INFO-VAX Fri, 03 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 422 Contents: Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: decnet only works one way ? Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Re: New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:50:13 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote on 08/02/2007 09:54:32 PM: > On Aug 2, 7:31 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > On 2 ago, 19:15, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe... > @langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > > > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx. > googlegroups.com>, apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > > > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm > suffering a HUGE > > > > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memo= ry. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > > > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > > > > What do you suggest ? > > > > > There's the freeware ADV_PIPE > > > > > available here: > > > > > > > > or here: > > > > > > > > If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on havin= g a > > > one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a= > > > foreign command.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - > > > > > - Mostrar texto entre aspas - > > > > I have adv_pipe in my system, but how append in a file ? > > > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:39 > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:43 > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day >> x.x > > Syntax error > > VAX1 =BB > > It's been a while since I last used adv_pipe, and I don't have it > handy on any system. Use the pipe separator to cause the output of a > command to be avaialable as the input to the next. VMS's sys$output i= s > equiv to *nix's stdout and sys$input is equiv to stdin. You don't wan= t > to "redirect" the output, you want to "pipe" it. > > Try the command some others gave you, except substitute sys$input for= > sys$pipe > > $pipe write sys$output "''f$time()'" | append/new sys$input x.x > > Otherwise, if that doesn't work, you'll need to read the help. > I don't recall if it was in V5.5-2*, but maybe SET PROMPT would give the timestamp information needed without any appe= nd.= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 12:50:05 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: Doug Phillips wrote on 08/02/2007 09:54:32 PM: > On Aug 2, 7:31 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > On 2 ago, 19:15, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe... > @langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > > > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx. > googlegroups.com>, apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > > > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm > suffering a HUGE > > > > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memo= ry. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > > > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > > > > What do you suggest ? > > > > > There's the freeware ADV_PIPE > > > > > available here: > > > > > > > > or here: > > > > > > > > If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on havin= g a > > > one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a= > > > foreign command.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - > > > > > - Mostrar texto entre aspas - > > > > I have adv_pipe in my system, but how append in a file ? > > > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:39 > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:43 > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day >> x.x > > Syntax error > > VAX1 =BB > > It's been a while since I last used adv_pipe, and I don't have it > handy on any system. Use the pipe separator to cause the output of a > command to be avaialable as the input to the next. VMS's sys$output i= s > equiv to *nix's stdout and sys$input is equiv to stdin. You don't wan= t > to "redirect" the output, you want to "pipe" it. > > Try the command some others gave you, except substitute sys$input for= > sys$pipe > > $pipe write sys$output "''f$time()'" | append/new sys$input x.x > > Otherwise, if that doesn't work, you'll need to read the help. > : I don't recall if it was in V5.5-2*, but maybe : SET PROMPT would give the timestamp information needed without any append. Of course I meant SET PREFIX= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 06:10:34 -0700 From: magalettac@hotmail.com Subject: Re: decnet only works one way ? Message-ID: <1186146634.804856.131330@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 3:32 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > In article <1185919598.486686.57...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > > > > > > magalet...@hotmail.com wrote: > >Sethostissue..... > > I believe everything to be configured correctly > > VMS 8.3 / decent_plus > > > Node A > >Sethost(to any node) no problem > > telnet out of this node (no problem) > > > >From any other VMS node > > Telnet into node A (no problem) > >Sethos into node A (hostcurrently unreachable error message) > >Sethos todecnetaddress (hostcurrently unreachable error message) > > > Node A just does not want to pick up the phone ? > > > Any ideas and Thanks, > >Carmine > > Check that all the nodes are defined correctly in MC DECNET_REGISTER. Do > this on every node. Then do a > > $ mcr ncl flush session control naming cache entry "*" > > again, on every node. > > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Some more information... This is definately a problem with decnet routing, I think I have seen this before. Same scenario >From node b set hos a (fails with node unreachable) telnet a (Connects) from node a set host b connects no problem now from node b set hos a (and it WORKS !!) logoff 15 minutes or so later set hos a fails again I am pretty sure it has something to do with the fact I have multiple ethernet cards on this system and only one csmacd circ excepts phaseiv routing ? When I try to enable the all for phaseiv routing I get a constraint violation. Any info is appreciated !! Thanks again.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:47:49 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: Is there any difference between $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT and $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* other than that the PURGE will leave one file, while the DELETE may not? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:48:41 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <39652$46b34e5d$cef8887a$22855@TEKSAVVY.COM> norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: > Is there any difference between > > $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT > $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* Not entirely sure but: DELETE will definitely look at the date for each individual file prior to deleteing it. PURGE *may* look only at the highest version's date before deciding whether to do a purge on that file name. This means that if you have a recent log file, PURGE might skip it and not delete any of the versions below it that are old enough to match your criteria. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 12:12:38 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: In article <39652$46b34e5d$cef8887a$22855@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > norm.raphael@metso.com wrote: >> Is there any difference between >> >> $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT >> $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* > > > Not entirely sure but: > > DELETE will definitely look at the date for each individual file prior > to deleteing it. > > PURGE *may* look only at the highest version's date before deciding > whether to do a purge on that file name. This means that if you have a > recent log file, PURGE might skip it and not delete any of the versions > below it that are old enough to match your criteria. Testing shows this not to be the case. All versions are checked against the date specification. The behavior is consistent with an implementation strategy of: PURGE /KEEP=n: Check each matching file (with an implicit ;* on the file spec) If it's one of the highest n versions, skip it. If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it Delete it. DELETE: Check each matching file (require an explicit version specification) If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it Delete it ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:34:07 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186162447.892823.123070@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 1:12 pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > In article <39652$46b34e5d$cef8887a$22...