INFO-VAX Thu, 05 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 363 Contents: Re: Another opportunity Re: Another opportunity Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Re: expanding shadow size Re: expanding shadow size Re: expanding shadow size Re: expanding shadow size Re: expanding shadow size Re: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Re: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Re: Question for the Group Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) list!) Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) list!) Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page VISTA Migrating to OpenVMS Integrity Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server) What happen to the Deathrow cluster Re: What happen to the Deathrow cluster Re: XML for VMS Re: XML for VMS Re: XML for VMS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:47:27 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468c237a$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few years > ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. More and better control structure, more data types, extension mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. I don't think it will happen. A server shell language is not a sales point today. If a VMS user wants something else, then they can look at Perl or Python. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:21:58 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <468C55C6.6080600@comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> How would you "improve' DCL. Since they added IF/THEN/ELSE a few >> years ago, it's been just about perfect. :-) > > > If DCL was to be redone today, then it would be different. > > More and better control structure, more data types, extension > mechanism (read: user defined lexicals) etc.. > > I don't think it will happen. > > A server shell language is not a sales point today. > > If a VMS user wants something else, then they can > look at Perl or Python. > > Arne DCL was not really intended as a utility programming language although some people use it that way. I have heard a report of a DCL program that occupies 400 pages of "greenbar" paper. Whatever it was should probably have been written in some other language. I suspect that it's a nightmare to maintain! The biggest piece of DCL that I ever wrote is about six pages and a couple of those pages are devoted to comments. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:19:23 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <468c1ce7$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >> But the conclusion is that Kerry arguments against Linux does not >> hold water. >> >> Because if those systems where running Linux - how many security >> patches would have been installed on them in that period ? > Thank you - you just made my point. > > :-) The answer is zero. > With 5-20 Linux (and Windows) security patches being released each > and every month, this company would not get approval from the > business units to test and apply all these patches against all the > important apps, Yep. Noone would even ask them, because noone would want to apply all those patches. > so the business would have to risk not being hacked > with all of these well documented security patches not being applied. > > With 50-60% of all security issues being internal related, that is a > huge risk. I don't think so. You seem to think that all security patches apply to all systems they do not. Systems that live a nice comfortable life far away from internet and PC's do not get all those patches. > And think about this in the financial sector with systems running > billions (and in some OpenVMS systems, trillions) of $'s through > their systems daily, weekly, monthly. With all of the internal people > taking laptops, PDA's back and forth to home, on the road and work > etc all open for Trojans, worms etc that are looking for systems with > documented holes to exploit. > > It really blows me away that serious financial institutions can > justify moving to Linux (Windows) with so many monthly security > patches being released each and every month. > > I can only believe that the managers involved have no idea of the > security issues their techies or those pushing these platforms are > exposing the business to. Some may not. Other may actually understand the different security requirement for different types of systems. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:24:35 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <468c1e1f$0$90264$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Cobol likely is the most portable code on the planet. What platform does > not have a Cobol compiler and how many issues does one run into when > switching platforms? Very few .. True. But it may be slightly misleading because COBOL is not a widely used language for platform specific stuff. > Seen one major application dev project in the Govt ($40M original, now > greater than $150M and 3 years late) here finally start to fall to > pieces. The Dev group has been blaming Operations (they are not > responding quick enough or supporting us), Mgmt (if we only had more > $'s), the platform (OpenVMS), the DB (Oracle bugs) and so on and so on > . > > Bottom line is that I know if someone were to review the CV's of the > lead App/EA folks involved, they would find precious little experience > in delivering any previous major app roll-out. [Hint - technology is > only a small part of the equation.] So true. There are no programming language or framework that sufficient bad programmers can not turn into a disaster project. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:09:01 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <468C52BD.2040605@comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: > >> Cobol likely is the most portable code on the planet. What platform does >> not have a Cobol compiler and how many issues does one run into when >> switching platforms? Very few .. > > > True. > > But it may be slightly misleading because COBOL is not a widely > used language for platform specific stuff. > >> Seen one major application dev project in the Govt ($40M original, now >> greater than $150M and 3 years late) here finally start to fall to >> pieces. The Dev group has been blaming Operations (they are not >> responding quick enough or supporting us), Mgmt (if we only had more >> $'s), the platform (OpenVMS), the DB (Oracle bugs) and so on and so on >> . >> >> Bottom line is that I know if someone were to review the CV's of the >> lead App/EA folks involved, they would find precious little experience >> in delivering any previous major app roll-out. [Hint - technology is >> only a small part of the equation.] > > > So true. > > There are no programming language or framework that sufficient > bad programmers can not turn into a disaster project. > > Arne And there are damned few projects of any size that management cannot turn into a disaster. 1. Insufficient resources to complete 2. "Dynamic" specifications or "that's what we wanted last week!" 3. Meetings never got any code written! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:41:16 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <468c5a48$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> There are no programming language or framework that sufficient >> bad programmers can not turn into a disaster project. > > And there are damned few projects of any size that management cannot > turn into a disaster. > 1. Insufficient resources to complete > 2. "Dynamic" specifications or "that's what we wanted last week!" > 3. Meetings never got any code written! #1 and #3 are very common. #2 is a problem, but a problem that software development need to be able to handle. The let us do requirements, freeze them and then develop for 18 months methodology does not work in all contexts. The product needs to adapt to changing business requirements. It is not an easy process to manage well, but it can be necessary. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:32:55 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <468C6667.6060904@comcast.net> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> >>> There are no programming language or framework that sufficient >>> bad programmers can not turn into a disaster project. >> >> >> And there are damned few projects of any size that management cannot >> turn into a disaster. >> 1. Insufficient resources to complete >> 2. "Dynamic" specifications or "that's what we wanted last week!" >> 3. Meetings never got any code written! > > > #1 and #3 are very common. > > #2 is a problem, but a problem that software development need > to be able to handle. The let us do requirements, freeze them > and then develop for 18 months methodology does not work in > all contexts. The product needs to adapt to changing business > requirements. It is not an easy process to manage well, but it > can be necessary. > > Arne #2 is a problem that can consume programming resources forever. At my last job, one of the divisions, McBee Systems, had a sales force that worked on commission! There were three programmers full time on the sales commission system because management changed it every couple of months! I suspect that it was a miracle that the code worked at all! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 00:58:35 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Could Tom Perkins save VMS ? Message-ID: http://www.wired.com/culture/design/magazine/15-07/ff_boat Tom Perkins (former HP board member who left during that unethical inquiry) built himself a new small sailboat. (click on the photo at the to for the image gallery, but that requires javascript). Note the last paragraph in the article where Perkins says he doesn't want his new ship being controller by Bill gates and having to alt-ctrl-del all the time. Perkins is a venture capitalist. His little new sailboat shows that he does have some spare pocket change. I wonder if it might be possible to approach Perkins and suggest to him that he buy VMS from HP and then get Bruden, Process and Hoffmanlabs to to the system maintenance sales etc ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:58:55 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > Can I use /LIMIT and/or /SIZE to make them appear identical to the VAX? > Disk $6$DKA0:, device type DEC RZ2DA-LA, is online, member of shadow set > DSA10:, > Disk $6$DKA100:, device type QUANTUM ATLAS V 9 SCA, is online, member of > shadow > set DSA10: With the Dissimilar Device Shadowing (DDS) capabiliites of current OpenVMS Alpha and OpenVMS I64 releases starting with V7.3-2, yes. With OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2, do remember to read the following release note: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6668/6668pro_007.html No DDS on OpenVMS VAX. As for options here, you'll have to use an intelligent RAID controller or such here, and set the controller(s) to present the same numbers of blocks for each member of the shadowset for use on OpenVMS VAX. Or acquire some similarly-sized disks, and roll forward and retire the present devices. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:06:52 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Dissimillar Drives (Was Re: expanding shadow size) Message-ID: On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:58:55 -0700, Stephen Hoffman wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > >> Can I use /LIMIT and/or /SIZE to make them appear identical to the VAX? >> Disk $6$DKA0:, device type DEC RZ2DA-LA, is online, member of shadow >> set DSA10:, >> Disk $6$DKA100:, device type QUANTUM ATLAS V 9 SCA, is online, member >> of shadow >> set DSA10: > > With the Dissimilar Device Shadowing (DDS) capabiliites of current > OpenVMS Alpha and OpenVMS I64 releases starting with V7.3-2, yes. > > With OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2, do remember to read the following release > note: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6668/6668pro_007.html > > No DDS on OpenVMS VAX. > > As for options here, you'll have to use an intelligent RAID > controller or such here, and set the controller(s) to present the same > numbers of blocks for each member of the shadowset for use on OpenVMS > VAX. Or acquire some similarly-sized disks, and roll forward and retire > the present devices. > I my question was whether was a way using qualifiers such as /LIMIT and /SIZE to make dissimilar drives look the same to the VAX. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:29:42 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <468be717$1@flight> Klaus-D. Bohn wrote: > Now, i think i understand the mechanism much better. > I will remove my statement "that is very crazy and not acceptable" :-). > I have a question about expanding the volume size in conjunction with dissimilar device sizes in the shadowset. I built a 1 member shadowset containing a 9GB disk drive. I set the expansion limit to the maximum. I added in a 72GB disk drive to the shadowset. VMS does a shadow copy operation, but only copies to the first 9GB of the 72gb disk (since that is the current volume size ). I added in a second 72GB disk drive (same thing, copies the 9GB drive to the first 9GB of the 72GB drive). I remove the 9GB drive from the shadowset. VMS now shows the set as containing a total of 72GB physical, with a logical volume size of 9GB I do a "SET VOLUME/SIZE" on the shadowset, VMS now shows the logical volume as also being 72GB. The part I don't understand is where does VMS make sure that the "new" 63GB available in the shadowset are identical on both volumes. I would have expected it to initiate a shadow copy operation on one of the disks (at least the top 63GB) to ensure they are identical, but I didn't see that happen. I presume VMS uses some other mechanism to make sure both disks contain the same data, but I don't know what it is. Can someone explain what takes care of making sure these two disks are in synch? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:37:31 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <468BE8EB.80700@comcast.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Klaus-D. Bohn wrote: > > >> Now, i think i understand the mechanism much better. >> I will remove my statement "that is very crazy and not acceptable" :-). >> > > I have a question about expanding the volume size in conjunction > with dissimilar device sizes in the shadowset. > > I built a 1 member shadowset containing a 9GB disk drive. I > set the expansion limit to the maximum. > > I added in a 72GB disk drive to the shadowset. VMS does a > shadow copy operation, but only copies to the first 9GB of > the 72gb disk (since that is the current volume size ). > > I added in a second 72GB disk drive (same thing, copies > the 9GB drive to the first 9GB of the 72GB drive). > > I remove the 9GB drive from the shadowset. VMS now shows > the set as containing a total of 72GB physical, with > a logical volume size of 9GB > > I do a "SET VOLUME/SIZE" on the shadowset, VMS now shows > the logical volume as also being 72GB. > > The part I don't understand is where does VMS make sure > that the "new" 63GB available in the shadowset are identical > on both volumes. I would have expected it to initiate a > shadow copy operation on one of the disks (at least the top > 63GB) to ensure they are identical, but I didn't see that > happen. I presume VMS uses some other mechanism to make > sure both disks contain the same data, but I don't know what > it is. > > Can someone explain what takes care of making sure these > two disks are in synch? Can you explain WHY the unused space should be identical? As far as I can see, it would make no difference if the unused space held random garbage or was all zeroes. No one expects the unused space to contain anything useful so it need not be identical. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 18:53:06 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: In article <468be717$1@flight>, Malcolm Dunnett writes: > I do a "SET VOLUME/SIZE" on the shadowset, VMS now shows > the logical volume as also being 72GB. > > The part I don't understand is where does VMS make sure > that the "new" 63GB available in the shadowset are identical > on both volumes. I would have expected it to initiate a > shadow copy operation on one of the disks (at least the top > 63GB) to ensure they are identical, but I didn't see that > happen. I presume VMS uses some other mechanism to make > sure both disks contain the same data, but I don't know what > it is. My GUESS is that VMS does nothing since it doesn't matter. When those new blocks get written by VMS, shadowing will keep things in synch. Before that, it doesn't matter. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 12:11:16 -0700 From: Ken Fairfield Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <5f29qfF3bjbodU1@mid.individual.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Klaus-D. Bohn wrote: > > >> Now, i think i understand the mechanism much better. >> I will remove my statement "that is very crazy and not acceptable" :-). >> > > I have a question about expanding the volume size in conjunction > with dissimilar device sizes in the shadowset. > > I built a 1 member shadowset containing a 9GB disk drive. I > set the expansion limit to the maximum. > > I added in a 72GB disk drive to the shadowset. VMS does a > shadow copy operation, but only copies to the first 9GB of > the 72gb disk (since that is the current volume size ). > > I added in a second 72GB disk drive (same thing, copies > the 9GB drive to the first 9GB of the 72GB drive). > > I remove the 9GB drive from the shadowset. VMS now shows > the set as containing a total of 72GB physical, with > a logical volume size of 9GB > > I do a "SET VOLUME/SIZE" on the shadowset, VMS now shows > the logical volume as also being 72GB. > > The part I don't understand is where does VMS make sure > that the "new" 63GB available in the shadowset are identical > on both volumes. I would have expected it to initiate a > shadow copy operation on one of the disks (at least the top > 63GB) to ensure they are identical, but I didn't see that > happen. I presume VMS uses some other mechanism to make > sure both disks contain the same data, but I don't know what > it is. > > Can someone explain what takes care of making sure these > two