INFO-VAX Wed, 12 Mar 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 144 Contents: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Re: Apache performance problem Re: DHCP Server question/problem Re: DHCP Server question/problem Re: DHCP Server question/problem Re: DHCP Server question/problem Re: DHCP Server question/problem Re: DLT-4 cassetes are slower than DLT-3 on the same drive? Re: Encryption on VMS ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx Re: ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx Re: OT: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: OT: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Re: Time changing after reboot Re: Time changing after reboot Re: Time changing after reboot Re: Time changing after reboot Warning, a VMS time-setting pitfall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:54:54 -0400 From: "Jilly" Subject: Re: "file locked by another user" mystery Message-ID: <47d7e103$0$25212$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> "Volker Halle" wrote in message news:487660d5-d06d-4c80-baa7-7be34618bfd0@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com... On 11 Mrz., 20:24, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article > , > tadamsmar writes: > > > On Mar 11, 12:27=A0pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > >> It's one thing to say that the file was not listed. > > > The file was listed. > > Then the file is INSTALLed. A privileged user INSTALLed it and > a privileged user can INSTALL REMOVE it. At which point it will > get closed. INSTALL REMOVE (or DELETE) will mark the global section for deletion. The file will not be closed, until the last process unmaps the global section. Also remember that the remove or delete will not happen immediately even if there is no process mapped to the section. The delete or remove is buffered in the SWAPPER to-do list and can happen up to a few minutes after the command is executed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:58:29 -0400 From: "Jilly" Subject: Re: Apache performance problem Message-ID: <47d7e1da$0$25195$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> "Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing" wrote in message news:00A76738.EEA9033D@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU... > In article <47d6ea50$0$25052$607ed4bc@cv.net>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > writes: >>In article <47D6E7DA.1060107@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> writes: >>>John Nebel wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing wrote: >>>> >>>>> In article <47D045E6.7050303@csdco.com>, John Nebel >>>>> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> This is on OpenVMS 7.3-2 and Apache 1.3-1 >>>>>> >>>>>> Apache is performing an insane number of logical name translations, >>>>>> this can exceed a rate of 200k/second and averages around 10k/second >>>>>> in our environment. >>>>>> >>>>>> One thing Apache appears to be doing is looping on a translation of >>>>>> apache$dcl_sync_xxxxxxxx >>>>>> >>>>>> 6-MAR 11:55:27.182282 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 >>>>>> APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >>>>>> 6-MAR 11:55:27.182266 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 >>>>>> APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >>>>>> 6-MAR 11:55:27.182250 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 >>>>>> APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >>>>>> 6-MAR 11:55:27.182235 03 4DF1DF06 APACHE_HTTPD 000FA418 >>>>>> APACHE$DCL_SYNC_4DFAA98B >>>>>> >>>>>> Ultimately this appears to have the ability to jam VMS enough to >>>>>> crash it with a cluexit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Is their a workaround, or does Apache 2.1-1 have a more reasonable >>>>>> behavior? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There's a CRTL flag that'll make Apache cache those logical-name >>>>> translation >>>>> results. >>>>> $ define/nolog decc$enable_getenv_cache enable >>>>> >>>>> in the APACHE$WWW LOGIN.COM >>>>> >>>>> -- Alan >>>> >>>> >>>> Alan, >>>> >>>> I don't think the decc$enable_getenv_cache logical will help in this >>>> case - the offending code within Apache (proc.c) starts with: >>>> >>>> ** Loop here until the child creates the synchronizing logical name or >>>> until >>>> ** the child process has exited. >>>> */ >>>> while (TRUE) >>>> { >>>> /* >>>> ** Check to see if the child process has created the synchronizing >>>> logical >>>> ** name; If it has, then exit the loop. >>>> */ >>>> status = SYS$TRNLNM (&SyncLnmAttr, >>>> &SyncTblDesc, >>>> &SyncLnmDesc, >>>> 0, 0); >>>> if (status & 1) >>>> break; >>>> [cut] >>>> >>>> The sync logical is defined within apache$dcl.com and the above routine >>>> just runs in a tight loop until the definition takes place. >>>> >>>> At times this can take 30% of a horrendous number of logical name >>>> translations. >>>> >>>> John >>> >>>Is there some reason why this code can't have a built in