INFO-VAX Sat, 16 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 325 Contents: Re: 2007 HP Worldwide User Advocacy Support Re: Another opportunity Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Create PC readable CDRom on OpenVMS Re: Create PC readable CDRom on OpenVMS Re: Duplicate MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR messages in TCPIP$SMTP_LOGFILE.LOG Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Re: More TCPIP nonsense Re: More TCPIP nonsense Re: More TCPIP nonsense Of CERT and VMS Re: Of CERT and VMS Re: Of CERT and VMS Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Re: Story Time Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Thanks for the Help Robert ! Re: Thanks for the Help Robert ! Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Re: Who's in the Phoenix area? Re: Who's in the Phoenix area? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:21:42 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: 2007 HP Worldwide User Advocacy Support Message-ID: <46734936.D2B219B@spam.comcast.net> Jeff Campbell wrote: > [snip] > > I attempted to take the survey, but HP is not interested in my input as > I am not currently a business user. Could answer from the perspective of your most recent VMS position? (There's going to be more and more former VMS-ers, so that should be an entirely valid paradigm.) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:47:51 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Another opportunity Message-ID: <07061517475132_202003EE@antinode.org> > Lately, I've been putting SCSI DVD-ROM drives into everything I can > ("TOSHIBA DVD-ROM SD-M1711", probably pulled from Sun systems), and > these _do_ have a block-size jumper (which was already installed), and I > haven't tried using one without it, so I don't have an easy way to check > this again. For the record, I just tried booting an XP1000 from one of those Toshiba SD-M1711 DVD-ROM drives with its "512/2K" jumper removed (loaded with a VMS V7.3-2 CD-R), and it worked just fine. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:44:25 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46732459.29F93FF4@spam.comcast.net> Dave Froble wrote: > > John Smith wrote: > > > 4) What about staff retention - have they mentioned that their staff may > > want to have relevant *marketable* experience with the technologies that can > > get them new jobs if the company downsizes/outsources them? I'm sure that > > has to be in the minds of everyone in the IT divisions except perhaps the > > CIO. > > I see this argument used all the time. Frankly, I don't understand it. > Is it part of an employer's responsibility to train employees for > their next job? It depends. Part of keeping good people includes training them to be more and more productive. It's common knowledge that keeping good people is cheaper and less risky than turning staff over just because of technology changes. Training outside of their job responsibilities is at the option of the employee at the employee's expense. > You train employees for the job that you wish them to do. There is no > other requirements. Reminds me of a poster I saw once: +---------------------+ | This job is a test. | | It is only a test. | | | | Had this been a | | real job, you would | | have received | | training, raises | | and a promotion. | +---------------------+ -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:29:20 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: On 06/15/07 18:44, David J Dachtera wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> John Smith wrote: >> >>> 4) What about staff retention - have they mentioned that their staff may >>> want to have relevant *marketable* experience with the technologies that can >>> get them new jobs if the company downsizes/outsources them? I'm sure that >>> has to be in the minds of everyone in the IT divisions except perhaps the >>> CIO. >> I see this argument used all the time. Frankly, I don't understand it. >> Is it part of an employer's responsibility to train employees for >> their next job? > > It depends. > > Part of keeping good people includes training them to be more and more > productive. It's common knowledge that keeping good people is cheaper and less > risky than turning staff over just because of technology changes. However, replacing a $100,000 employee with "lots of process knowledge that might not be so useful anymore" with a $60,000 "knows the new tech" new hire is easier for the employer. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:43:00 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <51385$4673402b$cef8887a$16915@TEKSAVVY.COM> Ron Johnson wrote: > However, replacing a $100,000 employee with "lots of process > knowledge that might not be so useful anymore" with a $60,000 "knows > the new tech" new hire is easier for the employer. Which is why VMS loyalists really need HP to market VMS because unless HP makes VMS look like an attractive technology, our skills are worthless and we cannot help HP push/sell VMS since we are seen as dinausors trying to push antique technology. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:46:10 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: On 06/15/07 20:43, JF Mezei wrote: [snip] > worthless and we cannot help HP push/sell VMS since we are seen as > dinausors trying to push antique technology. And dinosaurs without spell checkers, at that! ;) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:28:52 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <46734AE4.AA7AF091@spam.comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > > On 06/15/07 18:44, David J Dachtera wrote: > > Dave Froble wrote: > >> John Smith wrote: > >> > >>> 4) What about staff retention - have they mentioned that their staff may > >>> want to have relevant *marketable* experience with the technologies that can > >>> get them new jobs if the company downsizes/outsources them? I'm sure that > >>> has to be in the minds of everyone in the IT divisions except perhaps the > >>> CIO. > >> I see this argument used all the time. Frankly, I don't understand it. > >> Is it part of an employer's responsibility to train employees for > >> their next job? > > > > It depends. > > > > Part of keeping good people includes training them to be more and more > > productive. It's common knowledge that keeping good people is cheaper and less > > risky than turning staff over just because of technology changes. > > However, replacing a $100,000 employee with "lots of process > knowledge that might not be so useful anymore" with a $60,000 "knows > the new tech" new hire is easier for the employer. It depends. What's the cost of the ramp-up time? (say: "orientation") What risk is imposed by what the newbie doesn't know about the existing (I almost said "legacy") systems? ...and does that negate the imagined annual savings in salary? ...and how likely is that person to not seek another position knowing that your company considers him/her and expendable commodity? Yeah - U.S. Corporate America has its values up its ass even further than its head. Eventually, "the monster" doesn't care who it bites. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 01:16:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: > What risk is imposed by what the newbie doesn't know about the existing (I > almost said "legacy") systems? That is not it. At interview: Newbie: "Sure, I can set tha up in 25 minutes." Experienced guy: "I will need to sit down and plan this to ensure no mistakes are made and that this architecture can grow/scale and be reliable. This often choose the newbie because he can deliver faster. And they don't understand the need to properly architect a system. When is important to them is to have it up and running ASAP. And problems that crop up later on due to poro planning anc architecting of the system are irrelevant. Also, the newbie guy will promise to bring that company up to the latest and greatest technologies and give that company a competitive edge. The experienced guy will just promise to run a system reliably. > > ...and does that negate the imagined annual savings in salary? > > ...and how likely is that person to not seek another position knowing that your > company considers him/her and expendable commodity? > > Yeah - U.S. Corporate America has its values up its ass even further than its > head. Eventually, "the monster" doesn't care who it bites. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:42:45 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Create PC readable CDRom on OpenVMS Message-ID: In article <4672a0b8$1@news.langstoeger.at>, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In article <1181891193.159021.124420@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, > stuie_norris@yahoo.com.au writes: > >Is it possible on OpenVMS 8.2 Alpha or OpenVMS 8.2 I64 to create a PC > >readable CDRom. > > You know that OpenVMS V8.3 (UPDATE V2) is current? > And you know that even LD V8.3 is newer than LD in VMS V8.3? > And you know that LD V9.0 (http://www.digiater.nl/downloads) is current? > > I know of http://www.tmesis.com/cdrom which even talks about mixed format > (ODS/ISO) CDroms (while you seem to only need ISO9660 ;-) > > OTOH, I haven't checked it for years and maybe it need a little brushup > to cover recent VMS versions (with integrated LD support)... > > >I wish to transfer files off site to a PC and I was thinking about > >doing it via CDRom. > > Or CD-RW or network or ... > > >I know that CDRECORD and LDdriver are installed. (It is unlikely I > >can get other programs installed). > > MKISOFS would be handy, though (or you end up producing ODS-2 CDs and > you need then an ODS2.EXE on your PC to read them - and ODS2.EXE does AFAIK > no longer work on XP and newer - only on W2K and before - is that right?) > Larry Kilgallen's LJK/CDROM product can produce ISO 9600 format disk images. These can then be burned using the recording software of your choice. > >Yes I have a CDRW drive and I can see this with CRECORD. I have burnt > >OpenVMS reabable CDs previously. > > Sounds good. > > >What about LF /CR in text files? > > Don't know. If Notepad has a problem displaying a textfile, I try Wordpad > and it usually works. What problems do you have? I think this should do the trick: $ convert a.txt b.txt /fdl=sys$input: FILE ORGANIZATION sequential RECORD BLOCK_SPAN yes CARRIAGE_CONTROL none FORMAT stream -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 17:03:25 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: Create PC readable CDRom on OpenVMS Message-ID: <07061517032530_202003EE@antinode.org> From: "Eberhard Heuser" > > ftp://antinode.org/cdrtools/ I see a small up-tick of apparent confusion in my FTP server log, so, in case it's related, I'll note that that's a VMS FTP server, so lame clients and/or proxies may be bewildered by it. The same stuff is available using HTTP: http://antinode.org/ftp/cdrtools/ The latest VMS-adapted source kit is in: ftp://antinode.org/cdrtools/cdrtools-2_01_01a25/ http://antinode.org/ftp/cdrtools/cdrtools-2_01_01a25/ The source source is up to "a27", but I didn't see any major changes. ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/alpha/ As usual, I haven't tested it much, but EH claims that (at least some of) it works, so what could go wrong? Complaints are always welcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:21:28 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Duplicate MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR messages in TCPIP$SMTP_LOGFILE.LOG Message-ID: sol gongola wrote: > I want to examine information from the TCPIP$SMTP_LOGFILE.LOG > using search,sort and DCL scripts on the MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR error messages. Perl and other languages with regexp capabilities are good implementation choices here. > I've noticed that each occurrence of an incoming message to a > nonexistent user has the following message sequence and was > wondering why one of the messages is duplicated and if it is > possible to get rid of the duplicate message. > > -> %%%%%%%%%%%% 15-JUN-2007 06:35:40.69 %%%%%%%%%%%% > -> %MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR, no such user DAKINEWAVE > -> Failed to deliver local mail to > -> %MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR, no such user !AS > -> > -> > -> %%%%%%%%%%%% 15-JUN-2007 06:35:40.69 %%%%%%%%%%%% > -> %MAIL-E-NOSUCHUSR, no such user DAKINEWAVE > Looks like minor and untoward behavior. Not so much a bug, but definitely a form of ill-considered behavior. Assuming a supported version of OpenVMS and TCP/IP with current ECO kits loaded still manifests this, it's fodder for a formal report to HP. Otherwise, you'll likely want to catch the matched time values and ignore the second message. The use of postmaster delivery of these messages can be enabled as well, though that's no fun when some idiot starts a spam run and tosses a dictionary attack at your box. Alternatively, I haven't checked to see if this gets event logged anywhere else. Like in accounting, or somewhere... -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:28:58 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Message-ID: On 06/15/07 12:20, ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > On Jun 15, 12:20 pm, s...@obanion.us wrote: >> Considering that Hubble converted to UNIX by 2000, there wonldn't seem >> to be much point. >> >> http://sunset.usc.edu/gsaw/gsaw2004/s7/burch.pdf >> >> Sean >> >> On Jun 15, 7:36 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >>> this jsut validates the quality of VMS and DEC hardware ... >>> I wonder if they still run vaxstations on it or upgraded to >>> alpha, and what software the programs were written in ... >>> WHY DOESN'T HP ADVERTISE THIS? >>> http://hubble.nasa.gov/missions/intro.php >>> http://hubblesite.org/servicing_mission_4/- Hide quoted text - >> - Show quoted text - > > and notice page 19 ... > > - went from VMS based systems to unix based > > - new challenges surfaced i.e. IT security > > they claim cost was a factor ... bet they found their costs are > now much higher than staying on the vms systems due to > these new "chalenges" ... The probably deemed the extra processing & visualization power worth it. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:29:42 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Message-ID: In article <1181918166.613419.265430@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > this jsut validates the quality of VMS and DEC hardware ... > I wonder if they still run vaxstations on it or upgraded to > alpha, and what software the programs were written in ... > > WHY DOESN'T HP ADVERTISE THIS? > > > http://hubble.nasa.gov/missions/intro.php > > http://hubblesite.org/servicing_mission_4/ > What has that to do with VMS ? It's not mentioned there, not even if I use the search gadgets. And: Do you really think it would be good to advertise with a device whose fate is sealed anyway ? Ah, I can imagine the ad: Hubble, with "VMS" written all over it, drops into the ocean and drowns. I'd suggest to choose the "Inkian Ocean" as a location. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:46:44 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Message-ID: <00A692E4.74C45C1B@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181928015.429399.24540@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > >On Jun 15, 12:20 pm, s...