INFO-VAX Fri, 14 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 617 Contents: Re: AlphaServer 8400 for Trade Re: Emulation Re: Emulation Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Peek&Spy anyone ? Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: VMS, HP and the recession Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Nov 2008 12:24:10 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: AlphaServer 8400 for Trade Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > The VAX is 1 VUP, right? The 8400 must be about 1500. Not a judgement, > just an observation. Actually 1 VUP was defined by the 11/780. Your 11/750 will be somewhat slower, most of the time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 05:37:50 -0800 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Emulation Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:48:19 -0800, Wilm Boerhout = wrote: > Mike Rechtman vaguely mentioned on 14-11-2008 5:36: > >> ave a look at: >> = >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/sri-charon-vax-emulator.pdf?jumpid=3D= reg_R1002_USEN > > Yes, I know about this document. It appears to express the intention o= f = > HP to using the transfer license on CHARON platforms only (and not SIM= H = > for instance). That is not quite how I read it. That document is strictly about = support. It extends the support to HP hardware running Charon VAX emulator, and is = facilitating that by providing a transfer license. > > However, when you actually order a license and read what it says on th= at = > (legally binding) paper document, it is as vague as can be, mumbling = > something about Intel platform. The way I read it, the license documen= t = > gives far mor leeway to other emulation platforms, while not allowing = = > usage at all on an AMD-based server. Ah, you say a lawyer approved the= = > final document? Now I understand... That makes sense. > > /Wilm -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:13:44 -0800 (PST) From: PR Subject: Re: Emulation Message-ID: <6e09600a-7f58-4844-9713-1c13b5d907a2@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Nov 11, 5:26=A0am, "Tim Wilkinson" wrote: > Well tell me how good/bad it is. > > At home I play with simh and have never had a problem. However, my employ= ers > still have a cluster with a pair of 6100 for legacy data and about 4 > interactive users. It is costing us about =A330,000 per annum to maintain= /run. > > They are clustered for resilience but the HSC went down for 1/2 a day las= t > month which is making the internal customer uneasy about reliability. We = did > have a spare HSC but the maintenance company insisted in shipping in part= s > rather than use an unknown controller that had been sat in a store room f= or > 6 years. > > So the customer is asking about moving it all to virtualisation. Guess we > have oversold our VMWare setup. > > First issue is that we should be clear of our legal requirement on data > retention in about 18 months, and the only =A0live app should have been > replaced by then. Therefore it does not make sense to install new dedicat= ed > hardware for 18 months. We do not have sources for the two main legacy > applications and the vendors ceased trading some years ago. Hence I have > suggested to my employers the emulation route, and would guess they would > opt towards a Charon solution as they are still very wary of open source = and > a perceived lack of support and/or problem ownership etc. > > What is the opinion out there in the land of real users, how quick/involv= ed > is it to set up an emulated VAX system? (I know I did it with simh in a > couple of hours and I had not touched VMS for at least 10 years). What so= rt > of host platform is required in the real world? What lessons did the peop= le > who have replaced VAX hardware with emulation learn? and what mistakes? > > I guess if we do opt for an emulation based replacement I would end up be= ing > the PM. and having raised the issue, suggested a potential solution I wou= ld > be keen to avoid egg on my face if reliability/cost of ownership etc. fai= l > to meet expectation. > > We have a history of under estimating project costs/ complexity in order = to > make the transition through mahogany row and I am keen that this is not > another typical =A0project =A0by identifying all risk/costs early. > > Any advice you guys out there can offer would be appreciated. Remember th= is > is very early days. No project has yet been identified/sanctioned etc. Okay, I am weighing in late with this, but you do have some really good options here, most of which are a bit cheaper that running Charon under VMWare. (Virtualization). Note, that running Charon is EMULATION - not virtualization. If you customer wants to virtualize, then under Intel, I would use VMWare ESX. Last I looked, that invoked a hefty license cost just to start. You do not want to run under the less expensive Workstation versions. I can give you plenty of reasons, but for now, just rrust me on that one. : ) HP is pushing Parallels, which is pretty much Windows based, and also carries a hefty license fee. It works, but I have little experience with it. Now, given that, you could then run Charon under Windows under VMWare on a blade or standalone server. You gain a LOT