@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > > norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > >> Is there any difference between > > >> $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT > >> $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* > > > Not entirely sure but: > > > DELETE will definitely look at the date for each individual file prior > > to deleteing it. > > > PURGE *may* look only at the highest version's date before deciding > > whether to do a purge on that file name. This means that if you have a > > recent log file, PURGE might skip it and not delete any of the versions > > below it that are old enough to match your criteria. > > Testing shows this not to be the case. All versions are checked against > the date specification. > > The behavior is consistent with an implementation strategy of: > > PURGE /KEEP=n: > > Check each matching file (with an implicit ;* on the file spec) > If it's one of the highest n versions, skip it. > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > Delete it. > > DELETE: > > Check each matching file (require an explicit version specification) > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > Delete it Well, not quite: $ DIR BLAH.TMP Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] BLAH.TMP;9 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:20.13 BLAH.TMP;8 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:18.54 BLAH.TMP;7 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:16.95 BLAH.TMP;6 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:15.35 BLAH.TMP;5 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:13.68 BLAH.TMP;4 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:12.01 BLAH.TMP;3 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:10.33 BLAH.TMP;2 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:08.54 BLAH.TMP;1 0/0 3-AUG-2007 13:22:06.90 Total of 9 files, 0/0 blocks. $ $ PURGE/KEEP=3/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;4 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;2 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;1 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-TOTAL, 4 files deleted (0 blocks) $ With /KEEP=1 it would have kept all the files created after the time, which would be ;9 through ;7. Since we specified two more than one it deletes two additional files: ;6 and ;5. $ DEL/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP;* %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;6 deleted (0 blocks) %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;5 deleted (0 blocks) %DELETE-I-TOTAL, 2 files deleted (0 blocks) (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 11:18:02 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <1186101041.673010.153630@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Aug 2, 9:17 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1186010758.279252.53...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >On Jul 31, 9:01 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> In article <1185845107.304275.215...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >On Jul 30, 1:41 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> >> In article <1185733582.741490.41...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >> >> >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> >> >> >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >> >> >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a >> >> >> >> > steaming pile of shit. >> >> >> >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind >> >> >> >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle >> >> >> >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. >> >> >> >> >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the >> >> >> >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. >> >> >> >Again, I shouldn't have implied all Arabs. Those who offered >> >> >diplomatic relations (or whatever the phrase is) for returning to the >> >> >1967 borders took a big step in the right direction, though I think >> >> >that offer also has some serious sticking points (at least one, >> >> >anyway). >> >> >> >> Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? >> >> >> Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! >> >> >> This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel >> >> >> recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. >> >> >> >> See http://www.earlham.edu/~pss/yasser_arafat.htm >> >> >> >See >> >> >> > http://www.faithsforfairness.org/article4.htm >> >> >> >for the opposing viewpoint. >> >> >> I like the last line >> >> >> " >> >> Now that Arafat is dead, there are expectations of establishing a democratic >> >> and peaceful Palestinian state. >> >> " >> >> >> As I said before you can find pages on the web about the Palestine-Israeli >> >> conflict with all kinds of biases. One persons terrorist is another persons >> >> freedom fighter. In many many cases terrorists have gone on to become >> >> politians eg >> >> >> Nelson Mandela - Head of the ANC's armed wing >> >> >I don't know the details, but I don't think he murdered all the whites >> >after winning S. Africa. If the P's defeated Israel, they would kill >> >all the Jews, or at least throw them out tout de suite! >> >> Do you really believe that such a genocide could ever happen in the full glare >> of world attention ? As I've said before the statements of terrorist groups as > >Didn't stop those in Rwanda and Sudan. > Rwanda and Sudan were unfortunately out of site out of mind to most people in the US and Europe. Europe and the US still suffer from a sense of collective guilt over the holocaust any peace settlement negotiated by Israel with the Palestinians would be guaranteed by the US and Europe and hence would be very visible. The fact that the Middle East is also the source of all the three great religions of the west - Christianity, Judaism and Islam - whilst causing major problems in the region also mean that the region will remain highly visible so long as those religions continue to exist. >> to their demands often differ considerably from what they will eventually >> accept. Hard line policies and hyperbole about total destruction of the enemy >> are used to attract support and recruits. In a negotiated settlement noone ever >> ends up with what they initially demand - hence it pays to start out demanding >> much more than you will eventually accept. Unfortunately that also means that >> such negotiations, even in the cases where the final solution is pretty much >> obvious from the start, take a long time and a lot of effort to achieve as each >> party tries to appease their own hardliners and tries not to be appear to be >> weakly accepting what the otherside offers. > >Then why doesn't Israel do the same: demand the complete destruction >of Gaza and West Bank? > Saying it when you have the power to do it and not then doing it doesn't make sense. Actually doing it would mean that even the US would reconsider it's support. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >My opinion is that it's more than a bargaining position when Hamas and >Hezbollah demand the destruction of Israel. I think it's just >different in case. We disagree. > >[...] > >AEF > ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 12:20:14 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5hgkruF3ktbajU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1186101645.119981.124610@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Aug 2, 8:32 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1186099689.686037.158...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >{...snip...} >> >Ultra religious people of all types look down upon more secular >> >people. This is no surprise. >> >> 'Tis to me. It should be the other way around. > > Well, there's plenty of that, too. > > How can people in this >> day and age still believe in these silly myths to the point where they >> are willing to fight and kill and die for it. > > It's pounded into their brains over and over and over and ... over and > over and over ... and over again from birth. (OK, for nitpickers: not > quite from birth, but as soon as feasible, OK? :-| ) Actually, the human mind is so maleable that it takes much less than that. It is actually quite easy (and there has been researc h to prove it) and the best part is the victims never realize it happened and will swear to their dying day that it isn't true and they have not been brainwashed. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:21:58 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186143718.001676.23820@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 10:02 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1186100760.841524.157...