INFO-VAX Mon, 09 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 371 Contents: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Delete Key? Re: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: IA64 clusters with eva Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Re: SEARCH: expected result? Re: XML for VMS Re: XML for VMS Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th RE: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th RE: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th Re: [OT] July the 4th ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:18:50 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: <469146AA.8BF920F7@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > If I do > $ SHO DEV GG > only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to > set host/scsi gets me to the prompt > HSG80-TOP> > > So I guess the above device name is generic to the HSG80 itself and > not a specific controller. Each node has 2 HBAs connected to 2 switches, > cross-strapped to the 2 HSG80 controllers. > > The objective is to connect to the other controller through SET HOST/SCSI > to run frutil, for cache battery replacement. Of course, I could use a > console cable, but this is more convenient. Use SHOW DEVICE/FULL on $1$GGA2 to display the available paths, and determine which path is associated with which controller. Then, SET DEVICE/SWITCH/PATH=PGnu... to be able to communicate with the "other" HSG. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 18:30:28 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Accessing other HSG80 controller Message-ID: On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:18:50 -0700, David J Dachtera = wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: >> >> If I do >> $ SHO DEV GG >> only one device shows up, $1$GGA2: so that when used as argument to >> set host/scsi gets me to the prompt >> HSG80-TOP> >> >> So I guess the above device name is generic to the HSG80 itself and >> not a specific controller. Each node has 2 HBAs connected to 2 = >> switches, >> cross-strapped to the 2 HSG80 controllers. >> >> The objective is to connect to the other controller through SET = >> HOST/SCSI >> to run frutil, for cache battery replacement. Of course, I could use= a >> console cable, but this is more convenient. > > Use SHOW DEVICE/FULL on $1$GGA2 to display the available paths, and = > determine > which path is associated with which controller. Then, SET > DEVICE/SWITCH/PATH=3DPGnu... to be able to communicate with the "other= " = > HSG. > Thanks, that did the trick. -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:21:59 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > Sent: July 8, 2007 12:37 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: David J Dachtera [mailto:djesys.no@spam.comcast.net] > > > Sent: July 8, 2007 11:44 AM > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? > > > > > > "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > And as I stated in a thread - OPS (Operations) =3D Systems > Admin + > > > > Operators. Both work in Operations. > > > > > > Well, yes and no. > > > > > > In our shop, for organizational purposes, yes. > > > > > > However, Technology Operations (includes server admin.'s and > back- > > > end admin.'s) > > > !=3D Data Center Operations (lower skill/certifications-set). > > > > > > > I was not referring to Operators. IT culture typicall refers > to > > > OPS as > > > > the entire system admin / operator dept. > > > > > > Not always. > > > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong, but even if these two groups have > immediate > > managers that are different, do not both of these managers report > up > > through a common IT Director or VP that has responsibility for > both IT > > systems admin and day to day operations? > > > > That is certainly the case I have seen in most shops. >=20 > By that measure, all parts of IT are likely to report upward to a > single CIO/CTO > or whatever. >=20 > I don't/can't do what the operators do, and they don't/can't do > what I and my > partner do. Their first reporting level is to a person one step > below the data > center manager, where we report directly to the data center > manager. Implicitly, > that grants us a level of authority we need to be effective in our > jobs. >=20 > Operators don't do what SysAdmins do. It's not snobbish of us to > make that > distinction, just a reflection of differences in levels of > responsibility and > authorization. >=20 My point was that there are typically two primary Depts in any IT org - Applications (Apps) and Operations (OPS). Yes, there are smaller groups like EA (enterprise arch), but these tend to be very small compared to Apps and OPS. Usually the VP in charge of Operations (Sys Admin, Operators - OPS) is separate and very distinct from VP of Applications. You could also add User Support in there as well I guess, as that might also be a separate VP, but often it comes up under OPS or Apps. Back to the point - OS patching is usually a joint planning initiative - usually led by OPS (SysAdmin plans/supports, Operators implement), but often requires Apps dept approvals and/or involvement if the Apps are important or higher (Apps may have to get BU approvals). Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:52:55 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Delete Key? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > That is because the frustration is killing me. :) > > Aw well- > Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a PC or a > Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little Alpha > machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it does. > The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line closes up. That is because the key labeled backspace is sending an ASCII delete code, as per standard terminal emulation and is what real terminals do. Some real terminals, and most terminal emulators can configure that key to send a backspace to make it easier to use some operating systems. > When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see the pesky > DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. And by > golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE the block. > But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: > > ABCDEFG > ^-------- Cursor is here > > > > ABDEFG > ^---------- Cursor is still here > > Surely there is some way to do this... The ASCII character set does not have a code to do that type of delete, which is to delete the character under the cursor and then shift the line to fill in. That is because ASCII/ANSI terminals traditionally do not keep track of the characters on the line or the screen. The action of the keys is totally interpreted by the host. Only some terminals will even support the escape sequences that will do that delete and shift the characters, so software that presents that functionality on needs to be able to fall back rewriting the line and remembering to write spaces over the end. This is much different than on a 3270 type terminal in which you do local editing and then send the result up to the host a screen at a time. The key cluster on the newer VT series keyboard which contains the remove key came later in the development of ANSI terminals, and is an optional feature, so older software could not depend on it being present. Which means that line editing software historically would not be using those escape sequences. So the new keys became shortcuts for other editing functions. By the way, TPU is not an editor, it is an editing programming language. EDIT/TPU invokes the EVE editor which is written in TPU, and the source is [optionally?] installed sys$examples. For EDT and EVE(EDIT/TPU) in EDT mode, the numeric keypad comma does the delete function that you seek. That key is on all real VT100 terminals up to the current. Unfortunately that key is missing on the PC keyboards, so you have to look up how each emulator implements it. There does not appear to be a standard on how emulators map VTxx key missing on PC keyboard layouts. My copy of Reflection X and Reflection 2 use different mappings and they are from the same vendor. I do not use TPU in EVE keypad mode, and I would have to look up what it does. It looks to me that the EVE keypad mode was designed for the original PC keyboard markings, a marking pattern that I have never seen on a terminal supported by VMS for use with EVE. EVE allows you to redefine any of the application keys to do anything that you want. Every thing that I have seen other than working 3270 emulators on Microsoft Windows, VMS, and LINUX treats the VT "remove" or PC "delete" key as a "cut" operation on a previously selected range, and on occasion to imply a select of the current word before the cut. So while you can easily change EVE (TPU) to do what you want, you will face the same problem on just about every other application. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:59:43 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: HTML postings (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <31f4c$469188b4$cef8887a$31158@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > I posted this link in earlier note but it likely needs to be highlighted > in future for anyone using Outlook clients. It talks about how setting > different registry settings will produce different results in how plain > text is sent out by Outlook. It says a lot about Microsoft when its current products not only disregard internet standards, but you now need to play with registry stuff to get the proper settings. (it used to be doable in menus). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:21:10 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: IA64 clusters with eva Message-ID: <1183940470.887879.159330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Jul 7, 1:27 pm, magalet...