INFO-VAX Sun, 17 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 328 Contents: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: DECwindows Newbie Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: How will VMS be killed ? Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Re: PLUG: PMAS Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget Re: Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget SMTP oddity, double headers Re: Thanks for the Help Robert ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:05:25 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: In article <5dj053F34721fU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article > , > "Main, Kerry" writes: > >> > > > > Bottom line question is whether it is easier to train the old employee > > with new technologies and keep that invaluable experience, > > The only problem with that is unless you have contracts like EDS you > have no guarantee that the training you provide won't result in the > the employee moving to someone who is in aposition to offer higher > pay because they didn't have the expense of educating the employee. > Employees today seldom consider things like loyalty and usually just > go to the highest bidder. > What is special about "contracts like EDS"? Are those the sort where the employee may have to pay back training costs if leaving? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:49:42 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 16, 2007 3:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > On 06/16/07 11:18, Main, Kerry wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- From: John Smith > >> [mailto:a@nonymous.com] Sent: June 13, 2007 1:07 PM To: > [snip] > > > >> So how about this -- since you've had experience with many of > >> these situations, --create a no-names list you can post here > >> with the following attributes: > >> > > > > So you assume there is some master list or DB somewhere in the > > universe that lists this and that I have access to this? >=20 > Microsoft does, as part of their battle against Linux. >=20 Ever try to see that list of Microsoft to Linux conversions? Is it real or is it perceived or is it marketing? > > [snip..] > > > > As I mentioned before, part of the problem is that experienced > > Techies and managers are to afraid to speak up and use their > > experience to ask a few simple questions about changing. They are > > to afraid they might get labelled with the dino label. >=20 > I tried, about 8-9 years ago. Suggested that a new business project > be written in the best business language: COBOL. Was ignored, of > course. >=20 Its all in how it is presented.=20 Cobol likely is the most portable code on the planet. What platform does not have a Cobol compiler and how many issues does one run into when switching platforms? Very few .. In the end, it is a $'s issue, but stability, adaptability to interfacing with existing app's are big considerations as well. If you propose something like Cobol today, then you need to highlight how Cobol stds are evolving to better integrate with other technologies e.g. web interfaces, transferring data between applications etc. If someone else is presenting entirely new technology, what risks are they considering? Fwiw, my $.02 is that likely one of the most in demand (but may not be advertised) skills today are Cobol resources who understand web enabling and data integration with other technologies J2EE, .Net etc. > The project has been a memory- & CPU-hogging doesn't-work-well- > with-VMS pain in the arse ever since then. >=20 Although developers may want to blame it as a way of deflecting their own failure, I rather suspect the platform decision has little to with the end result of this application. Focus should be on the App and how it was designed and/or implemented.=20 The same App design on any other platform would likely result in similar results. Seen one major application dev project in the Govt ($40M original, now greater than $150M and 3 years late) here finally start to fall to pieces. The Dev group has been blaming Operations (they are not responding quick enough or supporting us), Mgmt (if we only had more $'s), the platform (OpenVMS), the DB (Oracle bugs) and so on and so on . Bottom line is that I know if someone were to review the CV's of the lead App/EA folks involved, they would find precious little experience in delivering any previous major app roll-out. [Hint - technology is only a small part of the equation.] Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 12:55:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <5dkp9sF350el9U1@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5dj053F34721fU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article >> , >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> >> > >> > Bottom line question is whether it is easier to train the old employee >> > with new technologies and keep that invaluable experience, >> >> The only problem with that is unless you have contracts like EDS you >> have no guarantee that the training you provide won't result in the >> the employee moving to someone who is in aposition to offer higher >> pay because they didn't have the expense of educating the employee. >> Employees today seldom consider things like loyalty and usually just >> go to the highest bidder. >> > > What is special about "contracts like EDS"? Are those the sort where the > employee may have to pay back training costs if leaving? It's not "may have to"!! Of all the major computer companies in the industry, EDS is the only one I have and would never consider working for. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:19:37 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <467542F9.F69D045D@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > What risk is imposed by what the newbie doesn't know about the existing (I > > almost said "legacy") systems? > > That is not it. > > At interview: > > Newbie: "Sure, I can set tha up in 25 minutes." > > Experienced guy: "I will need to sit down and plan this to ensure no > mistakes are made and that this architecture can grow/scale and be reliable. > > This often choose the newbie because he can deliver faster. And they > don't understand the need to properly architect a system. When is > important to them is to have it up and running ASAP. And problems that > crop up later on due to poro planning anc architecting of the system are > irrelevant. There was a poster making the rounds a while back: +----------------------+ | There's never enough | | in the budget to do | | it right the first | | time, but there's | | always plenty of | | resources available | | to do it over and | | over and ... | +----------------------+ -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:26:39 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: On 06/17/07 06:49, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: June 16, 2007 3:23 PM [snip] >>>> >>> So you assume there is some master list or DB somewhere in the >>> universe that lists this and that I have access to this? >> Microsoft does, as part of their battle against Linux. >> > > Ever try to see that list of Microsoft to Linux conversions? > > Is it real or is it perceived or is it marketing? They've got a customer testimonial web site, that, among others, has a list of Windows->Linux->Windows conversions. Any good marketing company will tracks such information. >>> [snip..] >>> >>> As I mentioned before, part of the problem is that experienced >>> Techies and managers are to afraid to speak up and use their >>> experience to ask a few simple questions about changing. They are >>> to afraid they might get labelled with the dino label. >> I tried, about 8-9 years ago. Suggested that a new business project >> be written in the best business language: COBOL. Was ignored, of >> course. >> > > Its all in how it is presented. > > Cobol likely is the most portable code on the planet. What platform does > not have a Cobol compiler and how many issues does one run into when > switching platforms? Very few .. > > In the end, it is a $'s issue, but stability, adaptability to No, it was a "we don't want to program in COBOL, and (valid or not) it's too hard to find COBOL programmers" issue. [snip] >> The project has been a memory- & CPU-hogging doesn't-work-well- >> with-VMS pain in the arse ever since then. >> > > Although developers may want to blame it as a way of deflecting their > own failure, I rather suspect the platform decision has little to with > the end result of this application. Focus should be on the App and how > it was designed and/or implemented. > > The same App design on any other platform would likely result in similar > results. > > Seen one major application dev project in the Govt ($40M original, now > greater than $150M and 3 years late) here finally start to fall to > pieces. The Dev group has been blaming Operations (they are not > responding quick enough or supporting us), Mgmt (if we only had more > $'s), the platform (OpenVMS), the DB (Oracle bugs) and so on and so on > . > > Bottom line is that I know if someone were to review the CV's of the > lead App/EA folks involved, they would find precious little experience > in delivering any previous major app roll-out. [Hint - technology is > only a small part of the equation.] The same people had implemented a similar application using DECforms and DEC C rather successfully. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:29:33 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <4675454d$0$25474$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 17-6-2007 14:55 Bill Gunshannon wrote... [snip] > It's not "may have to"!! Of all the major computer companies in the > industry, EDS is the only one I have and would never consider working > for. There is an explicit "I'd never consider working for EDS" here -to which I happen to agree-, but there is also an implicit "Employers should never issue contracts that cause employees to pay a refund for education fees when they leave". Please elaborate why this is such a horrible concept. Wilm [who has worked more than once under such contracts, and always the refund due to the "old" employer was in fact paid by the "new" employer, albeit never directly, but by way of my bank account] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:16:22 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46755046.8FA71B96@spam.comcast.net> Wilm Boerhout wrote: > > on 17-6-2007 14:55 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > [snip] > > It's not "may have to"!! Of all the major computer companies in the > > industry, EDS is the only one I have and would never consider working > > for. > > There is an explicit "I'd never consider working for EDS" here -to which > I happen to agree-, but there is also an implicit "Employers should > never issue contracts that cause employees to pay a refund for education > fees when they leave". Please elaborate why this is such a horrible concept. > > Wilm > > [who has worked more than once under such contracts, and always the > refund due to the "old" employer was in fact paid by the "new" employer, > albeit never directly, but by way of my bank account] When you buy a machine, and upgrade it over time, does the hardware vendor reimburse you for upgrades when you replace it? There's no "easy" answer due to the various paradigms of "entitlement" involved here, but my personal feeling is that the employer "gambles" on their people a bit by offering to expand their professional proficiencies without also fostering loyalty and cooperation. My $0.02... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:09:08 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: In article <4675454d$0$25474$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > on 17-6-2007 14:55 Bill Gunshannon wrote... > [snip] > > It's not "may have to"!! Of all the major computer companies in the > > industry, EDS is the only one I have and would never consider working > > for. > > There is an explicit "I'd never consider working for EDS" here -to which > I happen to agree-, but there is also an implicit "Employers should > never issue contracts that cause employees to pay a refund for education > fees when they leave". Please elaborate why this is such a horrible concept. > > Wilm > > [who has worked more than once under such contracts, and always the > refund due to the "old" employer was in fact paid by the "new" employer, > albeit never directly, but by way of my bank account] I've seen another side to that. I once worked in a third world country where the guys I was training had to work x years for their (state) employer to be released from having to pay back their university education (usually in the UK). Net result - as soon as I had got someone trained up to take a position of responsibility, they'd be snapped up by an international accountancy firm who would pay their education and give them a very healthy pay rise to boot. It was incredibly frustrating. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:24:05 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46756025$0$25475$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 17-6-2007 17:16 David J Dachtera wrote... [snip] > When you buy a machine, and upgrade it over time, does the hardware vendor > reimburse you for upgrades when you replace it? No. Likewise, when I buy a house, and upgrade it over time, I never get as much money out as I put in an upgrade. However, I'm not a machine or a house. > There's no "easy" answer due to the various paradigms of "entitlement" involved > here, but my personal feeling is that the employer "gambles" on their people a > bit by offering to expand their professional proficiencies without also > fostering loyalty and cooperation. I can choose to invest in (pay for) a training course (and then I'm like the machine or the house) I may or may not up my market value. My decision. I can also find an employer to pay for the training. Then it's her decision, and she may want a return on that investment, and amortize the training fee over let's say 36 months. If such a clause were (was?) included in the contract (the employment contract, not the specific training contract) then I could decide to sign the contract. I would, I mean I did. Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:06:10 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: DECwindows Newbie Message-ID: <46754DE2.7A011250@spam.comcast.net> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > 20 years ago I used to use VAXen that did not have DECwindows, but now that > I have a VAXstation at home with a hobbyist license I would like to try it. > I do not have a monitor for the VAXstation so I must use my Windows XP PC. I > have installed Cygwin/X and I have XDM running on the VAX. I can connect to > the VAX using the command XWin -ac -query . This gives me a > login prompt, after I login I get a Session Manager window with four menu > options (Session, Application, Options and Help), but nothing resembling any > sort of "desktop". > > First of all, is that what I should see? > > Second, if I click an application such as Clock on the Applications menu, it > takes me back to a login prompt. Why might this be? > > I have searched the web for a simple step-by-step guide to setting up a > scenario like mine, but I have not found anything. Can anyone give me a good > pointer? What we know as "Common Desktop Environment" (CDE) was never ported to VAX. The reason? Your guess is as good as theirs... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:33:55 +0200 From: Marc Van Dyck Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: JF Mezei submitted this idea : > Any thoughts on how HP will handle VMS' retirement ? > > if IA64 is cancelled, then VMS would probably be handled the same way as > True64. Not ported to the 8086 and HP would complete the next version of the > OS and then put it in maintenance mode for 5 years. > > When you consider those still on VAX at 5.5-2, those would probably remain on > it for some time to come. But others are rely on 3rd party products like > Oracle would likely be on some migration to IBM/Sun/Dell in a fairly rapid > mode (less than 5 years). > > Whether Bruden survives as a VMS outfit or not, I do not know, but they might > become the logical support resoiurce for the remaining VMS customer base. (A > bit like Parsec with the PDP11 software). > > I think that VMS would fairly quickly become defunct, perhaps similarly to > OS2, with some die hard fans remaining. > > VMS skills would instantly become as worthless as DG's AOS-VS skills. But a > few might get lucky if the remaining VMS shops get desperate to find anyone > with VMS knowledge and willing to work on VMS (aka: legacy worthless skills). > > > Would HP kill VMS before IA64 in the hopes of getting customers to move to > HP-UX ? (and when IA64 is killed, HP-US might have enough customers to > pwarrant a port to the 8086). > > > Perhaps one way to cause HP to think twice about killing VMS would be if the > user community was VERY organised (back to a single DECUS name for starters) > and made serious (but quiet/private) threaths that should HP pull the plug on > VMS, the community would mount a very public bopycott HP campaign and show HP > as a company you cannot trust your business to and should avoid. > > > Really, when you think about it, of someone like Stallard/Livermore at HP > can, at their whim, ruin your own personal carreer and make you worthless in > society by zapping your skills, what have you got to loose by trying to stain > HP as much as you can ? Didn't H.P. (or Compaq, I don't remenber) sign an agreement with the U.S. D.O.D. stipulating that they would maintain OpenVMS alive for 15 years or so ? -- Marc Van Dyck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:09:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: On 06/17/07 07:33, Marc Van Dyck wrote: [snip] > > Didn't H.P. (or Compaq, I don't remenber) sign an agreement with the > U.S. D.O.D. stipulating that they would maintain OpenVMS alive for > 15 years or so ? But that was back in the late 1990s. The clock is ticking. And it probably only has to maintain OpenVMS for the DoD, not the whole world. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:00:23 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <46754C87.8FD7D70C@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Any thoughts on how HP will handle VMS' retirement ? > [snip] Slow attrition, very likely. VMS has some long-term contracts that will keep it out of sight with certain very exclusive exceptions, and eventually, it's niche will become limited to that audience. > [snip] > I think that VMS would fairly quickly become defunct, perhaps similarly > to OS2, with some die hard fans remaining. The OS/2 analogy is likely very fitting. > [snip] > Would HP kill VMS before IA64 in the hopes of getting customers to move > to HP-UX ? (and when IA64 is killed, HP-US might have enough customers > to pwarrant a port to the 8086). HP has already demonstrated that it will not hesitate to, as you put it, "kill VMS before IA64 in the hopes of getting customers to move to HP-UX" since that is indeed what they are currently doing as we have seen for ourselves in the healthcare and financial sectors. However, my feeling is that "trying to stain HP as much as you can" consitutues continuing to exercise a failed strategy and somehow expecting the results to change. It has had no effect so far. Risking possible accusations of libel and/or slander would be inadvisable, in my estimation. As a user community, about the only leverage we might have would be if we could somehow get our corporate management on board with the cause and recruit them to "carry the torch", and possibly even a picthfork, quite literally. For example, had I been an Exec. at Cerner when HP arrived to talk about I64, I'd have first asked, "How many of you work in or with the OpenVMS organization at HP?". The answer would likely have been zero, at which point I'd have ejected them, expressing this: "Our focus here is our OpenVMS installed base. Go back to your office and reschedule with your OpenVMS people for another meeting with us, and we'll talk at that time. Good day, ladies and gentlemen.", and then had security escort them to the door. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:00:13 +0200 From: Michael Kraemer Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: Marc Van Dyck schrieb: > > Didn't H.P. (or Compaq, I don't remenber) sign an agreement with the > U.S. D.O.D. stipulating that they would maintain OpenVMS alive for > 15 years or so ? depends what "alive" means in this context. They could withdraw it from market or stop development and keep 3 support engineers just to serve the contract with the military. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:03:00 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <46754D24.E6C7555E@spam.comcast.net> Brad Hamilton wrote: > > In article <6c02b$4674511e$cef8887a$5935@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: > >Any thoughts on how HP will handle VMS' retirement ? > > Are you privy to some information unavailable to the rest of us? Perhaps Bob > has talked to God recently, gotten the straight poop, and passed it on to you. > :-) Even God has likely migrated away from VMS, in retribution for all the lies and lost opportunities, lost profits, lost careers, etc. After all, "Vengeance is mine, saith The Lord!" ;-) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:33:14 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: My prediction is that if VMS has to listen to much more of the crap in COV then it's simply gonna walk of the nearest tall building all by itself. Regards Richard Maher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:55:42 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: <4675678e$0$25482$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 17-6-2007 1:33 Richard Maher wrote... > My prediction is that if VMS has to listen to much more of the crap in COV > then it's simply gonna walk of the nearest tall building all by itself. and in an ultimate leap of good will, it'll take Windows with it... LOL! /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:18:26 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: How will VMS be killed ? Message-ID: In article <4675678e$0$25482$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > on 17-6-2007 1:33 Richard Maher wrote... > > My prediction is that if VMS has to listen to much more of the crap in COV > > then it's simply gonna walk of the nearest tall building all by itself. > > and in an ultimate leap of good will, it'll take Windows with it... > > LOL! > Now that is tempting! -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:47:28 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Message-ID: In article <1182036513.176055.141500@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Charlie writes: > > >On Jun 16, 6:39 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1182029850.581512.324...@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Charlie writes: >> >> >> >> >Does anyone know of any links for these manuals? >> >> >chg >> >> What version exactly? I could put them up for you. >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > >uhhhh 4.0 :) that's what comes back from show version..... http://www.tmesis.com/UCX The crux of the documentation is in BookReader format. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 07:04:04 -0700 From: Charlie Subject: Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Message-ID: <1182089044.395469.71590@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> > The crux of the documentation is in BookReader format. > > -- any chance that someone can point me to bnu for windows? What I've read is that I need to order a doc cd to get it, which seems a bit silly. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:08:59 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Message-ID: <%fbdi.11$In3.4@newsfe12.lga> In article <1182089044.395469.71590@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Charlie writes: > > > >> The crux of the documentation is in BookReader format. >> >> -- > >any chance that someone can point me to bnu for windows? What I've >read is that I need to order a doc cd to get it, which seems a bit >silly. What 'exactly' do you want to read up on about UCX? You may be able to just read the current TCPIP Services documentation to gleen what- ever you need. While is has many NEW features, it's still very much like UCX (in fact, you can still use the command UCX in lieu of the TCPIP command). -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 10:31:21 -0500 From: burley.not-this@encompasserve-or-this.org (Graham Burley) Subject: Re: Old UCX 4.0 manuals on line anywhere? Message-ID: In article <1182089044.395469.71590@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Charlie writes: > >> The crux of the documentation is in BookReader format. > > any chance that someone can point me to bnu for windows? What I've > read is that I need to order a doc cd to get it, which seems a bit > silly. > I copied those to Deathrow, you can view courtesy of HyperReader at: http://www.openvms-rocks.com/docs/network/ucx41/dy9mzaa3.odl Looks like 4.1 docs, but the majority (e.g. Management) are 4.0. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:31:28 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: In article <1182034008.108178.279090@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, rtk writes: > On Jun 16, 12:45 pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- > remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > > If that doesn't work, try > > > > $ LICENSE LOAD > > > > from the DCL prompt. :) > > That did the trick! It is normally executed at startup, so normally you never have to execute the command, except after registering a license you need to use before the next boot. Also, if you move the license database off of the system disk (something I recommend, along with SYSUAF etc) and define a logical to point to it, you need a $ LICENSE LOAD after the definition in your startup. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:38:10 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: <46754752.84337C72@spam.comcast.net> rtk wrote: > > Questions: > > Why won't it let me logon? Thanx for posting your experiences, rtk! There was once a "newbie" guide posted somewhere in the OpenVMS Hobbyist world. I'll see if I can find it. Your questions are quite valuable. Since these come up so often, I'm thinking of using your experience to build an OpenVMS Hobbyist Beginner's FAQ to cover these items. As others have pointed out, this whole licensing thing is a bit foreign to folks who only know M$, Linux, *BSD, etc. It's also more than a little confusing that the base o.s. license and "layered product" licenses are provided separately. I've always thought that there should be a radio button or similar on the base license page at http://www.openvmshobbyist.org/ to select whether the layered products PAKs should also be provided when the base o.s. license is requested. The multi-archtitecture makes that one a bit hairy. Yes, the base o.s. license is separate from the GUI license (never made sense to me either, but that's the Corporate America thing). Then, compilers and other things are also licensed separately. > How do I get to the console (ie, non-DECwindows) logon to fix this > without re-installing everything? Well, remember, this is not Micro$lop WhineBloze. You don't "fix" things by re-installing or rebooting, except in certain well-known cases (processes hung in RWAST, for example). > As background, I used VMSes twenty years ago when in grad school and > haven't touched one since and remember very little. If anyone knows > of "An Idiot's Guide to OpenVMS" I'd appreciate hearing about it. Again, I'm thinking of using your experience to build an OpenVMS Hobbyist Beginner's FAQ to cover such questions. Perhaps over the course of the summer, if time permits. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:54:02 -0700 From: rtk Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license woes Message-ID: <1182102842.805816.109710@q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com> On Jun 17, 8:38 am, David J Dachtera wrote: > Again, I'm thinking of using your experience to build an OpenVMS Hobbyist > Beginner's FAQ to cover such questions. Perhaps over the course of the summer, > if time permits. This would be wonderful. I think I'm almost there but have to struggle with little things: 1. TCP/IP doesn't run automatically on boot, I have to run TCPIP $CONFIG.COM and manually start it. I think I should be able to add something to the STARTUP.COM file to run it but I'm not sure what to add. 2. I added a new user per instructions above, got no error messages, but it won't let me logon as that user. I seriously doubt that I need to restart the machine or anything like that to get a new user recognized. I haven't really looked into it much yet, just a comment. 3. What's the proper magic to get the CD-ROM mounted again. It is on DKA400: and that's how I booted it to install in the first place. Again, I haven't dug into it yet, it is Father's Day after all. Just some fodder for your FAQ. I'd assume your readers to be people like me who might have been casual VMS users a decade or two ago and now have come across old hardware that they are trying to resurrect and who don't need to ask such silly questions about other operating systems ;) Another thing for your FAQ: a guide to essential manuals. I have about 30-40 OpenVMS manuals and about 15-20 VAX VMS manuals in my garage, for example, but it is hard to tell where to start (I am looking at the OpenVMS User's Guide now). I had to take the manuals if I wanted the machine :) I did configure my router so that telnet/ftp requests are sent to the Alpha while ssh/http requests get sent to my Linux server (good guess, that's my primary os). That's pretty neat as I can get to the Alpha now from anywhere. Should be safe enough, I would think. I recall using a CD.COM file long ago that acted like the DOS cd command. I might have it somewhere, but if it were a common thing might anyone here still have it? And, where would be the best place to put these things so that they can be used from anywhere? Is there a repository of cool/useful DCL files online anywhere? Now that FTP is working I can load all the licenses at once. I assume there will be no trouble if I reload a license for something already licensed or if I register licenses for things that are not installed yet. > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Pagehttp://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ Gotta check these out! Ron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:05:55 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <1378kfui13fk00@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article , > > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) > > writes: > > > >>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel > >> writes: > >> > >> > >>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). > >>> > >>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I just > >>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search for > >>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while > >>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the > >>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". > >>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 days! > >>> This is something like 328 per day!! > >> > >>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as an > >>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. > > I've just started using that zen.spamhaus.org as well, and the spam on my VMS system has dropped significantly as a result. > > So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start > > looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical > > solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or > > the load it puts on the system? > > > > bill > > Isn't this a little like suggesting a social solution to the problem of > crime :-) I'd guess that as long as there is profit to be made there > will be such activities. > > I have a telephone answering machine primarily to screen tele-marketers. > Best AU$50 I ever spent. But the marketers will continue to call as > long as people respond to those calls (with interest, dollars, etc.) > Those who wish to speak to me leave a message (or I pick-up). Not had a > single message from a marketer or charity asking me to call them back. FWIW, I've discontinued my land line and survive with a cell phone at the moment. That's obviously not an option for everyone, but it's been effective for me. My snail-mail box is now under attack, but that's still nowhere near as bad as it was in the UK a decade ago. > The solution surely will be technological, perhaps digital signatures > and associated PKI, to reduce the effectiveness of general SPAMing thus > reserving the activity for specialised crime rather than the general > mugging we all endure now. My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails as well :-( About 18 months ago they implemented SMTP authentication, but I don't think they were enforcing it for quite a while. The latest development is that the appear to be enforcing the use of my registered address in the From: field. Until recently, I could happily cc a news group posting via email using the munged .nospam sending address you see above, but now that fails unless I use my real address (a bit more research needed here to confirm this theory). Not what I want to keep my real address munged for news groups, but a pretty minor inconvenience if it really does stop zombies connected to my ISP from spewing spam. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:09:38 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > In article <1378epeqmed989f@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel > writes: > > > > get everything, but a long address might cut down spam. Here are just > > > > How so? > > For n characters, there are n 1-character usernames, n**2 2-character > usernames etc. With 12 characters, there are n**12 usernames possible. > Even the spammers won't try all of those. Although the examples you gave don't look like it, a lot of the seemingly random user names seen are apparently due to some spambot picking up newsgroups article reference numbers . e.g. the 51geo$a3r$1@ bit from above. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:16:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , JF Mezei wrote: > Mark Daniel wrote: > > This suggests SPAMing not being attempted through the agent 'RCPT > > to:<...>'ing from a dictionary of common local-part strings (which one > > would think would be effort-intensive enough) but permuting strings > > through all possibilities. Surely that would be entirely too expensive > > merely to promote some softgels? > > > Nop. You're not thinking like a spammer/criminal. > > If you cannot sent to annie@aol.com because AOL blocks you, what do you > ? What do you do ? > > You create a message: > > MAIL_FROM: annie@aol.com > RCPT_TO: random_junk@chocolate.com > > And if the receiving SMTP server does not immediatly verify the RCPT_TO > (like VMS used to be, but thankfully fixed since TCPIP Serv. 5.4), then > the receiving server accepts the message and will later send a bounce > message to annie@aol.com. > > She gets to see a non delivery message with some cryptic gibberish > username she probably things is some internal technical term and opens > the attachement which contains the original message to see if it was > something that she has sent. The act of opening that message sends money > to the spammers. A variation on that is that someone technically literate receives an accusation that they are sending out a virus. This makes them mad, so they read the offending email, which of course contains the virus being complained about - oops! Fortunately this technically literate dupe (i.e. me) had the presence of mind to do this on a VMS system :-) -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:22:29 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > And, as things stand now, it > will only get worse because as fast as people come up with supposed anti- > SPAM methods the SPAMers find a way around it. Something as simple as creating a NOSPAM account on my VMS system worked for a few years (my newsgroup posting address was NOSPAM@mydomain), but the B*stids got it in the end. It also confused the heck out of people who had a legitimate reason to send me email. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:02:26 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <1379sd7centj0ee@corp.supernews.com> Arne Vajhøj wrote: > Mark Daniel wrote: > >> And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >> >> Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I just >> opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search >> for it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a >> while (obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >> 2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >> That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 >> days! This is something like 328 per day!! > > > That is not unusual ! So it seems. Being a consumer rather than a manager of mail services seems to insulate one from the hard edge. Without constantly reminding myself of what is happening 'under the hood' I have tended to forget the frustration I felt when receiving <100/day. Without the filtering I might already have given it away completely well before it reached 300! > Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:14:36 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <1379t431jmdp204@corp.supernews.com> P. Sture wrote: > In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > >> And, as things stand now, it >>will only get worse because as fast as people come up with supposed anti- >>SPAM methods the SPAMers find a way around it. > > > Something as simple as creating a NOSPAM account on my VMS system worked > for a few years (my newsgroup posting address was NOSPAM@mydomain), but > the B*stids got it in the end. Let's not beat around the Bush here. No pejorative is too strong for these illegitimate bastards [tautology I know] and in this case our condemnation of choice should not be obfuscated. I'm not an advocate of capital punishment (except in the case of adulterers and those that kindle fires on Shabbat of course) but in the case of SPAMers I might reconsider. It's as if our telephones were ringing every four minutes, twenty-four hours a day. How long should we put up with that? [rhetorical] > It also confused the heck out of people who had a legitimate reason to > send me email. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:48:35 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dj9m5F347nggU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <46745B94.3050108@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article , > >> helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to > >> reply) writes: > >> > >>>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel > >>> writes: > >>> > >>> > >>>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). > >>>> > >>>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I just > >>>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search for > >>>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while > >>>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the > >>>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". > >>>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 days! > >>>> This is something like 328 per day!! > >>> > >>>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as an > >>>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. > >> > >> > >> So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start > >> looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical > >> solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or > >> the load it puts on the system? > >> > > > > Several years ago, I read that fewer than 200 men were responsible for > > 90% of the spam. If this is true, perhaps the solution is to ask the > > Mafia to deal with the problem, pro bono publico! Even if we had to > > take up a collection to pay them, it would be worth it. > > Considering that I get SPAM from more than 200 locations and there are > probably more SPAM businesses than that I think it is a rather dubious > statistic. > > Eh? Think zombies around the world controlled by the few. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:08:55 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dj0ihF34721fU2@mid.individual.net>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start > looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical > solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or > the load it puts on the system? What is your social solution? My social solution is to send email only through trusted relay servers, and only receive mail from the same. As soon as enough people start doing this, then it won't be worth it to the spammers to spam. I think it is more than worth the trouble to pay a small fee to the operator of the trusted server I send mail through in return for him making sure that no spam is sent through it, making sure that my recipients can receive mail from it, i.e. trust it. Brad Templeton has an interesting idea which doesn't involve blocking email from non-trusted addresses: delay it somewhat, enough to make spamming not worth the effort but not enough to hurt legitimate mail: http://ideas.4brad.com/node/510 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:11:32 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <46745B94.3050108@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Several years ago, I read that fewer than 200 men were responsible for > 90% of the spam. If this is true, perhaps the solution is to ask the > Mafia to deal with the problem, pro bono publico! Even if we had to > take up a collection to pay them, it would be worth it. That's still the case. One of the top dogs was recently arrested and jailed before the trial for fear that he would not show up. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:12:45 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dj9m5F347nggU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Considering that I get SPAM from more than 200 locations and there are > probably more SPAM businesses than that I think it is a rather dubious > statistic. They are RESPONSIBLE for it. They don't spam from their own computer, they hijack PCs via viruses. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:14:38 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > So, what is the technological solution? ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of version 5.4). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:22:01 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , "P. Sture" writes: > I've just started using that zen.spamhaus.org as well, and the spam on > my VMS system has dropped significantly as a result. I have the spam-action flag set to OPCOM, and have the VT320 console next to my graphics monitor. Whenever such a mail is rejected, I see the IP address and the fact that it was found in an RBL. (Of course, this is also in the operator log.) > My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the > spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails > as well :-( My dynamic-DNS provider offers the option of routing all incoming mail through him and scanning it with SpamAssassin, where I can set the threshold via a web-based management screen. However, I don't do this, for two reasons. First, the lowest threshold which doesn't reject legitimate stuff lets too much through and b) most spam is spam to invalid users, which he has to accept and pass on to me, since he doesn't know what a valid user at my end is. I can reject mail to invalid users, but rejecting the stuff from him is not really the best thing to do. I now let everything in and drop stuff at my end. Good RBLs coupled with the other anti-spam stuff gets rid of most things. > About 18 months ago they implemented SMTP authentication, but I don't > think they were enforcing it for quite a while. Another good thing aboutu my dynamic-DNS provider http://www.dynaccess.com/ is that there is no SMTP authentication required; it is based on the IP address (which he obviously knows). > The latest development is that the appear to be enforcing the use of my > registered address in the From: field. Until recently, I could happily > cc a news group posting via email using the munged .nospam sending > address you see above, but now that fails unless I use my real address > (a bit more research needed here to confirm this theory). Again, no problem for me, since it is IP-address based. > Not what I want to keep my real address munged for news groups, but a > pretty minor inconvenience if it really does stop zombies connected to > my ISP from spewing spam. I don't think this plays a role anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:23:57 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <1379sd7centj0ee@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel writes: > So it seems. Being a consumer rather than a manager of mail services > seems to insulate one from the hard edge. Without constantly reminding > myself of what is happening 'under the hood' I have tended to forget the > frustration I felt when receiving <100/day. Without the filtering I > might already have given it away completely well before it reached 300! I used to run VMS 7.3-2 on a DEC 3000/300 LX with 48 MB. I think it was the TCPIP activity which finally made that system too slow to be useful. (It's fine for other things, though.