INFO-VAX Wed, 25 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 225 Contents: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Re: CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Re: DCL Magic? Re: F$SYMLINK_ATTRIBUTES ? Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. SSH Problem Re: Still no TFTP client? Re: Still no TFTP client? Stuff in stock Re: Stuff in stock Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists? Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Re: [TCPIP V5.6] Still no TFTP client? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:58:01 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: <5b676$462e7d67$cef89cb2$11166@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3673346 Looks like we'll be going with something a bit more standard - Solaris and Sybase IQ for the next 40+ TB warehouse I implement for a customer. They feel FAR more certain of protection of their investment with what some would say are two 'iffy' companies, than betting on VMS. Too bad. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:03:39 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: John Smith wrote: >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. Hey Mr "John Smith"... welcome back ! And I see we use the same ISP :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:35:25 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: <462EBE6D.81E4EA20@spam.comcast.net> John Smith wrote: > > http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3673346 > > Looks like we'll be going with something a bit more standard - Solaris and > Sybase IQ for the next 40+ TB warehouse I implement for a customer. They > feel FAR more certain of protection of their investment with what some would > say are two 'iffy' companies, than betting on VMS. > > Too bad. Hhmmm... Looks like HP may be trying to address the I64 memory access problem (slow in some large memory / many CPU configurations). It's probably too much to hope for, and much, much too late and many, many hundreds of billions of dollars short, but maybe the technology HP develops for Neoview (see the owner's manual via the link in the article) will trickle down into the OpenVMS space. (Not likely, but as has been noted here before, I *AM* a dreamer...) -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 2007 06:01:20 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: Also not coming soon to a VMS system near you Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:03:39 UTC, JF Mezei wrote: > John Smith wrote: > >> OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. > > > Hey Mr "John Smith"... welcome back ! > > And I see we use the same ISP :-) Ah but is it the same one :) Welcome back John. Was wondering about you just the other week. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:17:06 +0000 From: Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson Subject: CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Message-ID: Hi, As, should probably be very aparent, I'm rather new to VMS, and am playing at doing some programming. Given that I want to create multy-platform utilities and applications, do I want to use the CLD, what I believe is Command Language Definitions or the Foreign Command ... stuff? Are ther any pros and cons I should be aware of? That is, what should influence my decision? I *think* that using the CDL will feel more _native_ than using Foreign Command stuff, but does that matter? To whom? Johann P.S. Slightly unrelated, but; what happens when two installers/administrators do the following at the same time?: $ SET COMMAND/TABLE=SYS$LIBRARY:DCLTABLES.EXE -_$ /OUTPUT=SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DCLTABLES.EXE NEWCOMMAND.CLD I have the feeling this is replacing the DCLTABLES.EXE and can create a race condition? I know I'm probably missing the continuation character, I'm not sure what it is. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:07:46 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: CLD vs. Autamatic Foreign Command; or what the heck do I use? Message-ID: <462e8d8d$0$90262$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: > As, should probably be very aparent, I'm rather new to VMS, and am > playing at doing some programming. Given that I want to create > multy-platform utilities and applications, do I want to use the CLD, > what I believe is Command Language Definitions or the Foreign Command > ... stuff? > > Are ther any pros and cons I should be aware of? That is, what should > influence my decision? I *think* that using the CDL will feel more > _native_ than using Foreign Command stuff, but does that matter? To > whom? I will assume that you with foreign command will use a traditional Unix format switches. For a multi platform app then I think you need to do one of: - use foreign command with Unix style for same interface - use CLD & CLI$ on VMS and getopt on Unix to use native interface on all platforms > P.S. Slightly unrelated, but; what happens when two > installers/administrators do the following at the same time?: > > $ SET COMMAND/TABLE=SYS$LIBRARY:DCLTABLES.EXE -_$ > /OUTPUT=SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]DCLTABLES.EXE NEWCOMMAND.CLD > > I have the feeling this is replacing the DCLTABLES.EXE and can create > a race condition? I know I'm probably missing the continuation > character, I'm not sure what it is. You will get two new versions of DCLTABLES.EXE (remember version numbers !). Whether the highest version will have only one of the new commands or both depends ... Arne PS: I think you have the continuation character ('-'). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:43:36 +0000 From: Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson Subject: Re: DCL Magic? Message-ID: Bob Koehler writes: > In article <00A66925.7CDCDCF9@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >> >> What happens when a program called SYS$SETDDIR() and then drops out to >> DCL where the default was set in the program? > > The same as when they use "set default" instead of the .COM file. > But then I never did like path names taking up 80% of my command > line. zsh has some string manipulation/substitution magic that allows one to truncate a string like path names. That way, you can display only the last n characters of the path name in your terminal title, or prompt. I've forgotten the actual syntax, but can probably dig it out from my .zshrc. Johann ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2007 14:46:50 -0700 From: R Boyd Subject: Re: F$SYMLINK_ATTRIBUTES ? Message-ID: <1177451210.625590.218310@r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 24, 5:42 am, p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: > In a ITRC thread Guy P. wrote about a F$SYMLINK_ATTRIBUTES lexical function: > > http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=... > > To instruct RMS NOT to follow a symbolic > link all that is required is to set > NAML$V_OPEN_SPECIAL in NAML$L_INPUT_FLAGS. > > If this does not work, I suspect you might > have a coding error somewhere. > > * As a start test lexical function > * F$SYMLINK_ATTRIBUTES and see if it works. > * > * F$SYMLINK is identical to F$FILE (same item code, same options) > * but will operate on the symbolic link instead of following it. > * If this works, it will provide a proof that > * your environment is set up correctly. > > Then look at the code and verify you are > setting NAML$L_LONG_RESULT and NAML$L_LONG_EXPAND. > > If it still does not work, please post a small example. > > I haven't got one in my new OpenVMS Alpha V8.3. Is this a betatest, > an Itanium only, or an ECO item? Do you have seen it already? > > TIA > > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER > Network and OpenVMS system specialist > E-mail p...@langstoeger.at > A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist The lexical function is not listed in the HELP LEX choices, but the function is there on 2 of my V8.3 systems. I tested it with a couple of the arguments for F$FILE_ATTRIBUTES and it works just fine. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2007 18:43:33 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <1177465413.376536.313810@t39g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Apr 23, 9:14 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Apr 23, 5:00 am, "Richard Brodie" wrote: > > >>"AEF" wrote in message > > >>news:1177292050.770272.203480@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > >>>Like I've posted twice already, it's "Thou shalt not murder". Capice? > > >>In more modern translations, sure; not in the King James though. > > > So King James is wrong. > > > AEF > > Oh really? Yes. > Some people believe that the King James Version is the ONLY English > translation that may be regarded as "the inerrant Word of God". So? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:50:47 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <462ED017.5090508@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Apr 23, 9:14 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>AEF wrote: >> >>>On Apr 23, 5:00 am, "Richard Brodie" wrote: >> >>>>"AEF" wrote in message >>> >>>>news:1177292050.770272.203480@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >>> >>>>>Like I've posted twice already, it's "Thou shalt not murder". Capice? >>>> >>>>In more modern translations, sure; not in the King James though. >>> >>>So King James is wrong. >> >>>AEF >> >>Oh really? > > > Yes. > > >>Some people believe that the King James Version is the ONLY English >>translation that may be regarded as "the inerrant Word of God". > > > So? > > AEF > So King James can't be wrong! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:51:33 +0200 From: "Rudolf Wingert" Subject: Re: If you live in California, get out now! (Part 2) Message-ID: <002701c786fd$c75e6a90$994614ac@domina.fom> Hello, Genius wrotes: >>> and you will not be in this world when Christ returns if you are not = saved .. you will be in hell ... only those saved will come back and rule = with God on this earth for 1000 years, then God will create a new earth and = those not found in the book of life will be sent to the lake of fire FOREVER = .. <<< Don't be afraid. Genius did not read the Wholy Bible in all details. = This 1000 years will be a presentation of Gods idea of life. Every body will = see how good it is. After that every body will get a second chance to accept Gods law. IMHO, I find this discussion very interesting. But my opinion is that = Jesus did say what will come and what Johannes did see, is written, that if = this causes, you know that this must come, like the labor pains in front of = the birth. Ignore all people who mean to know the time when the end comes, = only the Father knows it, no other one. Best regards R. Wingert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:44:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: David J Dachtera wrote: >> Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers I am currently having to visit a hospital a lot. And I can tell you that there is still a HUGE potential market for computerising hospital records. Amazing how an IT person notices inefficiencies in a hospital and how stuff would be better if properly moved to computers. Consider just a case of a patient moving from a few days stay at emergency ward to a proper room upstairs. Change of doctor, change of nursing staff. And the experience of the ER nurses with that patient is essentially lost and the family is the one who ends up transfering the experience/knowledge to the new staff. And that is within the same hospital. Also, admissions had access to family records and contact numbers, but the nursing staff didn't