not? Cheers Richard Maher PS. How much billable time has already been clocked up to gSOAP? Do those poor unsuspecting customers know how many "billable" hours they're paying for that are really going down to gSOAP? "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:ejHFk.3036$U5.13563@newsb.telia.net... > JF Mezei wrote: > > > What if you have an important remaining customer who has stated that > > they require GTK and some other middleware ? > > Does this have anything with reality to do ? > Or was it just something dreamed up ? > > I support VMS systems at two pretty large companies, and > I've never seen that need. > > Of course Richard is correct in that VMS is dead and has > been dead on the desktop for the last 10 years at least. > Trying to get (back?) to the desktop *now* is totaly wasted. > > > Porting a browser is the > > perfect project to not only port that middleware to VMS, but also to > > test it by compiling a browser with it before you hand it over to the > > customer. > > That might be correct in a way, but why not do it on some > usable software ? > > > Just because YOU don't see a need for that software doesn't mean that > > there isn't a business need for it. > > There just isn't, no matter what Righard or anyone else says. > > > > Funny, HP has the proprietary port of Apache for VMS, there is the OSU > > web server as well as WASD. I believe that even IBM has some web serving > > middleware available on VMS. And web serving is now an important part > > of a server since it is used a lot to distribute information to clients > > from the server. > > A web/http *server* is a logical part of any "server" platform today. > Bot not a browsers which this was all about... > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 10:40:28 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > > JF Mezai wrote : > > > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for > > an OS to survive today. > > You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most > successfull OS'es today. Times they are a changing ... About 20 years ago you would have been burnt on the stake for that statement (or prediction). At that time, VMSlings kept telling me how MVS (that's what z/OS was called back then) sucks and how it would go away soon, together with mainframes and IBM altogether. And that I should get one of those cool VAXstations running VMS desktop instead. Gives me a good laugh in hindsight. > Does it have a browser ? Or any > other "desktop" tools ? z/OS (or MVS) is a lot older than VMS and Unix and does not quite play in the same ballpark. By its very nature it never was a great "graphics" OS. Although in the 1980s people used it e.g. for stuff like CATIA together with expensive graphics peripherals, due to its horsepower. These apps went away quickly when the RS/6000 came to market. So you won't expect a browser on MVS anyway, although it got a C compiler, TCP/IP and X11 client around 1991. BTW, it's native "GUI" (sort of) is called ISPF (works similar as "curses" based apps elsewhere), and it is still part of the system, AFAIK. As for the economics side, yes, IBM still makes significant money with that segment, but this is probably due to the fact, that there's almost no competition anymore. Nevertheless, revenues are ever shrinking, not as fast as VMS's, though. And z/OS shares a severe problem with VMS: biological age of its experts. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:51:21 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: Michael Kraemer wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: >> >> JF Mezai wrote : >> >> > Providing basic/core desktop functionality is necessary for >> > an OS to survive today. >> >> You meen like z/OS ? Probably one of the (economicaly) most >> successfull OS'es today. > > Times they are a changing ... > About 20 years ago you would have been burnt on the stake > for that statement (or prediction). > At that time, VMSlings kept telling me how MVS > (that's what z/OS was called back then) sucks > and how it would go away soon, together with > mainframes and IBM altogether. > And that I should get one of those cool > VAXstations running VMS desktop instead. > Gives me a good laugh in hindsight. > >> Does it have a browser ? Or any >> other "desktop" tools ? > > z/OS (or MVS) is a lot older than VMS and Unix > and does not quite play in the same ballpark. > By its very nature it never was a great > "graphics" OS. > Although in the 1980s people > used it e.g. for stuff like CATIA together with > expensive graphics peripherals, due to its horsepower. > These apps went away quickly when the RS/6000 came to market. > So you won't expect a browser on MVS anyway, > although it got a C compiler, TCP/IP and X11 client around 1991. > BTW, it's native "GUI" (sort of) is called ISPF > (works similar as "curses" based apps elsewhere), > and it is still part of the system, AFAIK. Sure is. I've done a lot of development on MVS since 20+ years back. The last assignments was with CWS (CICS Web Server) writing CGI server applications (COBOL) with DB/2 database backend. All running under CICS/MVS. And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything graphical. My point was that all this have been done using 3270 emulators running on the "main desktop OS" for ages. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 11:21:23 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb: > > Sure is. I've done a lot of development on MVS since 20+ years > back. The last assignments was with CWS (CICS Web Server) writing > CGI server applications (COBOL) with DB/2 database backend. All > running under CICS/MVS. > > And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything > graphical. Well, it's a UI going far beyond a plain command line. At its time, i.e. before X was invented, it was quite remarkable for what you can do with 24x80 character screens, comprising fileing, editing, developing, mailing, sort of an integrated desktop like CDE. > My point was that all this have been done using 3270 emulators > running on the "main desktop OS" for ages. But one never expected anything more than JCL processing and 3270 screens. So there was no loss by replacing the bulky 3270 monitor by, say, a shiny new RS/6000 or a perfectly quiet X-terminal running x3270 terminal emulation windows. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 05:33:49 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New browser for OpenVMS in field test, Itanium only so far Message-ID: <48e88b22$0$1554$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Michael Kraemer wrote: >> And ISPF is more of a Charachter User Interface then anything >> graphical. > > Well, it's a UI going far beyond a plain command line. > At its time, i.e. before X was invented, it was quite > remarkable for what you can do with 24x80 character screens, > comprising fileing, editing, developing, mailing, > sort of an integrated desktop like CDE. You've obviously never used ALL-IN-1. ALL-IN-1 was far more powerful than SPF/ISPF but both were at roughlt the same level of character cell menus. And I don't recall SPF having email. It may have been added later on though. Both offerend a extensive "shell" and scripting language to design menus and manage forms. But A1 was more powerful. SPF did come out a few years before All-In-1. One of the acronyms for SPF was "System Productivity Facility". I think there was another one before. And I can't remember what the meaning became when they added the "I". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 07:32:02 -0400 From: Bob Willard Subject: Re: OT: USA the fleecing of USA banks by Wall Street Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> >>> AEF wrote: >> >> >>>> But while describing all the bad things that >>>> homeowners did she adds the following parenthetical remark: "Those who >>>> were lied to by bookers about the reset rates on adjustable-rate >>>> mortgages and other elements of their loans are in a different >>>> category." >>> >>> >>> Those people appear, to me, to have failed to read and understand >>> what they agreed to. It does not matter, legally, what they were told. >> >> >> Well, at least in Sweden, it does matter *a lot* what your >> bankman actual *told* you ! There has been quite a few cases >> where peoples has got their right against some bank that >> had talked them into some business. >> > > In the U.S. a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on! > Honest men generally do as they have promised but if matters get to > court, it's the written agreement that counts, not what the parties > agreed to verbally. Not quite true. Verbal agreements are enforceable in court. In practice, of course, it is frequently difficult to supply evidence of a verbal agreement, unless there is a credible (unbiased) witness or a recording. It is true that a verbal modification to a written agreement will be ignored by the court; i.e., the court will only recognize the base written document. -- Cheers, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 10:28:44 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: WRITEV does not work Message-ID: <48e8cf18$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Tom Linden wrote: > On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:44:50 -0700, Arne Vajhĝj wrote: >> C sprintf is one of the more well known. > > You mean better than PUT STRING? I am pretty sure that C syntax are known by more people than PL/I syntax. :-) or :-( depending on preferences ... ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.538 ************************