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 10:22:14 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >Gunshannon) writes: > >> So, what is the technological solution? > >ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of >version 5.4). > Yes that will stop spam - it will reject everything. zen.spamhouse.org returns 127.0.0.2 for everything - see http://www.spamhouse.org. If instead you want to stop lots of spam but still receive some legitimate mail then what you want is to use zen.spamhaus.org. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:23:30 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <77088$46750bac$cef8887a$30844@TEKSAVVY.COM> Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > I don't know how clever they are. They probably intentionally don't > spam the same recipient address from the same address within a short > time. I can usually tell when a "spam attack" arrives. My OPA0: beeps a few time. All calls to port 25, all coming from the same IP. (I'd say 5 to ten calls). A few minutes later, same thing, but coming from a different IP. These are rejected by the spamhaus so I don't get to the SMTP dialogue to find out who these messages are for. I suspect multiple recipients for my domain. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:01:06 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article , david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > >In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > >Gunshannon) writes: > > > >> So, what is the technological solution? > > > >ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of > >version 5.4). > > > Yes that will stop spam - it will reject everything. zen.spamhouse.org > returns 127.0.0.2 for everything - see http://www.spamhouse.org. > If instead you want to stop lots of spam but still receive some legitimate mail > then what you want is to use zen.spamhaus.org. Indeed, I often make this typo (but never have in SMTP.CONFIG). ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 13:05:27 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dkpsmF350el9U2@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5dj9m5F347nggU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article <46745B94.3050108@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> In article , >> >> helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >> >> reply) writes: >> >> >> >>>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel >> >>> writes: >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >> >>>> >> >>>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I just >> >>>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search for >> >>>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while >> >>>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >> >>>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >> >>>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 days! >> >>>> This is something like 328 per day!! >> >>> >> >>>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as an >> >>>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. >> >> >> >> >> >> So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start >> >> looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical >> >> solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or >> >> the load it puts on the system? >> >> >> > >> > Several years ago, I read that fewer than 200 men were responsible for >> > 90% of the spam. If this is true, perhaps the solution is to ask the >> > Mafia to deal with the problem, pro bono publico! Even if we had to >> > take up a collection to pay them, it would be worth it. >> >> Considering that I get SPAM from more than 200 locations and there are >> probably more SPAM businesses than that I think it is a rather dubious >> statistic. >> > > > Eh? Think zombies around the world controlled by the few. My point exactly. If we were talking "200 people" it would be trivial to stop, but we are not. We are talking thousands upon thousands. Which is why my suggestion is to establish a network of "trusted" email sites. Once you have most of your serious email coming from sites you know you can trust it becomes much easier (and safer) to aggressively filter the masses. Eventually, there would be two distinct email networks (think of it like INTERNET and INTERNET-II) one for people who want to do serious work and one for the common man to play on. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 13:11:53 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dkq8pF350el9U3@mid.individual.net> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <5dj9m5F347nggU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: > >> Considering that I get SPAM from more than 200 locations and there are >> probably more SPAM businesses than that I think it is a rather dubious >> statistic. > > They are RESPONSIBLE for it. They don't spam from their own computer, > they hijack PCs via viruses. I now that. But it means you have an almost limitless supply of machines you need to avoid. And thus the reason for my suggestion that we need to establish a network of trusted email hosts. For the average serious user of email I would imagine more than 90% of his email comes from a very small handfull of legitimate email servers. Once you move these onto a trusted network, you no longer have to worry about missing one of their messages due to a false positive by some anti-SPAM program or your own simple email filters. And then, if you wish, you can get even more aggresive at filtering the stuff coming in from the badlands. And the nicest thing about it is all of the technology needed to do this already exists in a well tested and proven form its one shortcoming having been eliminated more than a decade ago. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 13:13:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dkqc9F350el9U4@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> And, as things stand now, it >> will only get worse because as fast as people come up with supposed anti- >> SPAM methods the SPAMers find a way around it. > > Something as simple as creating a NOSPAM account on my VMS system worked > for a few years (my newsgroup posting address was NOSPAM@mydomain), but > the B*stids got it in the end. > > It also confused the heck out of people who had a legitimate reason to > send me email. Which is, of course, one of the points I have been trying to make all along. I know what it does to my users as I am frequently asked, "Why couldn't I reply to this message?" Yet another case of punishing the victim. bill > -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 13:19:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <5dkqn3F350el9U5@mid.individual.net> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill > Gunshannon) writes: > >> So, what is the technological solution? > > ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of > version 5.4). And how much legitimate business have you lost because someone who wanted to contact you had their email bounced because of an RBL for reasons totally out of their control? It may stop some SPAM, but it also stops some legitimate traffic. And you will never know you lost that sale!! Realize, with my suggestion you can turn this whole thing around. Once you have all your regular business on a trusted network you can reverse the logic of your SPAM filtering. Start looking at email that comes in from the unttrusted network (ie. The INTERNET) with filters looking for keywords you want to see, like your product name or somthing else that doesn't look like "Viagra". :-) And, dump the rest. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:04:51 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <7cbdi.12236$2K1.10725@newsfe18.lga> On 06/17/07 03:05, P. Sture wrote: [snip] > > My ISP has recently tightened things up, as a couple of months ago the > spam volume dropped. Unfortunately, I believe I lost some valid emails > as well :-( You mean they just *delete* emails they think are spam???? My ISP at least sends them to the "Spam" folder where I can see them with web mail. But I guess people complaines, and now there is a configuration option of putting "-- Spam --" in the subject line of emails they score as spam. I now get all emails, and filter them into my own Spam folder where I can quick-scan for false-negatives. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 17 Jun 2007 16:08:25 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <46755c79$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <5dkqn3F350el9U5@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >> Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> So, what is the technological solution? >> >> ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of >> version 5.4). > >And how much legitimate business have you lost because someone who >wanted to contact you had their email bounced because of an RBL for >reasons totally out of their control? It may stop some SPAM, but >it also stops some legitimate traffic. And you will never know you >lost that sale!! I don't know how much likely is such a scenario for you, but for me it IS DEFINITELY not worth the hassle with more SPAM. So, I've more than one RBL in use on my private (VMS MX) mailservers... >Realize, with my suggestion you can turn this whole thing around. >Once you have all your regular business on a trusted network you >can reverse the logic of your SPAM filtering. Not really. Eg. I never had by company mailaddress posted on USENET and I don't use it for out of the company communication. Nevertheless, after 5 years of silence, I now get at least 10 SPAM mails per day on my company mail address (almost only recommendations for specific 'penny' shares). So, most likely, someone PC at my company seems to got infected and sent an address list out. And this is a umpteen thousand heads (financial) group with very restrictive rules for computers. For me that means, you'll never really have a 2nd Internet you can trust. -EPLAN PS: Signed mails are another trust attempt, but STILL future for most of us -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:28:14 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: <2ybdi.147649$NK5.137655@newsfe23.lga> On 06/17/07 03:16, P. Sture wrote: [snip] > > A variation on that is that someone technically literate receives an > accusation that they are sending out a virus. This makes them mad, so > they read the offending email, which of course contains the virus being > complained about - oops! > > Fortunately this technically literate dupe (i.e. me) had the presence of > mind to do this on a VMS system :-) Or Linux. But not FreeBSD. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:12:16 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dkpsmF350el9U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > "P. Sture" writes: >> In article <5dj9m5F347nggU1@mid.individual.net>, >> bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> >>> In article <46745B94.3050108@comcast.net>, >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >> In article , >>> >> helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to >>> >> reply) writes: >>> >> >>> >>>In article <1378bo75v2pl6a1@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel >>> >>> writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>And I thought the SPAM load was moderating (silly me). >>> >>>> >>> >>>>Looking for a specific e-mail I thought I should have received, I just >>> >>>>opened my PreciseMail Anti-SPAM quarrantined messages page to search for >>> >>>>it (without success). I don't do this often and haven't for a while >>> >>>>(obviously not since the last upgrade). Towards the top of the >>> >>>>2,967,263 byte report page is a (new to me) item "(Messages: 4605)". >>> >>>>That's four and one half thousand quarrantined SPAM in the past 14 days! >>> >>>> This is something like 328 per day!! >>> >>> >>> >>>That seems about average. I've resorted to using ZEN.SPAMHAUS.ORG as an >>> >>>RBL. That gets rid of the lion's share. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> So, how bad does it have to get before I can expect people to start >>> >> looking at my suggestion for a social solution rather than technical >>> >> solutions that may hide the problem but certainly don't reduce it or >>> >> the load it puts on the system? >>> >> >>> > >>> > Several years ago, I read that fewer than 200 men were responsible for >>> > 90% of the spam. If this is true, perhaps the solution is to ask the >>> > Mafia to deal with the problem, pro bono publico! Even if we had to >>> > take up a collection to pay them, it would be worth it. >>> >>> Considering that I get SPAM from more than 200 locations and there are >>> probably more SPAM businesses than that I think it is a rather dubious >>> statistic. >>> > >> >> Eh? Think zombies around the world controlled by the few. > >My point exactly. If we were talking "200 people" it would be trivial >to stop, but we are not. We are talking thousands upon thousands. >Which is why my suggestion is to establish a network of "trusted" email >sites. Once you have most of your serious email coming from sites you >know you can trust it becomes much easier (and safer) to aggressively >filter the masses. Eventually, there would be two distinct email networks >(think of it like INTERNET and INTERNET-II) one for people who want to >do serious work and one for the common man to play on. > Nowadays serious work with email is business and a large part of it is dealing with first-time customers. This even applies to academia where universities deal with questions from potential students - from all over the world - by email. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 15:39:11 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <5dkqn3F350el9U5@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >> In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >> Gunshannon) writes: >> >>> So, what is the technological solution? >> >> ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of >> version 5.4). > >And how much legitimate business have you lost because someone who >wanted to contact you had their email bounced because of an RBL for >reasons totally out of their control? It may stop some SPAM, but >it also stops some legitimate traffic. And you will never know you >lost that sale!! > However if things are setup correctly the sender should get back a message saying that they have been blocked because they are on that particular RBL. The idea is that the legitimate user can then complain to their ISP and persuade them to take action to make sure they are not on such RBLs. Since the rejection is done during the SMTP dialogue rather than after accepting the mail message the bounce with this reason is much more likely to get back to the legitimate sender. However using content scanners rather than RBLs provides it's own problems in this regard. The problem with deleting messages after they have been inspected by anti-spam content scanners is that the mail is silently discarded (since the scanning is generally done after the message has been accepted). A few anti-spam content scanners (including PMAS in pass-through proxy mode) now allow you to scan the mail and reject it during the SMTP dialogue but that really does cause problems for the legitimate sender. It is very difficult to pass back enough information in the rejection message as to why the mail message failed content scanning. When examining messages marked as spam by PMAS and looking at the reasons listed for the rejection in the header lines added by PMAS it is often difficult to work out precisely what triggered it without resorting to re-running the message through PMAS with debugging enabled. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Realize, with my suggestion you can turn this whole thing around. >Once you have all your regular business on a trusted network you >can reverse the logic of your SPAM filtering. Start looking at >email that comes in from the unttrusted network (ie. The INTERNET) >with filters looking for keywords you want to see, like your product >name or somthing else that doesn't look like "Viagra". :-) And, >dump the rest. > >bill > >-- >Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >University of Scranton | >Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 17:45:33 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: In article <1379t431jmdp204@corp.supernews.com>, Mark Daniel wrote: > P. Sture wrote: > > In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, > > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > > > >> And, as things stand now, it > >>will only get worse because as fast as people come up with supposed anti- > >>SPAM methods the SPAMers find a way around it. > > > > > > Something as simple as creating a NOSPAM account on my VMS system worked > > for a few years (my newsgroup posting address was NOSPAM@mydomain), but > > the B*stids got it in the end. > > Let's not beat around the Bush here. No pejorative is too strong for > these illegitimate bastards [tautology I know] and in this case our > condemnation of choice should not be obfuscated. I'm not an advocate of > capital punishment (except in the case of adulterers and those that > kindle fires on Shabbat of course) but in the case of SPAMers I might > reconsider. It's as if our telephones were ringing every four minutes, > twenty-four hours a day. How long should we put up with that? [rhetorical] > I've worked in offices with unanswered phones which rang incessantly. Never again if I can possibly avoid it. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:40:00 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: Re: PLUG: PMAS Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > >>In article <5djfl4F3575eiU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill >>Gunshannon) writes: >> >> >>>So, what is the technological solution? >> >>ZEN.SPAMHOUSE.ORG. It's an RBL. And it works fine with HP TCPIP (as of >>version 5.4). > > > And how much legitimate business have you lost because someone who > wanted to contact you had their email bounced because of an RBL for > reasons totally out of their control? It may stop some SPAM, but > it also stops some legitimate traffic. And you will never know you > lost that sale!! With the current state of art of spam filtering, the real state of the art, not the one promoted by many commercial spam filtering, the error rate of the most popular and free DNSbls is almost too low to be measured. It is far lower than the rate of human error, or from e-mail lost through various network and server failures on the Internet. Current state of the art for using something like the zen list from spamhaus has resulted in statistics from multiple sources of from about 80 to over 90% of spam delivery attempts blocked and no false positives. I have been monitoring forums where people complain about incorrect blocking of DNSbls very loudly for quite a few years now. In the past 5 years, I have seen 0 (zero) complaints about an incorrect listing on a spamhaus list. All the ones that I have seen about open relay and open proxy lists have turned out that there really was a severe problem on the mail server that the owner refused to admit or fix until they found almost no one accepting their e-mail. Even on the aggressive spamcop.net list, in the majority of the cases where someone complains about an incorrect listing, the investigation shows that criminals and spammers had more control of the mail server. In the past 10 years, I have had only two people claim that their attempt to e-mail me was blocked because they sent it from a mail server operating on a DHCP address. And in both cases, their ISPs had publicly readable TOS that stated that it was prohibited for those I.P. addresses to be running any servers. Because other large ISPs are starting to totally block other ISPs that allow zombies to send spam from their DHCP ranges, most residential ISPs are planning to implement port 25 blocking for those ranges. And in many cases such blocks are implemented with out notice to their customers in order to get a block removed or to prevent a block from being put in. > Realize, with my suggestion you can turn this whole thing around. > Once you have all your regular business on a trusted network you > can reverse the logic of your SPAM filtering. Start looking at > email that comes in from the unttrusted network (ie. The INTERNET) > with filters looking for keywords you want to see, like your product > name or somthing else that doesn't look like "Viagra". :-) And, > dump the rest. Keyword filtering even with Bayesian filtering has been shown to be totally ineffective at spam filtering at a global basis. Every system that I have seen implemented, has been totally ineffective at detecting the majority of spam, including ones that are easily detected because of header defects that are *NEVER* found in legitimate e-mail. The only content filtering that I have seen that is 100% accurate in detecting the presence of spam in a message is the URL lookup, where it checks to see if a URL resolves to an IP address in a conservative blocking list. And you only want to do that check if there is a header defect, the source is a public web-mailer, or the source is on an aggressive list like a multihop or an aggressive list like spamcop.net. Combining the URL check on the small percentage of spam that gets through a good selection of conservative blocking lists can get the spam leakage down to far less than 1 percent. Again with less risk of rejecting a real email than human error of just hit delete. The thing to remember is that anti-spam systems that are cause detected spam to be rejected have visible "error" rates, and overwhelmingly those cases are from severe problems with the sending system. Unfortunately what is far more visible than the success stories, mostly with open source and free products, is products in the commercial sector that do not work and are fundamentally flawed in their operation. Any system that does not issue SMTP rejects for detected spam is flawed, because it will have silent errors. Basically where I see the effort right now in the anti-spam community is a growing war against "backscatter" where mail servers are sending new bounce messages for detected spam and viruses instead of SMTP rejects. This war has been pushed because some of the low end and cheap commercial mail servers can not do spam and virus filtering properly, and at least one major "anti-spam/anti-virus" product comes out of the box configured to send a backscatter message to any thing it detects. That an anti-spam product even has that as an option, let alone a default, means that the author has no clue about how spam and viruses exploit weaknesses in the SMTP protocol, and you do not want to have such a thing touching your e-mail if you care about it. Many small networks have had their mail servers or other equipment overloaded from such backscatter, and it is very common for dial up users to find that they are losing legitimate e-mail because their mail quota was full of backscatter from a virus or spam. The social solution to the spam problem is to expose the bad practices in mail server operation for what they are and to refuse e-mail from those networks that permit such things to happen. And this is happening more with large networks and private blacklists than it is with public ones. But it is happening with both. I think that Hunter has posted here that the PMAS as a proxy server rejects the detected spam before it gets into the mail server. As I do not operate a mail server (It is prohibited by the class of service I have from my ISP) I have not actually tried the product. -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:26:32 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget Message-ID: http://computerworld.com.edgesuite.net/digital_mainframe_11981.jpg -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 19:08:22 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Proof that, at least once, DEC had a marketing budget Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson wrote: > http://computerworld.com.edgesuite.net/digital_mainframe_11981.jpg Here's a phrase I like: "highly paid programmers" -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 06:20:31 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: SMTP oddity, double headers Message-ID: <9cc2f$46750afa$cef8887a$30844@TEKSAVVY.COM> Got this in my mailbox: Return-Path: niwanohanami@yahoo.co.jp Received: from p8017-ipad605marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (124.85.145.17) by chain.vixenation.ca (V5.6-9, OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha); Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Return-Path: Delivered-To: Message-ID: 20070603201813.48698mail@mail.rfrtguoiuqouwh.com From: niwanohanami@yahoo.co.jp To: jfmezei@vixenation.ca Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?jaGT+oLNgrGC6oLIgqKCzIKpgsiBQoFC?= Return-Path: niwanohanami@yahoo.co.jp Received: from p8017-ipad605marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (124.85.145.17) by chain.vixenation.ca (V5.6-9, OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha); Sun, 17 Jun 2007 05:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Return-Path: Delivered-To: Message-ID: 20070603201813.48698mail@mail.rfrtguoiuqouwh.com From: niwanohanami@yahoo.co.jp To: jfmezei@vixenation.ca Subject: =?iso-2022-jp?B?jaGT+oLNgrGC6oLIgqKCzIKpgsiBQoFC?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (followed by spam) Normally, I wouldn't really bother with such messages, but in this one, the second "fake" header is identical to the first one. It is extremely unlikely that the second header could have been faked, and this this raises the suspicion that a bug in the SMTP receiver or symbiont duplicated the header. The message is stored in the mail.mai file (not an external file), so it is hard to gauge if this was a CR-LF malformation. In both VMSmail and in netscape via IMAP, the Subject: is blank. (I dont have japanese fonts). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 09:10:09 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Thanks for the Help Robert ! Message-ID: In article , Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Robert Deininger wrote: > > management capabilities. > > > > Here's a URL that I guess needs more advertisement: > > http://docs.hp.com/ > > > > You won't find all of HP's documents here, but if you type the model name > > of any of the Integrity servers (for example rx3600) into the search box, > > it will return pretty much all of the available manuals for that system. > > (Along with some junk hits.) > > > > WHAT! RTFM! Surely you jest! :-) In my experience, VMS customers _do_ Read The Fine Manuals. Just a theory, but I think it has something to do with them being well written :-) > Seriously, I do make great use of the various on-line manuals at > the HP site and have found them very valuable. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.328 ************************