INFO-VAX Sat, 10 May 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 260 Contents: Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Re: Don't complain about your billing rates just yet Re: Encompass - Endeavour Re: Encompass - Endeavour Re: Encompass - Endeavour Re: Encompass - Endeavour Re: Encompass - Endeavour Re: Encompass - Endeavour Example: Flex/HTML client to VMS 3GL server Re: How to calculate number of files on a disk Protect yourself against Operation Sudden Fall Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS The worst things in life are free! (Was: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/program Re: What systems can use USB? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 22:34:53 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: /DENSITY=what? for Ultrium tapes on 8.3 Alpha? Message-ID: <00A79572.B0ADC6A8@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >> In article <4823ADDB.493A3625@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >>> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >>>> VMSers -- >>>> >>>> Just got an MSL4048, which has Ultrium LTO4 (1.6 tb per cartridge) drives. >>>> If I init a tape, should I just let it sit at default density? None of the >>>> options in help init/density look really good - SDLT320 is the highest. Would >>>> that match? >>>> >>>> VMS 8.3 on Alpha, 8.31h1 on Itanium. >>> Do LTOs do multiple densities like the later TZ8xes did? >>> >>> ...or are they like the newer (S)DLT drives: write native, read(-only) >>> previous? (That is, a SDLT-320 drive will read/write SDLT-320, but will >>> only read SDLT-220, not write it.) >>> >>> My suggestions would be to leave /DENSITY out (use the default selected >>> by the drive for the media) and choose between whether or not to use >>> /MEDIA=COMPACT. >>> >>> My $0.02... >> >> That was what I decided to go with, at least until I got a response. >> >> Seem to have completed a backup with that, so I think it's okay. >> >> -- Alan > >Can you read the tape? If you have not tested your ability to restore a >backup, what is your backup worth? Yes, I can. (BACKUP/LIST whizzes past too fast to read; it's pretty cool.) Thanks for asking! -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:59:05 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <5367fe07-0c47-4b85-9b7d-a35e67602f30@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Paul writes: >> All, >> >> I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 >> (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. >> Can anyone suggest anything? >> >> Many thanks, >> >> P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company >> will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". > > Please inform your company that those serial interfaces and the > equipment at the other end of them are "end of life". > Probably not. There are a *lot* of equipment that still interfaces using serial links. I support an environment with *many* term-servers. 100's of LTA and TNA devices interfaces to barcode readers, label printers, PLC's, modems, and a heap of other equipment. Even a number of work-shop floor VT-terminals... Lantronix seems to be the prefered term-server. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 16:22:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <4824b332$0$7261$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> General question: With VMS, one can define an LTAxxx: device that allows outgoing connections to a terminal server's port. Essentially giving that VMS box access to serial ports. This comes out of the box with VMS. Would it be correct to state that in the Unix world, there is no built-in facility for such virtualised serial ports and that one needs to buy some separate package that will provide outbound serial port access via a terminal server ? (I assume reverse telnet). Is there a strong RFC/standard on how virtual serial ports work between a host and the terminal server, or do each terminal servers have their own software/protocol to link a unix host with their terminal servers ? ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 16:54:47 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: In article <4824b332$0$7261$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > General question: > > With VMS, one can define an LTAxxx: device that allows outgoing > connections to a terminal server's port. Essentially giving that VMS box > access to serial ports. This comes out of the box with VMS. > > Would it be correct to state that in the Unix world, there is no > built-in facility for such virtualised serial ports and that one needs > to buy some separate package that will provide outbound serial port > access via a terminal server ? (I assume reverse telnet). A lot of terminal servers support reverse telnet. But I can't recall any common UNIX capability for accessing it. Yep, I think for UNIX in general you may need an additional product. I suspect you might find something on a particular vendor's UNIX. (UNIX is the portable operating system that's different on every platform.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 22:30:10 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: DECServer 700 replacement. Message-ID: <482516C2.DB0DAFEF@spam.comcast.net> Paul wrote: > > All, > > I am looking for a modern day equivalent product to the Decserver 700 > (16 or 32 port) that is still being produced. > Can anyone suggest anything? > > Many thanks, > > P.S. Please dont suggest suppliers for DECServer 700's, my company > will not purchase them as they are deemed "end of life". According to the current vendor of DECserver-700 series devices, they seem to be a current, in-production manufactured item. Your "company" should probably re-think that "end-of-life" stuff... David J Dachtera (formerly dba) DJE Systems ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 22:46:46 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Don't complain about your billing rates just yet Message-ID: <8660a3a10805091946w4aca602dgc5958f0b9afa5851@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:59 AM, yyyc186 wrote: > On May 3, 9:27 pm, moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: >> >> It might be part of a scam to get foreign workers to the US to work at >> low pay. They can't just go to the INS/ICE and ask for a bunch of visas >> for people from, for example, India. They have to "prove" that there are >> not enough people in the US with those skills so they have to bring in >> foreign workers. So they advertize the positions for low pay, nobody >> here is willing to take them, and they go to the INS saying "See? We >> tried to fill these positions but we can't. Could you please let us >> bring in some people from India with those skills? >> >> Maybe. > > Oh, they intend to fill it with H1-B, but they went too far. They > advertised a billing rate below the department of labor's national > average entry level salary. As soon as they put an H1-B working into > that spot it is a federal crime. The posting of the position is a > blatant advertisement of intent to commit a federal crime. > > There are fourteen people on my VMS team. We don't even LOOK at anybody with less than ten years of experience, and that puts nearly all of the H1Bs out of the picture.. WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 16:13:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: <4824b117$0$7308$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably > the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix. > It wasn't just VMS. Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS. Yes, it had DEC-Unix/Ultrix, but most Unix people went to Unix gatherings because this is where there was the critical mass to make such gatherings worthwhile. Similarly, VMS people went to DECUS gatherings because this si where there was the critical mass to make those meetings worthwhile. > The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with > thousands of people at them. The idea of having a group for VMS and a > group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for > Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging > and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not > survive out on its own anyway. Having a user group that does everything will make that user group irrelevant because it won't be good enough in any one area to make it worthwhile. This is why DECUS didn't do well with Unix or with PCs. > in the pages on the HP website. That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche > products. You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that, Oh, that is a good one. Of course Digital and Compaq and HP are to blame for that. They are the ones who decided to not make VMS compete and price it our of the market. Palmer is the one who started the "VMS has no future, lets cannabalise it" trend. Now, if what is left of the worldwide VMS customer base is so small that it can't warrant its own user group, then so be it and let a little subdivision tag along with Interex (or whatever its name is this week). But i would rather have a single worldwide DECUS usergroup, rather than a total cacophony of structures around the world that make each entity too small to survive, especially if one entity (the USA) makes decisions without consulting the rest of the world. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 16:36:10 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00712CFD85257444_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" JF Mezei wrote on 05/09/2008 04:13:55 PM: > etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably > > the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix. > > It wasn't just VMS. > > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS. Phooey! I was at many a DECUS and the THE Sig was active, the PC Sig was active, there was a Sig for the Lab OS, for Unix, for PDP's, for DTR, for L&T, for RSTS, for 3rd party s/w, and the VAX Sig came along later and got a large share of attendees because of the value in the product-set, but the other Sigs (I did not mention them all because of short memory) were there and not dead. > Yes, it had DEC-Unix/Ultrix, but > most Unix people went to Unix gatherings because this is where there was > the critical mass to make such gatherings worthwhile. Similarly, VMS > people went to DECUS gatherings because this si where there was the > critical mass to make those meetings worthwhile. > > > The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with > > thousands of people at them. The idea of having a group for VMS and a > > group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for > > Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging > > and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not > > survive out on its own anyway. > > > Having a user group that does everything will make that user group > irrelevant because it won't be good enough in any one area to make it > worthwhile. This is why DECUS didn't do well with Unix or with PCs. > > > > in the pages on the HP website. That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche > > products. You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that, > > Oh, that is a good one. Of course Digital and Compaq and HP are to blame > for that. They are the ones who decided to not make VMS compete and > price it our of the market. Palmer is the one who started the "VMS has > no future, lets cannabalise it" trend. > > > > Now, if what is left of the worldwide VMS customer base is so small that > it can't warrant its own user group, then so be it and let a little > subdivision tag along with Interex (or whatever its name is this week). > > But i would rather have a single worldwide DECUS usergroup, rather than > a total cacophony of structures around the world that make each entity > too small to survive, especially if one entity (the USA) makes decisions > without consulting the rest of the world. --=_alternative 00712CFD85257444_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"



JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote on 05/09/2008 04:13:55 PM:

> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
> > DECUS worked with more than just VMS in the UK and that was probably
> > the case in other areas too - Digital had Windows, Digital had Unix.
