INFO-VAX Fri, 03 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 421 Contents: Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: CC: check the presence of functions and system #include Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Re: decnet startup failing Re: decnet startup failing Re: Hung TCPware or what? Re: Hung TCPware or what? Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Kerry needs a news reader (was: Stay on Alpha forever?) Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Save $000's on your maintenance contract Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Your Platform for Innovation - spigit.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Aug 2007 21:37:07 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <46b24e83$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <9plsi.23$b72.16@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article <1186060603.611891.242210@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, apogeusistemas@gmail.com writes: >Seems silly but.... > >$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > >FILE.DAT must be created first. No. Use APPEND/NEW -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:55:35 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: In article <46b24e83$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72.16@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>In article <1186060603.611891.242210@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, apogeusistemas@gmail.com writes: >>Seems silly but.... >> >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT >> >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > >No. Use APPEND/NEW Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering a HUGE amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:58:48 -0700 From: apogeusistemas@gmail.com Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186088328.113234.93590@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at (Peter = 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wr= ites: > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, apog= eusiste...@gmail.com writes: > >>Seems silly but.... > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering a HUGE > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)C= OM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... What do you suggest ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 17:15:43 -0400 From: norm.raphael@metso.com Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: apogeusistemas@gmail.com wrote on 08/02/2007 04:58:48 PM: > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at > (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups. > com>, apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering = a HUGE > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > > > -- > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > What do you suggest ? > Propriety forbids that I answer that....= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:29:13 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: In article <1186088328.113234.93590@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, apogeusistemas@gmail.com writes: > > >On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at (Peter = >'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: >> >> >> >> >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wr= >ites: >> >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, apog= >eusiste...@gmail.com writes: >> >>Seems silly but.... >> >> >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT >> >> >>FILE.DAT must be created first. >> >> >No. Use APPEND/NEW >> >> Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering a HUGE >> amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)C= >OM >> >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >> >> http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > >I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... >What do you suggest ? > $ OPEN/APPEND the_file file.dat $ write the_file "''F$time()'" -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:29:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > > > > >apogeusistemas@gmail.com wrote on 08/02/2007 04:58:48 PM: > >> On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at >> (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: >> > >> > >> > >> > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- >> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups. >> com>, apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: >> > >>Seems silly but.... >> > >> > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT >> > >> > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. >> > >> > >No. Use APPEND/NEW >> > >> > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering = >a >HUGE >> > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. >> > >> > -- >> > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker >VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> > >> > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >> > >> > http://tmesis.com/drat.html >> >> >> I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... >> What do you suggest ? >> >Propriety forbids that I answer that....= ROTFLMFAO!!! -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:15:46 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186092946.969515.298390@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at (Pete= r 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG = writes: > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, ap= ogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering a HU= GE > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > > -- > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot= )COM > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > What do you suggest ? There's the freeware ADV_PIPE available here: or here: If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on having a one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a foreign command. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 00:31:52 -0000 From: apogeusistemas@gmail.com Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186101112.928425.32350@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On 2 ago, 19:15, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at (Pe= ter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.OR= G writes: > > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, = apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering a = HUGE > > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > > > -- > > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(d= ot)COM > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > > What do you suggest ? > > There's the freeware ADV_PIPE > > available here: > > > or here: > > > If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on having a > one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a > foreign command.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - > > - Mostrar texto entre aspas - I have adv_pipe in my system, but how append in a file ? VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x VAX1 =BB ty x.x 2-AUG-2007 21:26:39 VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x VAX1 =BB ty x.x 2-AUG-2007 21:26:43 VAX1 =BB pipe sh day >> x.x Syntax error VAX1 =BB ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:54:32 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186106072.882268.264510@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 7:31 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > On 2 ago, 19:15, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe...@langstoeger.at (= Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.= ORG writes: > > > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>= , apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE FILE.DAT > > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm suffering = a HUGE > > > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > > > > -- > > > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS= (dot)COM > > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > > > What do you suggest ? > > > There's the freeware ADV_PIPE > > > available here: > > > > > or here: > > > > > If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on having a > > one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a > > foreign command.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - > > > - Mostrar texto entre aspas - > > I have adv_pipe in my system, but how append in a file ? > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:39 > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:43 > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day >> x.x > Syntax error > VAX1 =BB It's been a while since I last used adv_pipe, and I don't have it handy on any system. Use the pipe separator to cause the output of a command to be avaialable as the input to the next. VMS's sys$output is equiv to *nix's stdout and sys$input is equiv to stdin. You don't want to "redirect" the output, you want to "pipe" it. Try the command some others gave you, except substitute sys$input for sys$pipe $pipe write sys$output "''f$time()'" | append/new sys$input x.x Otherwise, if that doesn't work, you'll need to read the help. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:34:16 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: CC: check the presence of functions and system #include Message-ID: In article <1185924514.859336.285500@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Pierre writes: > > $ pipe lib/text/lis sys$library:decc$rtldefs | search sys$pipe name of the include> > On sufficently old versions lib/list and pipe did not get along, so you could get a false negative, try it and be sure. As for the actual routines in the library, compile something which calls them and look for errors from LINK. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:43:49 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: CC: xmlBufferWriteCHAR & xmlBufferWriteChar in the same source Message-ID: <4UDn$gI5dgsg@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1185995560.820118.283830@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Pierre writes: > in libxml2 2.6.29 (and in other versions also I think), in tree.c, > there are 2 functions named xmlBufferWriteCHAR &. xmlBufferWriteChar > > I compile with /NAME=(AS_IS,SHORTENED) but the compiler change le name > of the second function to xmlBufferWriteChar2 Look for a #define that changes xmlBufferWriteChar to xmlBufferWriteChar2 This may have been done to allow you to use the code with older RTL that would need the default /names=uppercase. I'd compile tree.c with the include files in listings, then search for a possible #define: cc /list/show=include tree search tree.lis "xmlBufferWriteChar"/exact ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:44:33 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: In article <1185557088.850076.325540@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, jhjr4381 writes: > LAT$STARTUP.COM is > commented out. TCPIP is not started at all either. the only thing I > see is an MC LATCP SET NODE/CONN=BOTH. OK, that does the most essential part of LAT$STARTUP. But LAT is still another protocol, not DECnet and not TCP/IP, and OBTW not routeable. So if there's a router along the way having LAT running doesn't help. And doesn't solve the original issue of having Reflection want TCP/IP. > "DEFE DECW$IGNORE_DECNET TRUE", Boy, theze systems have been "managed" as a real hack job. That statement prevents X11 windows on the system from using DECnet as a transport. > If I execute the lat$startup in systartup_vms.com on both nodes will > it allow users to log directly on to that system (A)? No. Your users need you to have TCP/IP running on the system, or set Reflection to use something that is running. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:08:34 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: decnet startup failing Message-ID: <1186096114.191515.282900@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 27, 12:24 pm, jhjr4381 wrote: > On Jul 26, 10:53 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Another thing: make sure DECNET is started early in the boot, prior to > > TCPIP services and LAT. DECNET changes the ethernet address of the > > interface. > > Upon further review.....here are the answers to questions asked: > > Users log on through network using Reflections > Reflections 1st choice is telnet > You also say TCP/IP is *not* started on the VAX. So, why are you worrying about DECnet?? Exactly how do you want the clients to connect? If by TELNET, then start TCP/IP and TELNET on the VAX. DECnet has nothing to do with TCP/IP. If the VAX doesn't have a TCP/IP stack and you can't get one, your other option is to install DECnet and/or LAT on the client(s) --- and that takes a separate license. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:36:35 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Hung TCPware or what? Message-ID: In article <1185544402.944836.191180@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > One of my MicroVAX 3100 Model 80's hung in HK recently. I can PING it, > but cannot open a terminal session. [...] > I'm still waiting for my HK compatriot to set up a console session for > me so I can force a crash dump. But until that happens, does anyone > care to speculate as to what has happened? Ran out of some resource. Crash dump analysis can tell you which. There may be a message on the console telling you which, if there's a real console. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:38:50 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Hung TCPware or what? Message-ID: <7QAauRfQL02W@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1185711179.914513.277930@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > Krap, I don't have SMISERVER running on this node. (I have no > VMSclusters, remember) > You can run SYSMAN over DECnet if you're not in a cluster, but it may need the same resource TELNET does. Might be worth a try. Or maybe you can poke around via DECnet task 0 (if you can to a system that has DECnet access to the hung system). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:13:12 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: In article , "Robert Jarratt" writes: > > >If you have a working RRD42 I would happily buy it. I do. In a previous post I said it is in an Infoserver 150VXT. I suppose I could cannibalize the IS 150 for it as I really don't use it anyway. I still don't understand why you would NOT want a newer RRD device. I think I might have an M38 around here too. I will verify if a newer drive would function in it and then we can talk. Contact me off-line about it. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:50:42 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: In article , "Robert Jarratt" writes: > I am a hobbyist and I have hardware limitations which mean that I need to > get VMS 7.3 installed on a VAXstation 4000 VLC for which I do not have a > bootable CD-ROM drive at present (working on this). I do however have a > working VAXstation 3100 M38 running VMS 7.3. > Much more straightfoward: Use sys$manager:cluster_config to set up a cluster with the 3100 as a boot server and the VLC as a satellite. Use the same command file to make a copy of the system disk on the VLC. Remove the extra root on the 3100 disk. Break down the cluster (or not), and set the VLC to boot from its local disk. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 20:39:28 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <5heto0F3jf65tU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Dirk Munk writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Dirk Munk writes: >>> By the way, did you know that not even all Jews are treated equal in >>> Israel? There are 'classes' of Jews, it all depends where your family >>> came from. Did they come from some poor underdeveloped country, and they >>> hardly had any education? Then you are a second class Jew I'm afraid. >> >> So, what are you saying? That there are no "classes" in the Netherlands? >> I've been there, I know better. The only places that have ever claimed >> to have eliminated "classes" were the communist countries and anyone who >> was not blind saw what a lie that was. (Hint: when did you ever see a >> picture of Gorbachev standing in line for his daily bread?) >> >> bill >> > I think you are intelligent enough Bill to know the difference between > "classes" based on ancestry and "classes" based on for instance your wealth. When one class looks down on another and treats them as inferior does it really make a difference upon what those class lines are drawn? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:12:52 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > But not in the *city*, for Christ's sake. > > Intelligent (and lots of not-so-intelligent) people relax by > shooting their guns where they are *supposed* to be shot: woods, > fields & gun ranges. You've never found a gun range in a city? ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:14:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <8RSggzhIQSxE@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <970d1$46aa2805$cef8887a$17184@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > You can't tell others they can't have while the USA insists that it > can have Sure you can, King George does it all the time. Doesn't work very well, but that's harldy unique for King George. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:18:19 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <7013$46abdbe2$cef8887a$8663@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > The USA ambassador to Canada stated categorically that non-citizens had > no legal rights in the USA. (trying to explain why the USA had kidnapped > a canadian at JFK airport and sent him to be tortured in Syria). The US Ambasador to Canada is a member of the Bush Administration which doesn't believe citizens have rights in the USA. Its hardly unexpected that non-citizens have no rights, either. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 18:57:07 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 08/02/07 17:12, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> But not in the *city*, for Christ's sake. >> >> Intelligent (and lots of not-so-intelligent) people relax by >> shooting their guns where they are *supposed* to be shot: woods, >> fields & gun ranges. > > You've never found a gun range in a city? Sure. There's one right down the highway from me, and another down the other side of the highway. In all seriousness, what makes you think think I limited my thinking that way? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:08:09 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186099689.686037.158390@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 9:55 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > Can you please give some detail on this water problem? > > I know that there is a fertile valley which Israel refuses to cede to > Palestine because it has available water in it. So? What about NEGOTIATIONS??? > > Say the USA were to be broken up. California would want to invade all > states through which the Columbia river flows because this is critical > to the survival of Los Angeles (and a lot of the rest of southern > california as well). > > > If you're > > talking about when Israel was still in Gaza, well, they're out now. > > No they are not "out". They widthdrew their settlements and detroyed the > homes. (is that spiteful or what ? why not leave the homes there for the > poor palestinians to use ?) However, there is still a lot of israeli > controls over the region, and people in gaza are still not free to move > to other parts of palestine, and Israel still controls much of the > financial affairs and taxes. (1.) I remember reading that the P's didn't want the Israeli homes as they weren't useful for their different lifestyle. (2.) I already answered the controls. It is because they keep on firing rockets into Israel proper and staging attacks. > > > Never heard of this. Can you elaborate? Just exactly how are they > > treated differently? > > There were 2 recent immigration waves, one from the former Soviet Union, > where the jews weren't considered "real jews" by many orthodox jews > since many of the rituals, banned under soviet era, had not been made > and the only indication of jewishness was some ancestral tree tracing > back a jewish mother/grand mother (always the mother's side). The less Ultra religious people of all types look down upon more secular people. This is no surprise. > orthodox ones argue that their offspring will be true jews and within a > generation, this won't be a problem anymore. Remember that in Israel, > there are the equivalent of religious extremists who really want strict > following of the jewish religion. They once tried to ban El-Al from > operating any flights on fridays for instance. These extremists havce a > strong political voice because they are almost always needed to help a > minority government stay in power. And they also often prevent advances > in the peace process because they don't see why Israel should have to > give up anything. So? There are extremists among the P's, too. And they're a lot more demanding I assure you! > > The ethiopian wave brought a lot of jews to Israel who are not very > educated and definitely not european and live very differently. Yeah, and...? > > Remember that Israel was formed as a glorified refugee camp to allow > european jews a place to live safely after what happened due to Hittler. > When the european settlers decided Israel should have an open door > policy for all jews, they didn't foresee a day where non-western jews > would want to move to israel in large numbers. Whatever. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:12:58 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186099978.921454.116520@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 10:07 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > During the 1980's, Arafat settled in Tunisia, after the PLO was forced > > out of Lebanon. There, he continued to direct violence against Israel > > from afar until the Oslo Accords in 1993 allowed the PLO to return to > > the West Bank and Gaza. The world believed that the Middle East was > > finally on its way to peace, but Arafat's message to his people was > > quite the opposite. > > This issue is more complex and clearly visible today. There are > different factions within Palestine. By throwing the PLO out, it causes > many other factions to form. Hamas for instance, which used to be like > the USA's "United Way", decided it would form a "terrorist" branch to > annoy Israel to no end to force some peace agreement. The United Way is composed of terrorists? > > When Arafat returned, it became clear that he didn't quite control all > those factions, and an order for a ceasefire wasn't necessarily followed > by all. > > And this is the crux of the problem. If you want the palestinian > terrorists to stop "annoying" Israel, you have to give them a BIG > carrot. (eg: an agreement agreable to even the more extremist parts of > Palestine). But Israel won't give such a big carrot until AFTER the > "annoying" has stopped. The only "carrot" big enough would be to turn over all of Israel to the P's. > > If Israel had a visionary dictator elected with a 10 year mandate and > absolute majority, the later could afford to make concessions to > Palestine and move the process in a very big way and then wait a couple > of years to see the peace dividends start to come in. Amusing. > > But in the current political situation, it is extremely > difficult/impossible for Israel to make any concessions to Palestine and > see a dividend within a short enough time frame to allow the political > leader to survive politically. > > What is needed is someone strong enough to implement some accord (like > the proposed one by the "quartet" in its entirety from Israel's side, > and convince Israeli citizens to bear with continued bombs for a couple > of years until the extremist movement in Palestine withers away once > more and more palestinians realise that even though Israel may not have > acquiesced to 100% of their demands, it was close enough to be > acceptable and their lives have begun to improve significantly. Ah, this shows your bigotry to the max in treating Jewish life as cheap. (I believe this is the second time you showed such contempt.) You know, some people don't like Quebec. Maybe they should do to Quebec what the P's do to Israel. > > The last part is extremely important, and would require arab states to > start to financially help palestine for building purposes (as opposed to > arms and explosives). And Hamas may return to being an aid organisation > like it was before (and still does that work). Very amusing. > > The current policy of "there can be no peace agreement until peace has > been reached" cannot work. > > It is like having a policy of not installing VMS on a machine until VMS > has been installed on that machine. I already answered this one in a previous post. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:17:39 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186100259.359374.79710@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > >> [snip] > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while, > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia. > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh. > > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just > > > >>> their first really successful one. > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro. > > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness. > > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!! > > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc. > > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol. > > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the > > > neolithic era. > > [...] > > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. > > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is > there? And just how were the passengers and crew supposed to know that this was a different type of hijacking? I don't recall all passengers being killed in previous hijackings. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except that it is useless when it's most needed. > > > Until 9/11, > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. > > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you > don't believe in consequences, do you?). You lost me here. I never said I didn't believe in consequences. Try again. > > > Are > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did > > you expect them to do? > > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command". > > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.) And YOU never made a mistake when YOU were responsible for something? Please. I suppose we should condemn the police who were gunned down by crooks while we're at it. And condemn all those commanders who lost ships and tanks and planes in all the wars. Gee, it was their responsibility not to get shot down and to instead destroy the enemy. Get real. Try again. > > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical. > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth > defending. Talk about utter nonsense!!! Try again. Actually, don't -- I'm tired of this nonsense. > -- > David J Dachtera [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:26:00 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186100760.841524.157840@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >>> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >>> >> AEF wrote: > >>> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to > >>> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > > >>> >> They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful > >>> >> negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a > >>> >> pre-condition for negotiations. > > >>> >Ridiculous. How do you negotiate with someone who wants to destroy > >>> >you? I don't think Hamas or Hezbollah even wants to negotiate. Fatah > >>> >maybe. > > >>> Although Hamas doesn't officially recognise Israel they definitely want the > >>> establishment of a Palestinian state and have recognised the existence of > > >>So why do they not make the right moves to make a state? They could > >>have had a state numerous times. > > >>> Israel as a reality both now and after the formation of such a state > > >>> see > > >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1802862,00.html > > >>It appears that Hamas did this under pressure from Abbas according to > >>this article. Now that Hamas has defeated Fatah in Gaza I suspect it > >>may not mean anything anymore. > > >>And why are they still firing rockets into Israel? They got their land > >>back. Why don't they stop fighting Israel and start building a > >>country? > > >>> and > > >>>http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-a-reality-hamas-leader-admits... > > >>This article seems to show the Hamas leader admitting Israel is here > >>to stay. But they still have their priorities wrong. > > >>> The only way out of this conflict is for bitter enemies to negotiate in good > >>> faith. > > >>Good luck. > > >>> Who would have thought that Gerry Adam's Sinn Fein and Ian Paisley's > >>> DUP could be working together in running Northern Ireland a decade ago. > > >>There's a big difference: Sinn Fein never had plans to kill all the > >>Britons and take over the UK. They had much more limited objectives. > >>Something about a parade in a certain town in N. Ireland and a say in > >>N. Ireland matters or whatever. Anyway, I make no judgments on that > >>matter in this post. I'm just pointing out the enormous difference in > >>goals. Too much difference to make this analogy useful. > > >What ?????????? > >You obviously know nothing about the IRA. > > I suppose I had better expand on that. > > The provisional IRA aimed to force the British out of Northern Ireland and > to setup a United Ireland. For 30 years they ran a campaign of terror involving > shootings, car bombings, larger scale bombings often using Semtex, and mortar > attacks. The majority of attacks took place in Northern Ireland and were > targetted at British soldiers and installations, Protestant/Loyalist Areas of > Northern Ireland, perceived collaborators and traitors, and the Loyalist > Terrorist groups which had sprung up in reaction to the IRA actions eg the UVF > Probably the most dispicable tactic used was the use of proxy-bombers > seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb > where an innocent person's family was kidnapped and threatened in order to > force them to become a suicide bomber by driving a car packed with high > explosives at British Army checkpoints or bases. > > As well as the attacks in Northern Ireland the IRA also launched a long running > campaign on the mainland of the UK. > > This involved > > Attacks on civilian targets > > eg > > Railway stations - London Bridge, Docklands, Victoria station, Paddington > station > > Airports - Multiple attacks on Heathrow > > Shops,Shopping centres - Harrods, Oxford street, Arndale centre in Manchester > etc > > Pubs - Guildford pub bombing, Sussex Arms Public House in Covent garden, > Kings head pub woolwich > etc > > Bus - M62 coach bombing > > Economic targets - Bombing of London stock Exchange > Bishopsgate bombing in the city of London > > Attacks on Military targets > > eg > > Hyde park bombing of Household calvalry killing two calverymen and seven > horses. > > Regents Park bandstand bombing which killed seven bansdmen from the Royal Green > Jackets as they played music to spectators. > > Attack on Royal Marine base in Deal in Kent resulting in death of ten bandsmen. > > Attacks on Governement, MPS and Queen's relatives > > eg > > Earl Mountbatten the Queen's first cousin killed by IRA bomb. > > Car bombing of Ian Gow MP > > Bomb attack on Houses of Parliment. > > Bomb attack on house of former prime minister Edward Heath. > > Brighton Hotel Bombing. British Prime Minister and cabinet escape with light > injuries after the IRA blow up a bomb at the hotel where the conservative > party are staying for their party conference. Several others > including Margaret Tebbit wife of Norman Tebbit were left permanently disabled > The prime minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escaped death. > > Mortar attack on Prime Minister and Cabinet at 10 Downing street. > > The IRA also attacked British army bases and personnel in other parts of the > world eg Germany. > > I think that's probably enough for now. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University>David Webb > >Security team leader > >CCSS > >Middlesex University > > >>> David Webb > >>> Security team leader > >>> CCSS > >>> Middlesex University > > >>[...] > > >>AEF OK, they did a fair amount of terrorism. But let's look at another aspect of recent Jewish/Israeli history: Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? Did Ireland attack and nearly destroy Britain on its first day of existence as the Arab's and P's tried to do to Israel on its first day? Did Ireland nearly destroy Britain again like the Arabs (and P's?) nearly did in 1967? (Saved only by a miraculous air strike on the Egyptian Air Force). Did Ireland attack Britain on Christmas or Easter like Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, 1973? And things started looking bad for Israel at one point. Did Ireland teach its children that Britons or Protestants bake rolls with Irish blood? (I've heard that the P's and others teach that Israelis bake matzos with the blood of P's -- don't know if that's really true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.) Etc. Ya know, after all that, can you really blame Israel for being a little skeptical that the P's demands are merely posturing? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:30:41 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186101041.673010.153630@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 9:17 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1186010758.279252.53...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >On Jul 31, 9:01 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1185845107.304275.215...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Jul 30, 1:41 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> >> In article <1185733582.741490.41...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >> >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> >> Ron Johnson wrote: > >> >> >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a > >> >> >> > steaming pile of shit. > > >> >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind > >> >> >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle > >> >> >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. > > >> >> >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the > >> >> >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. > > >> >Again, I shouldn't have implied all Arabs. Those who offered > >> >diplomatic relations (or whatever the phrase is) for returning to the > >> >1967 borders took a big step in the right direction, though I think > >> >that offer also has some serious sticking points (at least one, > >> >anyway). > > >> >> Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? > >> >> Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! > >> >> This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel > >> >> recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. > > >> >> See http://www.earlham.edu/~pss/yasser_arafat.htm > > >> >See > > >> > http://www.faithsforfairness.org/article4.htm > > >> >for the opposing viewpoint. > > >> I like the last line > > >> " > >> Now that Arafat is dead, there are expectations of establishing a democratic > >> and peaceful Palestinian state. > >> " > > >> As I said before you can find pages on the web about the Palestine-Israeli > >> conflict with all kinds of biases. One persons terrorist is another persons > >> freedom fighter. In many many cases terrorists have gone on to become > >> politians eg > > >> Nelson Mandela - Head of the ANC's armed wing > > >I don't know the details, but I don't think he murdered all the whites > >after winning S. Africa. If the P's defeated Israel, they would kill > >all the Jews, or at least throw them out tout de suite! > > Do you really believe that such a genocide could ever happen in the full glare > of world attention ? As I've said before the statements of terrorist groups as Didn't stop those in Rwanda and Sudan. > to their demands often differ considerably from what they will eventually > accept. Hard line policies and hyperbole about total destruction of the enemy > are used to attract support and recruits. In a negotiated settlement noone ever > ends up with what they initially demand - hence it pays to start out demanding > much more than you will eventually accept. Unfortunately that also means that > such negotiations, even in the cases where the final solution is pretty much > obvious from the start, take a long time and a lot of effort to achieve as each > party tries to appease their own hardliners and tries not to be appear to be > weakly accepting what the otherside offers. Then why doesn't Israel do the same: demand the complete destruction of Gaza and West Bank? My opinion is that it's more than a bargaining position when Hamas and Hezbollah demand the destruction of Israel. I think it's just different in case. We disagree. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:33:44 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186101224.457556.159920@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 11:07 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <1186012512.864170.256...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 31, 7:45 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <1185840161.601200.18...@b79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >On Jul 30, 1:41 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> >> In article <1185733582.741490.41...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > >> >> >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > >> >> >> Ron Johnson wrote: > >> >> >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a > >> >> >> > steaming pile of shit. > > >> >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind > >> >> >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle > >> >> >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. > > >> >> >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the > >> >> >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. > > >> >> Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? > >> >> Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! > >> >> This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel > >> >> recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. > > >> >Right. That was a big step forward ... NOT! I heard they still had it > >> >in their charter to destroy Israel and move in. > > >> Then you heard wrong. The charter was formally revised in the presence of > >> Bill Clinton in 1998. > > >> From http://www.adl.org/israel/advocacy/glossary/plo.asp > > >> " > >> Following secret negotiations with Israel in Oslo, on September 9, 1993, Arafat > >> sent a letter to Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin recognizing Israel's > >> right to exist, renouncing terrorism, and pledging to remove clauses in the > >> Palestine National Charter calling for the destruction of Israel. In return, > >> Israel recognized the PLO as the "official representative" of the Palestinian > >> people and began formal negotiations with the PLO. The Charter was revised in > >> the presence of U.S. President Bill Clinton in December 1998. However, the > >> original Charter is still featured on some Palestinian Authority Web sites. > >> " > > >> which you might note is an Israeli advocacy site. > > >Fine, but what about this from the site I gave earlier > > >http://www.faithsforfairness.org/article4.htm > > >[begin quote] > > >[...] > > >During the 1980's, Arafat settled in Tunisia, after the PLO was forced > >out of Lebanon. There, he continued to direct violence against Israel > >from afar until the Oslo Accords in 1993 allowed the PLO to return to > >the West Bank and Gaza. The world believed that the Middle East was > >finally on its way to peace, but Arafat's message to his people was > >quite the opposite. Under Arafat's control, government-sponsored > >Palestinian school textbooks denied Israel's right to exist and Muslim > >clerics were encouraged to call for "Jihad" or Holy War. Throughout > >this period, Arafat personally solicited and accepted money from > >Saddam Hussein and Saudi Arabia to pay the families of suicide > >bombers. > > I've no idea how accurate this portrayal of Arafat's actions is. > However since after the signing of the Oslo agreements Israeli settlement > expansion accelerated to 5 times it's original rate it wouldn't be surprising > if the Palestininans quickly became disillusioned. They also had numerous chances for a state, include Barak's offere which I believe included dismantling many settlements. When Egypt made honest overtures for peace, it got back all the land it wanted. And they apparently didn't want Gaza, probably because they didn't want the P's. [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:59:28 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1186102768.665162.85840@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > AEF wrote: > > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > >> [snip] > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while, > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia. > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh. > > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just > > > >>> their first really successful one. > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro. > > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness. > > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!! > > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc. > > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol. > > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the > > > neolithic era. > > [...] > > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. > > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is > there? > > > Until 9/11, > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. > > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you > don't believe in consequences, do you?). > > > Are > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did > > you expect them to do? > > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command". > > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.) > > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical. > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth > defending. I'll try one more stab at it. Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD NOT be flown into a building or similar. Since the outcome of fighting them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack the hijackers. People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect? Defending what? Vigilante-ism? Enough of that and you'll get riots and other chaos, not to mention tragedies of accident and injustice. You can't use the wonders of hindsight until after it's too late. OK? > > -- > David J Dachtera [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 02:02:03 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <1186100760.841524.157840@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Aug 2, 4:43 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article , davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >> >In article <1185925991.267428.175...