INFO-VAX Thu, 28 Feb 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 117 Contents: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Re: anal/disk/shadow weirdnes Re: Buying disks for DS10s Re: Did I miss Infiniband clusters? Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Re: INIT/ERASE & DELETE/ERASE vs DOD erase/format standard Re: INIT/ERASE & DELETE/ERASE vs DOD erase/format standard Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Re: Samba and text files Re: Samba and text files Re: Samba and text files Re: Samba and text files ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:01:40 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47C5B394.8010102@comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > On Feb 27, 11:40 am, Cydrome Leader wrote: > [...snip...] > >>>Do you feel comfortable buying from a company that is destroying VMS's >>>chances ? >> >>Can you explain the overlap between VMS and a windows workstation? >> > > > An instance of JF's humor :-) > > The HP-Pavilion (which runs Windoz) and VMS are both marketed by HP. > > Neil Rieck > BZZZZZZZZT!!!! WRONG!!!!!! Only one of the above is marketed by HP. Maybe Sue can find you someone at HP who can sell you VMS but they clearly do not market it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:23:25 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47c5b8fb$0$10282$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Cydrome Leader wrote: > Can you explain the overlap between VMS and a windows workstation? VMS used to be in the workstation business and used to be way ahead of Windows in OFFICE APPLICATIONS. Since HP isn't interested in growing VMS and prefers to let it die quietly, HP is ruining my skill sets and I am worthless on the marketplace and have to re-learn everything and move to another platform. Do you seriously think that I will ever want to purchase anything from HP ? One of the reasons Marcello was able to convince Curly to postpone the killing of VMS in 2000 is the fact that Compaq would not be able to convert VMS customers to other Compaq product and those customers would be lost forever. What we have been told here is that VMS will not be ported beyond that IA64 contraption. When you consider key applications such as Cerner have abandonned ship already, it looks as if the downward trend for VMS will accelerate. One must not reward HP's handling of VMS by buying other HP products. The HP folks like stallard/livermore would likely have told the board that they would be able to salvage much of the VMS customer base and keep them as HP customers. They must be proven wrong. The least we can do is help punish those people at HP who think VMS can be slowly abandonned and customer moved to other HP products. Every customer who moves from VMS to another HP product helps support the killing of VMS. Every customer who visible moved from VMS to a competitor (IBM/Sun/Dell) helps maintain VMS alive. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 19:52:46 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: JKB wrote: > Le 27-02-2008, ? propos de > Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon, > Cydrome Leader ?crivait dans comp.os.vms : >> JKB wrote: >>> Le 26-02-2008, ? propos de >>> Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon, >>> Cydrome Leader ?crivait dans comp.os.vms : >>>> JKB wrote: >>>>> Le 26-02-2008, ? propos de >>>>> Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon, >>>>> Cydrome Leader ?crivait dans comp.os.vms : >>>>>> JKB wrote: >>>>>>> Le 26-02-2008, ? propos de >>>>>>> 6-core CPU on the horizon, >>>>>>> Neil Rieck ?crivait dans comp.os.vms : >>>>>>>> For anyone watching competing technologies, Intel has a 6-core CPU on >>>>>>>> the horizon. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080226-details-slip-on-upcoming-intel-dunnington-six-core-processor.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes and ? My Sparc T1000 uses 8-cores CPU (and 4 threads by core) >>>>>>> for a long time... >>>>>> >>>>>> and each "thread" is about the speed of a 486. >>>>> >>>>> Nope. This server is a database server and runs faster than all x64 >>>>> I have tried. >>>>> >>>>> JKB >>>>> >>>> >>>> Each thread is horribly slow, there's just lots of them. shut off 30 cores >>>> and see how that machine handles. >>> >>> I have a lot of T1000 and I have done a lot of tests before buying >>> this kind of material. I have made some tests to see degradation due >>> to SMP architecture. This degradation is not important and when you >>> know what you do with this material, you can achieve very good >>> performances in parallel computation (or with multithreaded >>> softwares). Each thread is not horribly slow as you say, and its >>> performance is good even when load average is high. I think you >>> haven't tried this material. >>> >>> JKB >>> >>> PS: [OT], thus for me, >> >> bullshit. >> >> run a compile on a t1000. it's like stepping back into the 1990s. You can >> read the compiler jabber as it slowly scrolls by. >> >> threaded stuff seems happy on such a machine, but for single processes >> that want CPU, it's really really slow. > > And ? If you buy a 32 threads-CPU without using multithreaded > programs, you're idiot. It takes an idiot to miss the point that lots of "newer faster" processors are in fact slowers than previous generation CPU for the huge number of tasks that are not multithreaded. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:00:40 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > >> Can you explain the overlap between VMS and a windows workstation? > > VMS used to be in the workstation business and used to be way ahead of > Windows in OFFICE APPLICATIONS. used to ahead? when, 20 years ago? > Since HP isn't interested in growing VMS and prefers to let it die > quietly, HP is ruining my skill sets and I am worthless on the > marketplace and have to re-learn everything and move to another platform. You're ruining your skills by not letting go, and refusing to learn new things. > Do you seriously think that I will ever want to purchase anything from HP ? I really don't care. You've had decade to learn more current skills, and now you're all upset because that was a bad move? > One of the reasons Marcello was able to convince Curly to postpone the > killing of VMS in 2000 is the fact that Compaq would not be able to > convert VMS customers to other Compaq product and those customers would > be lost forever. > > > What we have been told here is that VMS will not be ported beyond that > IA64 contraption. When you consider key applications such as Cerner have > abandonned ship already, it looks as if the downward trend for VMS will > accelerate. > > One must not reward HP's handling of VMS by buying other HP products. > The HP folks like stallard/livermore would likely have told the board > that they would be able to salvage much of the VMS customer base and > keep them as HP customers. They must be proven wrong. > > The least we can do is help punish those people at HP who think VMS can > be slowly abandonned and customer moved to other HP products. > > Every customer who moves from VMS to another HP product helps support > the killing of VMS. Every customer who visible moved from VMS to a > competitor (IBM/Sun/Dell) helps maintain VMS alive. I'm not following how people migrating off VMS keeps VMS alive. In my book, VMS was dead when the VAX I used was chopped up for scrap and left in a hallway. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:30:43 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47c5c8b8$0$1466$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Cydrome Leader wrote: > I'm not following how people migrating off VMS keeps VMS alive. In my > book, VMS was dead when the VAX I used was chopped up for scrap and left > in a hallway. The bet/promise at HP is that they will be able to convert VMS customers to HP customers and retain them. If VMS customers who are leaving VMS move to other HP products and services, then HP's VPs will be able to point to the success of converting VMS customers to HP customers and accelerate the de-emphasis of VMS to quicken the move from VMS. On the other hand, if VMS customers move to other vendors, then HP may be forced to rethink if de-emphasis philosophy for VMS and try to retain customers on VMS as long as possible. But I think it is too late now. When HP told/allowed Cerner to abandon VMS last summer, it probably sent VMS into an irreversible, inevitable decline. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:07:31 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > >> I'm not following how people migrating off VMS keeps VMS alive. In my >> book, VMS was dead when the VAX I used was chopped up for scrap and left >> in a hallway. > > The bet/promise at HP is that they will be able to convert VMS customers > to HP customers and retain them. > > If VMS customers who are leaving VMS move to other HP products and > services, then HP's VPs will be able to point to the success of > converting VMS customers to HP customers and accelerate the de-emphasis > of VMS to quicken the move from VMS. so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. > On the other hand, if VMS customers move to other vendors, then HP may > be forced to rethink if de-emphasis philosophy for VMS and try to retain > customers on VMS as long as possible. so in this case, HP can just go ahead and drop VMS because nobody's using it anymore. It doesn't matter what they do or who you buy from. VMS is going away. > But I think it is too late now. When HP told/allowed Cerner to abandon > VMS last summer, it probably sent VMS into an irreversible, inevitable > decline. It might be nice if VMS ran on something other than a the already dead but never really killed off alpha platform. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:26:56 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47c5e3fc$0$10264$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Cydrome Leader wrote: > so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. No. The point is to send the message to HP that when they allow a VMS customer to drop VMS, that customer also drops HP alltogether. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:34:00 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47C5E558.9090808@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > > >>so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. > > > No. The point is to send the message to HP that when they allow a VMS > customer to drop VMS, that customer also drops HP alltogether. If HP is hoping to transition VMS customers to HP-UX, they are in deep trouble. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:06:27 +0100 From: "CyberCityNews" Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47c5ecf3$0$89172$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> Cydrome Leader wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Cydrome Leader wrote: >> >>> I'm not following how people migrating off VMS keeps VMS alive. In >>> my book, VMS was dead when the VAX I used was chopped up for scrap >>> and left in a hallway. >> >> The bet/promise at HP is that they will be able to convert VMS >> customers to HP customers and retain them. >> >> If VMS customers who are leaving VMS move to other HP products and >> services, then HP's VPs will be able to point to the success of >> converting VMS customers to HP customers and accelerate the >> de-emphasis of VMS to quicken the move from VMS. > > so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate > VMS. > >> On the other hand, if VMS customers move to other vendors, then HP >> may be forced to rethink if de-emphasis philosophy for VMS and try >> to retain customers on VMS as long as possible. > > so in this case, HP can just go ahead and drop VMS because nobody's > using it anymore. > > It doesn't matter what they do or who you buy from. VMS is going away. > >> But I think it is too late now. When HP told/allowed Cerner to >> abandon VMS last summer, it probably sent VMS into an irreversible, >> inevitable decline. > > It might be nice if VMS ran on something other than a the already > dead but never really killed off alpha platform. The would be the dead but not yet killed Itanium I guess :) Dweeb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:11:32 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <47c5ee8f$0$25437$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > If HP is hoping to transition VMS customers to HP-UX, they are in deep > trouble. ;-) Wall Street Casino Analysts don't care about the IA64 based enterprise division for HP. It is small potatoes, and HP never puts much emphasis on it, and makes sure its numbers are published in such a way that nobody can draw conclusions about products, except for the disk business in which HP is still interested. What is important however is how people such as Livermore and Stallard are seen by the CEO (currently Hurd). They have allegedly made nifty powerpoint presentations showing that they could retain customers if VMS were allowed to dwindle to extinction. So they are the ones who stand to lose status with Hurd if their promises turn out to be false. And if Hurd loses respect for these two, he might then be opened to listening to some people at lower ranks who would show VMS was still a valuable asset worth developping. If ex-VMS customers remain with VMS, it will only strenghten Livermore and Stallard's positions within HP and this rteduce chances that HP might change its policy of allowing VMS to dwindle to extinction. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 2008 23:12:48 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <62m93gF246m02U1@mid.individual.net> In article <47c5e3fc$0$10264$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > >> so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. > > No. The point is to send the message to HP that when they allow a VMS > customer to drop VMS, that customer also drops HP alltogether. So, let's look at this from HP's point of view. They have, maybe, 100,000 VMS customers in the world and a potential for 0 more. They have several million Windows customers and a potentiol for maybe a billion more. Can you say "insignificant"? I thought you could. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 2008 23:16:06 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: <62m99lF246m02U2@mid.individual.net> In article <47C5E558.9090808@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > JF Mezei wrote: >> Cydrome Leader wrote: >> >> >>>so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. >> >> >> No. The point is to send the message to HP that when they allow a VMS >> customer to drop VMS, that customer also drops HP alltogether. > > If HP is hoping to transition VMS customers to HP-UX, they are in deep > trouble. ;-) I don't think the number of remaining VMS customers is significant enough that they care one way or the other. Who knows, they may have already made the consciuous decision by this point that it is better to just let the whiners go and concentrate on new business. The argument that HP should be shunned for letting VMS die is not likely to sway any CIO or CEO that I have ever met. Most of them probably don't even know what VMS is. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:31:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: 6-core CPU on the horizon Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Cydrome Leader wrote: > >> so in this case the point is to get people off VMS and then deprecate VMS. > > No. The point is to send the message to HP that when they allow a VMS > customer to drop VMS, that customer also drops HP alltogether. how many tens of dollars is the VMS market worth these days? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:30:53 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: anal/disk/shadow weirdnes Message-ID: <1Mjxj.33907$v57.9086@trnddc05> tadamsmar wrote: > On Feb 25, 5:29 pm, John Santos wrote: > >>In article <2bf2c280-5ed6-47e4-8855-ed0065a6bbd0 >>@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, tadams...@yahoo.com says... >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>On Feb 25, 2:25 pm, John Santos wrote: >>> >>>>In article <87e22c1f-ca1a-4fb3-95be-1395b828a415 >>>>@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, volker_ha...@hotmail.com says... >> >>>>>ANAL/DISK/SHADOW >> >>>>>Examines the entire contents of a shadow set or a specified range >>>>> of blocks in a shadow set for discrepancies. >> >>>>>ANAL/DISK/READ only reads blocks allocated to files. >> >>>>>So the bad blocks are NOT in a file. >> >>>>>Volker. >> >>>>$ anal/disk/shad/blocks=file_system >> >>>>apparently does what the OP claims ana/disk/shadow is supposed >>>>to do. >> >>>>(I've never had occasion to use this.) >> >>>>-- >>>>John >> >>>What do you mean by OP. >> >>OP == Original Poster, I.e. You! >> >> >>>Blocks=file is the default, according to help. >> >>I don't see anywhere where it says it's the default on either Alpha >>V7.3-2 or on Alpha V8.3. Maybe it used to say that, and was wrong, >>and an ECO fixed the help text? ... Oh, wait, under FILE_SYSTEM >>under /BLOCKS, it does say: This is the default. But I think that >>only applies if you say anal/disk/shadow/blocks without specifying >>either =all or =file_system... But /BLOCKS *is not* the default for >>anal/disk/shadow, so it doesn't matter what the default style of >>/blocks is if you don't specify it at all. >> >>In my experience, it (without the /blocks) has always compared >>everything. >> >> >>>But I will try it. >> >>-- >>John- Hide quoted text - >> >>- Show quoted text - > > > I tried /blocks=file > > got the same result. It failed with a parity error. It produced an > error on each disk in the error log at the same LBN. But the LBN for > the error is not in a file according to DFU. > > So the explanation of you and Volker don't hold water. Still a > mystery why anal/disk/shad/block=file get a parity error on a block > that is not in a file according to DFU. Another possibility: Judging by the number of I/O's required to do a full shadow comapare, ana/disk/shadow is using very big buffers and reading a lot with each I/O. Maybe it still does the same with /blocks=file, and what you are seeing is bad blocks in the same "chunk" as some file, though not necessarily in a file. A third possibility: A bug. -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:56:21 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Buying disks for DS10s Message-ID: <47C5B255.50403@comcast.net> yyyc186 wrote: > On Feb 26, 8:15 am, tadamsmar wrote: > > >>>>Can you switch to IDE? >>> > > If you like watching ice melt while waiting for a file to write. I > moved my boot disk to SCSI and only use my big IDE disk for archiving > stuff. > > >>Seem to be 80-pin SCSI disk drives out there, but do all 80-pin SCSI >>drives work with all controllers. What's the "3" in SCSI 3 all about. > > > There are many different SCSI connections. You want to avoid like the > plague those "refurbished Fujitsu" without a label you see dirt cheap > on eBay. I bought a bunch of them and gave all but two away. Yes, > they replaced the spindle, but they pooched the logic card on EVERY > ONE. They will not play well with any other SCSI device. You cannot > introduce them to a currently stable SCSI chain and expect the chain > to still work. I did manage to get two of them to work...after > installing 3 TERMINATORS...don't ask...it defies ALL logic and law of > electronics. They are extremely fast, but not worth the ulcers. > > Your best bet would be to call David at Island Computer and see what > he has for you. If you don't already know the difference between > SCSI-2 and SCSI-3, you are skilled enough to be buying SCSI drives on > eBay or from anywhere else. I have yet to buy a "cheap" "refurbished" > SCSI drive and have it actually "work". I've been using SCSI since > the days of the 386-SX and Netware 2.11. > > Here is a much better question: > > Has anyone tried any of those 2TB network enclosures you see being > sold at places like Microcenter? They claim to have a Gigabit > interface. I was wondering if they could be made to play with a DS10 > running a hobbiest license. I don't mind leaving the boot disk on the > DS10, but was thinking it would make getting 2TB of storage worth > while if I could spread it across many machines. > I have read that the "NAS" drives will do either FTP or "Samba". I have one that I use with my PC. I have not tried to use it with my VMS or Solaris boxen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 06:21:43 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Did I miss Infiniband clusters? Message-ID: Hi Norm, > IIRC it never reached critical mass and was dropped. Isn't the current > plan to use IP? You're ringing more bells, (something like ultra-wide area clusters?) but I still can't find anything