> > It wasn't just VMS.
>
> Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS.


Phooey!  I was at many a DECUS and the THE Sig was active, the PC Sig was
active, there was a Sig for the Lab OS, for Unix, for PDP's, for DTR, for
L&T, for RSTS, for 3rd party s/w, and the VAX Sig came along later and got
a large share of attendees because of the value in the product-set, but
the other Sigs (I did not mention them all because of short memory) were
there and not dead.  

>                                         Yes, it had DEC-Unix/Ultrix, but
> most Unix people went to Unix gatherings because this is where there was
> the critical mass to make such gatherings worthwhile. Similarly, VMS
> people went to DECUS gatherings because this si where there was the
> critical mass to make those meetings worthwhile.
>
> > The world has changed since the days of huge DECUS meetings with
> > thousands of people at them.  The idea of having a group for VMS and a
> > group for Windows and a group for Linux and one for HP-UX and one for
> > Non-Stop is a) not going to achieve the target of integration/merging
> > and b) going to make each one sufficiently small that it may not
> > survive out on its own anyway.
>
>
> Having a user group that does everything will make that user group
> irrelevant because it won't be good enough in any one area to make it
> worthwhile. This is why DECUS didn't do well with Unix or with PCs.
>
>
> > in the pages on the HP website.  That said, Non-Stop and VMS are niche
> > products.  You can't blame Digital or Compaq for that,
>
> Oh, that is a good one. Of course Digital and Compaq and HP are to blame
> for that. They are the ones who decided to not make VMS compete and
> price it our of the market. Palmer is the one who started the "VMS has
> no future, lets cannabalise it" trend.
>
>
>
> Now, if what is left of the worldwide VMS customer base is so small that
> it can't warrant its own user group, then so be it and let a little
> subdivision tag along with Interex (or whatever its name is this week).
>
> But i would rather have a single worldwide DECUS usergroup, rather than
> a total cacophony of structures around the world that make each entity
> too small to survive, especially if one entity (the USA) makes decisions
> without consulting the rest of the world.
--=_alternative 00712CFD85257444_=-- ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 16:56:18 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: In article <4824b117$0$7308$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS. Try telling that to the RSX SIG, the Large Systems SIG, the Networks SIG, the Hardware SIG, ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: <29054881-964a-45c0-8f5a-ebf72427fa55@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On May 9, 3:13=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Lets not kid ourselves, DECUS was VMS. Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more than VMS. Much more. Dave... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:39:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: <4824c50f$0$12270$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> DaveG wrote: > Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the > years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more > than VMS. Much more. The portions of DECUS that were not VMS existed because there was nowhereelse for users to go. The PDP11 related software had a place within DECUS and there was nowhere else to go. But just because it existed within DECUS didn't mean that (at least since the late 1980s), DECUS wasn't focused mostly on VMS since this is where the largest number of members came from (and came FOR). People expected the majority of sessions at DECUS symposia to be VMS related. So now, VMS will be to Interex (or whatever its name is this week) what RSX/RSTS was to DECUS in the late 1980s. Just a small SIG to support a non key product that is for all practical purposes dead. (some would call this a "niche product"). Sue's Bootcamop has become the pre-eminent VMS worldwide annual event. Don't expect that Interex (or whatever its name is this week) will have a significant VMS content in its conferences/symposia. If you're a VMS guy without interest in HP-UX, will you really be able to justify going to the Interex (or whatever its name is this week) conference with only one VMS session per day ? (or whatever token number they'll have) ? Since the name/structure change appear to be a USA only issue, this will further confuse matters from a world wide user group perspective. And this makes Sue's Bootcamp ever more appealing because it is a single worldwide event with high quality VMS content, and focused on VMS. If you're still involved in VMS, this is where you get the most payback for the invested money. I'd venture to say that DECUS (or whatever name it might have this week) is dead. This is partly due to *HOW* DECUS was switched to "Encompass" in the USA without much coordination from aroune the world. Instead of regrouping into a single worldwide organisation to have more weight/impact, the user group formerly known as DECUS broke apart into a gazillion small pieces, none of which big enough to be relevant. It si Sue that rescued the spirit of DECUS by starting the Bootcamp. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 22:27:04 GMT From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) Subject: Re: Encompass - Endeavour Message-ID: <00A79571.98F04A82@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> In article <4824c50f$0$12270$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >DaveG wrote: > >> Good guess, but incorrect. Having attended about 20 symposia over the >> years and also a LUG chair for over 30, I can say that DECUS was more >> than VMS. Much more. > >The portions of DECUS that were not VMS existed because there was >nowhereelse for users to go. The PDP11 related software had a place >within DECUS and there was nowhere else to go. But just because it >existed within DECUS didn't mean that (at least since the late 1980s), >DECUS wasn't focused mostly on VMS since this is where the largest >number of members came from (and came FOR). > >People expected the majority of sessions at DECUS symposia to be VMS >related. > > >So now, VMS will be to Interex (or whatever its name is this week) what >RSX/RSTS was to DECUS in the late 1980s. Just a small SIG to support a >non key product that is for all practical purposes dead. (some would >call this a "niche product"). > > >Sue's Bootcamop has become the pre-eminent VMS worldwide annual event. >Don't expect that Interex (or whatever its name is this week) will have >a significant VMS content in its conferences/symposia. > >If you're a VMS guy without interest in HP-UX, will you really be able >to justify going to the Interex (or whatever its name is this week) >conference with only one VMS session per day ? (or whatever token number >they'll have) ? > If the HP Tech Forum continues as it has been, there's an adequate supply of interesting material - VMS-specific and OS-agnostic (like storage sessions) - to make it worth going. I wish I could go to the Boot Camp as well, but the scheduling of that is inconvenient. I see no reason to think that VMS content at the Tech Forum will drop for the reason that the user organizations have merged. (It may drop because the market for VMS sessions dropped - and since you have to register for sessions, they know what the interest level for sessions are.) -- Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 05:59:51 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Example: Flex/HTML client to VMS 3GL server Message-ID: Hi, If you'd like to see an example of a browser-based Flex/HTML/Javascript GUI client talking to a VMS 3GL server, please click on: - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/demo_client_flex.html and have a gander. Username: TIER3_DEMO Password: QUEUE You *must* be running: - . The *latest* version of Adobe's Flash Player (Adobe and FlexBuilder generate the code for version checking and auto-download but I left it out of the example for brevity) . JVM 1.4-2 or later (Java 6 has been out for over a year; what's wrong with ya :-) . If you are behind a firewall that disables outgoing connections then you must open up to destination port 5255. . You must have Javascript and Applets enabled for your browser . Apart from that I've tested it with IE6/7 and Firefox and others have it working on Safari and Opera Now, sadly, I was unable to obtain any sort of Rdb Hobbyists license for the Deathrow Cluster so I've had to provide a fudge in that the data is hard-coded in DEMO_UARS.COB :-( But if you want to see what the Rdb code on our machines looks like then peruse: - http://manson.vistech.net/t3$examples/ For all of the source code: - Server: - demo_flex.cob (Cobol server code) build_flex_demo.com (Creates the UAR shareable) demo_flex_sql.sqlmod (SQL you guessed it) Client: - demo_client_flex.html } employee_lookup.html } All the Application-specific html avoidpatent.js } bridgetest.mxml } The Flex driving logic (I can't believe it's that small!) Those who are familiar with demo_client_web.html are already familiar with the example Java classes and CornuCopiae.html. NB: *NO* new Java was created for the new application! Code reuse and modularity set to maximum! Cheers Richard Maher ps. If you'd like to see this on HP's TestDrive Cluster *with* Rdb then tell me (or better still tell your HP rep!) Maybe it's just me, but surely you'd be forgiven for wondering why Oracle/Rdb or HP/VMS would not seize on this opportunity to promote and support their wares? pps. If you haven't worked it out yet :-) hover over the pie charts and click for data drill-down. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 15:31:00 -0500 From: "Lee K. Gleason" Subject: Re: How to calculate number of files on a disk Message-ID: "Bob Koehler" wrote in message news:rAPCDs2gP637@eisner.encompasserve.org... > In article <8bc540b0-5e7c-4853-9ada-6e255430a87a@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > > I was wondering if, due to caching, could the bitmap be out of date? > > > > The bitmap on the platters is always out of date when the disk is mounted > unless /nowrite was used in the mount (or hardware write lock is used). > > The bitmap will show allocated blocks that are actually preallocated > (in the cache for future use). The bitmap is corrected on proper > dismount, mount without /norebuild, or an explicit set volume/rebuild. > > So you don't have to worry about blocks in use that are marked free, > but if you need a rebuild and haven't done it yet there are blocks > marked used that aren't in use. It's been a while since I read the fiche on this, but back when I was writing utilities to read & modify the Files-11 disk metadata files, opening them for write caused them to flush their contents to disk. Don't know if this is true past V4.4...it's been a while. Naturally, if you open them for write, you have to Be Careful. -- Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR Control-G Consultants lee.gleason@comcast.