wait? Waiting >>>for two or five seconds between checks would save one hell of a lot of >>>CPU that could probably be better used elsewhere. > > It would certainly save CPU, but at the cost of delaying response to the > client by 2-5 seconds when a new child needed to be created. > >> >>This is FN ugly! Is there some reason _why_ this has been implemented in >>this fashion? There are better ways to inform the parent process that a >>subprocess has been created instead of looping on a semaphore implemented >>with a logical name. > > Create a mailbox for the child, have the child write to it first thing, > and hang a read attention AST on it, for example. > > I presume the idea is to not have to completely restructure the original > Apache code, though. (But I don't pretend to speak for the CSWS > developers.) > > -- Alan Why go to all that overhead. Use a doorbell lock. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 04:42:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DHCP Server question/problem Message-ID: <47d79826$0$1534$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Schroeder, AJ wrote: > the process. Per RFC there are certain numerical options (3 for default > router, 6 for DNS server,15 for domain name, etc.) My money would be that > VMS isn't passing the default router and the DNS server in such a way as the > Macs expect, so the Macs are just ignoring those options. It looks like the Alpha isn't passing any optiosn at all. And it is a real pain to debug. You need to backup the config because if you make a change it doesn't like, the server then complains about some corrupt database and refuses to start. (only solution is to delete the database files, bring back the server.pcy file from backup, and then use the DHCPGUI to create a fake entry in the database to have it created. There are no tools to recreate the db*.hsh files from scratch. > Reply Host structure: > ht=1:ha=00.50.e4.e6.d4.4c:ci=0.0.0.0:gi=10.0.0.11:sa=10.0.0.11:yi=10.0.0.150: > sm=255.255.0.0:lt=86400:sv=10.0.0.11:mt=2 (DHCPOFFER): The above does offer the correct IP address and setmask (10.0.0.150 ). But the offer lacks any options, even though the server is set to provide options in the offer. But further down, it fails to update the DNS entries DNS binding a.vaxination.ca to 10.0.0.150 DDNS failed to create a.vaxination.ca A 10.0.0.150 : DDNS failed to create 10.0.0.150 PTR a.vaxination.ca : And then: > Reply Host structure: > ht=1:ha=00.50.e4.e6.d4.4c:ci=0.0.0.0:gi=10.0.0.11:sa=10.0.0.11:yi=10.0.0.150: > sm=255.255.0.0:lt=86400:sv=10.0.0.11:t1=43200:t2=75600:mt=5 (DHCPACK): The thing is that it worked well on the older VAX software to support the Mac. But I have never gotten it to work properly on the alpha. And when it doesn't like the config, it gives no indication of what line it doesn't like, despite the debugging logicals having been set. Can't wait to have a Mac that runs 7/24 so I can start to move the server stuff onto it. Right now, if I have guests, my best bet is probably to use the more basic DHCP server in my router, it would take a few minutes to setup and know it would work, as opposed to trying to debug legacy software on VMS that refuses to work properly in my universe. Arghhhh ! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:56:54 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: DHCP Server question/problem Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Schroeder, AJ wrote: > >> the process. Per RFC there are certain numerical options (3 for default >> router, 6 for DNS server,15 for domain name, etc.) My money would be that >> VMS isn't passing the default router and the DNS server in such a way as the >> Macs expect, so the Macs are just ignoring those options. > > > It looks like the Alpha isn't passing any optiosn at all. And it is a > real pain to debug. You need to backup the config because if you make a > change it doesn't like, the server then complains about some corrupt > database and refuses to start. (only solution is to delete the database > files, bring back the server.pcy file from backup, and then use the > DHCPGUI to create a fake entry in the database to have it created. There > are no tools to recreate the db*.hsh files from scratch. > >> Reply Host structure: >> ht=1:ha=00.50.e4.e6.d4.4c:ci=0.0.0.0:gi=10.0.0.11:sa=10.0.0.11:yi=10.0.0.150: >> sm=255.255.0.0:lt=86400:sv=10.0.0.11:mt=2 (DHCPOFFER): > > The above does offer the correct IP address and setmask (10.0.0.150 ). > But the offer lacks any options, even though the server is set to > provide options in the offer. > > But further down, it fails to update the DNS entries > > DNS binding a.vaxination.ca to 10.0.0.150 > DDNS failed to create a.vaxination.ca A 10.0.0.150 : > DDNS failed to create 10.0.0.150 PTR a.vaxination.ca : > > And then: > >> Reply Host structure: >> ht=1:ha=00.50.e4.e6.d4.4c:ci=0.0.0.0:gi=10.0.0.11:sa=10.0.0.11:yi=10.0.0.150: >> sm=255.255.0.0:lt=86400:sv=10.0.0.11:t1=43200:t2=75600:mt=5 (DHCPACK): > > > The thing is that it worked well on the older VAX software to support > the Mac. But I have never gotten it to work properly on the alpha. > > And when it doesn't like the config, it gives no indication of what line > it doesn't like, despite the debugging logicals having been set. > > Can't wait to have a Mac that runs 7/24 so I can start to move the > server stuff onto it. > > Right now, if I have guests, my best bet is probably to use the more > basic DHCP server in my router, it would take a few minutes to setup and > know it would work, as opposed to trying to debug legacy software on VMS > that refuses to work properly in my universe. > > Arghhhh ! Why not always use the router for DHCP ? Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 05:11:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DHCP Server question/problem Message-ID: <47d79ee8$0$25376$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > Why not always use the router for DHCP ? The VMS DHCP router is moe full featured than the router's one. It has a GUI interface and better logging. I had it working perfectly when on VAX, it is only since migrating to alpha that I have problems. The doc on vax said that the DNS server must be on the same machine as the DHCP server. I will revisit this to see if it still applies. My vax may outline my alphas because of its serial ports, unless I can find some affordable terminal server to replace the serial ports on the vax. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:23:49 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DHCP Server question/problem Message-ID: <47d7afd5$0$1501$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Some progress. I edited the DHCPCAP.; file and manually cleaned it up. There were some lines with double :: I also put the subnet group before the individual node that is defined. On the Mac, I had noticed that the subnet mask being given was 255.0.0.0 even though I had specified my subnet mask is 255.255.0.0 After fixing up the DHCPCAP.; file manually, I not have a subnet mask and default router being sent to the Mac, but not the DNS server. The DNS server (DS= option) seems to be transmitted to the mac. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:34:03 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: DHCP Server question/problem Message-ID: <47d7b220$0$10272$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Further investigation: The DS: parameter is being sent and interpreted by the Mac, but not displayed in the GUI box showing the DNS servers. But going to the command mode, you can invoke NSLOOKUP and it will show the server that was given in the DHCP response. So essentially, it appears that the DHCPCAP.; file being generated by the DHCP_GUI application wasn't quite kosher and the server didn't process it properly even though log files seemed to indicate it had parsed it properly. (I suspect order of items may be important). ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 2008 11:29:11 GMT From: yehavi@vms.huji.ac.il Subject: Re: DLT-4 cassetes are slower than DLT-3 on the same drive? Message-ID: <2008Mar12.112911@hujicc> In article <47d64a16$0$14359$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> writes: > The new drive may be faster, and the current system you have can't keep > up with the speed of the new drives while it could with the old ones. > So listen to the drives, if they move back- and forward during backup > (shoe-shining) that's your problem. You may want to look at the > io_limit qualifier in backup to lower the value. You did not mention what > kind of system this is. I've done some experiments and indeed it seems that this is the case. Increasing the block size or disabling compaction on the drive helps. Thanks! __Yehavi: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:02:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Subject: Re: Encryption on VMS Message-ID: <45355d6d-7324-40f6-870e-dbb8a97ff522@v3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On 4 Mar, 04:15, ewi...@ewilts.org wrote: > For our environment, we run the NetBackup client on VMS (and it's > awesome) and pump all the data to fibre-attached LTO-3 drives front- > ended by Decru encryption appliances. It works like a charm. > > .../Ed If you don't want to use hardware and you are using Netbackup then Symantec supplies a plug in for the Netbackup Media Server which encrypts and compresses at the media server itself. You need the compression option because if you normally backup data that can be compressed to a drive which supports HW compression then encrypting the data first will defeat your hardware compression device reducing the capacity of your backup tapes. Regards Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:20:43 +0200 From: "Jack" Subject: ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx Message-ID: I need to configure ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx. Can I get a link or a reference? Thanks Jack ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:37:59 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, Jack wrote: > I need to configure ntp on vms ver 6.2 with ucx. > Can I get a link or a reference? @SYS$MANAGER:UCX$CONFIG and enable ntp. Then edit SYS$SPECIFIC:[UCX$NTP]UCX$NTP.CONF (you might have to create .CONF from .TEMPLATE). This file contains instructions. As I recall, this version of ntp only supported the PEER command, so you will end up with a file that contains: ; ... peer a.b.c.d peer a.b.c.e peer a.b.c.f or something like that. Then @SYS$STARTUP:NTP$STARTUP. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:40:01 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: OT: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: <8f63b881-65ed-4222-a6e4-dde0ad7d7e29@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Mar 7, 9:53=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Last week, I ported from VMS to OS-X a small C program that generates > lottery numbers (and postscript which then puts the squares in the right > locations on the forms). > > Turns out that the Apple random number generator is far better than VMS' > because on the first time I used the Mac generated numbers, I won a > whopping $10 at the lottery. Statistically, my program on a MAC is 100% > succesful at generating a winning number, whereas on VMS it rarely > generated a winning number (and it was just a free ticket :=3D( > > So there you go, undeniable proof that Macintosh is better than VMS. > > :-) :-) :-) :-) I read a book about some guys who analyzed poker computers. They found one that used a deterministic sequence of random numbers AND you could determine where it was in the sequence by watching the sequence of poker hands. They made money, but casino security eventually caught up with them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:36:06 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: <47D7F866.6060900@comcast.net> tadamsmar wrote: > On Mar 7, 9:53 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>Last week, I ported from VMS to OS-X a small C program that generates >>lottery numbers (and postscript which then puts the squares in the right >>locations on the forms). >> >>Turns out that the Apple random number generator is far better than VMS' >>because on the first time I used the Mac generated numbers, I won a >>whopping $10 at the lottery. Statistically, my program on a MAC is 100% >>succesful at generating a winning number, whereas on VMS it rarely >>generated a winning number (and it was just a free ticket :=( >> >>So there you go, undeniable proof that Macintosh is better than VMS. >> >>:-) :-) :-) :-) > > > I read a book about some guys who analyzed poker computers. They > found one that used a deterministic sequence of random numbers AND you > could determine where it was in the sequence by watching the sequence > of poker hands. > > They made money, but casino security eventually caught up with them. Err. . . . What could "casino security" do about it? Ask them to leave? Seems to me that a casino is a "place of public accomodation" and they might have a little legal trouble if anybody cared to push the issue! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:52:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Subject: Re: OT: Universal healthcare in England failing - boy dies ! Message-ID: On 8 Mar, 13:33, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Mar 7, 11:17 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > In article , ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > > >On Mar 7, 9:05=A0am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > >> In article > >om>, ultra...@gmail.com writes: > > > >> >On Mar 6, 8:27=3DA0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > >> >> Bob, > > > >> >> do you realise that people like you who use religious values/reasons to= > > > >> >> oppose certain topics are exactly the same as muslim extremists who use= > > > >> >> religious excuses to rebel against stuff they don't like (such as the U= > > >SA)=3D > > >> > ? > > > >> >> It is interesting that the country that should understand religious > > >> >> extremists the most (because of 9-11) should itself have so many > > >> >> extremists and not only no realise it, but give those extremists > > >> >> political voices and power. > > > >> >I AM TIRED OF YOU EQUATING CHRISTIANS TO > > >> >MUSLIM EXTREMISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > >> >Christians do not tie bombs to themselves and kill > > >> >others because they will not believe ... > > > >> I've never understood why a terrorist who sacrifices themselves when attac= > > >king > > >> their enemies should be considered any different than a terrorist who > > >> just plants a bomb and walks away and therefore lives to plant further bom= > > >bs. > > >> The IRA whose members were supposedly Christians didn't use suicide bombin= > > >g > > >> but they did force others to drive cars filled with explosives at British > > >> Army checkpoints by threatening their families > > >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb > > >> ( So no they didn't tie bombs to themselves to kill others - they "tied" b= > > >ombs > > >> to other innocent civilians and blew them up to kill others. > > >> I'd regard that tactic as being far more dispicable that suicide bombing) > > > >> It is also probably worth noting that some of the Japanese Kamikazi pilots= > > > >> were Christian see > > > >>http://www.martinrothonline.com/Christians&War/Christian_suicide_bomb... > > > >> David Webb > > >> Security team leader > > >> CCSS > > >> Middlesex University > > > >> >the apostles and all other TRUE Christians were put > > >> >to death ... the last time I checked, it was Christians > > >> >who were laying dead in the catacombs in Rome, not > > >> >romans ...- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > >wrong ... they were NOT Christians ... > > > >true Christians know that only God has the right to > > >kill, and that means suicide too, and if they do it is > > >murder ... and you can add abortion to that too ... > > > So throughout history most christians haven't really been christian ? > > Catholic church - Inquisition killing heretics, witches etc > > Christian countries fighting wars in the name of religion. > > Most religious denominations fighting and indeed glorying in wars. > > > The IRA members definitely considered themselves to be Catholic just as the > > Loyalists considered themselves to be protestants. > > > >just because someone says there are a Christian > > >does not mean they are ... > > > The same could be said about many who profess to be muslims. > > > David Webb > > Security team leader > > CCSS > > Middlesex University- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > those who kill in the name of God are NOT Christians ... > > God has very rarely given that authority to anyone outside > > of Himself, mainly the jews in certain circumstances ... > > most of the time, he sends the angel of death to handle > > that ... Most Muslims have exactly the same view about those who kill in the name of Islam, namely that they are not true Muslims. Unfortunately there are still people who think of themselves as Muslims and commit crimes in the name of Islam, just the same as Catholic IRA or the Protestant UDA or the Catholics in France killing the Huguenots. Etc etc. Regards Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:11:01 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >In article <63o0q8F27i0npU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <960d254f-6ae7-4334-ab8e-e58e2b1ed88c@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>>> >>>> You are confusing quantum mechanics math with reality. If you mean >>>> that the mathematics of quantum mechanics is not concerned with >>>> resolving apparent randomness, then you are correct. You might want to >>>> look into the de Broglie-Bohm theory, more recently called Bohmian >>>> Mechanics. >>> >>> Quantum mechanics math vs. reality? You think reality differs? >> >> I'll bet a lot of people do. When science requires faith than religion >> in order to accept that which can neither be observed nor satisfactorily >> proven I think more and more people will see the difference. >> > > All of the predictions of quantum mechanics have been observed and > verified many times. If they weren't the fellow who observed the > failure would get the Nobel Prize. > And many did over the years as the theory evolved from non-relativistic QM to quantum field theories such as QED which incorporate special relativity. Similarly GR and relativistic QM are not compatible and hence we know that QM is not an accurate representation of reality. So yes definitely reality differs. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 2008 08:14:03 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: In article <969c8266-38a4-4a80-a9f4-711e65b0f4ff@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > It seems to me that the apparent randomness isn't really addressed by > this theory. In fact, I searched for "random" in the Wikipedia article > about it and got zero hits. I don't think Wiki has been vetted as The Source on quantum mechanics, the meaning of random, or any other topic. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:11:44 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: In article , AEF writes: >On Mar 11, 1:19 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article , >> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >> > In article <960d254f-6ae7-4334-ab8e-e58e2b1ed...