disks are in synch? Check the recent docs for INITIALIZE/SHADOW and related. The INIT/SHAD allows one to avoid the initial shadow copy when the shadow set is first formed, and the docs suggest using INIT/SHAD/ERASE to assure both (or all) members are "zeroed out", and therefore consistent, to speed any subsequent merge operation. It looks like expanding a shadow set as above makes use of this mechanism of *not* forcing a copy or merge immediately. (If you had a system crash, you *will* suffer a merge, which will function as a somewhat slower-than-usual copy in the present case, assuming dissimilar data on the two disks.) I think the expectation is for you to use SET SHADOW/DEMAND_MERGE at a *convenient* time to make the members consistent. Also, I *strongly* suggest those using FC disks to configure host-based mini-merge: it works *really*, *really* well! -Ken -- Ken & Ann Fairfield What: Ken dot And dot Ann Where: Gmail dot Com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 14:48:04 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: expanding shadow size Message-ID: <468c1595$1@flight> Ken Fairfield wrote: > Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > > Check the recent docs for INITIALIZE/SHADOW and related. > The INIT/SHAD allows one to avoid the initial shadow copy > when the shadow set is first formed, and the docs suggest > using INIT/SHAD/ERASE to assure both (or all) members are > "zeroed out", and therefore consistent, to speed any > subsequent merge operation. > I guess it doesn't really matter if the new space is identical on each disk as it hasn't been written and so no expectations should be made about getting anything meaningful from an unwritten block (including getting the same "garbage" on a subsequent read) - it just seemed like the "right thing" to do. Whenever I have used a hardware based raid solution to create a mirrorset the controller initializes the set by doing a full copy from one disk to the other - it just seemed that HBVS would want to do the same thing. > It looks like expanding a shadow set as above makes use of > this mechanism of *not* forcing a copy or merge immediately. > (If you had a system crash, you *will* suffer a merge, which > will function as a somewhat slower-than-usual copy in the > present case, assuming dissimilar data on the two disks.) > Also, I *strongly* suggest those using FC disks to configure > host-based mini-merge: it works *really*, *really* well! > I use it. I love it!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 23:17:18 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Message-ID: Main, Kerry schrieb: > > Wrong .. IBM has many internal businesses with their view of the future > just like HP does. Overall, however, if you were moving off AIX, they > would push you towards another IBM platform - likely Linux. > > Reference: (from 2003, but shows internal battles) > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-982512.html?tag=fd_lede2_hed > "IBM: Linux is the 'logical successor'" > > "Asked whether IBM's eventual goal is to replace AIX with Linux, Mills > responded, "It's fairly obvious we're fine with that idea...It's the > logical successor." > Oh come on, this is pretty ancient (2003) stuff, and, BTW, he dropped those words on the occasion of a Linux convention. What should he say there, that Linux sucks and AIX rules ? In the mean time, a lot has happened which makes it somehow unlikely that IBM will drop AIX in favor of Linux: 2004: AIX 5.3 release 2005: AIX collaboration centre, $200M budget. http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19050.wss 2006: 20 years AIX http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/19126.wss 2007: AIX 6 beta, IBM about to drop the 'L' (for Linux), AIX 7 on the horizon http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/26/six_aix_ibm/ IBM also just released an application environment, pAVE, allowing execution of x86-Linux binaries on AIX/Power boxes http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/p/linux/systempave.html?ca=p5&met=systempave&me=W&P_Site=p5feature (Following your logic one would have expected it the other way round) You may also inspect their hardware products page, for example the p505Q http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/p/hardware/entry/505q/browse.html ($5500 for a quadcore non-x86 box isn't too shabby, BTW) If one wants decent OS support, Linux isn't cheaper than AIX ( 5L vs Open Power Edition), which I would have expected if IBM were pushing Linux over their native product. All in all, actions speak more than words. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:53:33 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: HP "Support" for OpenVMS Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: ... Treat VMS as the Flagship OS it is, > add in Linux, HP's variety of Linux, and Windows and well... boy... it can > really have potential to fly. What a coincidence: that's *precisely* the strategy that a sizable group of us presented in some detail to Michael Capellas (then CEO of Compaq) 7 years ago. We got an email handshake and a hand-off to then-VMS-VP Rich Marcello, who received three of us graciously in person with his immediate staff but whose hands turned out to be tightly tied when it came to actually moving in that direction (and in fact VMS has moved, albeit slowly, in precisely the opposite direction ever since). In other words, don't hold your breath. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:30:51 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468c1f97$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: >>> So are you saying that this is what a med shop must do every >>> month for >>> the 100+ Linux servers running all different versions of Linux? >> They are not running 100 different versions of Linux more than they >> are running 100 different versions of VMS or Solaris or z/OS. > > Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory and > version information for multi-platform consolidation projects, there > are very few shops (none that I have found to date) that are running > the same version of Linux on their many different Dev/Test/Prod Linux > environments. And these systems can number in the hundreds when you > factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed environments in many different > sites. > > Different IT groups have different versions and different commitments > to change and configuration management standards. Same as for any other OS. > Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but when > you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each and > every month, with different groups using different versions, it > becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different > environments current with the latest App and Kernel security patches. > > And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the important > Apps with these security patches before they are released to Prod. Most of those systems does not get all those patches. >>> And what >>> do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns to >>> apply these security patches? >> They don't. > > Since typically no production shop can shut down important services > without getting approvals from the business, are you saying they > don't apply these monthly security patches? Depends on what systems. Those systems in direct contact with potential hostile users get patches. The backend where all the critical apps that may need retest if touched does not. >>> Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with understanding >>> the real Operations challenges when compared to more enterprise class >>> platforms. >> Let us understand that out in the real world companies are moving >> to Linux. > > Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take over > the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize the real > costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security patches released > each and every month. Linux will not take over the world next year. The patch problem is not really a problem. So do not expect that to have any effect. > And for those that think they can hide behind a good firewall and not > apply all these security patches, remember that 50-60% of all > security issues are internal related. Yes. And as I have already asked in another thread without getting an answer: how many of those 50-60% uses security holes in software ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:34:15 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <468c2061$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > Here is something to consider. A new trend is developing (and being > promoted by big SW companies like SAP) is Tier consolidation whereby OS > instances are reduced by placing the App server(s) on the same server as > the DB. Since most servers are only running less than 20% in peak time, > this makes a lot of sense - you just need to ensure things like workload > mgmt are in place to ensure one process does not do something silly and > impact other processes. No big deal as this has been a practice on many > other platforms for years (including OpenVMS). > > You not only eliminate OS instances, but also network latency issues, as > well as provide a common OS environment for doing batch jobs. > > Now, ask your Dev team that is hot for Linux how they plan to address > this growing trend in the future i.e. a common platform for the App > server, db and batch environment. > > Want to bet they will say they need a separate server for each > Application and DB? They may or they may not. There are nothing preventing them from doing the same thing on Linux. Why do you think Xen was added to RHEL 5 ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:36:20 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Main, Kerry wrote: >> Now, ask your Dev team that is hot for Linux how they plan to address >> this growing trend in the future i.e. a common platform for the App >> server, db and batch environment. >> >> Want to bet they will say they need a separate server for each >> Application and DB? > > They may or they may not. > > There are nothing preventing them from doing the same thing > on Linux. > > Why do you think Xen was added to RHEL 5 ? Xen certainly works nicely for this approach. With the Parallels (US$49) package, I can run Mac OS X, Windows as far back as MS-DOS, Linux, and other x86-class operating systems -- and on the same box. Underneath, there can be Mac OS X, any of various Windows, or Linux platforms. And various guest operating systems. And as the product name indicates, in parallel. This whether you're running your software on an Xserve or a ProLiant box, or on some other iron. It might be entertaining to load and fire up SIMH or another hardware emulation on one of that tool's various platforms, and running that platform as a guest underneath Parallels or Xen. That's one of the few ways where you could get OpenVMS applications involved within one of these software stacks -- this for VAX stuff, and emulation. (When last investigated, there were fewer options for Itanium -- the central option was HP-VM on HP-UX, and that seemingly hadn't been fully vetted for use with OpenVMS I64. Xen didn't have support for the four OpenVMS modes, though that may well have changed.) Xen and Parallels and similar virtualizing tools are at the core of the classic server consolidation scheme, as well as how you can manage and upgrade and patch and maintain multiple operating systems, and operating system instances. The next wave after the current server hardware and power and mixed-environment software consolidation will almost certainly involve getting rid of many of these operating systems and applications; it'll target consolidation of the software stacks. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:08:34 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: About the DR/Fiona issue... Some further investigations shows that... *last* time I visitied HP.COM I probaby was at the "Large Enterprice Business" tab. When I then return to HP.COM, the same tab i "open" and the Fiona image turns into the DR image in a few secons. So far so good... I've also noticed that if one just "mouse over" the 5 different tabs, the DR image is replaced with another image, one for each tab. The Fiona image belongs to the "Home..." tab, b.t.w. If the "Home..." tab was the "active" tab *last* time you where there, the image never changes into the DR image !! Now, if one *clicks* on a tab the screen changes all over... You obviously must have been on the "Large..." tab the last time to have it behive like I described first... Overworked is my impression... Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:27:25 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <871de$468c10e9$cef8887a$3804@TEKSAVVY.COM> Keith Parris wrote: > As has been pointed out here before, HP said within days of the > acquisition announcement that it was carrying forward Compaq's plans to > port OpenVMS to Itanium. Unfortunately, that public statement was made > to a group of mostly-UNIX folks and the message didn't get out well to > the VMS base. That is interesting. Why didn't HP announce this to the VMS crowd ? Also, how come we were repeatedly told by now-HP employees that HP/Compaq were legally not allowed to discuss VMS plans in public until the merger was completed ? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:43:56 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: OpenVMS - When downtime is not an option Message-ID: <39qdnSc41MVyvxHbnZ2dnUVZ_ompnZ2d@metrocastcablevision.com> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Bill Todd writes: >> Main, Kerry wrote: >> >> .... >> >>> If the design and/or architecture of the OS platform allows an >>> application bug to provide access to protected data and/or provides >>> elevated rights on the system, does sit matter if it is an application >>> or kernel OS issue? >> Clearly, that would be an OS bug (or at least a serious design flaw, if >> indeed it were intentional rather than inadvertent) - *if* it had been >> the case in this instance. >> >> It was not: the bugs *only* affected Exchange Server. If Exchange >> Server was designed such that it had to execute in a privileged >> environment (such that once compromised itself it could compromise other >> parts of the system as you describe above), rather than designed >> modularly such that at most a few critical parts of it might require >> privilege (certainly not including the parsing functions that these bugs >> affected) and the rest could run unprivileged, that was an *Exchange >> Server* design flaw, not a Windows flaw. >> > > What is this "IF" ? As I'm starting to get tired of saying, *exactly* what it seems to be. > > From http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/ms07-026.mspx > > > "An attacker who successfully exploited this vulnerability could take > complete control of the affected system. An attacker could then install > programs; view, change or delete data; or create new accounts with full user > rights" > > Obviously this means that the codepath executed by the bug must run at a high > privilege level. Obviously you're not very familiar with Microsoft's exposure descriptions. Microsoft *always* uses this phrase (which if you read it more carefully says 'could', not 'can') whenever it *may* be possible that the execution environment is privileged, very frequently following it (as indeed it does in this case) with the clarification that what *really* happens is that the attacker gains the privilege of the applicable execution environment, whatever that privilege level may be. Whether that is because Exchange is running with higher > privileges than it really needs because of bad design and implementation or > whether it is doing something which requires it to have high privileges at that > point in time is not something easily judged without access to the design > documents and/or source of Exchange. Are you seriously suggesting that parsing the contents of email requires privilege? Sheesh! > > If as you seem to believe it is bad design and implementation in Exchange > causing it to run at higher privileges than needed then it is down to those > designing and programming Exchange at Microsoft. However Exchange is a > Microsoft product and those same designers and programmers have probably also > worked on the OS code during their careers and have had their code reviewed > by the same quality control people. Now you're getting outright ridiculous: guilt by association, rather than guilt by evidence. You're usually one of the more competent contributors here - it would be nice to see your observations return to that level. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:50:44 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Question for the Group Message-ID: <468c243e$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> David J Dachtera wrote: > I've been carrying on an exchange by private e-mail where it was suggested that > the negativity expressed in this forum is greatly damaging to VMS. > > So, I'd like to solicit your comments on that, and also pose a question where > you can, effectively, wish for "the world": in your opinion, what would have to > happen to stem what is viewed as an endless stream of complaints and vitriol > here in comp.os.vms? I am a bit late in this discussion ... I can not see the problem. The views expressed here are the views expressed out in the real world. If HP solves the problem in the real world the problem would automatically disappear. But they should not expect usenet to be part of their marketing. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:55:49 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) list!) Message-ID: <468c2570$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> AEF wrote: > OK, here's the link: > > http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/customgo.asp?find=P38_FEATURE&id=18488&pageid=29&country=United+States > > Apologies if it wraps badly. > > OK, here's my question: Is this good or bad as regards VMS? I think that the truth is that VMS was not even evaluated to be on the list or not. So neither good or bad. VMS could have been on that list 10-15 years ago. And that would have been bad. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 18:59:54 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Top ten dead or dying computer skills (guess what's NOT on the list!) list!) Message-ID: <468c2665$0$90273$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Thank you. I needed a good laugh and this was definitely it. Number 1 > was COBOL. Anyone looked at the COBOL job market lately? A lot more > COBOL jobs out there than VMS. Sadly, they are mostly IBM/CICS and I > haven't touched an IBM box in nearly 30 years. Of course, there are > some non-IBM COBOL jobs too but they are harder to find. > > Actually, I just had this discussion here when the last Professor to > use COBOL in a course was pressured into changing it to Java. I gave > him a bunch of articles from the web citing the continued use (and > even hinting at growth) of COBOL programs. Much of it is hidden > between Java Web Frontends and Oracle Backends, but stuck right there > in the middle COBOL is still going strong. There are a lot of COBOL code out there. But I do not think I would consider it a smart move to be ones career on COBOL skills. Well - depends a bit on ones age I guess. > Number 6 was C. Yeah, with Linux and Solaris and AIX and HPUX we're > really gonna see C go away!! C will live for many many years to come. But a lot of all the new stuff are done in C++, Java, C#, Python, PHP etc.. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:33:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: <22192$468c1244$cef8887a$3804@TEKSAVVY.COM> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > so, JFool did not properly configure the POP server ... If using default configs that leave some DEC products in a "bad" state is acceptable because you can customize them apparently to become secure, then the same should apply when rating Windows. You shouldn't rate the security level of the windows that is mass deployed, you should rate only those installations that have customised it to make it secure. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 22:00:12 -0000 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Updated TCO study has OpenVMS AGAIN over AIX, Slowaris Message-ID: <1183586412.348306.100270@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Jul 4, 12:35 pm, Andrew wrote: > Solaris 10 is both more secure than > Solaris 8 and more resilient/reliable so years after your arguments about security/reliability between OpenVMS and slowaris, you now admit that slowaris is/was unsecure and less reliable ... well Andrew old boy, you can come out with slowaris 50 and it still not be as reliable and secure as vms ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:37:32 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Message-ID: <9231$468c1349$cef8887a$3804@TEKSAVVY.COM> rtk wrote: >> $ set file/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:32256) hack.bck > > That worked perfectly! Thanks! or you could try the officially undocumented buyt implemented by Guy Peleg: $BACKUP/LIST/REPAIR hack.bck/save ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:21:45 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Message-ID: <468c2b83$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > rtk wrote: >>> $ set file/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:32256) hack.bck >> >> That worked perfectly! Thanks! > > or you could try the officially undocumented buyt implemented by Guy Peleg: > > $BACKUP/LIST/REPAIR hack.bck/save From what VMS version ? Arne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:47:02 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> $BACKUP/LIST/REPAIR hack.bck/save > > From what VMS version ? Either 8.2 o 8.3 Definitely 8.3 because it works on my system (had to use it a couple of times). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 20:06:54 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Using the game file on OpenVMS Hobbyist page Message-ID: Arne Vajhøj wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: >> rtk wrote: >>>> $ set file/attr=(rfm:fix,lrl:32256) hack.bck >>> >>> That worked perfectly! Thanks! >> >> or you could try the officially undocumented buyt implemented by Guy >> Peleg: >> >> $BACKUP/LIST/REPAIR hack.bck/save > > From what VMS version ? To provide the literal answer (not sure if that was a question or a comment), BACKUP/REPAIR is part of V8.3. Prior to that release, the SET FILE/ATTRIBUTE command (and potentially one of various different LRL values) or the RESET_BACKUP_SAVESET_FILE_ATTRIBUTES.COM discussed in the OpenVMS FAQ and available on the OpenVMS Freeware. If this involved unzip on another platform, that can trigger this as the unzipped file doesn't maintain the OpenVMS file attributes expected by BACKUP -- this is one of the central reasons why folks use zip "-V" and a zip archive; to protect these attributes. If unzipping files on another platform and transferring the file over to OpenVMS, do grab unzip from the Freeware and unzip directly on OpenVMS. (The OpenVMS unzip knows how to process the "-V" option from zip and to preserve the file options. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 15:04:48 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: VISTA Migrating to OpenVMS Integrity Message-ID: Smile for the day .. could not resist this subject title .. :-) http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm "Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed, restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced." [..see rest of article] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:11:22 -0700 From: dclhacker@gmail.com Subject: Re: VMS security vulnerability (POP server) Message-ID: <1183572682.823330.251210@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 2, 12:10 am, John Santos wrote: > Plain vanilla POP3 isn't very secure since the usernames and passwords are > transmitted in plain text. There is an alternate APOP authorization method > that uses shared secrets instead. I haven't tried setting this up. APOP works well in TCP/IP Services and setup is trivial. The username is still passed in the clear, but the password is not. Setup can be summarized as: 1. Create a POP_SECRET.DAT file with your passphrase in your VMSmail directory (secure it so that only the owner has access). 