@obanion.us wrote: >> Considering that Hubble converted to UNIX by 2000, there wonldn't seem >> to be much point. >> >> http://sunset.usc.edu/gsaw/gsaw2004/s7/burch.pdf >> >> Sean >> >> On Jun 15, 7:36 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> > this jsut validates the quality of VMS and DEC hardware ... >> > I wonder if they still run vaxstations on it or upgraded to >> > alpha, and what software the programs were written in ... >> >> > WHY DOESN'T HP ADVERTISE THIS? >> >> >http://hubble.nasa.gov/missions/intro.php >> >> >http://hubblesite.org/servicing_mission_4/- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >and notice page 19 ... > >- went from VMS based systems to unix based > >- new challenges surfaced i.e. IT security > >they claim cost was a factor ... bet they found their costs are >now much higher than staying on the vms systems due to >these new "chalenges" ... Where the hell are you reading this??? I've followed your links and down see any "page 19" let alone a reference to VMS. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:09:08 +0100 From: Mark McIntyre Subject: Re: Hubble/OpenVMS to continue thru at least 2013 - 23 years! Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:46:44 GMT, in comp.os.vms , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >In article <1181928015.429399.24540@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >> >> >>On Jun 15, 12:20 pm, s...@obanion.us wrote: >>> Considering that Hubble converted to UNIX by 2000, there wonldn't seem >>> to be much point. >>> >>> http://sunset.usc.edu/gsaw/gsaw2004/s7/burch.pdf >>> > >Where the hell are you reading this??? I've followed your links and >down see any "page 19" let alone a reference to VMS. The link above is to a PDF presentation from NASA. On page 19, they list amongst other things converting to a distributed unix platform. -- Mark McIntyre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:30:00 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: More TCPIP nonsense Message-ID: On 06/15/07 10:07, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/15/07 06:41, Richard Maher wrote: >> Honestly, just a Clue Crash or something to confirm that TCPIP >> Services was >> the culprit when the crash occured would be great. > > Patience, grasshopper. Trying to get it from the SysAdmin. Where can I find the crash dump file? Is it pointed to by a logical? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:57:20 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: More TCPIP nonsense Message-ID: <00A692E5.F00408AF@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > >On 06/15/07 10:07, Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 06/15/07 06:41, Richard Maher wrote: >>> Honestly, just a Clue Crash or something to confirm that TCPIP >>> Services was >>> the culprit when the crash occured would be great. >> >> Patience, grasshopper. Trying to get it from the SysAdmin. > >Where can I find the crash dump file? Is it pointed to by a logical? It is typically, if there is one, in SYS$SYSTEM:SYSDUMP.DMP. If the machine is configured to use DOSD, you need to look on other devices. Google OpenVMS system dump DOSD You should get all the info you need. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 23:50:50 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: More TCPIP nonsense Message-ID: On 06/15/07 13:57, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> >> On 06/15/07 10:07, Ron Johnson wrote: >>> On 06/15/07 06:41, Richard Maher wrote: >>>> Honestly, just a Clue Crash or something to confirm that TCPIP >>>> Services was >>>> the culprit when the crash occured would be great. >>> Patience, grasshopper. Trying to get it from the SysAdmin. >> Where can I find the crash dump file? Is it pointed to by a logical? > > It is typically, if there is one, in SYS$SYSTEM:SYSDUMP.DMP. If the > machine is configured to use DOSD, you need to look on other devices. > > Google OpenVMS system dump DOSD > You should get all the info you need. I tries to send the CLUE CRASH as an attachment, but it never arrived. I wonder if my ISP is blocking all attachments from non-binary groups? Anyway, here's a link to the CLUE CRASH: http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson/mdta01_crash_dump.txt -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:22:54 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Of CERT and VMS Message-ID: <7b0d8$4672f525$cef8887a$24851@TEKSAVVY.COM> Say one were to find a way to use brute force to get to a username/password on VMS without any usable logging. One were to write a letter to VMS management asking them to forward this to the appropriate product manager. How long should one wait for some acknowledgement before starting to publically warn the user community ? Should such warning be limited only to C.O.V, or should we use this opportunity to market VMS by going to CERT ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:27:19 +0000 (UTC) From: Cydrome Leader Subject: Re: Of CERT and VMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Say one were to find a way to use brute force to get to a > username/password on VMS without any usable logging. One were to write a > letter to VMS management asking them to forward this to the appropriate > product manager. > > How long should one wait for some acknowledgement before starting to > publically warn the user community ? > > Should such warning be limited only to C.O.V, or should we use this > opportunity to market VMS by going to CERT ? Just post the exploit to usenet, and somebody will eventually fix it. Why wait? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:33:32 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Of CERT and VMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Say one were to find a way to use brute force to get to a > username/password on VMS without any usable logging. One were to write a > letter to VMS management asking them to forward this to the appropriate > product manager. Leo Demers is (or was) the contact for these; for out-of-channels security reports. The customer support center or a local ambassador was the other reporting technique. Or you could lob it at Robert or Fred or Warren or one of the other HP folks that visit here. There are many ways to brute-force the password database. John The Ripper is a good one. There are other ways. These are generally not considered vulnerabilities, as there has to be some form of privileged access before these attacks can become viable. > How long should one wait for some acknowledgement before starting to > publically warn the user community ? There's no answer for that. Some folks broadcast wide, some don't. Some wait, some don't. Some folks have even tried to sell these, though that tends to attract the attention of various other organizations. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:12:18 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > I know it is currently not supported. That sort of detail hasn't ever seemingly slowed your creativity. > But just wondering if it would be architecturally possible to have a > single system disk support multiple architectures ? Many things are technically possible. Only a subset of what is technically possible tends to be financially advisable and viable. > What this ever considered ? Nope. Wow. What an amazing, staggering, scintillating and elegant idea. But seriously... Yes, it was considered. These sorts of things are trade-offs in most any non-trivial project. You have to look at all of what you want, and you have to figure out what you can deliver and what you can sell. This process tends to lead to many otherwise good ideas being discarded. The astute reader will note that the VAX and Alpha bootblock structures (BTBDEF) were designed with this in mind. The MBR and related structures of OpenVMS I64 are not compatible with the expectations of VAX and Alpha, however. As with many other ideas, the idea of multi-architecture system disks was discarded, given the effort involved in getting this all working and the expected payback. BTB and MBR (and MBR/GPT) bootblock details are available in various places, including . Bootstrap sequence details are in the LabsNotes and related materials, and in the various Internals and Data Structures Manuals (IDSM) and other documents. The answer then was "get another disk", and I think you've heard a similar answer more recently. So-called fat binaries were also discussed, and that idea was discarded. These are multi-architecture executable images. Binary translation was also discussed, and was implemented and used. Partitioned disks were also discussed with Alpha, and again with OpenVMS I64, and the idea was discarded. Replacing the entire OpenVMS kernel was discussed, and prototyped. (There's an engineering study that was published, and that is still around. qv: A Model and Prototype of VMS Using the Mach 3.0 Kernel, the filename is usually usenix_vms-on-mach.ps.) Parallel directories were considered, as well as parallel directories for the various Alpha EV4 through EV5, and EV56 through EV7z images. Key here was byte-word, though specific applications can seek to use other Alpha instruction subsets. Logical names were considered. In some cases, logical names are used. This was done with D and G float tools on some MicroVAX boxes, and again with some Alpha images known to be sensitive to the instruction set. Knowledge of SYS$SYSDEVICE structures and directories is quite simply encoded all over the place, and the changes from V3 to V4 and the cluster common disk created enough fun. And the differences involved in getting Alpha going. Getting Alpha going was generally intended to avoid having to recode everything, and to avoid derailing VAX. What wasn't as visible was that Alpha was a major break from VAX, both in terms of the architecture, and in the organizational processes and tools and mechanisms used to get it engineered, built, debugged, and shipping. It wasn't until rather later that many of the tools and processes and the environments were rationalized and resynchronized. The goal of the work was and is to get it out the door, and to keep VAX and Alpha working similarly, and to keep it selling, and to avoid tipping over existing applications. Concepts such as "Wonderful" and "cool" have always tended to take a back seat to requirements around reliability and compatibility and revenue, and what features customers wanted and were willing to pay for. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:30:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: Stephen Hoffman wrote: > The astute reader will note that the VAX and Alpha bootblock > structures (BTBDEF) were designed with this in mind. The MBR and > related structures of OpenVMS I64 are not compatible with the > expectations of VAX and Alpha, however. Thanks for taking the time to explain all of this. Is it correct to state that if using MOP to boot, then this bypasses the bootblock issues except for one server that has to boot from a disk before it can start serving MOP requests ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 15:52:18 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: <6_Cci.76350$3L1.12336@newsfe14.lga> On 06/15/07 15:12, Stephen Hoffman wrote: [snip] > > Replacing the entire OpenVMS kernel was discussed, and prototyped. > (There's an engineering study that was published, and that is still > around. qv: A Model and Prototype of VMS Using the Mach 3.0 Kernel, the > filename is usually usenix_vms-on-mach.ps.) It'll be an interesting read! -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 16:54:30 -0400 From: Stephen Hoffman Subject: Re: Same system disk for multiple architectures ? Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Is it correct to state that if using MOP to boot, then this bypasses the > bootblock issues except for one server that has to boot from a disk > before it can start serving MOP requests ? I'm not aware of any VAX, Alpha or Integrity systems that must boot from disk to boot from the network -- the closest analogs are the Itanium bootstrap from a disk image (for a controller that EFI itself isn't able to boot) and the VAX bootstrap from the tape controller. (The former case falls out of EFI, For the latter case, look inside STABACKIT for some details.) In very general details... console disk boot --> minimally prepare system --> find disk --> find and decode boot block --> find and load primary bootstrap into memory --> transfer control --> find and load secondary bootstrap. console network boot --> minimally prepare system --> find network --> issue MOP or PXE load request --> receive and load system loader into memory --> load primary bootstrap over network into memory --> transfer control --> find and load secondary bootstrap Nothing here precludes the network loader from itself being basically a network-enabled primary bootstrap; you might well end up with a variation of a boot image. Depending on the box and the task (OpenVMS Cluster boot, an InfoServer ISL, DECserver or MicroServer boot, etc), some MOP loads are classically in multiple pieces, and some are not. Nothing here precludes the console from including an embedded version of the primary bootstrap, and going directly after the secondary bootstrap -- this is the case on various VAX systems with a console-based VMB, and arguably also with the residence of the primary bootstrap (IPB) within the EFI console environment. For the specific pieces of what MOP uses for OpenVMS, take a look in the DECnet database for a bootstrap, and take a look at the available MOP documents. Additional details are in the Internals and Data Structures Manual; the IDSM. If you want to know this sort of detail, you will want to read the IDSM and the related materials. Details on booting a diskless Mac OS X box are available in the Mac OS X Server documentation, if you want to see how another platform -- that you have access to -- implements this sort of network bootstrap. -- www.HoffmanLabs.com Services for OpenVMS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 21:31:20 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <46734B78.69DEADF8@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Arne Vajhøj wrote: > > Latex has been popular in academics for decades. > > and WANK has been popular with men of all types for centuries/millenia. > > Also, there are plenty of people outside of academia who are into Latex > as well. ...and leather, chains, Mazola, ... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 19:40:53 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: In article <00A6929A.DBDCC044@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > OK. The session I posted was to my V7.3-2 system with HP TCP/IP Services > for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 4. I will try this with a newer ver- > sion machine later today. Perhaps it's time to update the TCP/IP on this > particular machine. I don't see it with V7.3-2 and a newer ECO. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 04:44:05 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP Services SFTP Message-ID: <00A69337.E7B2427F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >In article <00A6929A.DBDCC044@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- >@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >> OK. The session I posted was to my V7.3-2 system with HP TCP/IP Services >> for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 4. I will try this with a newer ver- >> sion machine later today. Perhaps it's time to update the TCP/IP on this >> particular machine. > >I don't see it with V7.3-2 and a newer ECO. Which ECO? I'll try the same and see if that fixes it. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:41:43 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Thanks for the Help Robert ! Message-ID: <1375naqge0u9m96@news.supernews.com> Well, Thanks to Mr Deininger at HP I know have a reasonable (and getting better) understanding of the management interface on the Integrity boxes. I understand why so many VMS users have the hugest amount of confidence in the OS and their developers when dealing with the likes of Mr Deininger! Thanks again Robert! Oh BTW - I got that bloody light to change ! :0) David -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 13:59:13 -0700 From: Malcolm Dunnett Subject: Re: Thanks for the Help Robert ! Message-ID: <4672fdab$1@flight> David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > Well, Thanks to Mr Deininger at HP I know have a reasonable (and getting > better) understanding of the management interface on the Integrity boxes. > > I understand why so many VMS users have the hugest amount of confidence in > the OS and their developers when dealing with the likes of Mr Deininger! > > Thanks again Robert! > > Oh BTW - I got that bloody light to change ! > I too had a steep learning curve when I got my first Itanium, but now that I've played around with them for a while I quite like the management capabilities. I'm particularly fond of the remote console capability the MP board provides, in fact it's the only console I have on them. One thing I don't like is that if you lose the firmware you don't have a failsafe loader like the Alphas did, you have to replace the motherboard. Also, if all the incantations aren't done in precisely the right order when you replace the motherboard you end up with inconsistent system ID errors which only the inner sanctum of HP personnel are allowed to know how to fix. Fortunately the systems still run fine, they just complain a bit during start up. In case I haven't said it enough, I too want to thank the HP folks (and others) in this group who've helped me solve various headscratchers over the years. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 2007 15:27:33 -0400 From: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Message-ID: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > In article , Rich Alderson > writes: >> To most non-VMS/non-Tops-20 people, speaking of a hierarchical filesystem >> implies a single system-wise filesystem root, a la Multics. > I think there are vastly more users of Windows than Unix/Linux systems and > their hierarchical file system does not have a single system-wise filesystem > root instead having device roots (ie similar to VMS). Point taken. -- Rich Alderson | /"\ ASCII ribbon | news@alderson.users.panix.com | \ / campaign against | "You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." | x HTML mail and | --Death, of the Endless | / \ postings | ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 2007 21:21:04 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS analogue of FBSD and linux hier(7) man pages Message-ID: <5dge60F35463gU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Rich Alderson writes: > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: > >> In article , Rich Alderson >> writes: > >>> To most non-VMS/non-Tops-20 people, speaking of a hierarchical filesystem >>> implies a single system-wise filesystem root, a la Multics. > >> I think there are vastly more users of Windows than Unix/Linux systems and >> their hierarchical file system does not have a single system-wise filesystem >> root instead having device roots (ie similar to VMS). > > Point taken. Actually, most Windows user wouldn't know a hierarchical file systemr if it bit them on the butt and could actually care less. Even Windows techies really understand little beyond installing and trying to keep the system running. They have no backgrond in computers, OSes, archi- tectures or anything else that might be considered "Computer Science". And they don't care. The future of the industry does not look all that promising!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:50:25 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Who's in the Phoenix area? Message-ID: Rescue? YOu mean go get it or repair it? We do repairs on Alphaservers and Workstations up to and including the GS320 In most cases we turn around the system within 2 days If you or anyone needs a fixit company we charge $120 per hour (depending on how clean the system is...) David "Tad Winters" wrote in message news:Xns9950698A064DBstaffordnospamwinter@130.81.64.196... > Tad Winters wrote in > news:Xns994DE1139B7AAstaffordnospamwinter@130.81.64.196: > >> I need someone to rescue an AlphaServer in the Phoenix area. I seem to >> recall someone posting here who was living in that area. >> >> Tad > > Someone spoke for this one, so no need to ask about it now. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 2007 23:04:57 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Who's in the Phoenix area? Message-ID: <5dgk8pF33s9utU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "David Turner, Island Computers" writes: > Rescue? > YOu mean go get it or repair it? David, you must be out of touch with the classic computer jargon. "Rescue" means save from the skip. Hint: I am still looking for a home for a pair of VAX 7000-640's (one with only 3 cpu's, does that make it really a 7000-630? :-) I have put off scrapping them pretty much as long as I can and have contacted everyone I could think of with no luck. Wonder if JF has a big truck and a passport. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.325 ************************