since they don't have access to those computers. And the next step is inter-hospital/clinic records access. So when a patient is in hospital with high blood pressure as one of the problem areas, the doctors there don't immediatly have access to all the blood pressure readings done in the past elsewhere to provide a baseline of what is "normal" for that person without other infections etc etc. Now, since VMS is on a dead-end platform, it becomes really hard to pitch a VMS based solution for such a great potential customer that really needs it. Especially right after the health care system in quebec suffered a big virus in its windows IT systems. If VMS were on a viable platform today, they could/should pitch it to the quebec government. But HP probably knows very well that it is pointless to try to pitch some IA64 stuff. HP knows IA64 is a liability, and its refusal to admit it will cost it its enterprise customer base as well a growth potential in areas where it would be se easy to make huge sales. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:49:10 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers Message-ID: <6f2fa$462e7b9a$cef8887a$24578@TEKSAVVY.COM> Neil Rieck wrote: > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=operating_systems&articleId=290258&taxonomyId=89&intsrc=kc_top Didn't I hear that Cerner had gotten HP to agree to continue to sell Alpha systems to Cerner customers for a number of years to come ? Cerner could have done us a big favour if it had announced it would not port to Itanium period and that unless HP ported VMS to an industry standard platform, there was no point in porting Cerner,s apps to some failing temporary platform. HP is disgusting in paying Cerner to port to HP-UX instead if getting cerner to recompile its VMS app to that IA64 thing. That 10 billion porting fund was supposed to apply to VMS ISVs just as much as HP-UX and Tandem. Looks like HP is truly letting VMS exist without any strategic investment until VMS becomes unprofitable. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:45:07 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: <462EB2A3.1B6DF9F1@spam.comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > > Some of you may already be aware of this news item. > > OpenVMS Apps Face Uncertain Migration Path > Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=operating_systems&articleId=290258&taxonomyId=89&intsrc=kc_top I posted this comment in the article's forum: ISV Market Confusion? Submitted by David Dachtera on April 24, 2007 - 07:59. The statement attributed to Mike Nill, that Cerner is looking for strong movement toward OpenVMS-I64 in the market-at-large echoes comments to me from an executive at another ISV in the healthcare sector. To me this indicates that the ISVs are confused about where their market is found. To my mind, it would make more sense to first seek direction from the existing installed base which, so far - based on my participation in other discussion groups - is over-whelmingly pro-OpenVMS and shows little or no indication of a desire among the installed base to migrate to another platform, along with all the costs (hardware/software replacement, migration, retraining, etc.) and business disruption that brings with it. The only indication I've seen so far of a desire among the installed base to migrate to another platform seems to come from those sites which are already max.'ing out 16- and 32-CPU Alpha GS1280s. For such sites, I64 SuperDomes just won't cut it. Information is freely available on the 'net showing that I64 SuperDomes are almost 50% slower at memory access than Alpha GS1280s. Thus, with the end of Alpha, HP has nothing competitive to offer in the Enterprise computing space. I've also been told by the ISVs that HP has come to them - at the prompting of the OpenVMS user base - pushing Itanium and UX, not OpenVMS. The trouble there is that since HP has nothing competitive to offer in the Enterprise computing space as we just saw HP becomes "just another UN*X vendor" with nothing to differentiate them in the market. Thus, the incentive to stay with HP is greatly diminished, given that offerings from other vendors outperform Alpha EV7z by almost three to one, while I64 SuperDomes cannot out-perform Alpha EV7z. The market-at-large is not as quick on the uptake of Itanium as with "x86-64" from both Intel and AMD. So, a strong movement toward OpenVMS-I64 in the market-at-large is not likely to materialize anytime soon. This affords the ISVs a chance to cut costs by dropping a platform viewed by the industry as declining. HP's on-going refusal to market their own product (OpenVMS) virtually assures the outcome we are now seeing. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 20:51:15 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers se Message-ID: <462EB413.50C83A2B@spam.comcast.net> Neil Rieck wrote: > > Some of you may already be aware of this news item. > > OpenVMS Apps Face Uncertain Migration Path > Medical software vendor says it won't support OS on Itanium-based servers > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=operating_systems&articleId=290258&taxonomyId=89&intsrc=kc_top http://tinyurl.com/2gzyat -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2007 12:37:28 -0700 From: Rambo Subject: Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Message-ID: <1177443448.175648.185400@u32g2000prd.googlegroups.com> > My compliments on the creative use of the SUN systems as a monitor stand! > :-) Well, in defense of Suns :), I like them too- basically I'm not really fond of "superiority of Easter over X-mas" discussions :-D :-D, though addmittably they score rather low in my "like it" list :). Rambo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:15:24 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: BaxterD@tessco.com wrote in news:1177421789.318012.262500 @r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com: > I have a very complex End-of-Day process which is primarily DCL > scripts. I also have a (very simplistic) error checking job which > examines the process log files for errors. > The biggest nuisance I have to deal with is error and warning > messages generated by general "Delete" and "Purge" commands, (with or > without wildcards), when the target file(s) are not found. > I know that I can get rid of these messages by doing a > conditional delete (i.e. if f$search("filename") .nes. "") or by > turning off messaging, however the first option requires a lot of > extra code to do the condition checking, and the second option is to > generic. > > What would be really nice would be a qualifier which would allow > this to be turned of selectively, and stop the program from generating > the messages. I am thinking of something like > > $ Delete/Suppress > > which would suppress any errors or warnings for that specific command > execution. /NoSuppress could be the default, and it could be made > available for most DCL commands, but specifically (to meet my needs) > for Delete and Purge. > > Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) > > Dave. > So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the purge or delete because of file protection? It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass the file name (and other parameters), which could include a check for file existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. Tad ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2007 18:40:29 GMT From: Doc Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: BaxterD@tessco.com wrote in news:1177421789.318012.262500 @r30g2000prh.googlegroups.com: > Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) Guy is now with BRUDEN, not with OpenVMS Engineering. Doc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:21:36 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: Tad Winters wrote: > So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the purge or > delete because of file protection? That is different because it is a real error. The original poster just wants a way for DELETE to complete without error messages when there were no files to be deleted. > It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass the file > name (and other parameters), which could include a check for file > existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. How long before someone suggests using DFU ? "You could write a DCL subroutine" could be substituted with "you could write your own operating system with a delete command that works like you want it". It is far better to give DELETE the better functionality than to ask someone to re-invent the wheel from start. (same thing for deleteing directory trees). Yes, DFU exists, but DELETE is the command that is present on all systems and is the natural utility to use to delete files and directories. So might as well make DELETE the one with the proper functionality. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:24:53 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: Doc wrote: >> Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) > > Guy is now with BRUDEN, not with OpenVMS Engineering. Yeah, but perhaps it is just a matter of time before HP outsources VMS engineering to Bruden, at which point Guido gets to play with VMS source again and add all those suggestions to DCL ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:13:45 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: <462E7309.3040607@comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > Tad Winters wrote: > >> So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the >> purge or delete because of file protection? > > > That is different because it is a real error. > > The original poster just wants a way for DELETE to complete without > error messages when there were no files to be deleted. > > > >> It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass the >> file name (and other parameters), which could include a check for file >> existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. > > > How long before someone suggests using DFU ? > > "You could write a DCL subroutine" > > could be substituted with "you could write your own operating system > with a delete command that works like you want it". > > It is far better to give DELETE the better functionality than to ask > someone to re-invent the wheel from start. (same thing for deleteing > directory trees). Yes, DFU exists, but DELETE is the command that is > present on all systems and is the natural utility to use to delete files > and directories. So might as well make DELETE the one with the proper > functionality. The functionality requested is not something that most people need. To what extent should precious VMS Developer resources be devoted to meeting this unique need? When you consider that this functionality could be obtained by writing a few lines of DCL. . . . If the OP can't "roll his own" I'll be delighted to do it for him for a moderately outrageous fee! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:50:37 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >> Tad Winters wrote: >> >>> So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the >>> purge or delete because of file protection? >> >> >> >> That is different because it is a real error. >> >> The original poster just wants a way for DELETE to complete without >> error messages when there were no files to be deleted. >> >> >> >>> It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass the >>> file name (and other parameters), which could include a check for >>> file existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. >> >> >> >> How long before someone suggests using DFU ? >> >> "You could write a DCL subroutine" >> >> could be substituted with "you could write your own operating system >> with a delete command that works like you want it". >> >> It is far better to give DELETE the better functionality than to ask >> someone to re-invent the wheel from start. (same thing for deleteing >> directory trees). Yes, DFU exists, but DELETE is the command that is >> present on all systems and is the natural utility to use to delete >> files and directories. So might as well make DELETE the one with the >> proper functionality. > > > The functionality requested is not something that most people need. ...In the sense that I filed an SPR about it in 1977, and have been working around it ever since... To > what extent should precious VMS Developer resources be devoted to > meeting this unique need? When you consider that this functionality > could be obtained by writing a few lines of DCL. . . . > A) 1 meeting to decide what the qualifier should be, whether the same issue applies to other DCL commands, how it should handle the edge cases (file exists, but is invisible because the directory it resides in is inaccessible, etc., etc.), 1 developer a few hours to actually implement and test it, several QA people making sure it works, a few hours for a tech writer to document it (DCL manual, online help, release notes), someone to review the docs to verify it actually describes what the new qualifier does. B) On the other hand, many (we hope!!!) newbies asking why they get an error trying to delete a file that doesn't exist, a zillion (we hope!!!) customers creating a "few lines of DCL" to work around it, lots of long usenet discussions about whether or not HP should waste precious developer resources fixing a trivial issue. Which do you choose, A or B? Which will HP choose? :-) > If the OP can't "roll his own" I'll be delighted to do it for him for a > moderately outrageous fee! > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 22:03:11 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: <462EB6DF.5080608@comcast.net> John Santos wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> JF Mezei wrote: >> >>> Tad Winters wrote: >>> >>>> So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the >>>> purge or delete because of file protection? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> That is different because it is a real error. >>> >>> The original poster just wants a way for DELETE to complete without >>> error messages when there were no files to be deleted. >>> >>> >>> >>>> It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass >>>> the file name (and other parameters), which could include a check >>>> for file existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> How long before someone suggests using DFU ? >>> >>> "You could write a DCL subroutine" >>> >>> could be substituted with "you could write your own operating system >>> with a delete command that works like you want it". >>> >>> It is far better to give DELETE the better functionality than to ask >>> someone to re-invent the wheel from start. (same thing for deleteing >>> directory trees). Yes, DFU exists, but DELETE is the command that is >>> present on all systems and is the natural utility to use to delete >>> files and directories. So might as well make DELETE the one with the >>> proper functionality. >> >> >> >> The functionality requested is not something that most people need. > > > ...In the sense that I filed an SPR about it in 1977, and have been working > around it ever since... > > To > >> what extent should precious VMS Developer resources be devoted to >> meeting this unique need? When you consider that this functionality >> could be obtained by writing a few lines of DCL. . . . >> > > A) 1 meeting to decide what the qualifier should be, whether the same issue > applies to other DCL commands, how it should handle the edge cases (file > exists, but is invisible because the directory it resides in is > inaccessible, > etc., etc.), 1 developer a few hours to actually implement and test it, > several QA people making sure it works, a few hours for a tech writer to > document it (DCL manual, online help, release notes), someone to review > the docs to verify it actually describes what the new qualifier does. > > B) On the other hand, many (we hope!!!) newbies asking why they get an > error > trying to delete a file that doesn't exist, a zillion (we hope!!!) > customers > creating a "few lines of DCL" to work around it, lots of long usenet > discussions about whether or not HP should waste precious developer > resources fixing a trivial issue. > > Which do you choose, A or B? Which will HP choose? :-) > > >> If the OP can't "roll his own" I'll be delighted to do it for him for >> a moderately outrageous fee! >> > > What do other operating systems do when you attempt to delete a file that does not exist? Solaris gives you an error message. Linux gives you an error message and ISTR that MSDOS gave you an error message. Ditto for IRIX. Ditto for RSX11M. This behavior seems to be present in all the operating systems that come to mind except Windows, where it's not possible. People have been living with it for at least the last thirty years. Those who don't like it have either learned to suffer silently or have just quietly written a little code to avoid it. If a file does not exist, there is clearly no reason to delete it! :-) If it's sufficiently urgent to delete a file that may not exist you can either ignore the error message or write a couple of lines of DCL and SIMPLE DCL at that, to test for the existence of the file before attempting to delete it. If you want VMS Engineering to write it for you, I think you will have to make a MUCH better case! ------------------------------ Date: 25 Apr 2007 06:01:19 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:36:29 UTC, BaxterD@tessco.com wrote: > I have a very complex