about it in the road-maps. Maybe they canned it? Ah, what does IBM know anyway? It's not all about profit and share-price. I mean they backed Eclipse, like Adobe and everyone else, while we went NetBeans, and aren't they gonna feel silly when we come out with the best HD-DVD drivers around? Cheers Richard Maher PS. Why are your posts always in rcih (and very small) test? wrote in message news:OFCEECF995.DB057366-ON852573FC.004C10B7-852573FC.004C2E64@metso.com... Rich Jordan wrote on 02/26/2008 05:41:29 PM: > On Feb 26, 4:41 pm, "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > IIRC there was talk a while back of HP working on Infiniband as a cluster > > interconnect; whatever happened to that? It's just that someone in the > > c.l.cobol conference posted a couple of IBM links and it jogged my memory. > > Maybe some kick-arse Orrible Oracle Cache-Fusion stats for VMS clusters > > would go someway to highlighting Rdb's unhealthy and misguided obsession > > with single-node configurations? > > > > HARDWARE: > > IBM System z10 Enterprise Class -- The forward-thinking mainframe for the > > twenty-first century > > > > http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10577_2548_62970_email_DYN_1IN/WKle... > > > > OPERATING SYSTEM (preview) > > Preview: z/OS V1.10 -- Raising the bar and redefining scalability, > > performance, availability, and economics > > > > http://www.ibm.com/vrm/newsletter_10577_2548_63032_email_DYN_1IN/WKle... > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > I think I remember a seminar some years ago down in the chi-pit here > in ill annoy where Terry Shannon was present and infiniband and ZLE > were discussed as up and coming. Never heard about it again though. IIRC it never reached critical mass and was dropped. Isn't the current plan to use IP? ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 2008 13:52:11 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Message-ID: <1ACThO20StFy@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <62j5q2F23lvvgU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Does anyine remember if Eunice had fork()? > Eunice had a csh and some things that could be done as cover routines to VMS, but a working fork() would require modifying the VMS kernel's I/O subsystem. Which is why the C RTL doesn't have a true fork(), either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:43:35 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <62j5q2F23lvvgU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >>Does anyine remember if Eunice had fork()? >> > > > Eunice had a csh and some things that could be done as cover routines > to VMS, but a working fork() would require modifying the VMS kernel's > I/O subsystem. > Not necessarily! It depends on the implementation. Fork() could record the current I/O state of all the open channels, pass it to the spawned process, and during startup, replicate the i/o state. To do this it would probably have to bypass RMS and VMS file and record locking and roll its own io subsystem (using QIOs), which would also have to be part of its Unix-emulating I/O library. Or, in a totally different approach, it could not spawn separate VMS processes at all with fork(), but use its own internal scheduler and data structures to track which "processes" owned which I/O resources. (The second approach is basically running a virtual Unix machine within a single VMS process.) Both these approaches have significant resource and performance implications, but both could be done without touching the VMS kernel. > Which is why the C RTL doesn't have a true fork(), either. > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:52:06 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Eunice (was: Wollogong TCP/IP stack) Message-ID: <47C5CD76.9020709@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> In article <62j5q2F23lvvgU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu >> (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> Does anyine remember if Eunice had fork()? >>> >> >> >> Eunice had a csh and some things that could be done as cover routines >> to VMS, but a working fork() would require modifying the VMS kernel's >> I/O subsystem. >> > > Not necessarily! It depends on the implementation. Fork() could record > the current I/O state of all the open channels, pass it to the spawned > process, and during startup, replicate the i/o state. To do this it would > probably have to bypass RMS and VMS file and record locking and roll its > own io subsystem (using QIOs), which would also have to be part of its > Unix-emulating I/O library. Or, in a totally different approach, it could > not spawn separate VMS processes at all with fork(), but use its own > internal scheduler and data structures to track which "processes" owned > which I/O resources. (The second approach is basically running a virtual > Unix machine within a single VMS process.) Both these approaches have > significant resource and performance implications, but both could be > done without touching the VMS kernel. > > >> Which is why the C RTL doesn't have a true fork(), either. >> > > A Unix developer has to fork in order to sneeze! VMS developers have gotten along without fork without noticeable difficulty. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:14:15 -0500 From: "Carl Friedberg" Subject: Re: INIT/ERASE & DELETE/ERASE vs DOD erase/format standard Message-ID: <890539d90802271114l47bdc58tb45b309aa605c70e@mail.gmail.com> in case you are wondering how to slag it: From Martin Focazio on the WWWAC mailing list: " Here's how to properly get rid of an old hard drive. I've used this device, it's very, very effective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQYPCPB1g3o " you might also be interested in seeing the same approach applied to engine blocks, couches and refrigerators (fridges, or iceboxes as we knew them) (see under related videos on the right) Enjoy. Carl ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:33:31 +0100 From: Marc Van Dyck Subject: Re: INIT/ERASE & DELETE/ERASE vs DOD erase/format standard Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen expressed precisely : > In article > , > "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" writes: > >> Does anybody know how the ERASE option compares to the DOD standard? > > Interpretation of any DoD standards is up to your DAA. > >> Does the /ERASE option meet the DOD standard?? > > VMS provides a callout for site-specific erasure pattern code. > You can tailor support to meet interpretations of your DAA, > up to the point where the requirements from your DAA are > "slag it", in which case you do not need to write any code. > > But for the code situation, certainly a better solution is for > your DAA to specify a source of the callout code that is acceptable. DOD$ERAPAT.MAR, if I remember well ? I used it on VAX. Has it been ported to Alpha and IA64 ? -- Marc Van Dyck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:08:24 