@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >> >> >> You are confusing quantum mechanics math with reality. If you mean >> >> that the mathematics of quantum mechanics is not concerned with >> >> resolving apparent randomness, then you are correct. You might want to >> >> look into the de Broglie-Bohm theory, more recently called Bohmian >> >> Mechanics. >> >> > Quantum mechanics math vs. reality? You think reality differs? >> >> I'll bet a lot of people do. When science requires faith than religion >> in order to accept that which can neither be observed nor satisfactorily >> proven I think more and more people will see the difference. > >I assume you meant "When science requires *more* faith..." > >Scientists have faith in the scientific method which requires >evidence. Religious people have what James Randi calls "blind >faith"[1]. That makes all the difference in the world. > >[1] See http://www.randi.org/jr/072503.html (Mostly a good article, >but I disagree with his opinion of the Wizard of Oz.) > >As far as using local hidden variables to restore determinism that >only "appears" probabilistic, the experimental evidence ruling these >out is more compelling than ever. Many, many experiments have been >done and QM always, always wins. This is a strawman since there are non-local hidden variable theories. >We're not talking about the >possibility of experimental error clouding the results. The skeptics >who complained that the early experiments could still allow local >hidden variables because of events missed by detectors because said >detectors were not 100% efficient. OK. But the efficiencies have been >greatly improved and the room for determinism has been all but wiped >out. Then there is the GHZ paradox which largely sidesteps the issue. >There is simply no way to explain the results of GHZ experiments using >local hidden variables. > These experiments rule out local realistic theories. This just leaves two choices 1) non-locality or 2) non-realism To my mind the latter doesn't actually make much sense. If the wave function doesn't actually have a physical existence and a particle doesn't have any properties until you measure them then how are entangled particles actually linked. (If the wave function does physically exist then it's collapse will be a non-local effect so such versions of the Copenhagen interpretation are non-local). David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >If you would learn about this, you would probably slowly begin to >realize that there is no way out. It is getting to the point where >insisting there must be determinism somehow being hidden behind the >veil of probability is akin to denying the existence of atoms. Do you >deny the existence of atoms? If so, why; and if not, why not? > >I used to be on the deterministic side. I even tried to concoct an >explanation for polarization experiments to show how determinism could >still prevail, but I quickly found my analysis to be flawed. > >The only faith science requires is faith in evidence, which is exactly >the opposite of religious faith, which is faith that some people >hundreds and/or thousands of years ago interacted with some god and >wrote about it. That's hardly the same. > >AEF > >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include > ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 2008 14:32:45 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: <63q7sdF290er2U1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <969c8266-38a4-4a80-a9f4-711e65b0f4ff@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> It seems to me that the apparent randomness isn't really addressed by >> this theory. In fact, I searched for "random" in the Wikipedia article >> about it and got zero hits. > > I don't think Wiki has been vetted as The Source on quantum > mechanics, the meaning of random, or any other topic. What do you mean? If it's on the INTERNET it has to be true. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:16:50 +0100 From: "Fred Zwarts" Subject: Re: Proof that macintosh is better than VMS Message-ID: <962fe$47d80201$817d1b38$4627@news1.tudelft.nl> "AEF" wrote in message = news:d605f298-85d8-491f-aeb7-3ba58aa7ac8c@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...= > > ... >=20 > Scientists have faith in the scientific method which requires > evidence. Religious people have what James Randi calls "blind > faith"[1]. That makes all the difference in the world. >=20 > [1] See http://www.randi.org/jr/072503.html (Mostly a good article, > but I disagree with his opinion of the Wizard of Oz.) It seems you suggest that scientists and religious people are different. However, there are many religious scientists. Of course our own faith is not blind faith, only the faith of others is. > ... >=20 > The only faith science requires is faith in evidence, which is exactly > the opposite of religious faith, which is faith that some people > hundreds and/or thousands of years ago interacted with some god and > wrote about it. That's hardly the same. You just ignore all other evidence for religious faith. That makes it easier to call it blind faith. Of course the evidence we use counts, the evidence that other people use = doesn't. You ignore that even today many people interact with God. If you can't see God, who is blind? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Shadow set problem finally solved Message-ID: <10b5d716-18aa-4705-bec3-dc169725ada0@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Mar 8, 5:22=A0pm, BEGINcornel...