@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >> >>On Jul 31, 1:30 pm, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >>> In article <1185761687.729407.239...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes:>On Jul 29, 8:58 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> >>> >> AEF wrote: >> >>> >> > It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to >> >>> >> > destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! >> >> >>> >> They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful >> >>> >> negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a >> >>> >> pre-condition for negotiations. >> >> >>> >Ridiculous. How do you negotiate with someone who wants to destroy >> >>> >you? I don't think Hamas or Hezbollah even wants to negotiate. Fatah >> >>> >maybe. >> >> >>> Although Hamas doesn't officially recognise Israel they definitely want the >> >>> establishment of a Palestinian state and have recognised the existence of >> >> >>So why do they not make the right moves to make a state? They could >> >>have had a state numerous times. >> >> >>> Israel as a reality both now and after the formation of such a state >> >> >>> see >> >> >>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1802862,00.html >> >> >>It appears that Hamas did this under pressure from Abbas according to >> >>this article. Now that Hamas has defeated Fatah in Gaza I suspect it >> >>may not mean anything anymore. >> >> >>And why are they still firing rockets into Israel? They got their land >> >>back. Why don't they stop fighting Israel and start building a >> >>country? >> >> >>> and >> >> >>>http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-a-reality-hamas-leader-admits... >> >> >>This article seems to show the Hamas leader admitting Israel is here >> >>to stay. But they still have their priorities wrong. >> >> >>> The only way out of this conflict is for bitter enemies to negotiate in good >> >>> faith. >> >> >>Good luck. >> >> >>> Who would have thought that Gerry Adam's Sinn Fein and Ian Paisley's >> >>> DUP could be working together in running Northern Ireland a decade ago. >> >> >>There's a big difference: Sinn Fein never had plans to kill all the >> >>Britons and take over the UK. They had much more limited objectives. >> >>Something about a parade in a certain town in N. Ireland and a say in >> >>N. Ireland matters or whatever. Anyway, I make no judgments on that >> >>matter in this post. I'm just pointing out the enormous difference in >> >>goals. Too much difference to make this analogy useful. >> >> >What ?????????? >> >You obviously know nothing about the IRA. >> >> I suppose I had better expand on that. >> >> The provisional IRA aimed to force the British out of Northern Ireland and >> to setup a United Ireland. For 30 years they ran a campaign of terror involving >> shootings, car bombings, larger scale bombings often using Semtex, and mortar >> attacks. The majority of attacks took place in Northern Ireland and were >> targetted at British soldiers and installations, Protestant/Loyalist Areas of >> Northern Ireland, perceived collaborators and traitors, and the Loyalist >> Terrorist groups which had sprung up in reaction to the IRA actions eg the UVF >> Probably the most dispicable tactic used was the use of proxy-bombers >> seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb >> where an innocent person's family was kidnapped and threatened in order to >> force them to become a suicide bomber by driving a car packed with high >> explosives at British Army checkpoints or bases. >> >> As well as the attacks in Northern Ireland the IRA also launched a long running >> campaign on the mainland of the UK. >> >> This involved >> >> Attacks on civilian targets >> >> eg >> >> Railway stations - London Bridge, Docklands, Victoria station, Paddington >> station >> >> Airports - Multiple attacks on Heathrow >> >> Shops,Shopping centres - Harrods, Oxford street, Arndale centre in Manchester >> etc >> >> Pubs - Guildford pub bombing, Sussex Arms Public House in Covent garden, >> Kings head pub woolwich >> etc >> >> Bus - M62 coach bombing >> >> Economic targets - Bombing of London stock Exchange >> Bishopsgate bombing in the city of London >> >> Attacks on Military targets >> >> eg >> >> Hyde park bombing of Household calvalry killing two calverymen and seven >> horses. >> >> Regents Park bandstand bombing which killed seven bansdmen from the Royal Green >> Jackets as they played music to spectators. >> >> Attack on Royal Marine base in Deal in Kent resulting in death of ten bandsmen. >> >> Attacks on Governement, MPS and Queen's relatives >> >> eg >> >> Earl Mountbatten the Queen's first cousin killed by IRA bomb. >> >> Car bombing of Ian Gow MP >> >> Bomb attack on Houses of Parliment. >> >> Bomb attack on house of former prime minister Edward Heath. >> >> Brighton Hotel Bombing. British Prime Minister and cabinet escape with light >> injuries after the IRA blow up a bomb at the hotel where the conservative >> party are staying for their party conference. Several others >> including Margaret Tebbit wife of Norman Tebbit were left permanently disabled >> The prime minister Margaret Thatcher narrowly escaped death. >> >> Mortar attack on Prime Minister and Cabinet at 10 Downing street. >> >> The IRA also attacked British army bases and personnel in other parts of the >> world eg Germany. >> >> I think that's probably enough for now. >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University>David Webb >> >Security team leader >> >CCSS >> >Middlesex University >> >> >>> David Webb >> >>> Security team leader >> >>> CCSS >> >>> Middlesex University >> >> >>[...] >> >> >>AEF > >OK, they did a fair amount of terrorism. But let's look at another >aspect of recent Jewish/Israeli history: > >Were Britons the victims of a Holocaust? > Come on - the holocaust was a tragic event which noone should forget since it should never be allowed to happen again. However it was 50 years ago and cannot be used as an excuse for Israels treatment of the palestinians. The holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis and was the culmination of centuries of christian persecution of the Jews. The palestinians and Muslims had nothing to do with the holocaust. >Did Ireland attack and nearly destroy Britain on its first day of >existence as the Arab's and P's tried to do to Israel on its first >day? > The UK citizens of Northern Ireland did not suddenly find that the UN had arbitrarily decided to give the land they have lived on for the past thousand years to foreign refugees from around the world. How would you have reacted if the UN did the same to your home ? >Did Ireland nearly destroy Britain again like the Arabs (and P's?) >nearly did in 1967? (Saved only by a miraculous air strike on the >Egyptian Air Force). If the UK citizens of Northern Ireland had been forced to flee to refugee camps in mainland Britain because the UN had forcibly setup a foreign nation on part of the territory of northern Ireland then I am pretty certain that both Britain and the Irish republic would have invaded that new nation. (Of course in the real world the UN would never have been able to do such a thing since Britain as a permanent member would have veto'd any such action.) It's hard to imagine that even in the dire straights the UK was in after the second world war it wouldn't have easily destroyed such an imposed nation. But if that nation had continued to survive, say because of US military support, then I would expect that the UK and republic of ireland would have continued to this day to try and remove such a nation from their territory. (The IRA would then have been working with Britain and the Republic to destabilise that nation). When looked at in that light it is miraculous that the Palestinians and nations supporting them in the region such as Egypt and Jordan have come so far in accepting the existence of Israel. Western christian guilt over the holocaust led to the setting up of Israel by the UN. As in Iraq the consequences were entirely predictable but ignored. > >Did Ireland attack Britain on Christmas or Easter like Egypt attacked >Israel on Yom Kippur, 1973? And things started looking bad for Israel >at one point. > >Did Ireland teach its children that Britons or Protestants bake rolls >with Irish blood? (I've heard that the P's and others teach that >Israelis bake matzos with the blood of P's -- don't know if that's >really true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.) > Black propaganda has been around for an awfully long time. Germans in the first world war bayoneted babies. Saddam's troops tossed babies out of incubators. In Roman times Christians sacrificed babies and ate their flesh and drank their blood. etc etc In any conflict it helps to paint your enemies as sub-human monsters. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Etc. > >Ya know, after all that, can you really blame Israel for being a >little skeptical that the P's demands are merely posturing? > >AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:06:24 +0200 From: Michael Unger Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news reader (was: Stay on Alpha forever?) Message-ID: <5heku5F3jc02cU1@mid.individual.net> [subject line corrected] On 2007-08-02 03:16, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] >> [...] >> >> Kerry, no insult intended, but your posts always come out of order, >> almost >> a non sequitur. Please get a news reader. Try Opera, use >> news.individual.net >> or please stop posting. Most annoying. >> >> [...] > > Tom - I thought top posting was bad form? > > Based on offline feedback from others on this list, they do not have > issues with the postings, so I suspect the issue you are having is > with your client or the way Info-VAX is processing replies. [lines re-wrapped] > [...] Kerry, your "postings" (via Info-VAX) don't have any "References:" header -- so a newsreader conforming to the standards can *not* do "threading" appropriately. Mozilla/SeaMonkey (for example) *do* have the option of "threading by subject" -- but since a lot of postings don't have a "meaningful subject" (e.g., just "Question") you run the risk of "threads" being composed of several independent postings sent many years apart. Michael -- Real names enhance the probability of getting real answers. My e-mail account at DECUS Munich is no longer valid. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:03:20 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/02/07 12:13, Mark Berryman wrote: > [ The stuff that started all of this removed ] > > When the Info-VAX gateway was written there were no mail clients that > generated (or propagated) a References header. So that was not one of > the headers that the gateway looked for in a mail message to propagate > into a news message. I took a look at a couple of Kerry's messages and > discovered that they now contain the References header so I have added > that to the list of propagated headers in the gateway. Let's see if > that makes any difference. I see a References header in the email that I am replying to. Thanks. > However, there is nothing I can do about the fact that Kerry's choice of > client does not believe in line breaks. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:53:02 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <9xzf+8UM2z4y@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , JF Mezei writes: > > So yes, your stupid Microsoft junk does wrap the actual raw data, but it > doesn't wrap the lines, it adds a "join next line to the end of this > line" "=" sign at the end of each line. So when the newsreader > reconstructs your message, it puts it all back onto the same line. And > when it saves the text to a local file, it is saved as on line per > paragraph. > > Microsoft truly does not want to adhere to internet standards at all. I haven't had any trouble reading any of those posts and the only one which actually showed mime (=) was the one forced to. When someone actually does post in mime, I see it. (ANU-news on a VT330.) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:49:40 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <4oUozIKwJ45k@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > It is because you post using info-vax that your responses are out of order, > in the sense that at least my news reader doesnt recognize and stack it in > the > appropriate tree, as a result it is difficult to figure to whom you are > responding, which in my case generally means that I simply delete your > posts > without reading them, not because I don't value your contributions, but I > have too > much to do and can't be bothered to figure out to whom you are repsonding. I never had a problem when I used Info-VAX. Mayeb it's the news server you're using that can't get things in order. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:58:45 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <4bcf5$46b28bd6$cef8887a$23785@TEKSAVVY.COM> Mark Berryman wrote: > However, there is nothing I can do about the fact that Kerry's choice of > client does not believe in line breaks. But you could implement virus protection by simply not propagating any message that was generated by Microsoft software :-) This way, people who insist on using non-compliant Microsoft crap would not pollute the comp.os.vms/Info-VAX system :-) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 20:03:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Message-ID: In article <1186069503.617052.127600@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > Magtape IDS03$MKA300:, device type DEC TLZ07, is online, record- > oriented device, > [...] > > Can I just change the 60's above to 28's or should I just not make > standalone backup kits on TLZ drives and why? Can you boot from those drives? There's no point in puting a STABACKIT on a drive you can't boot from. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:20:41 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Message-ID: <07080220204097_202003EE@antinode.org> From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > > Can I just change the 60's above to 28's or should I just not make > > standalone backup kits on TLZ drives and why? > > Can you boot from those drives? There's no point in puting a > STABACKIT on a drive you can't boot from. How would you know whether you can boot from those drives if you don't have something bootable with which to try it? I poked at STABACKIT.COM enough to make a kit on RX23 diskettes which worked on my VAXstation 3100 model 38 systems. I never actually used them in anger, but I felt better having them lying around. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:50:54 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Message-ID: <009801c7d570$bac47880$304d6980$@com> This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C7D546.D1EE7080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it possible? Reference? ------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C7D546.D1EE7080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is it possible? Reference? 

------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C7D546.D1EE7080-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:14:02 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Message-ID: <07080221140224_202003EE@antinode.org> From: "Paul Raulerson" > This is a multipart message in MIME format. Swell. > Is it possible? VMSTAR can read a simple "tar" tape on, I assume, any old kind of tape drive. > Reference? Try it if you don't believe me. If you have trouble with large files or long names, or symbolic links, let me know. Define "mainframe tape". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:24:06 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Read tar and mainframe tapes with 4mm drive under VMS? Message-ID: In article <009801c7d570$bac47880$304d6980$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > Is it possible? Reference? I used to read and write 9-track mainframe tapes all the time on VMS. How I did it was to use COBOL's ability to use the EBCDIC alphabet, but there are other ways to crack this nut. There are various DEC utilities floating around. A quick search of the Freeware CDS comes up with this: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware50/ETAPE/ I am currently available if you require assistance in this area. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:04:29 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Save $000's on your maintenance contract Message-ID: We have so many complete unlicensed systems here. Did you know that the cost of a complete Alpha system is in most cases cheaper than a 1 yr maintenance contract with most providers? Unlicensed systems in stock Alphaserver ES40 Model 2 667Mhz $1200 Alphaserver ES45 Model 2 1Ghz $2400 Alphaserver DS10 466Mhz $1100 Alphaserver DS20e 667Mhz $1995 Email us at sales@islandco.com with your specific needs. Why pay for maintenance when you can DIY in half the time ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:11:01 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186078261.486853.196470@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 7:36 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/02/07 05:17, Neil Rieck wrote: > [...snip...] > > Sure, PC motherboards are cheap. > > But x86(-64) *server* motherboards are *not* cheap. And, depending > on how much you want to spend, they *do* provide all the important > server-level features. > > That's why they're server mobos, not PC mobos. > I think you are agreeing with my statement. First off, x86-64 doesn't incude the Itanium family. But you are correct in stating that most server mobos do include most of the stuff I mentioned as being important. { as an aside, SUN released a SPARC chip a few years back with no parity detection in one of the internal caches so I don't think you can assume that all server platforms are built the way we would want them to be, but I digress } Some non-server mobos contain some of this stuff as well but it means you need to pay a little more for DIMMs with parity support. Every day I encounter more people who are being dumbed-down by constant exposure to Wintel technology. Many would pick a fight with you If you even suggested that parity detection/correction was a requirement; most would fight you even more after you tell them the price of this requirement. (I can hear it now) So I stand by my original statement: don't install x86 whatever with an emulator unless you are really painted into a corner. It is better to buy a bigger Alpha (although you are still going to take a small hit on the software licences). p.s. I'm running a DS20 with 3GB of memory on OpenVMS-8.2. Most of the file system is cached so this thing just flys. Everyone should install more memory if possible. To make the best use of the file cache, everyone should be running OpenVMS-7.3-2 at the very minimum. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:22:57 GMT From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: "Neil Rieck" wrote in message news:1186078261.486853.196470@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 2, 7:36 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 08/02/07 05:17, Neil Rieck wrote: > > > [...snip...] > > > > Sure, PC motherboards are cheap. > > > > But x86(-64) *server* motherboards are *not* cheap. And, depending > > on how much you want to spend, they *do* provide all the important > > server-level features. > > > > That's why they're server mobos, not PC mobos. > > > > I think you are agreeing with my statement. First off, x86-64 doesn't > incude the Itanium family. But you are correct in stating that most > server mobos do include most of the stuff I mentioned as being > important. { as an aside, SUN released a SPARC chip a few years back > with no parity detection in one of the internal caches so I don't > think you can assume that all server platforms are built the way we > would want them to be, but I digress } Some non-server mobos contain > some of this stuff as well but it means you need to pay a little more > for DIMMs with parity support. > > Every day I encounter more people who are being dumbed-down by > constant exposure to Wintel technology. Many would pick a fight with > you If you even suggested that parity detection/correction was a > requirement; most would fight you even more after you tell them the > price of this requirement. (I can hear it now) > > So I stand by my original statement: don't install x86 whatever with > an emulator unless you are really painted into a corner. It is better > to buy a bigger Alpha (although you are still going to take a small > hit on the software licences). > > p.s. I'm running a DS20 with 3GB of memory on OpenVMS-8.2. Most of the > file system is cached so this thing just flys. Everyone should install > more memory if possible. To make the best use of the file cache, > everyone should be running OpenVMS-7.3-2 at the very minimum. > > Neil Rieck > Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, > Ontario, Canada. > http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > > Please don't compare chalk and cheese. If you wish, compare current Itaniums with something like similarly priced Proliant-class boxes, not with el cheapo commodity-priced desktop-based stuff. Compaq's better Proliants have had plenty of RAS features for many years, and the research I have done says they (and their equivalents from IBM, Sun, etc) compare quite reasonably with Itanium boxes, at least at the low end. By far the least reliable bit of a typical Proliant these days is not hardware, it's Windows. But try telling that to the people doing VMware-based (or similar) server consolidation (or to those about to throw away a real VMS box to replace it with Charon?). Also, you might want to refer to ECC memory