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c5b592$0$25433$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > ...and 20 years from now do you believe that there will still be a Weendoze > box that will run this? One needs to be aware of changes in technology. It wasn't that long ago that I went through hundreds of diskettes and copied relevant contents to a hard drive, since newer machines no longer have diskette drives. I have stuff on VMS that will be converted over to the Mac. For instance, I have some ALL-IN-1 databases/applications (using indexed files) that I will move over to the MAC on whatever application framework I will choose. And if/when I move from Mac to something else, those apps will have to be converted again. But there is much older stuff I wish to keep as an archive and won't get converted to the mac. But if someone needs some example on how to do X on VMS, I would be able to pull it out of the archive and provide it. Once my VMS systems are gone some time down the road, I don't wish to have to continue to maintain some virtualised VMS instance just to access certain files. Based on what I have heard, ZIP may be the answer to this. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 2008 14:09:55 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <7+L9LIQFuHNe@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <47c4a6cf$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > > Pure test stuff: > best: > text files with CRLF delimter > second best: > zip No, no, no. You need to store your data as 80 byte physical records in EBCDIC on an 800 BPI 9-track tape. Anybody can read those. Oh, I guess things change. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Feb 2008 14:20:28 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <4uhokFXTXikB@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <62lbcfF22a0a1U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Sadly, there is a much better chance of that than a VMS system still > in operation. :-( 20 years from now there will be a VAX still running VMS. Maybe an Alpha. Perhaps even an Itanium. Those things just keep running. And Windows still might be around. Windows-BC will require an Intel P-92 IA-32-128 chip with a minimum of 16 cores, 256TB RAM, a 98QB disk, and 3 monthly security patches. MS-Office-BC will provide a version of Word that can handle up to 75KB of text before it hangs. This will store in a 1TB .docxz file. And you will routinely exchange data by plugging in your 5TB UPB (Ultimate Parallel Bus) pin drive (holds up to 19 angels on its head). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 15:47:10 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47C5CC4E.6080401@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <47c4a6cf$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > >>Pure test stuff: >> best: >> text files with CRLF delimter >> second best: >> zip > > > No, no, no. You need to store your data as 80 byte physical records > in EBCDIC on an 800 BPI 9-track tape. Anybody can read those. > > Oh, I guess things change. > In twenty years, will anyone care? ------------------------------ Date: 28 Feb 2008 00:03:12 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: Rich Alderson wrote: > Let me second the recommendation of SimH virtual disk and virtual tape > images. If need be, package a copy of the SimH souces with them. I personally prefer the TPC format for virtual tapes, as the tools exist for both VMS and RSX-11M/M+ to handle the format. Tools also exist to convert a TPC file to a SIMH virtual tape file. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a tool to turn a SIMH virtual tape file into a TPC file for writing back out to a real tape on a VMS or RSX-11M/M+ system. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:55:54 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c622af$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Rich Alderson writes: >> JF Mezei writes: >> >> .... >>> Since BACKUP save sets are essentially proprietary to VMS, one can't >>> move those savesets to a platform that will outlive VMS and expect to >>> ever be able to unpack those savesets in the future. >> .... >>> Any recommendation on which of those I should use, and whether there >>> might be other formats I could choose ? >> Let me second the recommendation of SimH virtual disk and virtual tape images. >> If need be, package a copy of the SimH souces with them. >> >> Use a ZIP or StuffIt! program to compress them for space savings, if you like. >> NB: StuffIt! provides tar, zip, and other archive formats as well as its own >> proprietary ones. > > ...and 20 years from now do you believe that there will still be a Weendoze > box that will run this? Neither tar or zip is windows specific. (but MS would need to make a real big fuckup to ensure there will be no Windows systems around in 20 years) Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:02:55 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c62456$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47c4a89a$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, > Arne Vajhøj writes: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> Fifteen or twenty years ago, there was an archiving format known as ARC >>> which has since been superceded by ZIP. Can anybody read ARC today? >>> Where will ZIP be fifteen or twenty years from now? Will there be a >>> readable copy remaining? Will there still be any old machines and >>> operating systems that can run it? >> ZIP can be read in 20 years. > > A pretty ambitious claim considering you don't even know the physical > medium chosen will be readable in 20 years. How many people today > have the necessary hardware to read 8" floppies? Or even 5.25" for > that matter? 9-track tape? All of those were still in use 20 years > ago and two of them were very common. Today? I only commented on the file format. The physical media is a different problem. I agree that it will be very difficult to find a media type that will still be in use in 20 years. It may even be difficult to find a media that will last for 20 years. I would not even try that. I would recommend keeping the stuff on current media and copy to new media every 5 year. Or something like that. >> The compression algorithm (not not the file format) has been >> standardized. > > Compress used to be a standard, too. Yes. And it can still be read. >> The file format is widely available. >> >> ZIP is a requirement for Java. >> >> ZIP is used in both ODF and OOXML. >> >> ZIP can be read in 20 years. > > None of the above guarantees that last statement. I think it does. It could happen that Java is completely gone in 20 years. It could happen that MS is complete gone in 20 years. It could happen that LAMP is completely gone in 20 years. But the chance that all 3 will happen is as close to zero as it can get. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:11:28 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c62656$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Stanley F. Quayle wrote: >> Fifteen or twenty years ago, there was an archiving format known as ARC >> which has since been superceded by ZIP. Can anybody read ARC today? > > Got it right here on my Winbox. Actually, it's PKPAK, which can read ARC files. There > was some legal battle over the name "ARC". And if someone does not have it they can get it: source at http://sourceforge.net/projects/ARC link to binaries at http://www.filewatcher.com/m/arc602.exe.138538.0.0.html But I wonder - I am 95% sure that I once had source code for a VMS version - where did that code ?? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:14:34 -0500 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c6270f$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <47c4a6cf$0$90267$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> Pure test stuff: >> best: >> text files with CRLF delimter >> second best: >> zip > > No, no, no. You need to store your data as 80 byte physical records > in EBCDIC on an 800 BPI 9-track tape. Anybody can read those. > > Oh, I guess things change. They do. But I think the big problem is the media not the format. ASCII/ISO-8859-1/UTF-8 text with CR LF as line delimiter will also be readable in 20 years. Just like EBCDIC text is readable today. 9 track tape is becoming very rare today. And would not be surprised if it was difficult to read CD's in 20 years. But stuff can be moved from one media to another media. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:19:11 -0500 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47C5E1DF.26585.C9E03E9@infovax.stanq.com> On 27 Feb 2008 at 18:50, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > And, believe it or not, if this involved classified data I can probably put > together a system at a secure facility to help them recover this data. If you don't have a clearance (DOE "Q"), they'll need to assign you a person with a clearance to make sure you're not accessing the data, just copying it. But all the people with the correct clearances are already working 100%+ on other projects. And that person would get no other work done while they're watching your every move. One group that has the equipment already was going to get me a clearance (yea!), but the firm managing the site changed and the new people sucked up all the available clearance slots (boo!). Jokingly, I suggested to another group that they could paint the disks with a magnetic solution that would let them read the bits under a microscope. Really had them excited until they realized 100 Kbytes is a lot of bits. They finally came up with the money to buy the appropriate 8" drives and a little VAX to run them. The first new policy put in place by the new management was that ALL data needs to be put up on the secure server. But no money was available to actually DO that. In fact, they got cut another 10% this year.... They could have migrated this stuff painlessly 20 years ago. My wife has quite a few 8- track tapes -- but we can't play them anymore... --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:36:28 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: Long term archiving of VMS stuff Message-ID: <47c65642$0$14996$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <47c55842$0$25047$607ed4bc@cv.net>, > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> ...and 20 years from now do you believe that there will still be a Weendoze >> box that will run this? > > Sadly, there is a much better chance of that than a VMS system still > in operation. :-( > > bill > I am quite sure that VMS will be running by that time. There are still several PDP's (they aren't running VMS, of course) in production and they have been running more than 20 years since they were commissioned. Even more VAXen are used in production and many of them has been running for 20 years and will run for years to come. I think I'll be retired before the last ones will be decommissioned. Kari ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 13:50:38 -0800 (PST) From: Dean Woodward Subject: Re: Samba and text files Message-ID: <9550d1bd-0b0a-4a29-b500-fed97a5f0900@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Feb 26, 10:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > Dean Woodward writes: > > Yeah, well, I bet nobody's seriously looked at notepad since Windows > > 3.1. It works for them, why fix it? Myself, I use PSPad, a decent free > > text editor. I digress. > > You can't believe how funny this sounds. No wonder the industry has stopped > taking VMS people seriously. Notepad isn't btoken, people. It does exactly > what it was designed to do. Is that not what I said? "It works for them, why fix it?" I wrote. > The fact that it can not deal with non MSDOS > files is not a bug. No. It's a shortcoming, but not a bug. Brain-damaged it may be, but brain-damaged by design. > Gees.... At least in the early days of IT we knew enough not to expect > systems automagically convert all our files for us. And nowadays, Windows admins think data files are generated in word processors. Back on topic (for me), I'm not dealing with a Samba issue. I'm sending the file sftp. Theoretically, VMS's implementation of sftp knows how to deal with that, with an extra 'ascii' command and parameters to that for how to terminate records. So VMS is, after all, understanding that it needs to translate files when sending them to other OSes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 17:12:37 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Samba and text files Message-ID: <47c5e099$0$1440$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Just a comment. TCPIP Services' NFS server is able to convert VMS text files into unix text files on the fly. (there are a couple of bugs, but the functionality generally works). So, on a MAC I can edit a text file served via NFS on a VMS system, and the MAC (usually) doesn't see any of the variable length record format stuff. Since Samba operates are rougly the same level of abstraction, I would have expected that the VMS side of Samba would have provided text file conversion on the fly, like its NFS sibbling does. Then again, Samba emulates a microsoft protocol and that protocol may have been designed to prevent interoperability between non-Microsoft products. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:40:45 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Samba and text files Message-ID: On Feb 27, 8:53 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > AEF writes: > > > > > On Feb 26, 2:22 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , > >> Dean Woodward writes: > > >> > On Feb 24, 2:50 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> >> In article , moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > >> >> >{...snip...