INFO-VAX Thu, 14 Aug 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 443 Contents: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS DSPP & OpenVMS RE: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Help needed with / confused by AST routine (VAX,COBOL) Re: HP buys EDS Re: Memory Usage NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS problem to backup and delete files Re: problem to backup and delete files Re: problem to backup and delete files Re: problem to backup and delete files Re: problem to backup and delete files Re: problem to backup and delete files VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 04:17:42 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: On Aug 13, 9:22 pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <995d1554-09f0-489d-904b-150a9ed48...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, jferraro writes: > > > > >On Aug 13, 9:17 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > >> samp...@gmail.com wrote: > >> >>>Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > >> >>>To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > >> >>>of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > >> >>>follows. > > >> >>I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > >> >>brandishing bullshit here. > > >> >>I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > >> >>and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > >> > Hey don't shoot the messenger, people were interested in what was in > >> > the presentation, I just relayed that information WITH THE CAVEAT THAT > >> > I DIDN'T TEST IT. They had screenshots of the flaw and source code for > >> > an exploit, based on that I assumed it's genuine even if we haven't > >> > been able to reproduce it. > > >> I too cannot reproduce it but this evening have only an ECOed V8.3 Alpha > >> on which to try. It too failed to fail in any way. Curiously, I just > >> happened to build an off-the-CD V8.3 Alpha only this morning in my > >> workplace (just a pastime unfortunately) and intended to try it there > >> and report tomorrow. Of course it could even be Alpha chip type > >> -specific (fail on an EV56 but not an EV67, etc.) making it more obscure > >> but none-the-less real even if less-than adequately documented. The > >> exploit might be more telling. Thanks for your ongoing reports. > > >> > I'm not trying to scaremonger or stir up shit, in fact I stated in my > >> > original post that neither of these exploits seemed particularly earth > >> > shattering. > > >> > Sampsa > > >> -- > >> Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. > >> Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines > >> Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way > >> The time is gone, the song is over, > >> Thought I'd something more to say. > >> [Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour; The Dark Side of the Moon] > > >$ sh sys > >VMS/VAX V7.3-2 on node WOPR 13-AUG-2008 19:00:07.39 Uptime 372 > >19:22:37 > > > > >$ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > >%DCL-W-TKNOVF, command element is too long - shorten > > That's not a "core dump" or any exploitable issue. That's merely an error > message stating you have exceeded the acceptable command length. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright > notice, disclaimer and quotations. Sorry... that was the point... its *not* a core-dump or exploitation... only posting to remove any doubts from those who may impose the theory on "older" openVMS instances... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:50:13 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <00A7E16A.D8E9ECAF@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Tim E. Sneddon" writes: >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <9781c047-761a-4923-9aab-8c1a32ff7c67@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes: >>>> I would have thought a CLI overflow to have been tried by at least a few >>>> at DEFCON9 because the system automagically created service-rich user >>>> accounts with of course DCL which the hackers were then free to abuse. >>>> >>>> We were not scrutinizing buffers however and any such overflow may in >>>> our case have done nothing harmful (by luck or design). I think it was >>>> version 7.1-? if it makes a difference. Did the gentleman specify any >>>> versions? >>> Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. >>> To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters >>> of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump >>> follows. >> >> I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before >> brandishing bullshit here. >> >> I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction >> and it does NOT produce a "core dump". >> > >This isn't entirely bullshit. I reported it, case number AH800710. > >I saw the original post regarding the "execution of priviledged code" >and was tempted to reply, but I didn't bother. However, I am now :-) > >The issue never allowed execution of priv. code (certainly not as >far as I could see). The issue was simply a miss calculation in the >RECALL ring buffer that resulted in an access violation. This seemed >to coincide with the extension of the DCL command line buffer. Yes, >the process does crash. Yes, it was a pain. However, it happened so >infrequently and never actually did anything serious that I didn't >report it for the first few months. > >The version of VMS is also incorrect. I reported the problem under >OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 in June, 2004. I tried this "reproducer" on V7.3-2 too. Even if it does happen, I do not believe you could do much in terms of executing privileged code, especial- ly with DCL at supervisor mode. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:23:18 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <00b4185c$0$770$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Tim E. Sneddon wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article >> <9781c047-761a-4923-9aab-8c1a32ff7c67@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >> sampsal@gmail.com writes: >> >>>> I would have thought a CLI overflow to have been tried by at least a >>>> few >>>> at DEFCON9 because the system automagically created service-rich user >>>> accounts with of course DCL which the hackers were then free to abuse. >>>> >>>> We were not scrutinizing buffers however and any such overflow may in >>>> our case have done nothing harmful (by luck or design). I think it was >>>> version 7.1-? if it makes a difference. Did the gentleman specify any >>>> versions? >>> >>> Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. >>> To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters >>> of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump >>> follows. >> >> >> I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before >> brandishing bullshit here. >> >> I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction >> and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > > This isn't entirely bullshit. I reported it, case number AH800710. > > I saw the original post regarding the "execution of priviledged code" > and was tempted to reply, but I didn't bother. However, I am now :-) > > The issue never allowed execution of priv. code (certainly not as > far as I could see). The issue was simply a miss calculation in the > RECALL ring buffer that resulted in an access violation. This seemed > to coincide with the extension of the DCL command line buffer. Yes, > the process does crash. Yes, it was a pain. However, it happened so > infrequently and never actually did anything serious that I didn't > report it for the first few months. > > The version of VMS is also incorrect. I reported the problem under > OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 in June, 2004. Little point in me reporting that I couldn't produce anything resembling the (albeit sketchy) description of the 'exploit' on my off-the-CD V8.3 installation. This is a quoted-copy (to help circumvent wrapping) of that test: > $ product show hist > ------------------------------------ ----------- ----------- --- ----------- > PRODUCT KIT TYPE OPERATION VAL DATE > ------------------------------------ ----------- ----------- --- ----------- > CPQ AXPVMS CDSA V2.2-271 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V8.3 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.6 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF_SUPPORT V8.3 Full LP Install (U) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V8.3 Platform Install (U) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.6-9 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > DEC AXPVMS VMS V8.3 Oper System Install (U) 13-AUG-2008 > HP AXPVMS AVAIL_MAN_BASE V8.3 Full LP Install (U) 13-AUG-2008 > HP AXPVMS KERBEROS V3.0-103 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > HP AXPVMS SSL V1.3-281 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > HP AXPVMS TDC_RT V2.2-107 Full LP Install (C) 13-AUG-2008 > ------------------------------------ ----------- ----------- --- ----------- > 11 items found > > $ show cpu/full > > System: WASD, AlphaServer DS20 500 MHz > > SMP execlet = 3 : Disabled : Uniprocessing. > Config tree = None > Primary CPU = 0 > HWRPB CPUs = 2 > Page Size = 8192 > Revision Code = > Serial Number = S391400466 > Default CPU Capabilities: > System: QUORUM RUN > Default Process Capabilities: > System: QUORUM RUN > > CPU 0 State: RUN CPUDB: 81C18000 Handle: * None * > Process: FTA7:SYSTEM PID: 0000045C > Capabilities: > System: PRIMARY QUORUM RUN RAD0 > Slot Context: 84970180 > CPU - State..........: RC, PA, PP, CV, PV, PMV, PL > Type...........: EV6 (21264), Pass 2.3 > Speed..........: 500 Mhz > Variation......: VAX FP, IEEE FP, Primary Eligible > Serial Number..: > Revision.......: > Halt Request...: 0 > Software Comp..: 0.0 > PALCODE - Revision Code..: 1.98-01 > Compatibility..: 79 > Max Shared CPUs: 2 > Memory Space..: Physical = 00000000.00000000 Length = 0 > Scratch Space..: Physical = 00000000.00000000 Length = 0 > Bindings: * None * > Fastpath: > PKC0 > BG0 > Features: > Autostart - Enabled. > Fastpath - Selection enabled as Preferred CPU. > > $ typ test.com > $ write sys$output 79 * 6 + 37 > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*A") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*B") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*C") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*D") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*E") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!79*F") > $ write sys$output f$fao("!37*G") > $ @test.com > 511 > AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA > BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB > CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC > DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD > EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG I then cut and paste the 511 characters (line-by-line) into the CLI and used the cursor keys to no result. > Tim. -- "And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying? There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime." "If you can hear this whispering you are dying." "I never said I was frightened of dying." [Wright; The Dark Side of the Moon] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:43:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: On Aug 14, 3:37 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article <00A7E113.29A29...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >In article <995d1554-09f0-489d-904b-150a9ed48...