INFO-VAX Mon, 03 Nov 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 595 Contents: ActiveMQ working but want out of java... Re: cli difference between HSZ50 and HSZ22 Re: cli difference between HSZ50 and HSZ22 Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations Re: Most impressive VAX installations ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:28:11 -0800 (PST) From: christery@gmail.com Subject: ActiveMQ working but want out of java... Message-ID: <26b2c128-597b-40be-8272-dd0934b003d7@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com> Hi Got ActiveMQ 5.1.0 running on OpenVMS 8.3 Can test it with a Windows client and a C# program sending to the VMS machine, (seeing result in the web browser 8161/admin windows) so ActiveMQ is up and running... but an example on doing the same from C/Fortran (not java) was hard to find, havent found it anyway... SO: I havent found any good simple examples on how to send/reveice a simple telegram from OpenVMS/C with ActiveMQ. //CY ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:18:47 +0100 From: "Gorazd Kikelj" Subject: Re: cli difference between HSZ50 and HSZ22 Message-ID: "David Turner, islandco.com" wrote in message news:CMDOk.53693$XT1.35430@bignews5.bellsouth.net... > Customer is limited to SCSI - a specific config with slight leniencies on > disk. > I want to ship him the RA3000 instead of the HSZ50 - newer > But, all I ask is if people have seen a big difference in CLI between the > two or is it a standard language. > > Better would be HSZ80. Newver and no difference on CLI except that it has new features. Use ACS 8.8-4 for it. Better peformance and rock solid. HSZ22 is totaly different. And you need an ups (included) to have a battery backed write back cache. HSZ22 was popular in some cluster configurations. Best, Gorazd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:21:01 +0000 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: cli difference between HSZ50 and HSZ22 Message-ID: <1VCPk.27327$j7.490016@news.indigo.ie> Richard Brodie wrote: > "David Turner, islandco.com" wrote in message > news:tDoOk.53371$XT1.29027@bignews5.bellsouth.net... > >> Is there much difference between the CLI for the HSZ50 and the HSZ22 ?? > > Yes, the HSZ22 doesn't have a supported CLI; there is just the Windows tool > to configure it. You can probably manage it direct if you have the CMD manuals > handy but I doubt it would look anything like a 'real' HSZ controller. You're right. We had an RA3000 and it was a pain to configure. You *have* to use the storageworks software to control it - there is no supported CLI by which you can maintain it through the console (the PC software can speak to the RA3000 via the serial console, but you see the GUI only). If the customer doesn't want to go fiber (HSG80) then I think he would be better off with an RA8000 based on HSZ80 controllers. There are a lot more of them out there, they are faster and more reliable and the CLI is very similar to that of the HSG (don't know about the HSZ50). --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 04:49:02 -0800 (PST) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: On Nov 3, 12:21 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > On Nov 2, 8:50 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > wrote: > >> Michael Kraemer wrote: > >>> H Vlems schrieb: > >>>> On 1 nov, 23:55, Michael Kraemer wrote: > >>>>> H Vlems schrieb: > >>>>>> One of my VAXstation 4000-90A's has 128 MB main memory. Which is its > >>>>>> configuration maximum IIRC. > >>>>> Mine too. And yes, it maxes out at 128MB. But that was > >>>>> an impressive (and expensive) amount of memory back then. > >>>> That is absolutely true Michael, When hardware prices wouldn't have > >>>> come down as they have then we'd all be running SIMH.... > >>> Found a historical quote (as of 1990): > >>> 2x4MB for a VS3176 for close to 3000 DEM (approx $1500 back then). > >>> And that's already the cheaper OEM price, not the original DEC one. > >>> I think VS4000 memory wasn't that much cheaper. > >> DEC could not, or would not, sell anything cheaply! That's one of the > >> many reasons DEC is no more; their competitors could and did sell things > >> cheaper than DEC did. > > > It's not strictly true to say that DEC could not or would not sell > > anything cheaply. Their early stuff was presumably a bargain judging > > by the way it sold, as were VAXes in their heyday. Low end alphas > > towards their end of life weren't priced that badly in hardware terms, > > and if anyone had wanted to build "clone" motherboards at interesting > > prices the technology and support was there for them to do it. > > > But the marketing wasn't there, and nor (courtesy of MS) were the > > apps. The AlphaPowered program had a go but in general it was too > > little too late. > > > Those in HQ had for too long ignored the "you gotta eat your own lunch > > before someone else eats it for you" (?) rule; there was too much > > emphasis from HQ on "upselling" and not enough on retaining (let alone > > growing) market share by being competitively priced feature for > > feature. > > > Yes there were lots of competitors that could and did sell "stuff" > > cheaper than DEC did, but it often wasn't, and often still isn't, > > really comparable "stuff", especially in sectors where VMS was/is > > relevant. > > I'm thinking of the Rainbow that I bought second hand for $900 or so. > New, when they first hit the streets, they were about $5,000.00. IBM > clones were less than half that. DEC wanted about $700.00 US for 256 KB > of memory. I bought third party memory for $30! It worked perfectly! > This was the same box that supposedly could not format its own floppy > disks; something every other PC, PC clone, and McIntosh could do with > ease! DEC sold formatted floppies for $5 US each. I bought mine for > $0.50 each and formatted them using third party software. The 20MB hard > disk was $2200.00 US. I bought brand X (Seagate) for $300 and it worked > perfectly. I could go on for hours but I hope you get the idea; DEC's > prices were nothing sort of highway robbery! > > Then there was the Micro 11/23 that my boss bought for huge bucks. We > bought a hard disk and interface from Emulex because DEC wanted four or > five times what Emulex did. Was the Emulex product just as good? > There's no way to tell, now, twenty years later. It did work and worked > for a couple of years until the boss could afford a VAX 8200. > > At one DECUS symposium I attended, a speaker got a huge laugh by saying; > "I got a phone call from a terrorist last week; of course HE thinks he's > a DEC salesman!" Yeah, some of the prices were ridiculous (though DEC commodity memory eventually arrived vaguely in the land of sanity), but it's still helpful to compare like with like. Rainbow with PC clone isn't quite like with like. Rainbows came out at a time when it wasn't obvious whether CPM or MSDOS was the way forward, and when CPM had a relatively reasonable installed base. Rainbows had a Z80 for CPM and an x86 (well, 8088) for MSDOS. Flexibility? Investment protection? Iirc, PC clones only did MSDOS and not CPM (no Linux back then, though there would soon be Venix/x86 as well as Venix/11 etc). And thus began the never-ending PC upgrade-and-discard cycles we all know (and which some folks love). ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 06:58:26 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , urbancamo writes: > To anyone listening! > > I was flicking through the VAX Architecture Reference Manual earlier > and it got me wondering about the ratio between physically installed > memory in a VAX setup and the maximum theoretical limit of 4 GB. As > far as I'm aware for VAXen the physical never to close to the virtual. Since the 11/780 had a 30 bit backplane and following systems were 20 bit or smaller, most VAXen can't handle more than 30 bits worth of RAM. But eventually the hardware architecture was extended to 32 bits and systems were qualified with a 4GB of RAM. I don't recall which models. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:00:50 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > On Oct 31, 8:15 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: >> urbancamo wrote: >>> To anyone listening! >>> I was flicking through the VAX Architecture Reference Manual earlier >>> and it got me wondering about the ratio between physically installed >>> memory in a VAX setup and the maximum theoretical limit of 4 GB. As >>> far as I'm aware for VAXen the physical never to close to the virtual. >>> I remember when 64MB was an astronomic amount of memory, which was >>> around the time of the last VAXes, so I'm asking - how much RAM did >>> you see crammed into the latest or greatest of the VAXen (and what >>> else was interesting about the setups, for example maximum number of >>> users, storage etc) >>> Or just tell me to get a life ;) >>> Mark. >> I don't know of ANY VAX that actually supported four GB of memory. I >> don't recall the largest VAX memory I ever encountered but I doubt if it >> was more than 128 MB. >> >> RISC processors, such as the Alpha need a great deal more memory for the >> executable code, about four times as much as a VAX. With the Alphas, a >> GB or more was not only reasonable but also possible! But only if you >> were very rich! ;-)- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > We are currently running 3 GB of memory in our AS-DS20e. IIRC, each > gig was $700 which seemed reasonable at the time. One unexpected > surprise is that most of our RMS database is cached in memory. > RAM is a LOT cheaper these days! In the days I was writing about, RAM was anything but cheap; especially if you bought it from DEC. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:02:59 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <3$Pi2bXH8cvU@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <490ca0a7$0$22570$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > At the opposite scale of things... > > I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive to > support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the > MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. > > This was circa 1987. One of our earliest 11/780 had 1MB of RAM, because that was the smallest DEC would sell at the time. I'm not sure if my first 11/780 had 1 or only 1/2 MB, but whatever was the minimum for VAX-11/VMS 1.x is what it had. Anyone have the SPD for 1.x in 1978? ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:07:47 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article <00A82051.B459084E@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > BINGO! There still are sites that have not bothered to port their apps to > Alpha or Itanium. If H-float is needed, I'd wager that a library could be > developed to provide it and, on faster hardware, it may even best perform- > ance on VAX. Did any Alpha ever actually implement X-float? It was in my early Alpha architecture books, fully desribed, but documented as not implemented. Does Itanium do X-float? There were calculations we did on our almighty MV II that were trivial to code up because the Fortran compiler fully supported H-float. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:17:33 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Did you drop an "x" up there? VAX 7xx???? I hope you meant 7000 > because the 700 series VAXen did not have H-floating point! The 11/780 did, as an option. You had to buy both an optional user writeable control store, and the optional microcode to be loaded into it. I remember doing testing on my second 11/780 to see if it was worth it. IIRC, the 11/782 and 11/785 had the same options. I think the 11/750 shipped with the H- and G-float microcode, but I don't recall how it was handled on the 11/730 and 11/725. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:10:35 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article <490e0d30$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > > If I remember correctly then only VAX 7xx, 8xxx and 9xxx implemented > H-floating in HW. VAX 11/780 implemented H-float (and G-float) only in optional microcode. I once had 300,000 lines of code compiled with G float and trapping to the emulator just to get some result comparisons with D-float (which was in the FP780). ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:14:15 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > Funny! I do word processing on a PC with ONLY 1 GB of RAM and only 40 > GB of disk! I don't recall how much "Level X" cache it has; If anyone > cares, it's an HP DC5750 with W/XP SP2. And I recall getting a Mac with a 603e chip. The 603e was designed for laptops but had a major performance problem. So it only shipped On desktops where the problem was solved with a big primary cache. My system shipped with 8MB RAM and 4MB cache. But it still ran faster than the models my friends ordered with the previous chip so they could avoid the 603e performance problem. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:20:36 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > DEC could not, or would not, sell anything cheaply! That's one of the > many reasons DEC is no more; their competitors could and did sell things > cheaper than DEC did. Yeah, right. Just go back the the 1960s and 1970s and compare prices between any DEC PDP-x and IBM 360 series. IBM was not into competing with DEC desktop PDP-8. Granted, the PDP-8 took the whole desktop. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 07:28:13 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > Since the 11/780 had a 30 bit backplane and following systems were > 20 bit or smaller, most VAXen can't handle more than 30 bits worth > of RAM. Typo. That should read "30 bit or smaller". ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 14:36:05 GMT From: Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-Hxe8xooRu9ob@rikki.tavi.co.uk> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:49:02 UTC, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Rainbows came out at a time when it wasn't obvious whether CPM or > MSDOS was the way forward, and when CPM had a relatively reasonable > installed base. Rainbows had a Z80 for CPM and an x86 (well, 8088) for > MSDOS. Flexibility? Investment protection? > > Iirc, PC clones only did MSDOS and not CPM (no Linux back then, though > there would soon be Venix/x86 as well as Venix/11 etc). And thus began > the never-ending PC upgrade-and-discard cycles we all know (and which > some folks love). PCs and PC clones could (and did) run CP/M-86. So, I guess, could the Rainbow. But the Z80 ran CP/M (the 8 bit version), so that was really as a migration path rather than an alternative. A transparent one, too. If CP/M-86 had taken off, it would have 'just run'. At a time when many people bypassed DOS and used BIOS calls (as they had to on the PC), the incompatible BIOS of the Rainbow was a major drawback. Of course, the hardware was *completely* different! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 09:37:10 -0500 From: "John Reagan" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: "Bob Koehler" wrote in message > Did any Alpha ever actually implement X-float? It was in my early > Alpha architecture books, fully desribed, but documented as not > implemented. The Alpha books describe the format of X-floating. There was never any intention of adding instructions to manipulate them that I can remember. They are completely implemented in software (mostly written in Macro-64). > > Does Itanium do X-float? Also in software (Macro-64 parts reimplemented in Itanium assembly). John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:37:25 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> Did you drop an "x" up there? VAX 7xx???? I hope you meant 7000 >> because the 700 series VAXen did not have H-floating point! > > The 11/780 did, as an option. You had to buy both an optional user > writeable control store, and the optional microcode to be loaded into > it. I remember doing testing on my second 11/780 to see if it was > worth it. > > IIRC, the 11/782 and 11/785 had the same options. I think the 11/750 > shipped with the H- and G-float microcode, but I don't recall how > it was handled on the 11/730 and 11/725. > My first VAX was an 11/750. I do not recall it having H-floating point. IIRC it had 32 bit and 64 bit floating point data types and instructions. I was just massively relieved not to have to deal with sixteen or eighteen bit address spaces any longer and didn't get really excited about the floating point since nothing we were doing really needed more than 32 bits. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 09:47:09 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> DEC could not, or would not, sell anything cheaply! That's one of the >> many reasons DEC is no more; their competitors could and did sell things >> cheaper than DEC did. > > Yeah, right. Just go back the the 1960s and 1970s and compare prices > between any DEC PDP-x and IBM 360 series. > > IBM was not into competing with DEC desktop PDP-8. Granted, the > PDP-8 took the whole desktop. > My VAX experience dates from early 1984! Before that, my DEC experience was limited to having seen and touched a PDP-8. I didn't administer or program the PDP-8. By 1984 DEC was charging top dollar for just about everything. Even with a 50% educational discount, their prices were out of sight! Somehow I don't think that the PDP-8 was comparable, in any way, to the IBM System/360! They were both digital computers and there the resemblance ended. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:06:49 -0800 (PST) From: DaveG Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: On Nov 2, 11:21=A0am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] > > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM > > To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations > > > On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei > > wrote: > > > > At the opposite scale of things... > > > > I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive > > to > > > support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the > > > MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. > > > > This was circa 1987. > > > Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! > > Ok, war story time ..:-) > > I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first > DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all > joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of memory? > > Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. > > Now back to the present... > > :-) > > Regards > > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant > HP Services Canada > Voice: 613-254-8911 > Fax: 613-591-4477 > kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > (remove the DOT's and AT) > > OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 10:11:40 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: DaveG wrote: > On Nov 2, 11:21 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] >>> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM >>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations >>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei >>> wrote: >>>> At the opposite scale of things... >>>> I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive >>> to >>>> support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the >>>> MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. >>>> This was circa 1987. >>> Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! >> Ok, war story time ..:-) >> >> I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first >> DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all >> joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of memory? >> >> Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. >> >> Now back to the present... >> >> :-) >> >> Regards >> >> Kerry Main >> Senior Consultant >> HP Services Canada >> Voice: 613-254-8911 >> Fax: 613-591-4477 >> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >> (remove the DOT's and AT) >> >> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads > did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in > its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) > The meeting of Old Farts Anonymous will now come to order! Bang! ORDER! Bang! Bang! BANG! . . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:19:22 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <00A82126.1AC368F7@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >DaveG wrote: >> On Nov 2, 11:21 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] >>>> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM >>>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com >>>> Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations >>>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei >>>> wrote: >>>>> At the opposite scale of things... >>>>> I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive >>>> to >>>>> support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the >>>>> MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. >>>>> This was circa 1987. >>>> Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! >>> Ok, war story time ..:-) >>> >>> I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first >>> DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all >>> joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of memory? >>> >>> Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. >>> >>> Now back to the present... >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Kerry Main >>> Senior Consultant >>> HP Services Canada >>> Voice: 613-254-8911 >>> Fax: 613-591-4477 >>> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom >>> (remove the DOT's and AT) >>> >>> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> >> I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads >> did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in >> its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) >> > >The meeting of Old Farts Anonymous will now come to order! Bang! > >ORDER! Bang! Bang! BANG! . . . . Join AARP: the Association of Antiquated Relics of Programming. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: 3 Nov 2008 15:39:21 GMT From: "Bob Eager" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-OGy5nspjn0OH@rikki.tavi.co.uk> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:06:49 UTC, DaveG wrote: > I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads > did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in > its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) We had a fixed head disk in about 1973, on a PDP-11/20. As I recall, we had to avoid switching it off too often as it wore out the heads (or so we were told). Thought it was a DF32 but it was larger - was rolled out onto TWO DECtapes! -- Bob Eager Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:26:02 -0800 (PST) From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: On 3 Nov, 15:11, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > DaveG wrote: > > On Nov 2, 11:21 am, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: rd...@spamcop.net [mailto:rd...@spamcop.net] > >>> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 3:31 PM > >>> To: Info-...@Mvb.Saic.Com > >>> Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations > >>> On Sat, 1 Nov 2008 18:31:54 UTC, JF Mezei > >>> wrote: > >>>> At the opposite scale of things... > >>>> I ran an all mighty Microvax 2 with 8 megs of RAM and a 154meg drive > >>> to > >>>> support 8 users runing WPS-Plus. The success of the project lead the > >>>> MVII to be upgraded to 16 meg of RAM to support 12 users. > >>>> This was circa 1987. > >>> Impressive, but look back and read what OS/8 was able to do! > >> Ok, war story time ..:-) > > >> I remember carrying a tool bag with a scope and installing the first > >> DF32 disk drive in our area - 32K words of memory. I remember us all > >> joking about what a waste this was as who would ever use 32Kw of memor= y? > > >> Course, at the time, many PDP8's had either a 4K or 8K memory system. > > >> Now back to the present... > > >> :-) > > >> Regards > > >> Kerry Main > >> Senior Consultant > >> HP Services Canada > >> Voice: 613-254-8911 > >> Fax: 613-591-4477 > >> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom > >> (remove the DOT's and AT) > > >> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.- Hide quoted text= - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. =A0Head= s > > did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in > > its time, it was pretty fast. =A0I'm showing my age. =A0So is Kerry. = =A0;-) > > The meeting of Old Farts Anonymous will now come to order! =A0Bang! > > ORDER! Bang! Bang! BANG! . . . .- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - My first user experience was on what were some fairly slow systems at Liverpool Poly. These were upgraded in the summer of 1990 to a VAX 6000-430, then a VAX 6000-510 was added and then a microVAX 3400 for print spooling. God knows how much memory any of those had in them, though they supported the student population without too much problem until an AlphaServer 1000A went in alongside them and the VAXen subsequently retired. First box I managed was a 6000-410 which had about 128MB memory in I think. Biggest one I managed was a VAX 7000-850 with about 512MB or memory in an an SW800 controlled by HSD30s. Then Alphas and later Integrities took over... Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 08:31:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Wilts Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <4d221efb-6af8-4e9a-a740-c63758981292@e38g2000prn.googlegroups.com> The most impressive VAXcluster I've seen was one I had some responsibility for. 6 VAXes, over 3,300 simultaneous users running All-in-1, RDB, and a bunch of over stuff. We even had a screaming solid state disk - 20MB if I remember correctly (mirrored, of course, talking a full rack). We pulled out multiple pallets of SDI cables when we migrated from HSC to HSJ-40 controllers. We had fun stuff like dealing with maximum process count - I remember we maxed it out and DEC had to update VMS to allow a bigger number. I think it was 1024 that we maxed out on. I haven't seen this cluster in nearly 11 years so I don't know what it looks like today, but I do know the cluster is still there -0 I don't know if any Vaxes are there or if they've migrated everything to Alpha. The admin positions are about to be outsourced to HP (EDS) - the existing staff have been offered jobs with EDS. .../Ed Tybalt> write sys$output f$getsyi("cluster_ftime") 30-MAY-1999 07:28:07.05 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:32:01 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <00010d8a$0$26230$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > There were calculations we did on our almighty MV II that were > trivial to code up because the Fortran compiler fully supported > H-float. Out of curiosity, what sort of calculations could H-float do that IEEE floating point can't do ? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 12:40:13 -0500 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <00010f78$0$26272$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Bob Koehler wrote: > Yeah, right. Just go back the the 1960s and 1970s and compare prices > between any DEC PDP-x and IBM 360 series. And therein lies Digital's fatal problem. And it should have known. DEC grew because it was the new kid on the block with lower prices and which IBM didn't take seriously. IBM would still charge an arm and a leg, arguing its software was more sophisticated and for serious applications. DEC was able to capture a huge new market with its lower prices, relegating IBM to large businesses only. In the 1980s, the "PC" and Sun grew in the exact same way: they came in, offered lower prices, and DEC dismissed them as not serious enough for real business and DEC continued to charge a premium for its product. DEC's market shrunk to a handful of customers who still had to buy the overpriced DEC gear and software. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:32:08 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: Bob Eager wrote: > On Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:06:49 UTC, DaveG > wrote: > >> I remember a DF32 we had installed on a PDP-12 back in the 70s. Heads >> did not move, the platter was very large by today's standards, but in >> its time, it was pretty fast. I'm showing my age. So is Kerry. ;-) > > We had a fixed head disk in about 1973, on a PDP-11/20. As I recall, we > had to avoid switching it off too often as it wore out the heads (or so > we were told). Thought it was a DF32 but it was larger - was rolled out > onto TWO DECtapes! > There was a shop on RT 130 just south of Hightstown, NJ where I saw a disk platter that must have been three to four FEET in diameter! Ancient technology of course. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:41:08 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Most impressive VAX installations Message-ID: <-fCdnQtgKIwp2JLUnZ2dnUVZ_tTinZ2d@giganews.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Bob Koehler wrote: > >> Yeah, right. Just go back the the 1960s and 1970s and compare prices >> between any DEC PDP-x and IBM 360 series. > > And therein lies Digital's fatal problem. And it should have known. > > DEC grew because it was the new kid on the block with lower prices and > which IBM didn't take seriously. IBM would still charge an arm and a > leg, arguing its software was more sophisticated and for serious > applications. DEC was able to capture a huge new market with its lower > prices, relegating IBM to large businesses only. > > In the 1980s, the "PC" and Sun grew in the exact same way: they came in, > offered lower prices, and DEC dismissed them as not serious enough for > real business and DEC continued to charge a premium for its product. > DEC's market shrunk to a handful of customers who still had to buy the > overpriced DEC gear and software. There is frequently a great reluctance to change something that works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Suddenly it's 2001 and you've got 1980's technology! Can't compete any longer? Too bad!! Those folks in California are selling workstations for a quarter of what we charge? They can't be any good. . . . Right! Goodbye DEC, hello Sun Microsystems. And Silicon Graphics, and . . . . ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.595 ************************