End-of-Day process which is primarily DCL > scripts. I also have a (very simplistic) error checking job which > examines the process log files for errors. > The biggest nuisance I have to deal with is error and warning > messages generated by general "Delete" and "Purge" commands, (with or > without wildcards), when the target file(s) are not found. > I know that I can get rid of these messages by doing a > conditional delete (i.e. if f$search("filename") .nes. "") or by > turning off messaging, however the first option requires a lot of > extra code to do the condition checking, and the second option is to > generic. > > What would be really nice would be a qualifier which would allow > this to be turned of selectively, and stop the program from generating > the messages. I am thinking of something like > > $ Delete/Suppress > > which would suppress any errors or warnings for that specific command > execution. /NoSuppress could be the default, and it could be made > available for most DCL commands, but specifically (to meet my needs) > for Delete and Purge. > > Anyone else like the idea (Are you listening Guy Peleg!!) I just save, switch off and restore error reporting around deletes and purges that I _know_ could cause confusing errors. Had there been a ' DEL /NOLOG' I would have used it. This is from memory and probably wrong :- $ message_save = f$environment ("message") $ set mess /nofac /notext /nosev/noid $ delete stuff $ ! optional status checking to catch _unexpected_ errors $ set mess 'message_save' -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:52:46 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: New DCL qualifier suggestion. Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote in news:d68a7$462e5903$cef8887a$17572@TEKSAVVY.COM: > Tad Winters wrote: >> So what would you like it to do in the case you cannot perform the >> purge or delete because of file protection? > > That is different because it is a real error. > > The original poster just wants a way for DELETE to complete without > error messages when there were no files to be deleted. > > > >> It seems like you could write a DCL subroutines to which you pass the >> file name (and other parameters), which could include a check for >> file existance, and which would then perform the purge or delete. > > How long before someone suggests using DFU ? > > "You could write a DCL subroutine" > > could be substituted with "you could write your own operating system > with a delete command that works like you want it". > > It is far better to give DELETE the better functionality than to ask > someone to re-invent the wheel from start. (same thing for deleteing > directory trees). Yes, DFU exists, but DELETE is the command that is > present on all systems and is the natural utility to use to delete > files and directories. So might as well make DELETE the one with the > proper functionality. Make it simple: $ $ call delete_files some_file.log;* $ $ exit $ $ delete_files: subroutine $ if f$search(P1) .nes. "" then exit $ delete 'P1' $ exit $ endsubroutine For something fancier, add parsing in the subroutine to add defaults or to look at the passed file parameter for components, like a version number. Pass additional parameters to the subroutine for before time or since time or some qualifier to be appended literally. Create a separate subroutine for purging or create a single subroutine to which you pass a parameter that says whether you want to delete or purge. Then again, maybe some small group would volunteer as a team to take on the project of making a number of these modifications, test them, and document them. I'm sure signing of a non-disclosure would be required, but just think of the educational benefit. :-^) Tad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:34:46 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: SSH Problem Message-ID: <7dd80f60704241134j7b1b14f8r3241012a3d378197@mail.gmail.com> Today is my first day on the new job and I've been working on a SSH problem that occurred after the machines were rebooted this weekend (building power was shut down). When I first looked at the problem, any SSH connections were dying with privilege problems. It turned out that the SSH process couldn't read certain Oracle procedures it needed. I created ACLs on the files to allow read access. Now the problem is that anyone using a FQDN to connect from a PC cannot get in, but they can get in using the short name. Using a FQDN from another VMS node works fine. This has me stumped. Weird -- the connection works fine from PuTTY using both the short name and the FQDN. It doesn't work from the default terminal emulator being used (e-term32). Environment: OpenVMS 7.3-2, Alphaserver ES40 (not up to date on Patches, last patched in 2005) HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 4 Ken Robinson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:51:04 -0600 From: Mark Berryman Subject: Re: Still no TFTP client? Message-ID: <462dfd3a@mvb.saic.