@hotmail.com wrote: > Is there a step by step guide on building VMS clusters in an ia64 > environment with dual eva0's. > > Questions I have > > 1. booting the vms server puts me into a fis mode to build VMS > onlocal > attached drives, do I need to do this first before I build on the EVA > disks I would assume so because you would need information on the VMS > system .ie. HBA card info and disks would need to be carved up so I > could do this. I want this to be a homogenous cluster. > > 2. It is a 2 node cluster so do I need a crossover ethernet cable to > be in the mix for cluster comminications like I do with Windows > clusters ? > > 3. Is the multipath software part of version 8.3 of VMS software or do > I need an add on like we use with Windows platforms. > > I am VERY familiar with standard ci clusters but this is new to me > any information is greatly apprieciated. > > Thanks, > Carmine Carmine, Conceptually, you do not need to first build a local disk. Theoretically, you should be able to install directly to the EVA. However, as always, the devil is in the details. Without a detailed review of the hardware (which was not mentioned in the initial post), it is not possible to check if there are known issues with the base DVD. It is also true that I often counsel clients to keep a local disk with a bootable image on the system for emergency situations. A standalone system on a local disk is a far more powerful tool than the DVD-based environment. You do not need a cross-over cable, however, a high capacity LAN link between the cluster members is needed. It is not uncommon to use a cross-over cable, although I generally recommend a switch/hub configuration as it allows for expansion and monitoring without disruption. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:32:36 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: In article <469108BD.9CD31ECD@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera wrote: > "P. Sture" wrote: > > > > In article <46906117.2139AE63@spam.comcast.net>, > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > "P. Sture" wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > There's a pretty comprehensive article entitled "Configuring Mail > > > > Clients to Send Plain ASCII Text". It covers all manner of clients: > > > > > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html > > > > > > Is it new enough to include Safari? > > > > > > Seems we have some Safari users here. The results so far have been at > > > least as > > > unpredictable as LookOut! + Exchange. > > > > Do you mean OS X Mail instead of Safari? > > > > Safari is just a browser, so can only do email via a web interface > > AFAIK. OS X Mail.app is covered at: > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#macx > > > > Another common email client used on OS X is Entourage, as it's packaged > > with Office for Mac. Likewise covered: > > > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html#entourageX > > See recent posts from Paul Raulerson. They seem OK now, although as it's the weekend that may be down to posting from home rather than work. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:20:08 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , "R.A.Omond" > writes: > >> You probably mean the UK (as in United Kingdom of Great Britain and >> Northern Ireland). Please be careful on this point; it irks those >> of us who live in the UK, vote in the UK, but are not English (and >> there are several million of us). >> >> You guys should know better. > > Of course we do. However, considering the newsgroup, we confused the > difference between England and the UK with the difference between VMS > and OpenVMS. Sorry. :-) > > Of course, there are also the British Isles (which also includes the > Republic of Ireland, which is not a member of NATO (though it is an EU > member), Great Britain (as opposed to Brittany in France), i.e. England, > Scotland and Wales (but not Northern Ireland---not sure if this > technically includes the Shetland Islands, Isle of Wight, Isle of Man > etc) and the Channel Islands, which have a rather bizarre status. > The Isle of Man is not governed by London, it has its own government and it is not part of the EU. In fact it a Norman Kingdom and it has the oldest parliament of Europe. Queen Elizabeth is head of state. The Isle of Wight belongs to England. The Channal Islands belong to the kingdom of Normandy, and again are not governed by London. They have their own governments , are not part of the EU, and Queen Elizabeth is head of state. By the way, since Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own governments and parliaments, there is some talk about a similar construction for England. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:46:43 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <1183934803.092238.285960@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com> On Jul 5, 12:42 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: > > Took heavy fire last evening. Almost constant report from exploding ordnance, > > pinned down by heavy barrage at times. > > > Survived the night. No casualties. > > 1200 Iraqi civilians died last month alone. > 6 Canadians died in your afghanistan yesterday. Your president's > fireworks are still killing people every day. this presidents fireworks are saving AMERICAN lives by keeping the terrorists at bay ... if Iraq were allowed to become like their neighbors Iran and Syria, the middle east would be a war zone ... you want a sampling, just listen to that nut in Iraq ... another Hitler in the making ... we looked the other way in the 1930s and Pearl Harbor struck ... 9/11 was another Pearl Harbor ... wake up JF ... you cannot appease terrorists! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:16:04 +0100 From: Mark McIntyre Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:46:43 -0000, in comp.os.vms , ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: >if Iraq were allowed to become like their neighbors >Iran and Syria, the middle east would be a war zone ... Thats hilarious, I can only assume its a joke comment. Reality check: the mid-east /is/ a war zone. >we looked the other way in the 1930s and Pearl >Harbor struck ... 9/11 was another Pearl Harbor ... I assume you know the old joke - the Yanks were late for the last two world wars, so they're damn' sure gonna be early for the next one... -- Mark McIntyre ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:56:08 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <59525$469187dd$cef8887a$31158@TEKSAVVY.COM> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: >> An important point here - we are a representative Republic, not a pure >> democracy. > > Yes, a practical matter which no-one disputes. But nothing to do with the fact that the Democratic party in the USA chose a leader that lost fair and square against Bush (in 2004), a president which, in most civilised nations with open media would have been sent to a war crimes tribunal instead of being allowed to run for office again. And this has to do with the USA media who made conscious editorial decisions to support the Bush invasion of Iraq and hide the lies and atrocities performed by americans there because their corporate owners decided the ratings would be better. (and rememeber that large corporations benefit from military contracts, so they have a vested interest to see war continue). The Blackstone group is buying the Hilton chain of hotels (and I guess Paris Hilton comes with it :-) with money they have made from their mercenary contracts in Iraq where their employees do not have to operate under US military code of conduct and are free to do what needs to be done. The failure of opposition in the USA has resulted in the continued operation of a concentration camp at Gantanamo where the victims are not given the right to due legal process and were randomly picked from the streets in afghanistan and anywhere the USA wanted to kidnap people. The failure of the USA media and Democratic party has resulted in americans not beleiving that the USA has conducted torture. What is really sad in all this is that all those guilty of those crimes (Bush, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney principally) will just retire and americans will not prosecute them. They should be prosecuted for war crimes to send 2 messages: 1- a message to the rest of the world that the USA realises its mistakes and is taking action against the perpetrators. 2- a message to history and future politicians that such actions are not to be tolerated and that they will spend the rest of their lives in hell. Future politicians should be forced to think twice before lying and launching an illgal unnecessary war. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:44:50 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46919306$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > The majority of voters DID elect Bush the second time. The majority of > voters did NOT elect Bush the first time, but he had a majority in the > electoral system. One reason for the lack of credibility of the USA in > the world is that they claim to be a democratic society, but the person > who got the most popular votes (Al Gore, despite a) Nader getting an > appreciable chunk of his votes (see below) and b) all the problems in > Florida) did not get elected. If, say, Milosovic had implemented such > an electoral system in Yugoslavia, the rest of the world would have > (rightly) said "Whom are you trying to fool?". That is not a US only system. UK parliament election is the same. France experimented with that system at some point in time. It may not be perfect, but it has been recognized for centuries as being one way of doing democratic elections. I would not compare it with Milosovic. Gore is an educated man and he knew how the system worked. It has happened once or twice before that the majority among the electorates did not match the majority among the voters. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:32:28 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: On 07/08/07 19:56, JF Mezei wrote: [snip] > > The Blackstone group is buying the Hilton chain of hotels (and I guess > Paris Hilton comes with it :-) with money they have made from their > mercenary contracts in Iraq where their employees do not have to operate > under US military code of conduct and are free to do what needs to be done. What the heck are you *talking* about???????????? The Blackstone Group is a private equity firm that owns many other hospitality & amusement companies. Oh, wait. You're talking about Blackwater USA, the "security" firm. Ha. ROTFLMAO. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:42:15 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: In article <7S0+DaFBkO4+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <000c01c7c172$41e13820$c5a3a860$@com>, "Paul Raulerson" > writes: > > > Which would instantly mean you would block out messages in other languages, > > since they often need to be quoted. > > 1. Not in any message I have ever received. > > 2. Not in any fashion that I could read it if it did happen. > > > Works fine for English, but we live in a connected world. > > Just as a message that will not be delivered should be rejected in the > SMTP dialog, so should any message that cannot be read by the recipient, > so the originator will know to translate before sending. > > > Besides, it would be easier to update or upgrade the mail program I would > > think. > > Since you think it is easy to "update" VMSmail, you can go ahead and > get HP to do that. Contact me when you have that done and I will put > you in contact with my ISP and you can try to convince them of the > value of upgrading VMS to get the new version. > It appears to depend on the VMS mail server in use. I can happily exchange e-mails containing accented characters between my Mac and my account on Eisner, which is running PMDF and Multinet. They come through like this: Mail received on Eisner: ---- MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ---- Mail composed on Eisner (using SET/TERMINAL/EIGHTBIT in an SSH session to get accented characters) received on the Mac: ---- MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT ---- However, sending from either system to my Alpha running TCP/IP Services results in ---- MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---- -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:08:46 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Quoted Printable in Messages (Subject Changed) Message-ID: Quoted-printable is still readable with VMSmail. Not pretty, and you miss a few characters here and there (such as accented characters). But still readable. But text that is encoded in base64 is absolutely unreadable, unless you have a base64 decoder. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:02:50 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <3AAACA70-423A-4A51-9BF4-8EA2DC51E27A@raulersons.com> Ah, that does make some sense. Typically, I would address that with multiple hardware systems (okay, DS8000 or ES800's! I don't know the HP equivalents yet!). If the beasties are connected (which they would surely be...) they can replicate data to each other without any issues, and SAN fail-over in the case of a disaster is plenty fast. Never had one of those beasties fail yet, though they have lost drives and power supplies and whatnot. I tend to veer away from host based solutions (even fairly elegant ones like you describe) because I don't have any totally homogeneous environments. I always have to support multiple systems with multiple access requirements. Very elegant indeed. -Paul On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:41 AM, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Raulerson [mailto:paul@raulersons.com] >> Sent: July 8, 2007 10:44 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) >> >> Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider >> shadowing? >> Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data protection as >> well. If in a >> hot-swap array, it also means zero downtime for your system. >> >> In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can >> not see >> any need at all for shadowing. :) >> >> Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very >> cool >> capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot >> figure out >> why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base >> product >> though. :) >> >> -Paul >> > > > [Snip ..] > > Paul, > > High end OpenVMS systems typically use a combination of HW and host > based techniques like shadowing to ensure max Application uptime. > > HW controller techniques is often used to ensure availability after a > disk drive fails or to increase throughput at the disk level. > > Host based shadowing (HBVS) is used to ensure availability after a HW > RAID controller or controller pair fails or to increase throughput > across HW controllers. > > Host based shadowing is also used to ensure availability after a site > fails in an active-active multi-site cluster or to increase throughput > across sites i.e. load balancing the same workloads across sites. > > As an example: > > $1$App1 might be how a shadowed disk appears to an application via a > logical. This might translate at lower levels to: > - $1$DSA140 which is a host based volume shadowing device with > physical > members $1$DUA141 and $1$DUA142 which then might translate at a lower > level to: > - $1$DUA141 is a HW RAID RAID5 or RAID0+1 HW device on site1 that > consists of multiple disks in the local HW controller. > - $1$DUA142 is a HW RAID RAID5 or RAID0+1 HW device on site2 that > consists of multiple disks in the local HW controller. > > Hence, a failure of a disk drive on site1 or site2 gets replaced and > then rebuilt at the local site with no impact on the local systems or > multi-site link. > > Another strategy sometimes used by very HA environments in single site > environments is to use host based shadowing across multiple controller > pairs at the local level. > > As an example, in one large chip company I was involved with a > number of > years ago, they had a read intensive OpenVMS clustered application > with > uptime measured at approx $750K per hour. > > We spent approx 4 months planning for a single hour of downtime, > but in > the end, it was successful and we put in place a shadowed volume > strategy that had 3 physical shadow members. Each member was from a > different disk controller pair, so they could lose an entire disk > controller pair (ie. lose both RAID controllers at the "SAN" level) > and > while performance might be slowed down a bit, the app would continue. > > This got them around the potential of a FW upgrade taking out both > local > "SAN" controllers or a FS rep removing the wrong failed controller > board > (physically each controller board is about an inch apart from each > other) > > So, HW raid is good for some things, but host based also address the > limitations of a HW only approach. > > This is critical for high end environments. > > Btw, the normal overhead associated with host based shadowing is very > small on systems of Alpha vintage or later. In addition, host based > shadowing does present a bit more overhead with write activity as the > write needs to be complete on all members before it is considered > complete, so it depends on the application environment. > > In addition, some Cust's will use HBVS across disk controller > pairs, but > then implement a comb of disk controller write through caching (DB > journal files) and write back caching strategies (DB data) to maximize > overall throughput as well as ensure no impact on data integrity. > > > Regards > > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-592-4660 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:31:28 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] >>Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: John E. Malmberg [mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network] >>>> >>> >>>>I have tried it on Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 on test systems. >>> >>> >>>>It created RAID sets quite well, and they survived the failure. >>>> >>>>It was the mystic rituals that you had to follow when the raid set >>>>containing the drive 0 (boot volume) was degraded and a reboot was >>>>required which were different than the mystic rituals that were >>>>needed after the drive was replaced to get rebuilt. >>>> >>>>And I have never seen any documentation for those rituals other than >>>>what I wrote up personally as a result of those experiments. The >>>>rituals also varied considerably based on what disk adapter was in >>>>use. >> >>>>Much of the problem was directly caused by the BIOS limitations in >>>>the PC and in the optional BIOS features of the disk adapter. >>>>Those issues will be common to LINUX. >>>> >>>Actually, Linux does not really use the PC BIOS, >> >>Really? How is the disk selected for booting when you power up or >>reset the system? > > > It uses the BIOS to load LILO or GRUB, which then switches the BIOS out of > the equation and proceeds merrily along with whatever it wants to do. This > has been pretty standard on PC systems since the Xenix days (1980's) and has > caused no end of trouble until Linux came along. With a quarter of a million > "developers" out there for Linux, things get fixed pretty fast. :) And where does it load LILO and GRUB from when drive 0 of your disk controller is either broken or a replacement disk? The only place the PC BIOS can get LILO or GRUB is from a floppy on older machines, newer machines use network or CDROMs. But that still leaves a problem of telling LILO or GRUB what the surviving disk is. Of course on LINUX there is less likelihood that you will need a reboot during the period of a system being degraded just to maintain operations. >>> and of course, the hardware adapter is going to be a problem for any >>> OS. >> >>Which updates the above BIOS as a plugin during the initial power up >>reset sequence. And some will remap drive 1 to be drive 0 in the event that drive 0 fails the power up tests. Of course that means that you need different rituals to reboot / repair a system with a degraded software raid set than on controllers that do not do the remap. All attempts to standardize on one hardware model have failed. Every time we order new back room servers, they are different than the older ones, and replacing them all in lock step is not feasible. Even on the desktops, former $dayjob could not get more than 100 actual identical units in an order. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:53:42 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <5fd16lF3cclb5U1@mid.individual.net> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > In article , "P. > Sture" writes: > >> We used VMS host based shadowing on top of that. It worked very well for >> us, but we did chicken out when someone asked for a 5 member stripe set >> (we were on 18GB disks), since the odds of losing a disk from both >> shadow sets at the same time were higher, and wanted to avoid reaching >> for 90+ GB of backup tapes. > > So you wanted to avoid shadowing 5-member stripe sets. > > What about striping shadow sets? > > Instead of > > |1| |1| > |2| |2| > |3| <--- HBVS ---> |3| > |4| |4| > |5| |5| > > use > > |1 <--- HBVS ---> 1| > |2 <--- HBVS ---> 2| > |3 <--- HBVS ---> 3| > |4 <--- HBVS ---> 4| > |5 <--- HBVS ---> 5| > > ? > > In the first case, if a single disk fails, it affects 5; in the second > case, it affects 2. Indeed, that (striping shadow sets) is what VMS Host-based RAID does. It was in very *extensive* use at my last employer. As to another poster's remark, I had stripe sets of 6x142GB shadowsets (12 spindles in all). -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:06:14 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <5fd5enF3bnps9U1@mid.individual.net> Paul Raulerson wrote: > Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider > shadowing? Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data > protection as well. If in a hot-swap array, it also means zero > downtime for your system. Actually, hardware RAID-5 does *not* give the same benefits and protection as host based shadowing! First, hardware RAID, by definition, introduces a single point of failure (not just from a power outage, but also through various storage system failures that can cause *both* controllers in a dual-redundant configuration to become unavailable (been there, seen that, more than once). HBVS can be/should be configured with no single point of failure. Second, RAID-5 has performance issues (mostly hidden in modern systems by massive caches) that can be problematic if/when you lose a RAID member. HBVS does as well during a shadow copy following a member failure, but current releases of the shadowing software (fully patched 7.3-2 and above) make that almost invisible except in rare cases. I've omitted merge impacts because those transient are very to extremely short these days. > In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can > not see any need at all for shadowing. :) I couldn't disagree more... :-( Keith Parris had a good write up several years ago about why he came to consider dual-redundant controllers, and storage-based RAID and mirrorsets, a single point of failure. For enterprise class installations, availability has to be a primary concern, and single points of failure must be avoided wherever possible. > Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very cool > capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot figure out > why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base product > though. :) I don't quite understand the first sentence above; what does the "it" refer to??? As to the rest of the paragraph, and if we're referring to VMS, shadowing (RAID-1) always required a license that was none too cheap. The fact that HBVS was/is integrated into the system was more of an engineering issue than anything else (not so easy to split off all its tentacles into a separately packaged product). This is the old, "why is DECNET an integrated product (SIP) while TCPIP Services is a layered product?" Only the engineers can say... :-) It's not as surprising that Host-based striping (RAID-0) is a layered product. It depends upon the shadowing software already being present and just adds one more layer on top of that. (As an aside, I seem to remember that on HSC40's, controller based mirroring was part of the basic software, but you needed to purchase at extra cost a license to enable the controller based striping. I have no idea why DEC did that. I also never saw an HSC40 with the striping option!) It's interesting that the "I" in RAID _used_ to stand for "Inexpensive". Now days, the cost of the storage controllers/RAID controllers is quite a bit more than that of the individual disks. (IIRC, last time I bought storage, the cost of the cabinets plus HSG80 pairs was more than the cost of the all disks they were hosting...but that will vary.) Regards, Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:27:29 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <001a01c7c1af$2bb3f500$831bdf00$@com> This is different experience on my part. I usually have multiple redundant paths to storage, and multiple controllers in a host. As in, it does not matter if you are shadowing or using RAID-5+, if you only have two controllers and both of them go down, so does the host. I don't usually use host based direct control of storage, because enterprise class storage systems rarely go all the way down and *do* have massive amounts of cache in them. They usually are populated with very hefty processors too, and lots of those. The "it" I referred to was host based shadow capability. And you are right about the cost. In trying to configure a small system, it is near impossible to control cost. What in an enterprise system is a quite reasonable cost, is in a departmental sized (or even smaller) server, quite a ridiculous cost. There are cases where the license to do something costs quite a bit more than the entire hardware system. (*sigh*) Just another obstacle to be traversed. :) I am impressed with VMS being able to traverse almost the entire range though; small servers to enterprise global configurations. Sweet. -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Fairfield [mailto:Ken@Napili.Fairfield.Home] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:06 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > Just curious- with hardware raid why did you really even consider > > shadowing? Raid-5 would give you the same benefits and data > > protection as well. If in a hot-swap array, it also means zero > > downtime for your system. > > Actually, hardware RAID-5 does *not* give the same benefits and > protection as host based shadowing! > > First, hardware RAID, by definition, introduces a single point > of failure (not just from a power outage, but also through various > storage system failures that can cause *both* controllers in a > dual-redundant configuration to become unavailable (been there, > seen that, more than once). HBVS can be/should be configured with > no single point of failure. > > Second, RAID-5 has performance issues (mostly hidden in modern > systems by massive caches) that can be problematic if/when you > lose a RAID member. HBVS does as well during a shadow copy > following a member failure, but current releases of the shadowing > software (fully patched 7.3-2 and above) make that almost > invisible except in rare cases. I've omitted merge impacts > because those transient are very to extremely short these days. > > > In a modern day shop, which enterprise class storage systems, I can > > not see any need at all for shadowing. :) > > I couldn't disagree more... :-( Keith Parris had a good write > up several years ago about why he came to consider dual-redundant > controllers, and storage-based RAID and mirrorsets, a single point > of failure. For enterprise class installations, availability has > to be a primary concern, and single points of failure must be > avoided wherever possible. > > > Of course, it makes sense on a low end system though, and is a very > cool > > capability built into the system. For the life of me, I cannot figure > out > > why RAID-0 was considered an add on product and RAID-1 was a base > product > > though. :) > > I don't quite understand the first sentence above; what does the "it" > refer to??? As to the rest of the paragraph, and if we're referring > to VMS, shadowing (RAID-1) always required a license that was none too > cheap. The fact that HBVS was/is integrated into the system was more > of an engineering issue than anything else (not so easy to split off > all its tentacles into a separately packaged product). This is the > old, "why is DECNET an integrated product (SIP) while TCPIP Services > is a layered product?" Only the engineers can say... :-) It's not > as surprising that Host-based striping (RAID-0) is a layered product. > It depends upon the shadowing software already being present and just > adds one more layer on top of that. > > (As an aside, I seem to remember that on HSC40's, controller based > mirroring was part of the basic software, but you needed to purchase > at extra cost a license to enable the controller based striping. > I have no idea why DEC did that. I also never saw an HSC40 with > the striping option!) > > It's interesting that the "I" in RAID _used_ to stand for > "Inexpensive". > Now days, the cost of the storage controllers/RAID controllers is > quite a bit more than that of the individual disks. (IIRC, last time > I bought storage, the cost of the cabinets plus HSG80 pairs was more > than the cost of the all disks they were hosting...but that will vary.) > > Regards, Ken > -- > Ken & Ann Fairfield > What: Ken dot And dot Ann > Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 18:01:09 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <0EB84CAC-2E5F-49AB-90CC-700239AFD8E2@raulersons.com> I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing through, but doggone it! I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the Character to the RIGHT of the cursor, and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to close up the line. For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, every last thing I have tried save PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to the RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out "DELETE". HOW do I fix this???????????? Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not look adequately to find the answer. :) Paul P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:56:54 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <1183949814.283470.272230@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 8, 7:01 pm, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing > through, but doggone it! > I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the Character > to the RIGHT of the cursor, > and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to close > up the line. Since when does a VT terminal or DECterm do this? (I haven't used DECterm or DECwindows since 1991, so maybe it's a new feature I haven't heard of.) You're talking about deleting on the command line or in an editor? I'm assuming the command line. > > For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, > every last thing I have tried save > PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I > wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the > remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to the > RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! What remove key? If Del is configured to be Remove, then I'd think there is no Del key. Which delete key are you talking about? Is this a PC? A Mac? > > DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out "DELETE". > > HOW do I fix this???????????? Are you trying to make the delete key on a VT keyboard that normally deletes to the left delete to the right? I think you'd have to rewrite the terminal driver. > > > > Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not look > adequately to find the answer. :) > Paul > > P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character > right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. Details please. You haven't supplied any relevant details. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:53:25 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <000101c7c1dc$b43ab260$1cb01720$@com> That is because the frustration is killing me. :) Aw well- Basically this is in the TPU editor. Using terminal emulation on a PC or a Mac, or using a DecWindows console connected directly to the little Alpha machine here. Backspace works correctly, at least in insert mode it does. The character to the LEFT of the cursor disappears and the line closes up. When I go into the terminal emulator's keyboard setup, I can see the pesky DELETE key on the PC is mapped to the REMOVE key on a DEC keyboard. And by golly, if you mark a block and hit the DELETE key, it does REMOVE the block. But I really REALLY want the delete key to this: ABCDEFG ^-------- Cursor is here ABDEFG ^---------- Cursor is still here Surely there is some way to do this... -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:57 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > On Jul 8, 7:01 pm, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > > > I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing > > through, but doggone it! > > I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the Character > > to the RIGHT of the cursor, > > and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to close > > up the line. > > Since when does a VT terminal or DECterm do this? (I haven't used > DECterm or DECwindows since 1991, so maybe it's a new feature I > haven't heard of.) > > You're talking about deleting on the command line or in an editor? > I'm assuming the command line. > > > > > For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, > > every last thing I have tried save > > PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I > > wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the > > remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to the > > RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! > > What remove key? If Del is configured to be Remove, then I'd think > there is no Del key. Which delete key are you talking about? Is this a > PC? A Mac? > > > > > DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out "DELETE". > > > > HOW do I fix this???????????? > > Are you trying to make the delete key on a VT keyboard that normally > deletes to the left delete to the right? I think you'd have to rewrite > the terminal driver. > > > > > > > > > Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not look > > adequately to find the answer. :) > > Paul > > > > P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character > > right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. > > Details please. You haven't supplied any relevant details. > > AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 22:55:06 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) Message-ID: <000201c7c1dc$f034da70$d09e8f50$@com> P.S. - You were kidding about Dec terminals not doing that, weren't you?? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: AEF [mailto:spamsink2001@yahoo.com] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:57 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: RAID (was: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also?) > > On Jul 8, 7:01 pm, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > > > I'm sure this must be just my less than urbane upbringing showing > > through, but doggone it! > > I REALLY want the DELETE key on my keyboard to DELETE the Character > > to the RIGHT of the cursor, > > and then move the entire remaining line one character LEFT to close > > up the line. > > Since when does a VT terminal or DECterm do this? (I haven't used > DECterm or DECwindows since 1991, so maybe it's a new feature I > haven't heard of.) > > You're talking about deleting on the command line or in an editor? > I'm assuming the command line. > > > > > For the life of me - PowerTerm, DecTerm under DecWindows, Putty, > > every last thing I have tried save > > PCOMM, insists on making the DELETE key the VMS REMOVE key. If I > > wanted to CUT a batch of text, I would use the > > remove key... but I wanna DELETE that blasted character right to the > > RIGHT of my cursed cursor!! > > What remove key? If Del is configured to be Remove, then I'd think > there is no Del key. Which delete key are you talking about? Is this a > PC? A Mac? > > > > > DEFINE /KEY REMOVE DELETE just makes the pesky key send out "DELETE". > > > > HOW do I fix this???????????? > > Are you trying to make the delete key on a VT keyboard that normally > deletes to the left delete to the right? I think you'd have to rewrite > the terminal driver. > > > > > > > > > Thank you, and I promise to go pound myself silly if I did not look > > adequately to find the answer. :) > > Paul > > > > P.S. I made PCOMM work by writing a Macro to move one character > > right, then backspace one. Horribly slow. > > Details please. You haven't supplied any relevant details. > > AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 14:44:06 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: SEARCH: expected result? Message-ID: <1183931046.527179.250910@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On Jul 8, 12:08 am, David J Dachtera wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > > > > In article <468FB54F.A9E0F...@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera > > writes: > > > > Zero-length records contain no data to compare. > > > Yes, but the comparison is with something else of zero length. 0=0, > > right? Note that SEARCH does count an empty line as a record. > > However, if there is nothing to compare, why attempt a comparison? The results > would be misleading, no? Well, where in a non-zero-length string is the zero-length substring? Since the entire string is highlighted, it must be everywhere. But is it not, in fact, nowhere? > Also, zero bytes of data is quite different from either a zero length string or > a null byte. How is zero bytes of data different from a zero-length string? How many bytes are in a zero-length string? Zero! What exactly is a null byte? No byte at all or a byte containing 8 zeros? OK, I guess the latter would be the null character. Whatever. Mathematically, a string can be considered to be an ordered set of characters (with replacement) or a function mapping a set of characters (replaceable) to a set of consecutive integers (usually .GE. 1 or with an "offset of zero", depending on the context). A STRING 12345678 I'm not sure at this point what to make of a zero-length string or zero-length substring. I might have to review my Analysis book which starts with a review of set theory! I haven't seen the code or listings for SEARCH but I suspect SEARCH automatically (and sensibly) skips blank lines and that later a special case for "" was added. Keep in mind that SEARCH/HIGHLIGHT highlights every character in the file, and certainly no character is part of a zero-length substring. Therefore you cannot take the meaning of "" as a search string too literally! The command SEARCH file "" does what it does. AEF > > -- > David J Dachtera > dba DJE Systemshttp://www.djesys.com/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Pagehttp://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:27:08 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: In article , ChrisSharman wrote: > Ho hum ... My Alphastation 255/233 died building libxml (presumed > coincidence). Installed DEC C 6.5+VMS731_ACRTL 4 on another machine > (also 7.3-1) and built libxml. > > Clean apart from > $ CC/NAMES=(SHORTENED)/FLOAT=IEEE/IEEE_MODE=DENORM_RESULTS - > /object=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ; > RUNTEST.C > > glob(pattern, GLOB_DOOFFS, NULL, &globbuf); > ....^ > %CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "glob" is > implicitly declared as a function. > at line number 2407 in file DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24]RUNTEST.C;9 > > globfree(&globbuf); > ....