rather than parity memory; parity memory doesn't do corrections and is therefore largely useless, as any AlphaServer 400 owner who's fully populated the memory will tell you (mean time between unsolicited VMS reboots <28 days for a customer I was working with, they had to swap dozens of them for AlphaServer 1000As in the end, with real ECC memory). That AlphaServer 400 experience shows that the idea of relatively poor availability due to putting a "server" badge on desktop-class hardware isn't new, and wasn't/isn't confined to the PC world. It also showed (way back then) that adding lots of memory introduces snags unless it's ECC memory. ECC still isn't common on desktop/laptop machines, but 1GB or more of memory is not unusual these days, which makes me wonder how many crashes folks are going to see because of undetected main memory errors. They'll mostly just blame Windows of course, and historically they'd have been right to do so. 2p John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:50:46 -0400 From: John Reagan Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Michael Moroney wrote: > John Reagan writes: > > >>There has been only one case with me where a customer had this rather >>ugly Macro-32 application on Alpha which directly manipulated the FP, >>SP, etc. to emulate some PDP-11 application. I looked for about 30 >>minutes and threw up my hands. I recommended they stay on Alpha or go >>to a VAX emulator product. > > > (waves!) > > It's on a VAX, not an Alpha. The Alpha compiler would have choked on the > bizarre code just as much as the Itanium compiler does now. Oh yeah. I remember now. Duh! -- John Reagan OpenVMS Pascal/Macro-32/COBOL Project Leader Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 15:54:49 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <6OBH3D7zKJDx@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 08/01/07 17:00, Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: >> >>> Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are >>> you likely to need in the future? >> >> Note that there are some domains where no performance boost is needed. >> The best example I have heard of is the software reading toll tickets >> on toll roads. That is a case where the bandwidth of the road is never >> going to increase enough to tax the computer capacity. And I am quite >> careful before I use the word "never". > > More plazas, more lanes, especially more customers, and, if various No, the bandwidth limit is the road. > agencies have sharing agreements (think E-ZPass, for those of you in > the NE United States), more reciprocity processing. > > Eventually, "more, more, more" maxes out the box. Do you have an example of this ? The one discussed at DECUS for many years switched to Alpha from PDP-11 due to parts availability, not for performance reasons. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 16:04:15 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: > John Reagan writes: > >>There has been only one case with me where a customer had this rather >>ugly Macro-32 application on Alpha which directly manipulated the FP, >>SP, etc. to emulate some PDP-11 application. I looked for about 30 >>minutes and threw up my hands. I recommended they stay on Alpha or go >>to a VAX emulator product. > > (waves!) > > It's on a VAX, not an Alpha. The Alpha compiler would have choked on the > bizarre code just as much as the Itanium compiler does now. That is why TECO is emulated on Alpha. My one experience with it on Itanium is that it: a) Is still emulated b) crashes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:16:55 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/02/07 15:54, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> On 08/01/07 17:00, Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>> In article , moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes: >>> >>>> Do you need a performance boost now? What kind of performance boost are >>>> you likely to need in the future? >>> Note that there are some domains where no performance boost is needed. >>> The best example I have heard of is the software reading toll tickets >>> on toll roads. That is a case where the bandwidth of the road is never >>> going to increase enough to tax the computer capacity. And I am quite >>> careful before I use the word "never". >> More plazas, more lanes, especially more customers, and, if various > > No, the bandwidth limit is the road. A fully-saturated road where everyone uses a toll tag is, obviously, an upper limit on usage. However, the roads are not saturated, and not everyone uses toll tags. (Toll roads and VMS are my job.) >> agencies have sharing agreements (think E-ZPass, for those of you in >> the NE United States), more reciprocity processing. >> >> Eventually, "more, more, more" maxes out the box. > > Do you have an example of this ? The one discussed at DECUS for many > years switched to Alpha from PDP-11 due to parts availability, not for > performance reasons. Yes. One of our toll systems is upgrading from a GS160 to a GS1280 because it's over-burdened. But it's not a "lane computer", simply processing tags as they zip by. 80486 computers running Linux can do that (including taking 2 pictures of every car). -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:22:09 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <5Wrsi.24415$GO6.3867@newsfe21.lga> On 08/02/07 15:22, John Wallace wrote: [snip lots of agreement] > unless it's ECC memory. ECC still isn't common on desktop/laptop machines, > but 1GB or more of memory is not unusual these days, which makes me wonder > how many crashes folks are going to see because of undetected main memory > errors. They'll mostly just blame Windows of course, and historically they'd > have been right to do so. Anecdote: I've had 1GB of RAM on my desktop PC for ~4 years now (it's an always-on system running Linux, so don't think that it's only running 3 hours/day or some such), and have never had memory "issues". -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 15:09:37 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <1186092577.474460.210300@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 4:22 pm, "John Wallace" wrote: > "Neil Rieck" wrote in message > [...snip...] > > Please don't compare chalk and cheese. If you wish, compare current Itaniums > with something like similarly priced Proliant-class boxes, not with el > cheapo commodity-priced desktop-based stuff. Compaq's better Proliants have > had plenty of RAS features for many years, and the research I have done says > they (and their equivalents from IBM, Sun, etc) compare quite reasonably > with Itanium boxes, at least at the low end. > I couldn't agree more. I've got lots of Proliants instlled in the back room, many still running Windows-NT4 (don't ask) and they are reasonably stable and only have a problem every 12 months on average. So when the Proliant maintenance guy comes in to swap boards on one of them I always point out the AS-2100 running beside them; and it blows his mind when I show him that the uptime display indicates this thing has been serving up DHCP addresses without a reboot since July-2004. > > Also, you might want to refer to ECC memory rather than parity memory; > Thanks for correcting me. I remember the ECC Lecture part of the PDP-11/44 course at DEC in Kanata (Ottawa). 32 bits of data and 5 bits of protection. Even back then the PC people refused to accknowledge that this stuff was necessary. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:46:46 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article <1185995866.368720.29970@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar writes: > > Can a costly upgrade be justfied simply because you can't stay on > Alphas forever? We still have mission-critical systems on VAXen. No problem, we can get parts. I've recently had to get parts for an 11/785, not terribly hard. I used to have problems getting parts for six month old SGI. You mileage will vary. Talk to your hardware maintenance folks about parts availability for the Alphas you have. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:56:24 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article <65d84$46b132bf$cef8887a$22210@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > As long as new versions of VMS-Alpha are being generated That's not what many mission critical apps need. None of my mission critical VAXen run anything later than 6.2. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 19:59:55 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article <1186050866.271931.120540@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: > > I did two ports from VAX to Alpha between 1999-2001. The VAX-BASIC > stuff was straight forward although I decided to rewrite some code > produced by some less disciplined programmers; I was slowed down a > little more by converting "some highly tweaked VAX-C code to DEC-C" > and "Macro-32 code to DEC-C". Now that the hard work is done I expect > a port from Alpha to Itanium should be fairly easy. All my code, invluding Macro-32, just recompiled in going from VAX to Alpha. The only problems I encountered were limitations of the Fortran compiler which shipped with OpenVMS Alpha AXP 1.5. Those went away when I upgraded to 6.0 and the later compiler. Porting other folks Macro-32 has simply been a matter of reading and following the porting guide, adding some new directives that have long since been accepted by the VAX version of Macro-32. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:57:07 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: In article <20070731083210.GA79688@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition > I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias will > work together with port forwarding. You NEED to? Putting a UNIX firewall in front of a VMS system is like using straw to protect brick. Who put you up to this idea? Yes, there are valid reasons to put VMS behind a firewall (keep all those attacks from tieing up the LAN your SCS traffic is on, for example). But I'd look for a purpose-built firewall. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:58:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: In article <20070731131909.GA53337@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 06:02:41AM -0700, Tom Linden wrote: >> On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:32:10 -0700, Anton Shterenlikht >> wrote: >> >> > I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition >> >I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias will >> >work together with port forwarding. >> Why do you need this front-end? > > The Uni comp. services are not happy for me to connect the cluster to the > network directly. I'm not sure whether they do not trust the security > of the VMS, or my ability to maintain it. In any case there is nobody > with any VMS skills at the comp. services at present, so they probably > thought it safer to make me do it this way. They don't know VMS, therefor they assume it's as buggy as UNIX. I do agree with keeping SCS traffic off the open internet, but a router will handle that (SCS isn't routeable). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:32:50 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 2, 5:57 pm, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <20070731083210.GA79...@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton Shterenlikht writes: > > > I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition > > I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias will > > work together with port forwarding. > > You NEED to? Putting a UNIX firewall in front of a VMS system is > like using straw to protect brick. > :-) I liked Kerry's "rent-a-cop to protect a police station" better, but I might steal them both;-)) > Who put you up to this idea? > > Yes, there are valid reasons to put VMS behind a firewall (keep all > those attacks from tieing up the LAN your SCS traffic is on, for example). > But I'd look for a purpose-built firewall. Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who cares what they run as long as they do the job. But, I do agree with you. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 20:07:06 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who > cares what they run as long as they do the job. Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure hope they keep up the OS patch level.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:40:31 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <008e01c7d56f$47991790$d6cb46b0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:57 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > In article <20070731083210.GA79688@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton > Shterenlikht writes: > > I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition > > I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias will > > work together with port forwarding. > > You NEED to? Putting a UNIX firewall in front of a VMS system is > like using straw to protect brick. Actually, given what I have seen of TCP under VMS, I would probably choose to use a UNIX system in front of it too. I just would not choose an x86 based system. TCP is the common denominator of network communications these days, and systems need really up to date IP stacks and applications. This is perhaps, one of only two areas where VMS appears weak to me. -Paul > > Who put you up to this idea? > > Yes, there are valid reasons to put VMS behind a firewall (keep all > those attacks from tieing up the LAN your SCS traffic is on, for > example). > But I'd look for a purpose-built firewall. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 21:10:35 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: On 08/02/07 20:40, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] >> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:57 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> In article <20070731083210.GA79688@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, Anton >> Shterenlikht writes: >>> I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition >>> I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias will >>> work together with port forwarding. >> You NEED to? Putting a UNIX firewall in front of a VMS system is >> like using straw to protect brick. > > Actually, given what I have seen of TCP under VMS, I would probably choose > to use a UNIX system in front of it too. I just would not choose an x86 > based system. Why not? FreeBSD on x86 is Unix, and Unix is Unix, no matter the platform. > TCP is the common denominator of network communications these days, and > systems need really up to date IP stacks and applications. This is perhaps, > one of only two areas where VMS appears weak to me. [P.S. - Yay!!!!! Info-VAX is properly threading!!!] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 21:37:13 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <00a301c7d577$338b2510$9aa16f30$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 9:11 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > On 08/02/07 20:40, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org] > >> Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 5:57 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > >> > >> In article <20070731083210.GA79688@mech-aslap33.men.bris.ac.uk>, > Anton > >> Shterenlikht writes: > >>> I need to have a *NIX frontend for a VMS cluster. In addition > >>> I'd like to set up cluster alias. I'm not sure how cluster alias > will > >>> work together with port forwarding. > >> You NEED to? Putting a UNIX firewall in front of a VMS system is > >> like using straw to protect brick. > > > > Actually, given what I have seen of TCP under VMS, I would probably > choose > > to use a UNIX system in front of it too. I just would not choose an > x86 > > based system. > > Why not? FreeBSD on x86 is Unix, and Unix is Unix, no matter the > platform. > Using a non-x86 system defeats an enormous number of script kiddies and such. Not all that many bad-hackers have access to Power or Alpha or other UNIX systems, they are tied to their Windows PCs. ;) Also, it often makes it easier to detect issues like that. An x86 executable sticks out like a sore thumb! > > TCP is the common denominator of network communications these days, > and > > systems need really up to date IP stacks and applications. This is > perhaps, > > one of only two areas where VMS appears weak to me. > > [P.S. - Yay!!!!! Info-VAX is properly threading!!!] > Glory! Still looks the same to me. :) -Paul > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA > > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:02:23 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > [P.S. - Yay!!!!! Info-VAX is properly threading!!!] Ooh yes it is! Thank you to Mark. One observation though. If you receive INFO-VAX by the digest method, rather than individual messages, and reply to that, then threads will still break. I can't see any way around this except for changing your INFO-VAX subscription to receive individual messages, and replying to those. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:08:21 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug > Phillips writes: > > > > Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who > > cares what they run as long as they do the job. > > Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire > infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure > hope they keep up the OS patch level.) Going back a few years, SuSE did a CD which was a firewall. The general idea was save the config to a floppy, write protect that, and the box couldn't be written to. I fancied getting that until I saw that the price was 1,000 USD. It had disappeared from their website last time I looked (a couple or more years ago). -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 2 Aug 2007 17:31:09 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <1zeuKploce5+@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? > > What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to > when the letter was dropped? A small problem for the germans. They completely changed alphabets, or at leat what we might now call the font, and some youth refuse to learn the old. But its not exactly hard to learn. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 06:52:47 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: In article <1zeuKploce5+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson > writes: > > > > How can you just drop a letter from the alphabet? > > > > What happens to all the books/articles/letters/etc written prior to > > when the letter was dropped? > > A small problem for the germans. They completely changed alphabets, > or at leat what we might now call the font, and some youth refuse > to learn the old. > > But its not exactly hard to learn. Used very effectively in a vampire comedy film I saw recently. The young vampire w Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <46B2C0F8.9080906@vsm.com.au> Hi, John Reagan wrote: > FredK wrote: > >> I found this an interesting read: >> >> >> http://www.valuesearchfunds.com/userFiles/Essay_Oct_2005.pdf >> > > Awesome! Very interesting indeed. It brings back memories of my Honours Computer Science project back in 1983. I wanted to write a cross-development system for the TMS9900 microprocessor (running on a VAX) but my supervisor said that wasn't "research" so instead I wrote something I called "The Universal Assembler". The idea was that a control file defined the syntax & semantics of a given microprocessor assembler language, and my program would generate correct machine code for an assemply-language program for that microprocessor. I got it to work (more or less) but concluded in my thesis that it was "an essentially useless piece of software" :-) On a more recent note, and not unrelated to this thread, I've recently had to do some work with SDL for the first time ever (in over 20 years of VMS). (This is only possible because SDL is on the Freeware CD-ROM.) Not having used it before I went to print out the documentation but SDL.MEM doesn't work so well on an HP laser printer. (That's Runoff for you!) So for the past few weeks I've been converting it into DECwrite and now I have a much prettier version to print out. (I have a DECwrite template already prepared for producing manuals -- and DECwrite seemed so much more appropraite than M$ Word!) Unfortunately it seems the SDL documentation as provided in SDL.MEM hasn't been updated in 20 years either, so my DECwrite document will probably get a few home-grown revisions along the way. Regards, Jeremy Begg (replace nospam by jeremy to reply) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 04:47:36 -0000 From: Rose Subject: Your Platform for Innovation - spigit.com Message-ID: <1186116456.905940.270070@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> Hey, what are brilliant ideas & talents worth without the right platform to show them? Your ideas, talents get to see the light of the day in spigit.com. Your handicap of not knowing the right people is cured in spigit's socianomic community. Be assured, spigit was the magic you were looking for to launch yourself as an entrepreneur. Spigit.com just launched on the 18th July, 2007 with 25 new featured ideas- which are on their journey to make their mark as the next evolving technology. In spigit you can put up your raw & unfinished ideas. Spigit's simulation then takes your ideas through 3 lifecycle stages - incubation, validation and emergence. During which you can refine ideas, find the right resources to get started, create buzz, meet the right associates and launch your product as a budding entrepreneur. Come try out the spigit game. Your feedback on spigit.com is most welcome. Thanks for your time, Rose www.spigit.com ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.421 ************************