} > >> >> >This may actually not be an issue after all. I've been checking regular > >> >> >(created with EDT) text files with Notepad from a PC to see if things > >> >> >worked. I read that Notepad is rather brain damaged when working with > >> >> >Samba-served files so I opened a file with Wordpad, and it works correctly. > >> >> >Other tools seem to work as well. > > >> >> Something brain damaged in Weendoze? Who'd of thunk it? > > >> > Yeah, well, I bet nobody's seriously looked at notepad since Windows > >> > 3.1. It works for them, why fix it? Myself, I use PSPad, a decent free > >> > text editor. I digress. > > >> You can't believe how funny this sounds. No wonder the industry has stopped > >> taking VMS people seriously. Notepad isn't btoken, people. It does exactly > > > Say what? People don't take VMS seriously because a brain-dead editor > > can't read some files transfered by a brain-dead transfer protocol? > > Say what? Notepad? > > No, that's not what I said. The IT industry doesn't take VMS upporters > (and, as a result, VMS) seriously because they frequently make statements > the originakl in this thread thus demonstrating how little they really > understand the industry outside of their little legacy world. Read my > lips - Just because Notepad doesn't edit files it was not designed to > edit it doesn't mean their is a bug or even a shortcoming in Notepad. > It means the user chose the wrong tool for the job. Now, who's fault > is that? What does "statements the originakl" mean? It's a shortcoming. Just like EDT not being able to handle lines longer than 255 chars is a shortcoming. Just like EVE/TPU not having an equivalent of EDT's SET NOTRUNCATE is a shortcoming. (In fact, I made good use of SET NOTRUNCATE just today! I could look at the early and later fields of the same long lines at the same time without scrolling back and forth [which still wouldn't let me see them at the same time].) Whose fault is it? Well, I'd tend to blame the user for not trying other programs, but MS is not entirely blameless here. But I'm already aware of the various line terminator habits of the various MS "editors", so maybe I should recuse myself! > > > > > IT worker: Hey boss, let's by some VMS systems. > > > Boss: No you idiot. If I transfer files from there to Notepad via > > SAMBA, I won't be able to read them in Notepad! I want a system that > > can work with Notepad!!! All out clients are always using Notepad. > > Notepad forever!!! > > Truer than you care to accept. Or haven't you noticed that the > system of choice throughout the IT world is the one that has files > that work with Notepad. :-) People like junk. Nothing new there. Just look at the entertainment industry! > > > > >> what it was designed to do. The fact that it can not deal with non MSDOS > >> files is not a bug. Other editors suffer the same kinds of problems like > >> opening a MSDOS file in (real) vi. Ever notice all those ^M at thend of > >> every line? Of course, EMACS automatically converts all of these formats > >> but that's probably because it's internal format is linked-list rather > >> than record format. > > > Like I said in my other posts in this thread, Notepad accepts only > > pairs as line terminators, but nothing else. > > As it was designed to do. So, where is the bug or shortcoming in that? > If you want to edit files with other record separators choose an editor > that was designed to do that. How hard is that to understand? Notepad was designed to be very limited. It's value is basically near zero. It's good for quick short edits of, say, HOSTS. files, and that's about it. It's poorly designed, prints crappily, and I can't remember the other things I hate about it. You're right. It was designed to be crappy, and it does what it was designed to do: be a crappy editor. And if that's the right tool for the job, go for it! Oh, I'm writing this in Wordpad. I wouldn't dream of doing it in Notepad. I can't recall exactly why, but I'm sure it's much easier in Wordpad. (Well, I do have to click File, New, Text every time I start a new file to get into fixed-width text mode, but that's a small, small price to pay for *some* sanity -- but one fat- finger can put in a bullet and indentations I recently had to back out of. I want plain text and I want it to stay plain text without having to deal with Notepad!) > > > OTOH, Wordpad > > and Word can accept that AND or as line terminators. > > So then, where is the problem? MS provided the tools to use when Notepad > is not the right one. Sure makes perfect sense to me. Notepad is brain-damaged for other reasons. Note that I posted what each program treats as line delimiters (Notepad, Wordpad, and Word) in other posts in this thread. > > > > > When I FTP a variable-length file from VMS to Windows (using MS-DOS > > FTP) it works fine in all three programs: Notepad, Wordpad, and Word. > > The resultant file contains pairs as line terminators. Oh, > > and MS-DOS EDIT likes LF and CRLF, but not CR or LFCR. This is a > > reason to take Microsoft seriously? > > Why would you think the opposite is true? MS doesn't use those formats You're the one favoring MS. I don't know why. > so why should they worry about support for them? IBM mainframes used To have a reasonably self-consistent spec for what constitutes a text file. Furthermore, it would be nice to have an editor in Windows in which each line really is its own record, but I think I ran into a case where even Notepad failed badly at that. Maybe EDIT passes that test, but then why even have the destabilizing GUI? And if they're abandoning Notepad ala EDT, then they shouldn't make it the default program for .TXT files. (Well, at least now it's not a RPITA to change default programs for different file types!) > EBCIDIC and Univac 1100's used Fielddata. Is it somehow a bug or even > a shortcoming that they didn't (don't?) use ASCII? I have bad news > for you. The whole world is not using VMS. As a matter of fact, it > is rapidly becoming the most irrelevant OS on the planet. And blaming > other OSes for VMS's shortcomings (ie. not using the formats other > systems use rather than their wierd RMS stuff) is just as much a short- > coming in VMS as it is any other OS. Oh, so when EBCIDIC and Univac do something different it's fine by you. But when VMS does something different it's a shortcoming. You can't have it both ways. And it's Samba that's screwing this up, not VMS. MS-DOS's own FTP client handles it just fine. (Well, at least going from VMS to Windows. I think there are some problems with extra long records going the other way, but a reasonably "normal", "proper" text file comes across okay. Well, I think the transfer is okay for extra long records except that I want them to "wrap" normally after they come across. Looks like I'll have to write something to do that, but maybe not. I think I tried the wrap function but for some reason I can't recall, it didn't do what I wanted. I'll worry about it the next time it happens.) The whole world is not listening to classical music. So what? The whole world is not doing amateur astronomy. So what? > > > > > I just tried