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >> >In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >> >>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> >>> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >>> >> AEF wrote: > >> >>> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to > >> >>> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > [...] > > >> >What ?????????? > >> >You obviously know nothing about the IRA. > > >> I suppose I had better expand on that. > > >> The provisional IRA aimed to force the British out of Northern Ireland and > >> to setup a United Ireland. For 30 years they ran a campaign of terror involving > >> shootings, car bombings, larger scale bombings often using Semtex, and mortar > >> attacks. The majority of attacks took place in Northern Ireland and were > >> targetted at British soldiers and installations, Protestant/Loyalist Areas of > >> Northern Ireland, perceived collaborators and traitors, and the Loyalist > >> Terrorist groups which had sprung up in reaction to the IRA actions eg the UVF > >> Probably the most dispicable tactic used was the use of proxy-bombers > >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb > >> where an innocent person's family was kidnapped and threatened in order to > >> force them to become a suicide bomber by driving a car packed with high > >> explosives at British Army checkpoints or bases. > > >> As well as the attacks in Northern Ireland the IRA also launched a long running > >> campaign on the mainland of the UK. > > >> This involved > > >> Attacks on civilian targets > > >> eg > > >> Railway stations - London Bridge, Docklands, Victoria station, Paddington > >> station > > >> Airports - Multiple attacks on Heathrow > > >> Shops,Shopping centres - Harrods, Oxford street, Arndale centre in Manchester > >> etc > > >> Pubs - Guildford pub bombing, Sussex Arms Public House in Covent garden, > >> Kings head pub woolwich > >> etc > > >> Bus - M62 coach bombing > > >> Economic targets - Bombing of London stock Exchange > >> Bishopsgate bombing in the city of London > > >> Attacks on Military targets > > >> eg > > >> Hyde park bombing of Household calvalry killing two calverymen and seven > >> horses. > > >> Regents Park bandstand bombing which killed seven bansdmen from the Royal Green > >> Jackets as they played music to spectators. > > >> Attack on Royal Marine base in Deal in Kent resulting in death of ten bandsmen. > > >> Attacks on Governement, MPS and Queen's relatives > > >> eg > > >> Earl Mountbatten the Queen's first cousin killed by IRA bomb. > > >> Car bombing of Ian Gow MP > > >> Bomb attack on Houses of Parliment. > > >> Bomb attack on house of former prime minister Edward Heath. > > >> Brighton Hotel Bombing. British Prime Minister and cabinet escape with light > >> injuries after the IRA blow up a bomb at the hotel where the conservative > >> party are staying for their party conference. Several others > >> including Margaret Tebbit wife of Norman Tebbit were left permanently disabled > >> The prime minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escaped death. > > >> Mortar attack on Prime Minister and Cabinet at 10 Downing street. > > >> The IRA also attacked British army bases and personnel in other parts of the > >> world eg Germany. > > >> I think that's probably enough for now. > > >> David Webb > >> Security team leader > >> CCSS > >> Middlesex University>David Webb > >> >Security team leader > >> >CCSS > >> >Middlesex University > > >> >>> David Webb > >> >>> Security team leader > >> >>> CCSS > >> >>> Middlesex University > > >> >>[...] > > >> >>AEF > > >OK, they did a fair amount of terrorism. But let's look at another > >aspect of recent Jewish/Israeli history: > > >Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? > > Come on - the holocaust was a tragic event which noone should forget since > it should never be allowed to happen again. However it was 50 years ago and > cannot be used as an excuse for Israels treatment of the palestinians. > The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and was the culmination of centuries > of christian persecution of the Jews. The palestinians and Muslims had nothing > to do with the holocaust. I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course the Arabs/Muslims had nothing to do with the Holocaust. I'm just saying that this was part of Israelis' mind set about other peoples trying to destroy them. I'm using this to show why it's quite reasonable for Israelis and Jews to take threats of annihilation seriously and that I don't think anyone ever tried to demolish Northern Ireland. People always talk about Russia being understandably paranoid about invaders. Why not here? (OK, I'm sure there are differences with this, too. Just something to consider.) > >Did Ireland attack and nearly destroy Britain on its first day of > >existence as the Arab's and P's tried to do to Israel on its first > >day? > > The UK citizens of Northern Ireland did not suddenly find that the UN had > arbitrarily decided to give the land they have lived on for the past thousand > years to foreign refugees from around the world. > How would you have reacted if the UN did the same to your home ? It was only about half of the land. And the P's never had a sovereign nation there. It was under British mandate at the time, no? > > >Did Ireland nearly destroy Britain again like the Arabs (and P's?) > >nearly did in 1967? (Saved only by a miraculous air strike on the > >Egyptian Air Force). > > If the UK citizens of Northern Ireland had been forced to flee to refugee camps > in mainland Britain because the UN had forcibly setup a foreign nation on part > of the territory of northern Ireland then I am pretty certain that both > Britain and the Irish republic would have invaded that new nation. They had to flee only because the Arabs attacked on day 1. I'll reply more this weekend, but I just wanted to clear the air on these two things ASAP. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:28:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186144097.074324.176180@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 8:21 am, AEF wrote: > On Aug 2, 10:02 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > In article <1186100760.841524.157...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: [...] > > >Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? > > > Come on - the holocaust was a tragic event which noone should forget since > > it should never be allowed to happen again. However it was 50 years ago and > > cannot be used as an excuse for Israels treatment of the palestinians. > > The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and was the culmination of centuries > > of christian persecution of the Jews. The palestinians and Muslims had nothing > > to do with the holocaust. > > I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course the Arabs/Muslims had > nothing to do with the Holocaust. I'm just saying that this was part > of Israelis' mind set about other peoples trying to destroy them. I'm > using this to show why it's quite reasonable for Israelis and Jews to > take threats of annihilation seriously and that I don't think anyone > ever tried to demolish Northern Ireland. People always talk about > Russia being understandably paranoid about invaders. Why not here? > (OK, I'm sure there are differences with this, too. Just something to > consider.) Sorry, I meant, "People always talk about Russia being 'understandably paranoid' about being invaded". [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:18:57 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > You've never found a gun range in a city? Don't americans typically use schools as a gun range in the cities ? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:58:16 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <1186143718.001676.23820@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Aug 2, 10:02 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article <1186100760.841524.157...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >> >In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >> >>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> >>> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> >> >>> >> AEF wrote: >> >> >>> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to >> >> >>> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! >> >[...] >> >> >> >What ?????????? >> >> >You obviously know nothing about the IRA. >> >> >> I suppose I had better expand on that. >> >> >> The provisional IRA aimed to force the British out of Northern Ireland and >> >> to setup a United Ireland. For 30 years they ran a campaign of terror involving >> >> shootings, car bombings, larger scale bombings often using Semtex, and mortar >> >> attacks. The majority of attacks took place in Northern Ireland and were >> >> targetted at British soldiers and installations, Protestant/Loyalist Areas of >> >> Northern Ireland, perceived collaborators and traitors, and the Loyalist >> >> Terrorist groups which had sprung up in reaction to the IRA actions eg the UVF >> >> Probably the most dispicable tactic used was the use of proxy-bombers >> >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb >> >> where an innocent person's family was kidnapped and threatened in order to >> >> force them to become a suicide bomber by driving a car packed with high >> >> explosives at British Army checkpoints or bases. >> >> >> As well as the attacks in Northern Ireland the IRA also launched a long running >> >> campaign on the mainland of the UK. >> >> >> This involved >> >> >> Attacks on civilian targets >> >> >> eg >> >> >> Railway stations - London Bridge, Docklands, Victoria station, Paddington >> >> station >> >> >> Airports - Multiple attacks on Heathrow >> >> >> Shops,Shopping centres - Harrods, Oxford street, Arndale centre in Manchester >> >> etc >> >> >> Pubs - Guildford pub bombing, Sussex Arms Public House in Covent garden, >> >> Kings head pub woolwich >> >> etc >> >> >> Bus - M62 coach bombing >> >> >> Economic targets - Bombing of London stock Exchange >> >> Bishopsgate bombing in the city of London >> >> >> Attacks on Military targets >> >> >> eg >> >> >> Hyde park bombing of Household calvalry killing two calverymen and seven >> >> horses. >> >> >> Regents Park bandstand bombing which killed seven bansdmen from the Royal Green >> >> Jackets as they played music to spectators. >> >> >> Attack on Royal Marine base in Deal in Kent resulting in death of ten bandsmen. >> >> >> Attacks on Governement, MPS and Queen's relatives >> >> >> eg >> >> >> Earl Mountbatten the Queen's first cousin killed by IRA bomb. >> >> >> Car bombing of Ian Gow MP >> >> >> Bomb attack on Houses of Parliment. >> >> >> Bomb attack on house of former prime minister Edward Heath. >> >> >> Brighton Hotel Bombing. British Prime Minister and cabinet escape with light >> >> injuries after the IRA blow up a bomb at the hotel where the conservative >> >> party are staying for their party conference. Several others >> >> including Margaret Tebbit wife of Norman Tebbit were left permanently disabled >> >> The prime minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escaped death. >> >> >> Mortar attack on Prime Minister and Cabinet at 10 Downing street. >> >> >> The IRA also attacked British army bases and personnel in other parts of the >> >> world eg Germany. >> >> >> I think that's probably enough for now. >> >> >> David Webb >> >> Security team leader >> >> CCSS >> >> Middlesex University>David Webb >> >> >Security team leader >> >> >CCSS >> >> >Middlesex University >> >> >> >>> David Webb >> >> >>> Security team leader >> >> >>> CCSS >> >> >>> Middlesex University >> >> >> >>[...] >> >> >> >>AEF >> >> >OK, they did a fair amount of terrorism. But let's look at another >> >aspect of recent Jewish/Israeli history: >> >> >Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? >> >> Come on - the holocaust was a tragic event which noone should forget since >> it should never be allowed to happen again. However it was 50 years ago and >> cannot be used as an excuse for Israels treatment of the palestinians. >> The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and was the culmination of centuries >> of christian persecution of the Jews. The palestinians and Muslims had nothing >> to do with the holocaust. > >I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course the Arabs/Muslims had >nothing to do with the Holocaust. I'm just saying that this was part >of Israelis' mind set about other peoples trying to destroy them. I'm >using this to show why it's quite reasonable for Israelis and Jews to >take threats of annihilation seriously and that I don't think anyone >ever tried to demolish Northern Ireland. People always talk about >Russia being understandably paranoid about invaders. Why not here? >(OK, I'm sure there are differences with this, too. Just something to >consider.) > I don't exactly know what you mean by "demolish Northern Ireland". Northern Ireland was the result of the earlier partitioning of the island of Ireland into the Irish Free state and the six-counties. Both protestant loyalists (the majority in Northern Ireland) and catholic nationalists (the minority in northern ireland but the majority in the whole island) lived there together. Due to undoubted discrimination by the protestants in northern ireland against the nationalists hardline groups like the IRA gained support for their plans to use force to remove the six counties from the United Kingdom and to form a united ireland. To this end the IRA targetted the protestant community in northern ireland and targetted government structures there. When that didn't work they extended their campaign to the UK mainland where they targetted british citizens and the UK government. Neither the British Government nor even the Republic wished to demolish northern ireland. The IRA undoubtedly wished to demolish it in the sense of making it ungovernable and bringing down any UK or Loyalist governement however although they suceeded in destroying self-rule in Northern Ireland they were never strong enough to make Northern Ireland ungovernable or to destroy the UK government. As to your other point. The holocaust is pretty much irrelevant. Because of the way in which Israel was created on land which had belonged to other people for centuries it was inevitable that there would be violence. The partitioning of Pakistan and India shortly before the establishment of Israel graphically indicated the likely results as far as internal violence was concerned. In Israels case it's Arab neighbours were almost bound to react in they way they did - after all the Arab league and Arab higher comittee had rejected the partition plan at the UN. Hence after such a traumatic birth it isn't surprising that the Israelis would be fearful of their neighbours. >> >Did Ireland attack and nearly destroy Britain on its first day of >> >existence as the Arab's and P's tried to do to Israel on its first >> >day? >> >> The UK citizens of Northern Ireland did not suddenly find that the UN had >> arbitrarily decided to give the land they have lived on for the past thousand >> years to foreign refugees from around the world. >> How would you have reacted if the UN did the same to your home ? > >It was only about half of the land. And the P's never had a sovereign >nation there. It was under British mandate at the time, no? > Palestine was under Arab caliphate rule from 638 - 1099 ad. It was under Crusader rule from 1099-1187 ad. Saladin and his descendents then ruled but allowed the crusaders to stay in Palestine. For a period of ten years from 1229 the state was handed back to the crusaders under the rule of Frederick II. It was then under the rule of the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt from 1270 - 1516 ad Finally the ottoman turks took over in 1516 and ruled until 1917. Following the first world war the British and French carved up the ottoman empire and created the nations of the Middle East pretty much as they are today. The British Mandate of palestine was just another one of these regions. Arabs had been living in Palestine since the Arab caliphate as far as they were concerned it was their land irrespective of whether they were citizens of the ottoman empire or under the rule of the British Mandate. >> >> >Did Ireland nearly destroy Britain again like the Arabs (and P's?) >> >nearly did in 1967? (Saved only by a miraculous air strike on the >> >Egyptian Air Force). >> >> If the UK citizens of Northern Ireland had been forced to flee to refugee camps >> in mainland Britain because the UN had forcibly setup a foreign nation on part >> of the territory of northern Ireland then I am pretty certain that both >> Britain and the Irish republic would have invaded that new nation. > >They had to flee only because the Arabs attacked on day 1. There was also internal violence similar, though on a smaller scale, to that between Hindus and Muslims at the partition of India and Pakistan. > The Arabs attacking was inevitable because only the Jewish community accepted the partition plan. When the British government decided to withdraw from the Mandate of Palestine in 1947 and hand over to the UN they stated that they had been unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both parties. The UN had no better luck in finding a solution before the Mandate expired on May 14 1948. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >I'll reply more this weekend, but I just wanted to clear the air on >these two things ASAP. > >[...] > >AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:42:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 08/03/07 10:18, JF Mezei wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> You've never found a gun range in a city? > > > Don't americans typically use schools as a gun range in the cities ? Of course not. Gun ranges are known distance, have motorized target retrieval and try to enforce gun & ear safety rules. > :-) Smiley? I thought you were being serious. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:28:40 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Berryman [mailto:mark@theberrymans.com] > Sent: August 2, 2007 1:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Main, Kerry wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > >>Sent: August 1, 2007 10:29 PM > >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >>Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > >> > >>"Main, Kerry" wrote: > >> > > > > [snip...] > > > > > >>Notice the quote indicators. There's only one at the beginning of > >>the sentence > >>above; the rest of the lines break where Netscape thought they > >>should (as I'm > >>seeing it, writing this reply), but came into the news-server as > >>one long line. > >> > >>So, yes - that is how the Usenet world is seeing your posts. > >> > >>-- > >>David J Dachtera > >>dba DJE Systems > >>http://www.djesys.com/ > > > > > > > > I have set my client to wrap at 76 characters, so it seems various > newsreaders interpret things differently or Info-VAX is not handling it > correctly. > > > > As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile > ago, others with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. > > Those with graphic news readers will tend not to have an issue with the > format of your posts since such readers will reformat the text based on > local settings. However, those using character-cell news readers will > simply see one long line of text until a paragraph break is > encountered. > > Also, because your posts consist of one line per paragraph it tends to > make quoting your posts rather difficult and this is another source of > the complaints about the formats of your postings. > > This is a result of your choice to use a Microsoft client since > Microsoft refuses to adhere to the RFCs in this regard. > > This post was intended simply to provide some pertinent information. > What you choose to do about any of this is, of course, completely up to > you. > > Mark Berryman Mark, Thx for your help in identifying and fixing the Info-VAX issue. I will look into the line break issue. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:19:30 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186150770.861820.221140@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On 3 Aug, 02:58, JF Mezei wrote: > Mark Berryman wrote: > > However, there is nothing I can do about the fact that Kerry's choice of > > client does not believe in line breaks. > > But you could implement virus protection by simply not propagating any > message that was generated by Microsoft software :-) > > This way, people who insist on using non-compliant Microsoft crap would > not pollute the comp.os.vms/Info-VAX system :-) I don't know Kerry and I've not met him at any time, but what makes you lot who are having pops at him think he can control what software he gets to use within HP? I went through a number of weeks of testing emails out of HP's Exchange servers and mail gateways and came to the conclusion that some of the HP mail gateways do what you expect, some do what you want, and the rest do neither of the above. Kerry is probably stuck, to a large degree, with settings within the product suite that HP choose to provide him with. That's not his fault! That's corporate standards. Somehow, I doubt that HP's internal systems managers will be ready to change behaviour of systems or modify the application set on the standard desktop just because someone in comp.os.vms doesn't like the behaviour of Kerry's newsgroup or mail client. Live with it. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 14:21:17 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <5hgrusF3jv26aU3@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Berryman [mailto:mark@theberrymans.com] >> Sent: August 2, 2007 1:23 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> Main, Kerry wrote: >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] >> >>Sent: August 1, 2007 10:29 PM >> >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >>Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? >> >> >> >>"Main, Kerry" wrote: >> >> >> > >> > [snip...] >> > >> > >> >>Notice the quote indicators. There's only one at the beginning of >> >>the sentence >> >>above; the rest of the lines break where Netscape thought they >> >>should (as I'm >> >>seeing it, writing this reply), but came into the news-server as >> >>one long line. >> >> >> >>So, yes - that is how the Usenet world is seeing your posts. >> >> >> >>-- >> >>David J Dachtera >> >>dba DJE Systems >> >>http://www.djesys.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > I have set my client to wrap at 76 characters, so it seems various >> newsreaders interpret things differently or Info-VAX is not handling it >> correctly. >> > >> > As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile >> ago, others with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. >> >> Those with graphic news readers will tend not to have an issue with the >> format of your posts since such readers will reformat the text based on >> local settings. However, those using character-cell news readers will >> simply see one long line of text until a paragraph break is >> encountered. >> >> Also, because your posts consist of one line per paragraph it tends to >> make quoting your posts rather difficult and this is another source of >> the complaints about the formats of your postings. >> >> This is a result of your choice to use a Microsoft client since >> Microsoft refuses to adhere to the RFCs in this regard. >> >> This post was intended simply to provide some pertinent information. >> What you choose to do about any of this is, of course, completely up to >> you. >> >> Mark Berryman > > Mark, > > Thx for your help in identifying and fixing the Info-VAX issue. > > I will look into the line break issue. > You might look into getting your client to stop generating "mailto:" info (bogus or otherwise). No reason to willingly feed the addresses of c.o.v people to the spammers. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:29:51 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei writes: > from you. Which is acceptable. However, you really need to set your > software to wrap lines (CR-LF at the end of each lines). Your software > currently inserts CR-LF only at the end of each paragraph. One cannot quote the words of the master often enough: Nearly every internet application protocol (HTTP, FTP, NNTP, SMTP) specifies as the line terminator and nearly every unix-derived application screws it up at some point it its development. ---Dave Jones While we're at it, might as well quote another Mr. Jones: My pants are not as tight any more, I don't open my shirt so far and I don't pick up the underwear. ---Tom Jones acknowledges the passing of time > It also doesn't send the right image when you , an HP employee, can't > seem to figure out how to send standard-abiding messages. > > Now, HP, being a subsidiary of Microsoft, probably doesn't mind when its > employees send messages in Microsoft-standard format since it helps push > the internet towards Microsoft standards. But in a VMS group, you find > people who do not support Microsoft standards and want to see people > adhere to established real internet standards (which Microsoft doesn't > adhere to). Indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:30:47 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > I have set my client to wrap at 76 characters, so it seems various newsread= > ers interpret things differently or Info-VAX is not handling it correctly. > > As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile ago, oth= > ers with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. As the above shows, they are still being sent quoted-printable when there is no need to do so. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:58:17 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile ago, oth= >> ers with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. > > As the above shows, they are still being sent quoted-printable when > there is no need to do so. > And non-microsoft software tends to intelligently use quoted printable when it must, but splitting lines at word boundaries instead if the really stupid Microsoft way of just cutting a line at a specific location. Now, let me say this: It does not reflect very well on a computer company trying to be in the enterprise business when it cannot get its employees to adhere to the real standards. I would not expect Dell employees to know about internet standards. They are a pure wintel crap company. But HP has heritage that goes well beyond wintel crap and they should know how to send proper emails. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 17:42:22 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not* > format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it using tin > on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues. BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most definitely did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one line and finished at the beginning of another. Zane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:42:57 +0930 From: Jeremy Begg Subject: Re: New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Message-ID: <13b5hrash5qtp49@corp.supernews.com> Hi, Jean-François Piéronne wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > >>Any plans for >>$ HELP PYTHON >> > > > You can do: > > $ python -c help() > > This will execute the python help. In which case this should work for Tom: $ libr/help sys$help:helplib.hlb sys$input:/insert 1 PYTHON The PYTHON command invokes the Python interpreter. For more information, please type $ python -c help() Cltr/Z $  Or something similar. Regards, Jeremy Begg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:13:32 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Jean-Fran=E7ois_Pi=E9ronne?= Subject: Re: New Python 2.5.1 kit (V1.3-0) Message-ID: <46b2ffcc$0$19626$426a74cc@news.free.fr> Hi Jeremi, > Hi, > > Jean-François Piéronne wrote: >> Tom Linden wrote: >> >>> Any plans for >>> $ HELP PYTHON >>> >> >> >> You can do: >> >> $ python -c help() >> >> This will execute the python help. > > In which case this should work for Tom: > > $ libr/help sys$help:helplib.hlb sys$input:/insert > 1 PYTHON > > The PYTHON command invokes the Python interpreter. > > For more information, please type > > $ python -c help() > Cltr/Z > $ >  > Or something similar. > Very good idea, I will try to implement this in a future kit. JF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:12:39 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Message-ID: <1186128759.272691.245580@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 9:50 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > Is it possible? Reference? Paul, TAR tapes can be read with VMSTAR, as has already been mentioned. Fixed blocked tapes can be read with other utilities. Tapes conforming to the ANSI standard can be transferred using the conventional COPY command. A thorough reading of the MOUNT command, particularly those options relevant to tapes is called for (the HELP text or the documentation set). There are some hardware limits. Some IBM drives have historically been able to write tapes with odd block sizes, some DEC/Compaq/HP drives cannot. This is a hardware restriction. Check the documentation for the appropriate drive/controller pair. I hope that the above is helpful. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:26:19 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > I found that Alpha executables are about 3x those of VAX, This is mainly RISC as opposed to CISC. Even if CISC is inherently better, the longer time between design and fabrication means that, as long as Moore's law and current times to market don't change much, it will always lag behind RISC in terms of performance. Of course, memory is so cheap these days that this cannot really be a problem for anybody. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:20:58 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:26:19 -0700, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: > >> I found that Alpha executables are about 3x those of VAX, > > This is mainly RISC as opposed to CISC. Even if CISC is inherently > better, the longer time between design and fabrication means that, That is an unproven assertion. as > long as Moore's law and current times to market don't change much, it It isn't a law, of course, it is an observation. > will always lag behind RISC in terms of performance. I don't buy that. Of course, memory > is so cheap these days that this cannot really be a problem for anybody. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:33:24 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > I've no personal experience but I've read that Itanic has little or no > performance advantage over the best Alphas. This is no longer the case. From Greg Jordan's "OpenVMS Performance Update" session at HP Technology Forum 2007: "The current Integrity systems perform better than existing Alpha systems in most cases - often by substantial amounts, and with: o lower acquisition costs o reduced floor and rack space requirements o reduced cooling requirements" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:33:02 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:33:24 -0700, Keith Parris wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> I've no personal experience but I've read that Itanic has little or no >> performance advantage over the best Alphas. > > This is no longer the case. From Greg Jordan's "OpenVMS Performance > Update" session at HP Technology Forum 2007: > > "The current Integrity systems perform better than existing Alpha > systems in most cases > - often by substantial amounts, and with: > o lower acquisition costs > o reduced floor and rack space requirements > o reduced cooling requirements" Of course, performance isn't everything. Capability is far more important. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:43:35 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Michael Moroney wrote: > Will the Itanic upgrade pay for itself in reduced maint. cost or power > consumption (wait...Itanic power consumption...scratch that argument!)? While some of the earlier Itanium chips were high-wattage, in the latest generation of chips Intel seems to have improved the process to have much lower leakage current, so even with their higher performance the power consumption is lower than the older chips. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:27:26 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: <1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by MRV. And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer supported by Tektronics. These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS. I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers? I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application status report: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/partner_s.html which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication protocols, I think. But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work. Right, wrong, or depends? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:37:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: <3ceec$46b34bae$cef8887a$22646@TEKSAVVY.COM> tadamsmar wrote: > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication > protocols, I think. Lack of Integrity support may simply mean that a company that was active in VMS during alpha years is no longer active in VMS and didn't produce any paperwork stating its product would work on those IA64 things. In terms of going to those IA64 thing, you need to find out what communications protocol is used by those X terminals and terminal servers and if that protocol is available under IA64. $MC LANCP SHOW NODE $MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES If you find the node for the terminal or server, then use the command to display that nodes full characterictics. You'll need to manually recreate it on that IA64 thing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:09:39 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: <1186160979.837119.72660@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 11:37 am, JF Mezei wrote: > tadamsmarwrote: > > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on > > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing > > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication > > protocols, I think. > > Lack of Integrity support may simply mean that a company that was active > in VMS during alpha years is no longer active in VMS and didn't produce > any paperwork stating its product would work on those IA64 things. > > In terms of going to those IA64 thing, you need to find out what > communications protocol is used by those X terminals and terminal > servers and if that protocol is available under IA64. > > $MC LANCP SHOW NODE > $MC NCP SHOW KNOWN NODES > > If you find the node for the terminal or server, then use the command to > display that nodes full characterictics. You'll need to manually > recreate it on that IA64 thing. The terminal servers are under LANCP The X-terminals are under NCP I am not sure exactly what you mean by "the command to display that node's full characteristics" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:24:45 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: "tadamsmar" wrote in message news:1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by > MRV. > > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer > supported by Tektronics. > > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS. > > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers? > > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application > status report: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/partner_s.html > > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication > protocols, I think. > > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work. > > Right, wrong, or depends? > Because we had no idea who might still be using what... I caused a stink and made them port the LAT transport and the other jiblets that we shipped on Alpha... now does that mean it will "work"? Since we have absolutely no way of testing these things (heck, I've never even heard of most of Xplex) - the only way to find out is to try it. Try to set it up the same way as you would on an Alpha... of course it doesn't help you much if you can't get access to an Itanium. I can't help with that - but others who read here might be able to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:27:11 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: On 08/03/07 00:08, P. Sture wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > >> In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug >> Phillips writes: >>> Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>> cares what they run as long as they do the job. >> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) > > Going back a few years, SuSE did a CD which was a firewall. The general > idea was save the config to a floppy, write protect that, and the box > couldn't be written to. I fancied getting that until I saw that the > price was 1,000 USD. US$1000???? Wow!!!! What a rip-off. Such a technique is relatively simple. I'm sure you could still find community-driven CD-thumbdrive firewalls. > It had disappeared from their website last time I looked (a couple or > more years ago). > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:36:08 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: On 08/02/07 21:37, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:11 PM [snip] >> Why not? FreeBSD on x86 is Unix, and Unix is Unix, no matter the >> platform. >> > > Using a non-x86 system defeats an enormous number of script kiddies and > such. Not all that many bad-hackers have access to Power or Alpha or other > UNIX systems, they are tied to their Windows PCs. ;) Also, it often makes > it easier to detect issues like that. An x86 executable sticks out like a > sore thumb! Good point. An OS/CPU monoculture definitely is a bad thing. Which is why I mentioned FreeBSD instead of Linux. It (and OpenBSD and NetBSD) uses a different cc and libc, thus generating different entry points into libc, etc, thus effectively negating any binary rootkit aimed at x86 Linux. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 12:33:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hglkkF3ktbajU2@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >> >> Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >> cares what they run as long as they do the job. > > Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire > infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure > hope they keep up the OS patch level.) Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). Some of the most common firewalls on the INTERNET are actaully just Solaris boxes running a commercial application (with suitable changes to the base configuration as prescribed by the vendor.) I ran home built firewalls (built on top of FreeBSD) for our department for 15 years before we went with our first commercial box (Cisco). I never once had anyone hack the box even though I logged lots of attacks. The only reasons for changing to the Cisco box were performance and the University's desire to finally accept that we exist and should be figured into their infrastructure (but then, that was always politics anyway). bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 09:02:20 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <46B3275C.70509@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > >>In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >> >>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >> >> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) > > > Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless > you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no means "secure"! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 13:28:39 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: August 2, 2007 8:49 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > In article > t>, > "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anton Shterenlikht [mailto:mexas@bristol.ac.uk] > >> Sent: August 1, 2007 7:25 AM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 08:45:34PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> > > >> > It sounds to me like our friend here is involved in a "prove it!" > >> issue with > >> > the VMS systems, and so getting them up and running is more > >> profitable than > >> > worrying about SPOF issues right now; let the SPOF issues become > >> a problem > >> > for the "unix people" would be my way of handling it. > >> > >> that's about right > >> > > Anton, > > > > Is the concern the network folks have related to non-TCPIP protocols > on the=3D > > net or OpenVMS itself? > > > > If it is network protocols, they are worried about, then setting up a > priva=3D > > te VLAN for the cluster SCS traffic and restricting the primary NICs > to TCP=3D > > IP only would solve that. > > Sadly, that will not protect the bandwidth if they percieve the > protocol > as too "chatty". You would need an entire, separate physical network. > Which is, of course, also doable. > Huh? VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use a sep= arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen on the = main network. Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" > > > > If they are worried about OpenVMS security, I guess that is a an > education =3D > > problem. > > > > [Can't help smiling on this - what they are doing is like protecting > a poli=3D > > ce station by placing a rent-a-cop in front of it.] > > > >:-) > > Your opinion. The rest of the industry just doesn't see your "legacy" > product as offering any increase in security that it needs over Unix. > Of course, you have this notion that every Unix box ont he planet is > hacked at least 5 times a day and evidence to the contrary is just > swept aside. > Nope - never stated that. Linux I stated had 5-20 security patches per month and that is a fact as ev= idenced on the RH security web site. Anyone can go there and count them up = themselves. UNIX no. You are simply being to sensitive and feel you need to protect your preferr= ed platform. > > > > Here are a few security whitepapers that may be of interest to your > network=3D > > folks: > > > > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2896ENW.pdf > > This whitepaper presents an overview of OpenVMS security and its role > in en=3D > > terprise business continuity. The whitepaper supports the conclusion > that I=3D > > T environments requiring elevated security capabilities need OpenVMS > now mo=3D > > re than ever, whether on HP Integrity servers, AlphaServer systems, > or a co=3D > > mbination of both. (November 2005) > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/TCS_2004.pdf > > Techwise Research - This whitepaper provides a detailed comparison of > poten=3D > > tial vulnerabilities and security-related cluster crashes for HP > OpenVMS, I=3D > > BM AIX, and Sun Solaris Server Clusters. (June 2004) > > A lot of old drivel from a biased source. It is doubtful it was > accurate > when written, but it is rather long int he tooth today. Surely you can > do better. > > bill > Ok, so tell us where the report is in error. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 14:10:08 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hgra0F3jv26aU1@mid.individual.net> In article <46B3275C.70509@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >>>In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>> >>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >>> >>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) >> >> >> Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless >> you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). > > > Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug > which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. > > Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! > There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no > means "secure"! You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as the VMS community. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 14:19:02 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hgrqmF3jv26aU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu On >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: August 2, 2007 8:49 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> In article >> > t>, >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Anton Shterenlikht >> >> Sent: August 1, 2007 7:25 AM >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 08:45:34PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >> > >> >> > It sounds to me like our friend here is involved in a "prove it!" >> >> issue with >> >> > the VMS systems, and so getting them up and running is more >> >> profitable than >> >> > worrying about SPOF issues right now; let the SPOF issues become >> >> a problem >> >> > for the "unix people" would be my way of handling it. >> >> >> >> that's about right >> >> >> > Anton, >> > >> > Is the concern the network folks have related to non-TCPIP protocols >> on the=3D >> > net or OpenVMS itself? >> > >> > If it is network protocols, they are worried about, then setting up a >> priva=3D >> > te VLAN for the cluster SCS traffic and restricting the primary NICs >> to TCP=3D >> > IP only would solve that. >> >> Sadly, that will not protect the bandwidth if they percieve the >> protocol >> as too "chatty". You would need an entire, separate physical network. >> Which is, of course, also doable. >> > > Huh? > > VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use a sep= > arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen on the = > main network. > > Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) > >> > >> > If they are worried about OpenVMS security, I guess that is a an >> education =3D >> > problem. >> > >> > [Can't help smiling on this - what they are doing is like protecting >> a poli=3D >> > ce station by placing a rent-a-cop in front of it.] >> > >> >:-) >> >> Your opinion. The rest of the industry just doesn't see your "legacy" >> product as offering any increase in security that it needs over Unix. >> Of course, you have this notion that every Unix box ont he planet is >> hacked at least 5 times a day and evidence to the contrary is just >> swept aside. >> > > Nope - never stated that. > > Linux I stated had 5-20 security patches per month and that is a fact as ev= > idenced on the RH security web site. Anyone can go there and count them up = > themselves. Damn, now your starting to sound like Bob. Read my lips. VMS never reports to CERT so there is no way to make a realistic comparison. > > UNIX no. > > You are simply being to sensitive and feel you need to protect your preferr= > ed platform. Actually, I just attack FUD. > >> > >> > Here are a few security whitepapers that may be of interest to your >> network=3D >> > folks: >> > >> > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2896ENW.pdf >> > This whitepaper presents an overview of OpenVMS security and its role >> in en=3D >> > terprise business continuity. The whitepaper supports the conclusion >> that I=3D >> > T environments requiring elevated security capabilities need OpenVMS >> now mo=3D >> > re than ever, whether on HP Integrity servers, AlphaServer systems, >> or a co=3D >> > mbination of both. (November 2005) >> > >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/TCS_2004.pdf >> > Techwise Research - This whitepaper provides a detailed comparison of >> poten=3D >> > tial vulnerabilities and security-related cluster crashes for HP >> OpenVMS, I=3D >> > BM AIX, and Sun Solaris Server Clusters. (June 2004) >> >> A lot of old drivel from a biased source. It is doubtful it was >> accurate >> when written, but it is rather long int he tooth today. Surely you can >> do better. >> >> bill >> > > Ok, so tell us where the report is in error. Was done ages ago. I have better things to do than rehash the obvious. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:34:25 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W545166379_7236_1186155265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use a= sep=3D >> arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen on= the >> main network. >> >> Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" > >You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you >honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the >limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just >one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, >which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box >and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) Of course you get three 100mbs networks with three VLANS. What do you thi= nk switches are for? Or why they have high bandwidth backplanes? Essentia= lly the inside of the switch is a very high speed netowrk- even switches = rated at 100mbs have backplanes that are much higher speed than that. Oth= erwise what you have is essentially a hub. You only run into the situation you are talking about with trunked connec= tions where you are passing multiple VLAN traffic, and if you have that c= ondition on your server network, you have a bad configuration anyway. Or = if you are using 20+ year old network infrastructure, like CDMA based thi= n or thick Ethernet. I don't think there is any of that left around these= days. -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W545166379_7236_1186155265-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:42:13 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: August 3, 2007 10:19 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > In article > t>, > "Main, Kerry" writes: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu On > >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > >> Sent: August 2, 2007 8:49 AM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > >> > >> In article > >> > >> t>, > >> "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Anton Shterenlikht > >> >> Sent: August 1, 2007 7:25 AM > >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 08:45:34PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > It sounds to me like our friend here is involved in a "prove > it!" > >> >> issue with > >> >> > the VMS systems, and so getting them up and running is more > >> >> profitable than > >> >> > worrying about SPOF issues right now; let the SPOF issues > become > >> >> a problem > >> >> > for the "unix people" would be my way of handling it. > >> >> > >> >> that's about right > >> >> > >> > Anton, > >> > > >> > Is the concern the network folks have related to non-TCPIP > protocols > >> on the=3D3D > >> > net or OpenVMS itself? > >> > > >> > If it is network protocols, they are worried about, then setting > up a > >> priva=3D3D > >> > te VLAN for the cluster SCS traffic and restricting the primary > NICs > >> to TCP=3D3D > >> > IP only would solve that. > >> > >> Sadly, that will not protect the bandwidth if they percieve the > >> protocol > >> as too "chatty". You would need an entire, separate physical > network. > >> Which is, of course, also doable. > >> > > > > Huh? > > > > VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use > a sep=3D > > arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen > on the =3D > > main network. > > > > Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" > > You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you > honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the > limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just > one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, > which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box > and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) > I don't think you understand VLAN's and the way they work with normal route= rs today. > > > >> > > >> > If they are worried about OpenVMS security, I guess that is a an > >> education =3D3D > >> > problem. > >> > > >> > [Can't help smiling on this - what they are doing is like > protecting > >> a poli=3D3D > >> > ce station by placing a rent-a-cop in front of it.] > >> > > >> >:-) > >> > >> Your opinion. The rest of the industry just doesn't see your > "legacy" > >> product as offering any increase in security that it needs over > Unix. > >> Of course, you have this notion that every Unix box ont he planet is > >> hacked at least 5 times a day and evidence to the contrary is just > >> swept aside. > >> > > > > Nope - never stated that. > > > > Linux I stated had 5-20 security patches per month and that is a fact > as ev=3D > > idenced on the RH security web site. Anyone can go there and count > them up =3D > > themselves. > > Damn, now your starting to sound like Bob. Read my lips. VMS never > reports to CERT so there is no way to make a realistic comparison. > Sure it does. Hey, you are now starting to sound like Andrew. :-) > > > > UNIX no. > > > > You are simply being to sensitive and feel you need to protect your > preferr=3D > > ed platform. > > Actually, I just attack FUD. > But you simply use FUD (i.e. your personal opinion based on your personal v= iew of the universe) to attack what you think is FUD. Being a UNIX person, it is hard for you to understand how things are done w= hen you do not have a UNIX focus. > > > >> > > >> > Here are a few security whitepapers that may be of interest to > your > >> network=3D3D > >> > folks: > >> > > >> > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2896ENW.pdf > >> > This whitepaper presents an overview of OpenVMS security and its > role > >> in en=3D3D > >> > terprise business continuity. The whitepaper supports the > conclusion > >> that I=3D3D > >> > T environments requiring elevated security capabilities need > OpenVMS > >> now mo=3D3D > >> > re than ever, whether on HP Integrity servers, AlphaServer > systems, > >> or a co=3D3D > >> > mbination of both. (November 2005) > >> > > >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/TCS_2004.pdf > >> > Techwise Research - This whitepaper provides a detailed comparison > of > >> poten=3D3D > >> > tial vulnerabilities and security-related cluster crashes for HP > >> OpenVMS, I=3D3D > >> > BM AIX, and Sun Solaris Server Clusters. (June 2004) > >> > >> A lot of old drivel from a biased source. It is doubtful it was > >> accurate > >> when written, but it is rather long int he tooth today. Surely you > can > >> do better. > >> > >> bill > >> > > > > Ok, so tell us where the report is in error. > > Was done ages ago. I have better things to do than rehash the > obvious. > > bill Ok, Andrew. That about sums it up. Why bother with technical analysis when FUD is so much simpler and quicker = to generate? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:51:49 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <1186156309.343095.307570@g12g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 4:27 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/03/07 00:08, P. Sture wrote: > > > In article , > > koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > > >> In article <1186097570.039629.170...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug > >> Phillips writes: > >>> Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who > >>> cares what they run as long as they do the job. > >> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire > >> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure > >> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) > > > Going back a few years, SuSE did a CD which was a firewall. The general > > idea was save the config to a floppy, write protect that, and the box > > couldn't be written to. I fancied getting that until I saw that the > > price was 1,000 USD. > > US$1000???? Wow!!!! What a rip-off. > Today, it would be a rip-off. "Going back a few years," though, $1000 was not unreasonable for a commercial-grade firewall appliance that was less capable than today's SOHO-grade %50-$100 router/switch/FW box. Going back a few more years a VT-102 dumb terminal cost ~$2,500 and +$5,000 wasn't unreasonable for a good PC [oxymoron alert!] My HD TV would have cost at least 3x more had I bought it two year earlier, and not long ago the CD/DVD RW like that built into my lap- top would have cost considerably more than what I paid for the entire lap-top. Such is tech. How soon we forget. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.422 ************************