of Disaster Recovery capability that way. You will give up a few processor cycles, but emulating a VAX, you really wont notice. The Charon license will throttle you down in any case. However - there is perhaps a much better way. Less expensive and faster too. Porting from a Vax to Itanium is generally pretty easy, and there are a TON of people who can help you do so at a reasonable cost. (Im not one of them- no time. But there are a lot of people right on this list that could probably do it in one or two *days*. Seriously. ) A RX2660, plus a base VM license will cost you much less than a Charon license and Intel hardware. An Itanium blade, if you have an HP BladeServer, will cost less than that. Now that isn't a virtualized solution, however, supposedly the next version of VMS will virtualize correctly under HP-UX, which again, is NOT expensive, will run on the same server, and give you the same advantages as VMWare under Intel. I believe the virtualization capability is built into HP-UX these days too. No extra cost. Finally, doing that, you can negotiate with your HP rep to get a really good deal. I woudl stay a paycheck that the Itanium route, including the cost of the machine, license, and even hiring someone here to do the port for you, will cost less than the emulate it on Intel route. The benefits are much greater to my way of thinking. Also, purely in my experience, these "just load the emulator, then the software, then run!" types of deals never are as simple as they seem. They work, indeed they even work well, but I bet it won't be a simple load and go operation. Something will go wrong. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, and no migration plan survives contact with reality! -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 00:11:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Bart.Zorn@gmail.com" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: It surprises me that nobody in this thread has mentioned any VAX 9000 or VAX 10000 configurations! I agree that a cluster of a whole lot of 6/7/8000 class machines looks impressive (of course with accompanying lot of HSC and RA storage, and TA/TU tapedrives), but a 9000 is different! In 1998 I had the honor of managing a VAX 9000-210 (the smallest configuration that I know of) and that was impressive! Regards, Bart Zorn On Nov 1, 12:49=A0am, urbancamo wrote: > To anyone listening! > > I was flicking through the VAX Architecture Reference Manual earlier > and it got me wondering about the ratio between physically installed > memory in a VAX setup and the maximum theoretical limit of 4 GB. As > far as I'm aware for VAXen the physical never to close to the virtual. > > I remember when 64MB was an astronomic amount of memory, which was > around the time of the last VAXes, so I'm asking - how much RAM did > you see crammed into the latest or greatest of the VAXen (and what > else was interesting about the setups, for example maximum number of > users, storage etc) > > Or just tell me to get a life ;) > > Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 02:16:41 -0800 (PST) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <86d09772-c640-45c3-b9fb-4356ffb7cc2f@l33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On 13 Nov, 17:35, Keith Parris wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > > In article , moro...@world.std.spaamtrap.co= m > > (Michael Moroney) writes: > >>Not a single system, but I came across comments in the disk shadowing c= ode > >>for a bugfix where a byte field was being treated as a negative number > >>if it exceeded 127. =A0That byte field was the number of nodes in a clu= ster, > >>and it was found by a customer (I think I know who), not internal testi= ng. > > >>Also the test followed a decrement of that field, meaning a node left t= he > >>cluster, so the bug wouldn't have been seen unless there were 129 or > >>more nodes in the cluster at some point. =A0(Supported limit was/is 96) > > > As you point out, there are reasons why that's the supported limit. > > Reasons, but not any good reasons, IMHO. > > The design limit for OpenVMS Clusters was 256 nodes, hence the presence > of all those 8-bit-wide fields in the cluster internals and data structur= es. > > The supported cluster node count has varied over time, with values of > 13, 26, and 42 at various points in time. The supported limit at present > is still 96. That number was based on a bug in $MOUNT/CLUSTER way back > in VMS version 5.2 that caused crashes at above 96 nodes, when C.W. > Hobbs (of Cluster Wide Process Services, or "CWPS" fame) cobbled > together enough systems to test that many. And although that bug has > long since been fixed (5.5-2), the supported number has never been raised= . > > Qualification and test expense, coupled with a lack of customer pressure > for higher supported numbers, is why larger configurations haven't been > supported since then. It's not based on any inability of the product > itself -- any known limits at 96 or 128 nodes (and even one at 224 > nodes) have been removed. > > Perhaps with virtualization it may become practical to economically test > OpenVMS Clusters with as many as 255 nodes. But would that make it a real VMScluster or a virtual one? ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 22:30:55 +1030 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <012d53fb$0$20615$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bart.Zorn@gmail.com wrote: > It surprises me that nobody in this thread has mentioned any VAX 9000 > or VAX 10000 configurations! > > I agree that a cluster of a whole lot of 6/7/8000 class machines looks > impressive (of course with accompanying lot of HSC and RA storage, and > TA/TU tapedrives), but a 9000 is different! > > In 1998 I had the honor of managing a VAX 9000-210 (the smallest > configuration that I know of) and that was impressive! We took delivery of a VAX 9000 420VP 256MB (IIRC), circa 1991. First or second in the southern hemisphere (depending on whose mythology you subscribe to). Vector Processors were USA State Dept munitions grade export at the time. Of course any NVIDIA GPU puts them to shame these days - and COTS! The node name incorporated the acronym JAV - Just Another VAX. It integrated seamlessly into our existing 30-odd node cluster of the time (which eventually grew to some 70-odd VAX and Alpha systems before shrinking back down to our current 2 Alphas). Of course physically it was anything but Just Another VAX! Enormous!! Power-hungry. And a footprint that would put Sasquatch to shame. Impressive in all dimensions. But VMS didn't discriminate. It just ran! Had the 9000 series been delivered five years earlier it would have been an astounding system. By the early nineties it was an anachronism. It was supplemented by a VAX 7000 620 512MB (again IIRC) shortly thereafter. Better performance in a footprint (all-round) that must have been 20% of the 9000. Mind you the early Alphas we took delivery of shortly thereafter were nothing to write home about either. I still have an 9000 MCU and torque-wrench adjusted, inter-backplane 'ribbon' connector in my office bookcase. Of course, at decommissioning the VPs were (ostensibly) returned to mainland USA (a condition of the original license). C'est la vie! > Regards, > > Bart Zorn > > On Nov 1, 12:49 am, urbancamo wrote: >> To anyone listening! >> >> I was flicking through the VAX Architecture Reference Manual earlier >> and it got me wondering about the ratio between physically installed >> memory in a VAX setup and the maximum theoretical limit of 4 GB. As >> far as I'm aware for VAXen the physical never to close to the virtual. >> >> I remember when 64MB was an astronomic amount of memory, which was >> around the time of the last VAXes, so I'm asking - how much RAM did >> you see crammed into the latest or greatest of the VAXen (and what >> else was interesting about the setups, for example maximum number of >> users, storage etc) >> >> Or just tell me to get a life ;) >> >> Mark. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 09:29:02 -0800 (PST) From: Galen Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <3d5de77a-c2dc-4569-b9dd-25b8fede2fbf@u29g2000pro.googlegroups.com> > > It surprises me that nobody in this thread has mentioned any VAX 9000 > or VAX 10000 configurations! > I didn't manage or even use it, but I did see an installation where there were two VAX 9000 systems in a cluster. The details are very foggy since I never really worked with those systems. Actually almost no one ever touched these two systems. They were in a secure and very restricted access area at Onizuka Air Force Base in Sunnyvale. The government put a pile of money into them for a program that got cancelled before it ever really got off the ground, and yet there they sat for at least a couple of years, with DEC Field Service coming in every so often to PM them because the support contract was all prepaid. ISTR at least a few RA60's in that installation, so that they could be removed and locked up when the systems were down--which was pretty much all the time, whenever I was in and out of that area. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:29:26 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Peek&Spy anyone ? Message-ID: <00A829AA.CE439A6C@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Tom Simpson" writes: >You are correct, of course. It was three years ago and things are starting >to get fuzzy already... > >I had not heard of a "WINDOW" feature in the Raxco product before now. If >it was in the version we were using, I certainly would have tried it. I >don't believe it was. It very well could have been an upgrade that we did >not purchase and I was unaware of. Tom, I've been maintaining RaxcoSupport for well over a decade. WINDOW is not somethign new. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:49:37 +0100 From: Jur van der Burg <"lddriver at digiater dot nl"> Subject: Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Message-ID: <491d1f81$0$195$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> Init the disk from vms, watch the error and look at the error log. That may tell you way more than you can get with speculation. Jur. shadoooo wrote: > I acquired two Seagate ST31051N to use it on my VAX boxes. > I used TEST 75 on the MicroVAX 3100, disk erased correctly. Then I > tried to install a VMS 5.5 from > another bootable disk I prepared with STABACKIT, but when it tries to > INIT/MOUNT it, I received a drive fatal error. > I read the ng and found the problem about ARRE ARWE bits, so > downloaded the SCU application, connected the drive to the PC and > disabled these bits. Then I retried with install operation, but it is > the same as before, even with ARRE ARWE disabled. So I tried to > disable also EER (early error recovery) but it's the same. I tried to > mount the disk also on my 4000-100A, but also there no way. I don't > understand why it doesn't work. > Any idea? Maybe I need to redo TEST75 after the bit disable operation? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: shadoooo Subject: Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Message-ID: <0f9a6e5f-1026-4c9c-b379-39c6003c632d@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com> About the size, it's shown as 1.06GB (it should be correct), I hope not too big for the 3100 (should be exactly the upper limit). I tried to INIT the disk without the /SYSTEM flag on the 4000-100A, with no luck. When I did this, immediately I received the "drive fault" error. During the erase process of the TEST 75 (or TEST E1 on the 4000-100A, I received no error and the process went to the end successfully). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:45:56 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Seagate ST31051N on MicroVAX 3100 Message-ID: <000f9175$0$9193$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> shadoooo wrote: > I tried to INIT the disk without the /SYSTEM flag on the 4000-100A, > with no luck. When I did this, immediately I received the "drive > fault" error. Have you tried the ANALYZE/MEDIA command ? (there are qualifiers which allow write/read of the surface, others for non destructive tests). how about MOUNT/FOREIGN ? Is this drive "new" or second hand ? You might wish to check the various jumper settings to make sure all is OK. If you do SHOW DEV dkaxxx:/FULL what does it report ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 06:53:57 -0500 From: Bob Willard Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > >>Not long ago, the EURO was very high compared to the dollar. Did this >>result in a renaissance of VMS, new hires at HP etc? > > > When the USD sank, USA companies saw increased profits due to their > foreign revenus translating into higher numbers when converted to USD. > So this would help delay any staff cuts. > > But with the USD having risen back to more traditional levels, foreign > revenus will drop significantly, and whenever companies show a drop in > profits, there are expections it will respond with some cost cutting > programme. Uh, early in Bush's first term, the FX rate was over 1.15 €/$; it then sank to less than 0.65 €/$ this year. Yes, it has now rebounded to approximately 0.80 €/$, but I would not call that a "traditional level". I'm not happy that Bush's US recession has apparently spread to the rest of the world. And, I'm even less happy with the way the Bush administration has responded to the recession; as I said in a letter/parable to the Boston Globe (published in late September): Once upon a time, our local government decided that too many citizens were getting hurt in bank robberies. So the sheriff asked a pair of experienced bank robbers for advice. The first, Big Ben, said "People are getting hurt because the banks have too many security guards. Fire all the security guards and nobody will get hurt." The second, Hank-the-rich, said "Give me the keys to all of the bank vaults and I'll fix the problem. Trust me." Will the Board of Overseers prevent the sheriff from doing what the bank robbers ask? Will the next sheriff fix the mess? Stay tuned ... Indeed, the banker-directed bailout of the banks has, at least so far, only led to richer banks; the rest of the economy has not been helped. -- Cheers, Bob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2008 07:12:37 -0800 (PST) From: DaveG Subject: Re: VMS, HP and the recession Message-ID: <8bfa5d9f-d14d-4820-9c53-c872bd200fd8@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com> On Nov 13, 2:32=A0pm, JF Mezei wrote: > There seems to be a consensus that a global recession will be rather > severe. > > We all know that many corporations, when faced with numbers below Wall > Street Casino expectations, will revert to announcing cutback in staffing= . > > Any predictions on when HP's sales will start to hurt ? Any chance that > staff cutbacks would decimate VMS engineering, essentially putting VMS > in maintenance mode even if still officially being developped ? > > In recent month, the US dollar has risen sharply against other world > currencies, so foreign revenus , when transfered to USD will be lower > for HP further amplifying the problem. > > Are there serious concerns here, or am I just being paranoid ? To quote a line from the Star Trek Generations movie: Soran (while busy trying to blow up a star) to Picard (trying to stop him) - "Don't you have anything better to do?" ------------------------------ Date: 14 Nov 2008 12:15:59 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Who is left at VMS engineering ? Message-ID: In article <6nti8aFqqchU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > Name them!! I have named them in this forum many, many times. Your feigned ignorance is your problem. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.617 ************************