^ > %CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "globfree" is > implicitly declared as a function. > at line number 2415 in file DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24]RUNTEST.C;9 > > $ LINK - > DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;, - > XML_LIBDIR:libxml.olb/library - > /execut=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.EXE; > XML_LIBDIR:libxml.olb/library - > > /execut=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.EXE; > %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 2 undefined symbols: > %LINK-I-UDFSYM, GLOB > %LINK-I-UDFSYM, GLOBFREE > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol GLOB referenced > in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000170 > in module RUNTEST file > DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;13 > %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol GLOBFREE referenced > in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000180 > in module RUNTEST file > DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;13 > > Hoping this is unimportant ... > Sorry, can't answer the question - I didn't get this on V8.3. Did you manage to run RUNTEST reasonably error free? I got 23 errors out of something like 1023 tests. Hoff put a note in there that VMS will fail some tests due to something not being fully implemented - I need to check that out. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:56:05 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: P. Sture wrote: > In article , > ChrisSharman > wrote: > > >>Ho hum ... My Alphastation 255/233 died building libxml (presumed >>coincidence). Installed DEC C 6.5+VMS731_ACRTL 4 on another machine >>(also 7.3-1) and built libxml. >> >>Clean apart from >>$ CC/NAMES=(SHORTENED)/FLOAT=IEEE/IEEE_MODE=DENORM_RESULTS - >>/object=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ; >>RUNTEST.C >> >>glob(pattern, GLOB_DOOFFS, NULL, &globbuf); >>....^ >>%CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "glob" is >>implicitly declared as a function. >>at line number 2407 in file DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24]RUNTEST.C;9 >> >>globfree(&globbuf); >>....^ >>%CC-I-IMPLICITFUNC, In this statement, the identifier "globfree" is >>implicitly declared as a function. >>at line number 2415 in file DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24]RUNTEST.C;9 >> >>$ LINK - >>DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;, - >>XML_LIBDIR:libxml.olb/library - >>/execut=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.EXE; >>XML_LIBDIR:libxml.olb/library - >> >>/execut=DISK$WEB:[TOOLS.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.EXE; >>%LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 2 undefined symbols: >>%LINK-I-UDFSYM, GLOB >>%LINK-I-UDFSYM, GLOBFREE >>%LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol GLOB referenced >>in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000170 >>in module RUNTEST file >>DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;13 >>%LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol GLOBFREE referenced >>in psect $LINK$ offset %X00000180 >>in module RUNTEST file >>DISK$WEB:[tools.LIBXML2-2_6_24.ALPHA_OBJ]RUNTEST.OBJ;13 >> >>Hoping this is unimportant ... >> > > Sorry, can't answer the question - I didn't get this on V8.3. > > Did you manage to run RUNTEST reasonably error free? > I got 23 errors out of something like 1023 tests. Hoff put a note in > there that VMS will fail some tests due to something not being fully > implemented - I need to check that out. glob() and globfree() apparently are only available in 8.3 and later. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:08:04 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over here, well - you do what you have to do. But, the reaction to this nonsense will swing back the other way too. We still take in way more immigrants than any other country, and the ones that get here get treated with mercy and justice under the law. The U.K. is good about that too, but the news over here has been filled with hostile reactions in the U.K. about hostile immigrants lately. You have to use sense. The U.S. tends to base policy on defense and containment. Recent events not-with-standing. -Paul On Jul 8, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > on 8-7-2007 16:54 Paul Raulerson wrote... >> Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the >> U.S. system. >> Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the >> less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can >> choose to >> live where they like. > > Pretty much. I cannot choose to live in the USA. I cannot even > travel there without a visa and without all my personal details > being stored in a database in the USA. Does your freedom of > information act extend to data of non-US citizens in a US database? > I thought not. So, yours is not a free country. All people are > equal in the "1984" definition. > > /Wilm > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:33:15 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all > countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, > where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over > here Hmmm - there's a pretty good case to be made that at least a lot of the people attempting to wreak havoc here are not only entirely sane but largely justified, based on what *we* have been doing to *them* for the last few decades. Perhaps as a U.S. resident you're just a tad biased in this area - a more objective observer might suggest that, unfortunate as this may be, doing 'whatever it takes' to get us to shape up is entirely reasonable after so many decades of failure by other means. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:08:03 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > We > still take in way more immigrants than any other country, Depends on how you count them. According to the CIA world factbook 2002 the USA took in 3.5 migrants/1000 population. Canada took in 6.07/1000, Australia took in 4.12, New Zealand took in 4.48, Germany 3.99, Ireland 4.12. Australia and Canada may be the best comparisons as they are both also immigrant founded countries established at roughly the same time as the USA. On a per-capita basis you could argue the US is doing a good job, but not quite pulling it's weight in terms of accepting immigrants. > and the ones > that get here get treated with mercy and justice under the law. Same in all those other countries listed. Some would say too much mercy and justice - it can be very hard to deport an immigrant even after he/she commits a serious crime. > The > U.K. is good about that too The UK took in 1.06 immigrants/1000 population (2002 CIA estimate) >, but the news over here has been filled with > hostile reactions in the U.K. about hostile immigrants lately. > I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host country - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. Still, they are a minuscule percentage of the total immigrant population and we have to remember that the vast majority of immigrants are honest and hard-working people. > You have to use sense. The U.S. tends to base policy on defense and > containment. Recent events not-with-standing. > Unfortunately the US lately seems to have a tendency to tar their friends with the same brush as their enemies. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:46:17 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Malcolm Dunnett wrote: ... > I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay > our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host > country That statement is demonstrably incorrect, since I (for one) do not. In fact, I consider such acts to be something approaching a public service (and thus an arguably appropriate response to our 'hospitality', such as it may be): if *we* won't clean up our act, I'm at least glad that *someone* is taking steps to do something about it. > - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. It seems that you would also benefit from better acquaintance with a good dictionary (as would Dubya - perhaps you've been listening to him a bit too much, or to his puppet Tony across the pond): committing a terrorist act may be many things, but 'cowardly' is generally *not* one of them. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:10:25 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <001801c7c1ac$c9871f80$5c955e80$@com> We will have to disagree here. Nothing anyone here has done justifies or in any way excuses the actions of those people. And if you think "we" have been doing something to them, other than financing their entrance into the 20th century with oil revenues, you had best take a closer look at who "we" is. One can have sympathy for their plight, but not sympathy for their religion fueled rampage of hate. That old saw of "to understand all is to forgive all" is wrong - there are some things that the more you understand what they really are, the more you realize those things are just wrong and should not be tolerated. And this is really *really* off topic. Let's take any further discussion to e-mail, okay? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 3:33 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all > > countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, > > where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over > > here > > Hmmm - there's a pretty good case to be made that at least a lot of the > people attempting to wreak havoc here are not only entirely sane but > largely justified, based on what *we* have been doing to *them* for the > last few decades. Perhaps as a U.S. resident you're just a tad biased > in this area - a more objective observer might suggest that, > unfortunate > as this may be, doing 'whatever it takes' to get us to shape up is > entirely reasonable after so many decades of failure by other means. > > - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:14:25 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <469161C1.12AA35B0@spam.comcast.net> Bill Todd wrote: > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > Well, I can understand you are notably annoyed at that, but all > > countries have the right to defend themselves. In times like these, > > where there are non-sane people out there trying to kill people over > > here > > Hmmm - there's a pretty good case to be made that at least a lot of the > people attempting to wreak havoc here are not only entirely sane but > largely justified, based on what *we* have been doing to *them* for the > last few decades. Perhaps as a U.S. resident you're just a tad biased > in this area - a more objective observer might suggest that, unfortunate > as this may be, doing 'whatever it takes' to get us to shape up is > entirely reasonable after so many decades of failure by other means. (Donning full armor) Perhaps you might like to suggest to the group what the U.S. has done that - to the "sane" mind - in any way justifies the wanton destruction of the innocent that has become the norm of terrorism and the goal of the radical fundamentalists. Please restrict your citations to the U.S.'s actions against those who are attacking us, and leave out actions taken by the U.S. to support/protect its political/commercial allies. Otherwise silent lurkers in those areas sourcing the bulk of the radical fundamentalist terrorists should feel free to chime in at this point. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 17:20:02 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <001901c7c1ae$2193c0b0$64bb4210$@com> I unfortunately, and unclearly had an unspoken assumption. I live in Texas, and there are 10x the number of illegal immigrants, compared to the number of legal immigrants. In general, we don't do anything about them, but they do get to take advantage of free public schools for their kids, and the normal social services like heath care. In general, we don't get to terribly upset about that, anymore than Canada did with people dodging the draft back in the 1960's and 1970's. But it is a terrific load. There are parts of Austin where people have *five* generations living together, and none of them have assimilated into the culture yet. Most do not even speak English - and in some cases are inordinately proud of it. The U.S. is known as the great melting pot for a reason; all cultures wind up assimilating into more or less an acceptable norm. It just takes time, and immigration has traditionally been in "waves", with time for each group to settle in between the waves. Illegal immigration from Mexico and Central America is a full fledged flood right now - far more than any country can be expected to handle. The Arabs on the other hand, do not take immigrants, even of their own beliefs. And when they immigrate, they *demand* that all around accommodate their beliefs. Not all people are that way of course, but the radicals in there are just like the chickenhawk Jacobian NeoCons here who got us into this problem. ;) -Paul -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Malcolm Dunnett [mailto:nothome@spammers.are.scum] > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 4:08 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > We > > still take in way more immigrants than any other country, > > Depends on how you count them. According to the CIA world > factbook 2002 the USA took in 3.5 migrants/1000 population. > > Canada took in 6.07/1000, Australia took in 4.12, New Zealand > took in 4.48, Germany 3.99, Ireland 4.12. > > Australia and Canada may be the best comparisons as they are > both also immigrant founded countries established at roughly > the same time as the USA. On a per-capita basis you could > argue the US is doing a good job, but not quite pulling it's > weight in terms of accepting immigrants. > > > and the ones > > that get here get treated with mercy and justice under the law. > > Same in all those other countries listed. Some would say too > much mercy and justice - it can be very hard to deport an > immigrant even after he/she commits a serious crime. > > > The > > U.K. is good about that too > > The UK took in 1.06 immigrants/1000 population (2002 CIA estimate) > > >, but the news over here has been filled with > > hostile reactions in the U.K. about hostile immigrants lately. > > > > I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay > our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host > country - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. Still, they > are a minuscule percentage of the total immigrant population and > we have to remember that the vast majority of immigrants are > honest and hard-working people. > > > You have to use sense. The U.S. tends to base policy on defense and > > containment. Recent events not-with-standing. > > > > Unfortunately the US lately seems to have a tendency to tar their > friends with the same brush as their enemies. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:11:19 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > ... > >> I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay >> our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host >> country > > That statement is demonstrably incorrect, since I (for one) do not. In > fact, I consider such acts to be something approaching a public service > (and thus an arguably appropriate response to our 'hospitality', such as > it may be): if *we* won't clean up our act, I'm at least glad that > *someone* is taking steps to do something about it. > If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate act I guess that's your prerogative. I wonder if your opinion would change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public services". May I take it that by the same token you'd support the US (or Canadian) troops indiscriminately slaughtering a few villages in Afghanistan as a reprisal for those villagers supporting Al Quaeda? If the people of the middle east want the US out of their affairs they should follow Iran's example and hold a revolution to throw out the governments that are friendly with the west. Why aren't the terrorists taking action against those governments? >> - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. > > It seems that you would also benefit from better acquaintance with a > good dictionary (as would Dubya - perhaps you've been listening to him a > bit too much, or to his puppet Tony across the pond) If you've read any of my earlier postings on the subject you should know I have absolutely no respect for Dubya. I'm glad you have term limits and that he will have to be gone as president in under 1.5 years from now. I only hope you don't repeat the same mistake by electing a president with similar views (that's up to you Bill, you can do something about it - I can't ) : committing a > terrorist act may be many things, but 'cowardly' is generally *not* one > of them. > Pretending to be someone's friend and then stabbing them in the back is cowardly in my books. That fact that the terrorists often give up their lives in the process is no sign of bravery - they've been brainwashed into believing they get an express ticket to paradise by doing so. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 19:26:57 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <1D4F0F69-E1E9-4359-9CF0-354101CAB538@raulersons.com> What brand of KoolAid are you drinking? Or are you buying the lies in the propaganda the real bad guys are putting out? Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in "indiscriminately killing civilians." If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. I feel morally certain that the same is true of the Canadian and British forces, but I do not have first hand knowledge of that. -Paul On Jul 8, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Bill Todd wrote: >> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: >> ... >>> I'm sure we all feel horribly betrayed by immigrants who repay >>> our generosity by engaging in terrorists acts against their host >>> country >> That statement is demonstrably incorrect, since I (for one) do >> not. In fact, I consider such acts to be something approaching a >> public service (and thus an arguably appropriate response to our >> 'hospitality', such as it may be): if *we* won't clean up our >> act, I'm at least glad that *someone* is taking steps to do >> something about it. > > If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may > have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate > act I guess that's your prerogative. I wonder if your opinion would > change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public > services". > > May I take it that by the same token you'd support the US (or > Canadian) troops indiscriminately slaughtering a few villages in > Afghanistan as a reprisal for those villagers supporting Al Quaeda? > > If the people of the middle east want the US out of their affairs > they should follow Iran's example and hold a revolution to throw > out the governments that are friendly with the west. Why aren't the > terrorists taking action against those governments? > >>> - it's hard to imagine any act more cowardly. >> It seems that you would also benefit from better acquaintance with >> a good dictionary (as would Dubya - perhaps you've been listening >> to him a bit too much, or to his puppet Tony across the pond) > > If you've read any of my earlier postings on the subject you > should know I have absolutely no respect for Dubya. I'm glad you > have term limits and that he will have to be gone as president > in under 1.5 years from now. I only hope you don't repeat the > same mistake by electing a president with similar views (that's > up to you Bill, you can do something about it - I can't ) > > : committing a >> terrorist act may be many things, but 'cowardly' is generally >> *not* one of them. > > Pretending to be someone's friend and then stabbing them in the > back is cowardly in my books. That fact that the terrorists often > give up their lives in the process is no sign of bravery - they've > been brainwashed into believing they get an express ticket to > paradise by doing so. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:46:29 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > What brand of KoolAid are you drinking? Or are you buying the lies in > the propaganda the real bad guys are putting out? > > Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in > "indiscriminately killing civilians." > If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. > Too bad you can't read, or you'd realize I never said they did. What I did say is that if Bill believes that Al Quaeda is performing a public service by killing civilians in the US, Spain, the UK, etc then I can only presume that Bill would also agree if other forces reacted in kind and slaughtered civilians in those countries as a "public service". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:06:48 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <597e1$46918a5e$cef8887a$3508@TEKSAVVY.COM> Paul Raulerson wrote: > Who boy - it does not matter what Europeans consider about the U.S. system. > Any more than it matters what U.S. citizens consider about the > less-than-sane E.U. It's pretty much a free world, and people can choose to > live where they like. If countries did not meedle in affairs outside their own jurisdiction, that would be true. But when a country decides to meddle/intervene (economically, militarily or though propaganda radio/TV stations) into another country's affairs, then it becomes the concern of the rest of the world. People don't care what the USA does with its schooling,medical system etc as this is all within the realm of domestic policy. But people care about the USA invading another country, or mounting a propaganda war against Iran in order to justify military action later on etc etc. And people care greatly when you see the leader of a great nation lie through his teeth and go unchallenged by the supposedly democratic opposition and supposedly democratic media, especially when those lies result in the demolition of a country and killing of over 100,000 people AND the re-election of this leader in 2004 signified to the world that the american people condoned those war crimes. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:12:29 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <209CCFF5-684D-46A7-9EC6-4D6B5B59FEF2@raulersons.com> Perhaps you should take more care about what you write. That was not at all clear from what you wrote. I can read fine, what *you* wrote was: >If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may >have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate >act I guess that's your prerogative. I wonder if your opinion would >change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public services". > >May I take it that by the same token you'd support the US (or Canadian) >troops indiscriminately slaughtering a few villages in Afghanistan as a >reprisal for those villagers supporting Al Quaeda? -Paul On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:46 AM, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Paul Raulerson wrote: >> What brand of KoolAid are you drinking? Or are you buying the lies >> in the propaganda the real bad guys are putting out? > > > > > Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in > > "indiscriminately killing civilians." > > If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. > > > > Too bad you can't read, or you'd realize I never said they did. > > What I did say is that if Bill believes that Al Quaeda is > performing a public service by killing civilians in the > US, Spain, the UK, etc then I can only presume that Bill would > also agree if other forces reacted in kind and slaughtered > civilians in those countries as a "public service". > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:27:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: <4ca8c$46918f46$cef8887a$658@TEKSAVVY.COM> Paul Raulerson wrote: > Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in > "indiscriminately killing civilians." > If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. By definition, a war will indiscriminately kill civilians. You attack a country. You are *supposed* to avoid bombing residential areas and you are *suppposed* to focus on military installations. But the fact is that in any and all wars, you end up indiscriminately killing civilians. But for Iraq, remember the "shock and Awe" praise from the USA media for the USA fireworks in Bagdhad where the USA military focused on civilians infrastructure (water, electricity, telephone, and the democratic institutions that were there, namely the parliament and all ministries except that of the oil ministry. And lets not talk about the massacre done by the USA at Fallujah because 4 mercenaries of the Blackstone group had been caught and killed by the Iraqis as self defence against an unlawful combattant. And then there is videotape of US military shooting wounded , unarmed, civilians in their homes. WAR IS ALWAYS UGLY. You are very naive to believe your government's statements that Iraqis would welcome americans with open arms and flowers. Americans chose to not listen to the rest of the world who warned the USA of civil war if they invaded. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 20:49:44 -0500 From: bradhamilton@comcast.net (Brad Hamilton) Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: In article <4ca8c$46918f46$cef8887a$658@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: >[...] >And lets not talk about the massacre done by the USA at Fallujah because >4 mercenaries of the Blackstone group had been caught and killed by the >Iraqis as self defence against an unlawful combattant. And then there is >videotape of US military shooting wounded , unarmed, civilians in their >homes. [...] I may be wrong, but "Blackstone" .nes. "Blackwater", the private security group engaged in Iraq. Perhaps the two are somehow connected, but I think that the closeness in names are coincidental. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 21:05:01 -0500 From: Paul Raulerson Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: You do not understand war. Nothing done there has been indiscriminate, though there have been improper and illegal actions. War *is* ugly, it is the result of a failed political agenda. That point alone says we had poor politicians in place. And if you really check, you will find almost all the killing has been done not by U.S. forces, but by locals or imports. The Blackstone incident has two sides; our troops are there to come to the rescue of civilians. Note however that most of the Blackstone people were British, and were British lead. Not U.S. And anyway, where is that righteous anger about what the other side is doing? Tell me, do you see Arab-Americans running around doing what the Sunnis and Shia are doing to each other? I sure don't. The occasional crazy does not count. Why not? Perhaps because they are sane? Or at least more sane. Same applies (or applied) to the Irish by the way. -Paul On Jul 8, 2007, at 8:27 PM, JF Mezei wrote: > Paul Raulerson wrote: >> Let me be very clear: No branch of the U.S. Military engages in >> "indiscriminately killing civilians." >> If you think otherwise, then you are quite simply wrong. > > > By definition, a war will indiscriminately kill civilians. You > attack a country. You are *supposed* to avoid bombing residential > areas and you are *suppposed* to focus on military installations. > But the fact is that in any and all wars, you end up > indiscriminately killing civilians. > > But for Iraq, remember the "shock and Awe" praise from the USA > media for the USA fireworks in Bagdhad where the USA military > focused on civilians infrastructure (water, electricity, telephone, > and the democratic institutions that were there, namely the > parliament and all ministries except that of the oil ministry. > > And lets not talk about the massacre done by the USA at Fallujah > because 4 mercenaries of the Blackstone group had been caught and > killed by the Iraqis as self defence against an unlawful > combattant. And then there is videotape of US military shooting > wounded , unarmed, civilians in their homes. > > WAR IS ALWAYS UGLY. You are very naive to believe your government's > statements that Iraqis would welcome americans with open arms and > flowers. Americans chose to not listen to the rest of the world who > warned the USA of civil war if they invaded. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 04:51:52 GMT From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: [OT] July the 4th Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > Perhaps you should take more care about what you write. That was > not at all clear from what you wrote. > > I can read fine, what *you* wrote was: > > >If you think indiscriminately killing civilians (many of whom may > >have agreed with your view on US foreign policy) is an appropriate > >act I guess that's your prerogative. I wonder if your opinion would > >change if someone close to you was killed by one of these "public > services". You do realize this was in response to Bill saying that the Al-Quaeda terrorists were performing a public service by their attacks, don't you? > > > >May I take it that by the same token you'd support the US (or Canadian) > >troops indiscriminately slaughtering a few villages in Afghanistan as a > >reprisal for those villagers supporting Al Quaeda? Where in that do I say it has been done? I asked Bill if he would support such an action, since he appears to feel it's ok for the "other side" to do so. I think it's clear the point is that if it's ok for Al-Quadea to deliberately slaughter civilians it must be ok for the coalition troops to do so as well ( the point being that it's not appropriate for either group to engage in such tactics ) I do apologize for implying you're an idiot. I don't like to stoop to that level even though you did the same to me. I overreacted to you jumping on what I wrote since it appears you couldn't bother to read it in the context in which it was presented. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.371 ************************