FTP-ing an MS-DOS file to my account on a Solaris SunOS > > 5.8 box and vi reads it just fine without any ^M's. Maybe you need new > > FTP software. > > If you FTP files between dis-similar systems using ASCII mode the > file get's converted twice. Once to netdata format (which, by the > way, is the same as Unix format) as it goes out and then to native > text file format when it arrives at the destination. But then, the > original complaint was about SAMBA and not FTP. And, if you FTP a > text file in binary mode you deserve what you get!! Well, you mentioned editing other files on Unix with "real vi", I didn't. You didn't specify a transfer protocol, so I tried it with what I have and reported that I didn't see any ^M's. I do recall seeing them sometime in the past but do not recall the situation accurately enough to report it here. Also, I know what I'm doing with FTP's ASCII and BINARY modes. The only problems I have with that is that TCPware is a little too aggressive trying to do what it thinks is best based on a few certain file types, and, of course, the well-known .COM incompatibility problem. But the solution to both is to temporarily rename the file types to something non-standard at the appropriate stage of the transfer. Bill, I don't know why you seem to have such a vandetta against VMS (Or is it against its being mismanaged? Actually, I'm not quite sure exactly what your point is.) Maybe it comes from when you tried to make VMS more visible in the Computer Science dept. at your university and people in this newsgroup gave you a hard time about it when you asked for some help (IIRC). I think that if full-blown 30-second VMS- only ads were shown 20 times in the same Super Bowl with Mark Hurd himself proudly promoting VMS at least some people here would find something to whine and bitch about it. So don't feel so bad about it. I, for one, do appreciate your efforts for VMS back then! > > But people here should not feel too bad as this whole thing seems to be > an up and coming trend in the IT world. Just this week I have seen, in > other groups, a complaint that AWK couldn't deal with multiple byte > characters for which it was not designed to deal. And, even better, > someone who was complaining that the FreeBSD install was totally screwed > up because he had to keep switching CD's to install the packages he > wanted. There are ,at last count, either two or three CD's of pacakages. > And he thought it was FreeBSD's fault that the one's he personally wanted > were not all (with all dependencies) on disk one. I don't know much about Samba, but it seems pretty silly if it can transfer files from VMS to Windows and not make a reasonable effort to do it right. I need to know more deatils about this situation to make a fair judgement. > > In some ways I am glad I am approaching retirement. Things do not look > well for the future of this industry. Hey, at least the right high-def DVD format won. Who wants another stupid name that HD DVD is? DVD is bad enough. Speaking of bad names, ever notice that MS product names show little or no imagination? Like, what's their money program called? Or word processor program? OK, Excel isn't obvious, but it's certainly not original! Imagine if MS made a car. They'd call it "Microsoft Car"! Actually, this makes it more like photography. What does the enlarger do? It enlarges the photo! Well, duh! And how about the developer, or the stop bath. OK, the fixer bath may be a mystery to some but it fixes the print or film so that you can turn on the light without darkening it any more. And guess what the focusing knob, print washer, and print dryer do? Piece of cake! > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include AEF ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Samba and text files Message-ID: <9cbb0b7a-474a-43aa-8318-b0ac092a1bd0@n77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Feb 27, 9:41 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <62l8bkF2466h...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >In article , > > AEF writes: > >> On Feb 26, 2:22 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >>> In article , > >>> Dean Woodward writes: > > >>> > On Feb 24, 2:50 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >>> >> In article , moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > >>> >> >{...snip...} > >>> >> >This may actually not be an issue after all. I've been checking regular > >>> >> >(created with EDT) text files with Notepad from a PC to see if things > >>> >> >worked. I read that Notepad is rather brain damaged when working with > >>> >> >Samba-served files so I opened a file with Wordpad, and it works correctly. > >>> >> >Other tools seem to work as well. > > >>> >> Something brain damaged in Weendoze? Who'd of thunk it? > > >>> > Yeah, well, I bet nobody's seriously looked at notepad since Windows > >>> > 3.1. It works for them, why fix it? Myself, I use PSPad, a decent free > >>> > text editor. I digress. > > >>> You can't believe how funny this sounds. No wonder the industry has stopped > >>> taking VMS people seriously. Notepad isn't btoken, people. It does exactly > > >> Say what? People don't take VMS seriously because a brain-dead editor > >> can't read some files transfered by a brain-dead transfer protocol? > >> Say what? Notepad? > > >No, that's not what I said. The IT industry doesn't take VMS upporters > >(and, as a result, VMS) seriously because they frequently make statements > >the originakl in this thread thus demonstrating how little they really > >understand the industry outside of their little legacy world. Read my > >lips - Just because Notepad doesn't edit files it was not designed to > >edit it doesn't mean their is a bug or even a shortcoming in Notepad. > >It means the user chose the wrong tool for the job. Now, who's fault > >is that? > > This isn't a VMS issue Bill. SAMBA, not VMS, is serving these files! > > I tried this past summer to install SAMBA at a site as a replacement for > Advanced Server they were using. With A.S. they had absolutely NO issue > reading files served from VMS with A.S. HOWEVER, using SAMBA these files > were all mucked up. Now, you can potty-mouth VMS and detract its propon- > ents all you want, but the truth of the matter is that this is NOT a VMS > issue. Notepad can only read a select microcosm of formats. If they're > not exactly to its liking the result is gobbledegook. A.S. did translate > the files it was asked to serve to Notepad's liking and SAMBA could not. > > Alan nailed this one! Can anyone say SAMBA? Thanks! (Working with an invisible cursor here. Maybe I should copy this to Wordpad, but it will be short.) > > Now, I'll go back to corrupting files with vi by scrolling through them. Big laugh! Thanks. > ^^ > Gotta love linux! Sure it corrupts files but l@@k how popular it is! > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html AEF ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.117 ************************