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <462dd4a2@mvb.saic.com>, Mark Berryman writes: >> 1. You know the full filename. >> 2. You are coming from one of the addresses the TFTP server is willing >> to talk to. >> > So security depends on: name obscurity and lack of address spoofing. > IMHO the first is almost as good as password obscurity, but less > resistant to guessing and the latter is just a lack of effort on > the part of a hacker. Not really. Remember, this is in an internal environment where the infrastructure is controlled. Spoofing addresses in this environment is about as close to impossible as one can get since no router on the network will accept a packet with a source address that is not legitimate for the interface the packet is entering. This means, among other things, that the addresses the TFTP server allows for communication with routers are not legitimate for any host and no host can reach the TFTP server trying to spoof one of those addresses. > Of course, that's better than no security. I've seen product which > provide a totaly insecure FTP service. As have I. FTP requires a username and password to be exchanged in the clear. This usually means it is either a legitimate account on the system or anonymous FTP. If the former, you now have credentials that can be used to attack the host using several different methods. If the latter, you have the problem that most anonymous FTP servers are not set up to disallow the ability to get a directory listing. For the type of service under discussion, TFTP can be at least as, and possibly more, secure than FTP. > Show me anybody who attacks "security by obscurity" and I'll wonder > where they publish thier passwords. > >> Therein lies the challenge. Figure out what file(s) you can write to >> and what file(s) you can read from and I lose the bet. Otherwise, the >> claim that TFTP is so insecure that no one should ever use it becomes a >> little silly. (If someone wanted to claim that it should only be used >> carefully, that would be entirely different.) > > So how many file names guesses do I get before the TFTP server goes > into evasion? I think we both know the answer. Not too many, albeit more than just 1 or 2. > This is not meant to be hostile questioning, I just wanted to get the > facts straight and make sure there wasn't some hidden feature of TFTP > I hadn't tripped across. The security features built into TFTP itself are pretty much as I listed in my original message (except that the name translation table can also be used to provide some filename security (to a small extent)). The rest is just standard network security. Mark Berryman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:06:58 GMT From: rdeininger@mindspringdot.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: Still no TFTP client? Message-ID: In article <90732$462e3159$cef8887a$2258@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei wrote: >glen herrmannsfeldt wrote: >> As far as I know, this is done in unix through the chroot() >> system call, which is also used by anonymous ftp. chroot() causes >> the specified directory to be considered the root, > > >On VMS, there is a >(LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE) > > "TCPIP$TFTP_ROOT" = "SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$TFTP_ROOT.]" > >and the TFTP server serves only what is below this. That's NOT true. It will serve anything the TFTP server process can access, if something tells it the specific file & directory. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:38:06 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Stuff in stock Message-ID: <132sjk8b4u0pu0f@news.supernews.com> Qty incoming Alphaserver DS15a roHs compliant with VMS Base and EIP Licenses NEW Qty x Alphaserver ES40 System Model 2 2 x DS25 Systems each with 1Ghz CPU Qty x Alphaserver ES45 Model 2 (any config) Qty x DS10 466 and 617Mhz (any config) Qty x DS10L 466 and 617Mhz (any config) Call or email with your requirements We rent everything that we sell ! David -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner-at-islandco-com (change where appropriate) F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:23:23 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stuff in stock Message-ID: <3b8e8$462e596e$cef8887a$17572@TEKSAVVY.COM> David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > We rent everything that we sell ! How dare you do that ! If you sell me a system, I expect it to come to me, I don't expect you to rent to it someone else :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 10:01:32 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists? Message-ID: Hi Robert, > > V8.2 Alpha is still supported. Fabulous! So then one could be forgiven for thinking that bug-fixes (especially those as simple as "Here's another copy of the 3.5K line DCL command file VMSINSTAL.COM") would be forthcoming? Hell, it works again in 8.3; why can't they just put that version on a patch kit and say here it is? This is my take on what's happened: - 1) Digital employees can't help but get all excited over bullshit concepts such as "seperating Form and Funtion" or providing IT's Holy Grail of a "Truly *NON*-procedural" software installation kit. (Yawn) 2) No real person shares their bollocks enthusiasm, so we are punished by having our Developer's Guide to VMSINSTAL stuffed into the Archived Documents section. 3) No longer content with merely spitting at us as he walks by, some wanker decides that RUN_IMAGE: should actually do an Analyze/Image on the file first (to see if it is really an image?) (to get that warm fuzzy feeling?), but not bother to test it :-( 4) It get's fixed for 8.3 but he won't backport it to 8.2 'cos that famous Digital arrogance tells him that "No one should be using RUN_IMAGE anyway" or "Your code was always broken" or "It's a feature" or "The work around is to upgrade to 8.3" you little shit of a customer! (Move to PCSI before I fart in your general direction, you objectionable little man) Sound about right? All I want to do is, at install time, run a little program that checks the UAF. Is there a bug/patch reference I can pass on to people so that their path through HP support can be smoothed if they are lucky enough to come across this issue? Cheers Richard Maher "Robert Deininger" wrote in message news:rdeininger-2404070858500001@dialup-4.233.173.47.dial1.manchester1.level3.net... > In article , "Richard Maher" > wrote: > > >Hi, > > > >There was/is a bug with VMSINSTAL's Run_Image callback on 8.2 machines that > >exhibited the following symptoms at product installation time: - > > > >* Do you want to purge files replaced by this installation [YES]? > >%ANALYZE-E-OPENIN, error opening MISSING:[MISSING]VMI$NEW.EXE; as input > >-SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available > >%VMSINSTAL-E-INSFAIL, The installation of TIER3A V3.1 has failed. > > > >The problem is that I've just had someone upgrading to 8.2 (Why not 8.3? I > >dunno :-) and the bug appears to still be there :-( > > > >VMS 8.2 is still supported, is it not? Has anyone got a patch reference: > > V8.2 Alpha is still supported. > > V8.2 I64 supported ended Dec. 31, 2006. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:56:55 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Message-ID: <07042412565546_202002DA@antinode.org> From: "Tom Linden" > Haven't played with this before so apologies if this is obvious, but > experimenting, why does following fail on 8.3 > > ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym=3D"SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" > %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found ODS2 disk? Not the most helpful message. (I _said_ the stuff may need a little bit more work.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:52:54 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:56:55 -0700, Steven M. Schweda = = wrote: > From: "Tom Linden" > >> Haven't played with this before so apologies if this is obvious, but >> experimenting, why does following fail on 8.3 >> >> ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym=3D3D"SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" >> %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD >> -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > ODS2 disk? No, ODS5, but shadow set with two dissimilar members > > Not the most helpful message. (I _said_ the stuff may need a littl= e > bit more work.) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 -- = Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:48:56 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: (snip) > Haven't played with this before so apologies if this is obvious, but > experimenting, why does following fail on 8.3 > ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym="SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" > %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found It would seem to be different from ln -s on unix-like systems. Unix makes no check that the target of a symbolic link exists. It is not a requirement for a link, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are uses where the target never did and never will exist. Sounds like a VMS bug to me. -- glen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:12:08 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Message-ID: <07042416120877_202002DA@antinode.org> From: glen herrmannsfeldt > Tom Linden wrote: > [...] > > Haven't played with this before so apologies if this is obvious, but > > experimenting, why does following fail on 8.3 > > > ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym="SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" > > %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD > > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > It would seem to be different from ln -s on unix-like systems. > Unix makes no check that the target of a symbolic link > exists. It is not a requirement for a link, and I wouldn't > be surprised if there are uses where the target never > did and never will exist. Sounds like a VMS bug to me. There's no such requirement on VMS. This bug is not that (potential) bug. td183 $ crea /syml = "any text at all, more or less" link.link td183 $ dir /date link.link, any* Directory USER5:[antinode] LINK.LINK;1 -> any text at all, more or less 24-APR-2007 17:16:33.81 Total of 1 file. First, don't panic. Second, try it before getting too excited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 00:40:13 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: [OpenVMS Alpha V8.3] SET FILE/SYMLINK ? Message-ID: Tom Linden wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:24:13 -0700, Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER > wrote: > >> In article , "Tom Linden" >> writes: >> >>> If not a file, then what? Do you have any interesting examples? >> >> >> GNV install maps the root dirs of all your disks in the >> SYS$COMMON:[GNV] tree >> >> So a F$SEARCH on the system disk (without excluding the mount point) >> could be very interesting for a VMS only aware software/guy ;-) >> > > Haven't played with this before so apologies if this is obvious, but > experimenting, why does following fail on 8.3 > Ahem... It *doesn't* fail on my 8.3 systems. Alpha and Itanium. Works on both... Did you define a symbol for create? ("create/log" seems to work fine, but maybe some other qualifier causes problems?) Or maybe there's something weird with process settings. Do you have a valid default directory? Maybe you've fallen into the JF space-warp, where things that work for everyone else don't work for you? :-) :-) > ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym="SYS$COMMON:[SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" > %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > ODIN> creat xxx.cld/sym="DSA10:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.SYSUPD]CREATE.CLD" > %CREATE-E-SYMLINKERR, error creating symbolic link XXX.CLD > -RMS-E-FNF, file not found > > > -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: 24 Apr 2007 20:53:28 GMT From: Hans Bachner Subject: Re: [TCPIP V5.6] Still no TFTP client? Message-ID: Bill Gunshannon wrote: > TFTP has no usernames or passwords. Why would anyone who has any concern > about security (that's all VMS Admins, right?) agree to run it on their > machine? It's useful for stuff like downloading firmware/configuration data or booting from the network as an alternative to MOP which isn't supported by all possible clients. Hans. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.225 ************************