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 May 2008 21:43:20 GMT From: Roxanne.Millward@dea.gov Subject: Protect yourself against Operation Sudden Fall Message-ID: Law enforcement is now intercepting text messages, as proven by Operation Sudden Fall in San Diego. http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/newsrel/sd050608.html http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/education/20080506-1338-bn06sdsu2.html Don't let your personal SMS/text messages fall into the wrong hands. Encrypt your messages with one of these: http://www.CryptoSMS.org http://www.CryptoSMS.com http://www.FortressMail.net/fortress_sms.htm http://www.Cop2p.com/encrypted_sms.html Be Safe, Be Encrypted, Fuck the Police!! -- Tell Mitch it's thin fiting off a wealth. ------------------------------ Date: 9 May 2008 16:49:59 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: <2G6DFOL2mkWL@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) writes: > > Agreed. You mentioned nothing which I have any use for, which is why my > primary workstations are VMS both at work and home. I do keep old Macs > at both locations which are rarely used. For example, the Mac at home > is mainly used to update the time settings in my X-10 house controller. You know, I did have Lotus/123 and 2020 as spreadsheets on my VLC at one time, but never found much use for them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 2008 17:24:00 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Scrolling wheel support on VMS Message-ID: On Fri, 09 May 2008 11:18:15 -0700, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> >> How do you run Acrobat professional, spread sheets, Autocad, do I need >> to >> go on? >> > > A bunch of stuff I have no use for? No, you do not need to go on. Right, but the point is the rest of the world does. It is an integral part of business today, the ability to do it. Your needs are very specific and narrow so you can live with it. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 11:27:48 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: The worst things in life are free! (Was: Re: Longtime VMS system manager/program Message-ID: Hi Arne, > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools > are zero. Excellent - You're my kind o' retailer! Please send me one of your lovely copies of "Flex Builder 3 - Professional". (I have it down as AUD$1175.00 but I'm more than happy to give you my business. But don't try to slip me one of those "Standard" jobbies for AUD$419.00.) How 'bout the whole enchilada "CS3 Master Edition" at AUD$4,500.00 RRP? Arne's software shack still knocking that out at $0.00 a pop :-) Cheers Richard Maher PS. But I do like Eclipse and Subversion (and Easy Eclipse is good for plugins if you're as lazy as me) and Google's got some amazing stuff for free, but I guess I just don't understand the business model for this freeware. (But then I really don't understand VMS middle-management pitching a quality, robust, secure, high-performance and, ultimately, expensive OS/hardware platform at people who are more than happy with a GoDaddy virtual server with Linux-Apache-Perl-MySQL fo $26/month.) You get what you pay for I suppose. . . "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message news:48010e01$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk... > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Generally, you have to use the tools that are available, whatever they > > might be. It has been a while since I looked at pricing but a Fortran > > compiler license for the VAX 11/750 used to cost $5,000 US. The price > > was approximately the same for ANY of the available compilers. This > > meant that you didn't always have the appropriate tool for the job; you > > had to "make do" with whatever was available. > > Price of tools are often an important factor in the decision > about tools. > > The good thing (for developers in general not for those making > tools) is that the new standard price for development tools > are zero. > > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 14:37:04 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveG Subject: Re: What systems can use USB? Message-ID: <6410f959-619b-4c2b-b3ce-e6448799f0a5@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On May 9, 1:22=A0pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "John Wallace" writes: > > > In particular the much-delayed arrival of Vista (and the associated Offi= ce > > "upgrades") changes things. Vista's "success" in the market (no one sens= ible > > buys it unless they have to) shows that even Microsoft's monopoly isn't > > necessarily forever. > > =A0 =A0The only people I know of who have Vista and/or the new Office are > =A0 =A0kids at my daughter's college who were clueless when the bought new= > =A0 =A0PCs for their frosh year. My daughter works for a big accounting firm. Used to be one of the big 8, but after fall of Arthur Anderson, its <8 now. They're starting to migratre all their users to Vista. Dave... ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.260 ************************