2. If necessary, tell your client that you're going to use APOP. Full details for the server side can be found in the following section of the TCP/IP Services User's Manual: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/732FINAL/6525/6525pro_016.html#heading_5.12.1 In the case of Thunderbird, you don't have to do anything extra -- when you connect, it asks for your password: simply provide your passphrase. You would still be able to use this thread's described attack vector to identify user accounts, but it removes the ability to sniff passwords on the wire, as only an MD5 hash of the passphrase is sent. Aaron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 21:11:40 -0700 From: "tomarsin2015@comcast.net" Subject: What happen to the Deathrow cluster Message-ID: <1183608700.159244.49960@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> I tried to connect, but I get a page not available or no route to host? So if the Deathrow cluster is no more, that brings up a question or two> 1. What are the pro/cons or offering free VMS accounts? 2. Can you mix hobby license/with "real VMS licenses" ie WPS/ OfficeServer/and yes even PL/1 3. Is there even a need for free VMS accounts with so many VAX/Alpha flooding the market (ebay, come get the Alpha/VAX or its trash etc) tks phil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:39:41 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: What happen to the Deathrow cluster Message-ID: Hi Phil Last I heard it was a CPU fan, but it does seem to be taking some time. (Having said I personally am yet to donate money, hardware, or time to the cause so I'm certainly not gonna start whinging just yet :-) Cheers Richard Maher wrote in message news:1183608700.159244.49960@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... > I tried to connect, but I get a page not available or no route to > host? So if the Deathrow cluster is no more, that brings up a question > or two> > 1. What are the pro/cons or offering free VMS accounts? > 2. Can you mix hobby license/with "real VMS licenses" ie WPS/ > OfficeServer/and yes even PL/1 > 3. Is there even a need for free VMS accounts with so many VAX/Alpha > flooding the market (ebay, come get the Alpha/VAX or its trash etc) > tks > phil > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:01:19 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: <1183572079.773836.186200@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jul 4, 11:32 am, ChrisSharman wrote: > I've got an old application which accepts orders via tagged text input > files. > Something like: > > _order_1001 > _product_ab10 > _quantity_30 > _ink_Black > _name_Mr Jones > etc... > > I've looked at updating it to handle xml a number of times, but I've > looked at the available parsers in the past (expat etc), and got > nowhere. > Any advice for getting started with xml on vms? > I don't want to reinvent the wheel, and I ideally don't want to impose > non-standard rules on my xml input. Nor do I want this to turn into a > big project. > The original program is written in VMS Pascal. I'm competent in C, too, > but I'd prefer to keep the majority of the Pascal code intact. > > Don't have a Java or C++ compiler. > > Thanks > Chris > > -- > ChrisSharman > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ChrisSharman's Profile:http://techiegroups.com/member.php?userid=5732 > View this thread:http://www.techiegroups.com/showthread.php?t=134882 Chris, Have you looked at the XML tools available for OpenVMS on the OpenVMS www site at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/products/ips/xml/ ? These tools are available in both C++ and Java, but providing PASCAL bindings should not be a major project. My personal preference would be to package them as an external shareable library invokable from PASCAL. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:19:25 -0500 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: In article , ChrisSharman wrote: > I've got an old application which accepts orders via tagged text input > files. > Something like: > > _order_1001 > _product_ab10 > _quantity_30 > _ink_Black > _name_Mr Jones > etc... > > I've looked at updating it to handle xml a number of times, but I've > looked at the available parsers in the past (expat etc), and got > nowhere. Understanding why you got nowhere with a reliable, well-known tool might be a first step before anyone can offer you advice that would be acceptable to you. > Any advice for getting started with xml on vms? How did you get started with Pascal on VMS? I suspect you invested some time learning it, maybe took a class, read a book, and/or looked over the shoulder of a more experienced colleague. I recommend doing the same with XML. One of the O'Reilly books would be a good start, though there are lots of others. > I don't want to reinvent the wheel, and I ideally don't want to impose > non-standard rules on my xml input. One of the nice things about XML is you can define your own standard for your own data or documents. > Nor do I want this to turn into a big project. Starting small makes sense, but your first XML project, just like your first project with anything new and significant, will likely take some effort. > The original program is written in VMS Pascal. I'm competent in C, too, > but I'd prefer to keep the majority of the Pascal code intact. Don't overlook using a preprocessing step, perhaps using an XSLT processor (eXtensible Stylesheet Language Transformation). You could have it convert 1001 into the _order_1001 your application already knows how to process. Or you could simply write a script or program that does that without using XSLT. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:48:57 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: XML for VMS Message-ID: ChrisSharman wrote: > I've got an old application which accepts orders via tagged text input > files. ... > Any advice for getting started with xml on vms? http://64.223.189.234/node/400 -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.363 ************************