@decuserve.orgEND (George Cornelius) wrote: > In article , Pete writes: > > On Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:09:44 -0800 (PST), tadamsmar > > wrote: > > > Maybe if you posted all the messages returned from the ana/disk/read > > someone might be able to pick somethin out. > > This thing really seems to be going nowhere. =A0It sure seems to me that > this is a standard, pure-vanilla problem of a shadow set having a forced > error that VMS replicates on every shadow copy, something that's been > around since Phase I shadowing and RA series drives. > > If that is the case, the solution is to overwrite the block in question. > > You should, just to be thorough, examine [000000]BADBLK.SYS and if it > has any allocation, check its LBN's with $ DUMP/HEADER/BLOCK=3DC:0 . > > If your block's not there, and if it's not already in some other file, > you have to allocate the block somehow. > > I've done it in the past by extending an existing zero-length file with > some Macro code and an allocation XAB, something that's not too difficult > once you home in on the correct settings, as in > > =A0 ExtendALQ=3D1 > =A0 StartLBN=3D16578125 > =A0 ExtendXAB: =A0$XABALL ALQ=3DExtendALQ,AOP=3D,ALN=3DLBN,LOC=3D= StartLBN > > But you can also do this: > > =A0$ create/fdl=3Dsys$input JUNK.TMP001 > =A0area 0;allocation 1;contig yes;exact_positioning yes;position logical 1= 6578125 > =A0 > > Note that this seems to work as long as the cluster containing the block > is available, in which case the starting point will be as much as > cluster_size - 1 earlier than was requested. > > Once you have the block allocated into a file, say 0 blocks in use of > N blocks allocated, write to the file, making sure there is enough > data to overwrite the bad block. =A0Remember that you should write at > least one cluster's worth of data even though you only asked for one > block to be allocated. > > After redoing the shadow copy and checking that your errors have, in > fact, gone away and everything is stable, you can delete the temporary > file. > > [I haven't done this for a long time, so it's from memory. =A0If this fail= s, > init/erase a target drive, then back up to it from your master copy]. > > -- > George Cornelius =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0cornelius A T eisner D O T dec= us D O T org > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 cornelius A T = =A0 mayo D O T edu How do I look at BADBLK.SYS for a shadow set? I have broke a member out of the shadowset and mounted it foreign before, but I don't get any useful info that way. ANAL/MEDIA seems to be completely independent of the shadowset algorithm for locating bad blocks. Are you sure a *shadow set* uses BADBLK.SYS? If so, how do I read it? How about doing this: 1. Break out a member. 2. Do an back/image on the member 3. init/eras the member 4. restore the image on the member 5. boot on the member, making it the only member of the shadowset. 6. merge the other disk into the shadowset Would that get rid of all these parity errors? It seems a little safer and easier (for me) than trying to write blocks to specific LBAs. If this procedure would work, do I need any qualifiers on init/erase or are the defaults just reproduce the disk parameters that are already there? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 05:39:05 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Time changing after reboot Message-ID: On Mar 11, 4:18=A0pm, Jim wrote: > On Mar 11, 2:35=A0pm, tadamsmar wrote: > > > > > > > On Mar 11, 2:11=A0pm, "Jeff Goodwin" wrote: > > > > "tadamsmar" wrote in message > > > >news:056fcdca-4c33-4a6b-b84f-5a53d09669b4@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com.= .. > > > > >I have some systems set up for automatic time change. =A0 Everything > > > > appeared to work fine on March 9, but... > > > > > I just had to reboot one of them and it jumped forward one hour! > > > > Then I rebooted another one and the same thing happened on that > > > > system. > > > > Check the last line of this file and verify you have the correct rule = set: > > > > SYS$STARTUP:TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM > > > > -Jeff > > > Thanks! > > > That fixed it. > > > I don't see anything in the TZ-V0200 release notes about fixing that. > > > How was one to know to edit that? > > You shouldn't have to - that file is updated when you use SYS > $MANAGER:NET$CONFIGURE.COM to configure your time differential factor. > You probably want to execute this now as it is possible that other > things (SYS$SYSTEM:SYS$TIMEZONE_SRC.DAT perhaps) are also incorrect. > After execution of NET$CONFIGURE to change the TDF you'll also want to > execute the updated SYS$STARTUP:TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - There is no such file NET$CONFIGURE.COM on my system. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:31:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Volker Halle Subject: Re: Time changing after reboot Message-ID: In my case, TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM had the wrong timezone information (EST4 instead of MET-1). Volker. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:12:06 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: Time changing after reboot Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2:35=A0pm, tadamsmar wrote: > On Mar 11, 2:11=A0pm, "Jeff Goodwin" wrote: > > > > > > > "tadamsmar" wrote in message > > >news:056fcdca-4c33-4a6b-b84f-5a53d09669b4@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...= > > > >I have some systems set up for automatic time change. =A0 Everything > > > appeared to work fine on March 9, but... > > > > I just had to reboot one of them and it jumped forward one hour! > > > Then I rebooted another one and the same thing happened on that > > > system. > > > Check the last line of this file and verify you have the correct rule se= t: > > > SYS$STARTUP:TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM > > > -Jeff > > Thanks! > > That fixed it. > > I don't see anything in the TZ-V0200 release notes about fixing that. > > How was one to know to edit that? > > I guess you only see this problem if you reboot during the window > where the old and new rules disagree? =A0If so, that is a nice little > pitfall.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I find the old string in all these files. Why do VMS systems have the parallel directory trees with the same files!? I guess I don't have to worry about DTSS unless I use it. Output from a search of .COM files: ****************************** DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYS$STARTUP]TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM;2 $ DTSS$SET_TIMEZONE INITIALIZE "EST5EDT4,M4.1.0/02,M10.5.0/02" ****************************** DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSUPD]DTSS$INSTALL_TIMEZONE_RULE.COM;1 $ say " for Eastern US: EST5EDT4,M4.1.0/2,M10.5.0/2" $ say " value EST5EDT4,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 it would describe the rule, which" %SEARCH-I-NULLFILE, file DSA0:[TEK.SCRATCH]STARTX_00000122.COM;2 contains no records %SEARCH-I-NULLFILE, file DSA0:[TEK.SCRATCH]STARTX_00000156.COM;1 contains no records ****************************** DSA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$STARTUP]TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM;2 $ DTSS$SET_TIMEZONE INITIALIZE "EST5EDT4,M4.1.0/02,M10.5.0/02" ****************************** DSA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSUPD]DTSS$INSTALL_TIMEZONE_RULE.COM;1 $ say " for Eastern US: EST5EDT4,M4.1.0/2,M10.5.0/2" $ say " value EST5EDT4,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 it would describe the rule, which" $ show log sys$startup "SYS$STARTUP" =3D "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYS$STARTUP]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) =3D "SYS$MANAGER" 1 "SYS$MANAGER" =3D "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) $ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:56:21 +0100 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Time changing after reboot Message-ID: tadamsmar wrote: > I guess I don't have to worry about DTSS unless I use it. You'd only have to worry about DTSS if you had DECnet Phase V installed. Seems you don't have, as you said in another post, you don't have NET$CONFIGURE.COM. > I find the old string in all these files. Why do VMS systems have the > parallel directory trees with the same files!? > DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYS$STARTUP]TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM;2 > DSA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSUPD]DTSS$INSTALL_TIMEZONE_RULE.COM;1 ... > DSA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYS$STARTUP]TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM;2 > DSA0:[VMS$COMMON.SYSUPD]DTSS$INSTALL_TIMEZONE_RULE.COM;1 DSA0:[SYS0]SYSCOMMON.DIR is an alias for DSA0:[000000]VMS$COMMON.DIR so that in a cluster, each node can have the common files underneath his specific directory [SYSx]. cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://vms.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:24:36 -0700 (PDT) From: tadamsmar Subject: Warning, a VMS time-setting pitfall Message-ID: Seems COMPAQ left something out of the release notes for the TZ patch. You should check that SYS$STARTUP:TDF$UTC_STARTUP.COM does not have the pre-2007 timezone rule string imbedded. This caused my system time to be advanced by one hour every time I rebooted. Probably only happens for reboots between the times when the old and new rule imply a different system time. The problem has been latent on the systems I manage since early in 2007 when I applied the TZ patch. I rarely reboot. If you want to find all the instances of the old EST/EDT rule string on your system, issue this command: sea dsa0:[000000...]*.com "EST5EDT4,M4.1" I don't know where you can find a list of all the old rule strings for all time zones. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.144 ************************