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, jferraro writes: > >>On Aug 13, 9:17 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > >>> samp...@gmail.com wrote: > >>> >>>Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > >>> >>>To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > >>> >>>of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > >>> >>>follows. > > >>> >>I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > >>> >>brandishing bullshit here. > > >>> >>I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > >>> >>and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > >>> > Hey don't shoot the messenger, people were interested in what was in > >>> > the presentation, I just relayed that information WITH THE CAVEAT THAT > >>> > I DIDN'T TEST IT. They had screenshots of the flaw and source code for > >>> > an exploit, based on that I assumed it's genuine even if we haven't > >>> > been able to reproduce it. > > >>> I too cannot reproduce it but this evening have only an ECOed V8.3 Alpha > >>> on which to try. It too failed to fail in any way. Curiously, I just > >>> happened to build an off-the-CD V8.3 Alpha only this morning in my > >>> workplace (just a pastime unfortunately) and intended to try it there > >>> and report tomorrow. Of course it could even be Alpha chip type > >>> -specific (fail on an EV56 but not an EV67, etc.) making it more obscure > >>> but none-the-less real even if less-than adequately documented. The > >>> exploit might be more telling. Thanks for your ongoing reports. > > >>> > I'm not trying to scaremonger or stir up shit, in fact I stated in my > >>> > original post that neither of these exploits seemed particularly earth > >>> > shattering. > > >>> > Sampsa > > >>> -- > >>> Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. > >>> Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines > >>> Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way > >>> The time is gone, the song is over, > >>> Thought I'd something more to say. > >>> [Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour; The Dark Side of the Moon] > > >>$ sh sys > >>VMS/VAX V7.3-2 on node WOPR 13-AUG-2008 19:00:07.39 Uptime 372 > >>19:22:37 > >> > > >>$ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > >>%DCL-W-TKNOVF, command element is too long - shorten > > >That's not a "core dump" or any exploitable issue. That's merely an error > >message stating you have exceeded the acceptable command length. > > Plus you seem to be trying this out on a VAX 7.3x system when the reported > problem is with Alpha VMS 8.3 > > " > Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > follows. > " > I believe the other problem which was reported which was with Finger > was supposed to occur with VAX systems. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >-- > >VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > >.... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection > >no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) > > >Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside > >of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright > >notice, disclaimer and quotations. David, A "core dump"? I hate to be a bit of a pedant, but do you mean "end of users process and logout" or "system crash". Frankly, a "bug" that causes a user to terminate his own process (which can be done in any number of intended ways) is not a true security vulnerability. A security vulnerability needs to affect other users or the system as a whole. "Suicide" is far different from "murder". - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:48:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <82fc20ae-fe31-4071-a7cc-3cfd677d5ebc@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 14, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > In article , Bob Gezelter writes: > > >On Aug 14, 3:37 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > >> In article <00A7E113.29A29...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > >> >In article <995d1554-09f0-489d-904b-150a9ed48...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, jferraro writes: > >> >>On Aug 13, 9:17 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > >> >>> samp...@gmail.com wrote: > >> >>> >>>Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > >> >>> >>>To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > >> >>> >>>of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > >> >>> >>>follows. > > >> >>> >>I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > >> >>> >>brandishing bullshit here. > > >> >>> >>I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > >> >>> >>and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > >> >>> > Hey don't shoot the messenger, people were interested in what was in > >> >>> > the presentation, I just relayed that information WITH THE CAVEAT THAT > >> >>> > I DIDN'T TEST IT. They had screenshots of the flaw and source code for > >> >>> > an exploit, based on that I assumed it's genuine even if we haven't > >> >>> > been able to reproduce it. > > >> >>> I too cannot reproduce it but this evening have only an ECOed V8.3 Alpha > >> >>> on which to try. It too failed to fail in any way. Curiously, I just > >> >>> happened to build an off-the-CD V8.3 Alpha only this morning in my > >> >>> workplace (just a pastime unfortunately) and intended to try it there > >> >>> and report tomorrow. Of course it could even be Alpha chip type > >> >>> -specific (fail on an EV56 but not an EV67, etc.) making it more obscure > >> >>> but none-the-less real even if less-than adequately documented. The > >> >>> exploit might be more telling. Thanks for your ongoing reports. > > >> >>> > I'm not trying to scaremonger or stir up shit, in fact I stated in my > >> >>> > original post that neither of these exploits seemed particularly earth > >> >>> > shattering. > > >> >>> > Sampsa > > >> >>> -- > >> >>> Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. > >> >>> Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines > >> >>> Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way > >> >>> The time is gone, the song is over, > >> >>> Thought I'd something more to say. > >> >>> [Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour; The Dark Side of the Moon] > > >> >>$ sh sys > >> >>VMS/VAX V7.3-2 on node WOPR 13-AUG-2008 19:00:07.39 Uptime 372 > >> >>19:22:37 > >> >> > > >> >>$ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > >> >>_$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > >> >>%DCL-W-TKNOVF, command element is too long - shorten > > >> >That's not a "core dump" or any exploitable issue. That's merely an error > >> >message stating you have exceeded the acceptable command length. > > >> Plus you seem to be trying this out on a VAX 7.3x system when the reported > >> problem is with Alpha VMS 8.3 > > >> " > >> Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > >> To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > >> of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > >> follows. > >> " > >> I believe the other problem which was reported which was with Finger > >> was supposed to occur with VAX systems. > > >> David Webb > >> Security team leader > >> CCSS > >> Middlesex University > > >> >-- > >> >VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > >> >.... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection > >> >no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) > > >> >Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside > >> >of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright > >> >notice, disclaimer and quotations. > > >David, > > >A "core dump"? I hate to be a bit of a pedant, but do you mean "end of > >users process and logout" or "system crash". > > >Frankly, a "bug" that causes a user to terminate his own process > >(which can be done in any number of intended ways) is not a true > >security vulnerability. A security vulnerability needs to affect > >other users or the system as a whole. > > >"Suicide" is far different from "murder". > > Bob, > > your asking the wrong person. I and a number of others are just responding to > Sampsa's report of VMS vulnerabilities in the Defcon 16 slides. > The initial report from Sampsa said about this bug > > " > 2. A CLI buffer overflow on Alphas. Basically any input over > 511 characters causes an overflow, it seems to be possible to > have a privileged process execute arbitrary code. > " > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >- Bob Gezelter,http://www.rlgsc.com David, My apologies, I apparently clicked on the incorrect entry. I meant the question for Tim Sneddon. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:19:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <76e29b7e-6457-44e2-abea-f26e715eb38e@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Aug 14, 11:05 am, "Tim E. Sneddon" wrote: > Bob Gezelter wrote: > > David, > > > My apologies, I apparently clicked on the incorrect entry. I meant the > > question for Tim Sneddon. > > You'll have to check the quoting again :-) I never said it was > a "core dump". I also said that the problem *didn't* allow the > execution of arbitrary code at priviledge. I just said it was a > pain. I tend to use my up arrow quite a bit. It is annoying > when the process disappears randomly. It's certainly not a > security hole and I never claimed as such. David Webb got it > right when he said people were responding to Sampsa's report. > From what I have read Sampsa was merely passing along the work > of others at the request of readers of this newsgroup. > > As I said, I wasn't even going to reply to it. The alleged > vulnerability was clearly mis-reported crap. However, when everyone > jumped on it and it turned into a big thing I decided to clear > it up. I even went and dug out the details of the regression > test and the case number, so we could finally put this thing > to rest :-) > > Tim. Tim, Thank you for the first hand data. As the late Richard Feynman reported in "Surely You Joking Mr. Feynman", reports citing reports citing reports are unreliable (which is the underlying for the hearsay rules in legal procedures). If we can confirm that the details, perhaps someone should publish the facts (I will do so, if someone can get me the original DEFCON presentation so that I can see what it is). - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:47:52 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: DSPP & OpenVMS Message-ID: <00A7E17B.48A1842E@SendSpamHere.ORG> Save for the yearly nuisance renewals of OpenVMS PAKs and the occasional unreadable email, what benefits do DSPP provide to the OpenVMS community? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 2008 09:02:33 GMT From: burley@Encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) Subject: RE: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Message-ID: <48a3f4a9$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> In article <0bd501c8fda5$72137c90$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP>, "Peter Weaver" writes: >$ monitor process/end="+00:00:03"/inter=1 /'query_string' You should never use (substitute) a query string like this, it's not safe. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:29:20 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Message-ID: <00b419c6$0$20315$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Graham Burley wrote: > In article <0bd501c8fda5$72137c90$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP>, "Peter Weaver" writes: > > >>$ monitor process/end="+00:00:03"/inter=1 /'query_string' > > > You should never use (substitute) a query string like this, it's not safe. Amen! -- Did you see the frightened ones? Did you hear the falling bombs? Did you ever wonder why we had to run for shelter when the promise of a brave new world unfurled beneath a clear blue sky? [Waters; The Wall] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:41:13 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Message-ID: Mark Daniel wrote: > Graham Burley wrote: >> In article <0bd501c8fda5$72137c90$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP>, "Peter Weaver" >> writes: >> >> >>> $ monitor process/end="+00:00:03"/inter=1 /'query_string' >> >> >> You should never use (substitute) a query string like this, it's not >> safe. > Just as an example, what could you enter as "query_string" to make that command unsafe ? Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 2008 15:54:49 GMT From: burley@Encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) Subject: Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Message-ID: <48a45549$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> In article , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= writes: >Just as an example, what could you enter as "query_string" >to make that command unsafe ? nodisplay/record=somefile_that_gets_trashed If the attacker has local access or the ability to place files on the system then an "@someinput" could be inserted into the query string. Whether it's really unsafe depends on the privileges the script account has, or the files it has write access to. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:05:53 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Help needed with / confused by AST routine (VAX,COBOL) Message-ID: <48a465f3$0$6003$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> This is on VAX/VMS 7.3, COBOL 5.7-63 I need to extend some program's functionality and came up with an idea to let an AST routine do periodic reporting. I was brutally ACCVIO'd by the program, and made a small reproducer. I'm sure I don't understand all about AST programming (it's relatively new to me), but why it would fail in exactly this manner baffles me. The real program will have a network listener instead of a DISPLAY/ACCEPT loop, but you'll get the general idea. Also, the MIS area will have really useful data, trust me. The reproducer ACCVIO's in the compute statement marked with two asterisks (**) below. Two questions: - can you reproduce the error? - if yes, can you tell me why it ACCVIOs, and how to avoid it? TIA, Wilm *-------------------------------------------- cut here ----------- identification division. program-id. TESTIMR initial. data division. working-storage section. 01 SS$_NORMAL pic S9(9) comp value external SS$_NORMAL. 01 ASTSERV pic S9(9) comp value external ASTSERV. 01 SYSTAT pic S9(9) comp. 01 TELLER pic 9. 01 MIS external. 02 SOM pic 9(6) occurs 10 times. procedure division. TEST-TIMER section. 00. move zeroes to TELLER, SOM(8). * fire the AST routine once: call "SYS$DCLAST" using by value ASTSERV, omitted, omitted giving SYSTAT if SYSTAT not = SS$_NORMAL call "LIB$STOP" using by value SYSTAT. * schedule the AST routine after defined interval: call "ASTFIRE". 01. display "Getal: " with no advancing accept TELLER if TELLER = zero then go to 02. * suspend AST delivery while adding: call "SYS$SETAST" using by value 0 giving SYSTAT if SYSTAT not = SS$_NORMAL call "LIB$STOP" using by value SYSTAT. compute SOM(8) = SOM(8) + TELLER. (**) * resume AST delivery: call "SYS$SETAST" using by value 1 giving SYSTAT if SYSTAT not = SS$_NORMAL call "LIB$STOP" using by value SYSTAT. go to 01. 02. exit program. end program TESTIMR. / identification division. program-id. ASTFIRE. data division. working-storage section. 01 AMINUTE pic X(13) value "0 00:00:10.00". 01 BMINUTE pic S9(11) comp. 01 SYSTAT pic S9(9) comp. 01 SS$_NORMAL pic S9(9) comp value external SS$_NORMAL. 01 ASTSERV pic S9(9) comp value external ASTSERV. procedure division. AST-FIRE section. 00. call "SYS$BINTIM" using by descriptor AMINUTE, by reference BMINUTE giving SYSTAT if SYSTAT not = SS$_NORMAL call "LIB$STOP" using by value SYSTAT. call "SYS$SETIMR" using omitted, by reference BMINUTE, by value ASTSERV, omitted, omitted giving SYSTAT if SYSTAT not = SS$_NORMAL call "LIB$STOP" using by value SYSTAT. end program ASTFIRE. / identification division. program-id. ASTSERV. data division. working-storage section. 01 MIS external. 02 SOM pic 9(6) occurs 10 times. procedure division. AST-SERV section. 00. display "Som = ", SOM(8) move zeroes to SOM(8). * reschedule AST call "ASTFIRE". end program ASTSERV. -- Wilm Boerhout Zwolle, NL remove OLD PAINT from return address to reply ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:46:18 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: HP buys EDS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > HP knows that to reach the same size as IBM, it needs to grow its > services business. You must have missed it, but HP passed IBM a year or two ago to become the highest-annual-revenue technology company in the world. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:52:09 +0100 From: baldrick Subject: Re: Memory Usage Message-ID: James J. O'Shea wrote: > What is the best way to find out memory usage on an > OpenVMS machine? > > I'm currently using f$getsiy("free_pages") but was > wondering if I could use the MONITOR tool to record a > works worth of data. What command would I use in > that case? Jim, A VMS system will use just as much or just as little memory as you let it based on system parameters and process quotas and the physical resources. Whatever you may observe is, because, Virtual Memory System (get the hint?) is managing the usage of memory versus the demands. The monitoring tools mentioned while yes they do a specific job, are only showing you how the system is reacting under the circumstances, so you need to understand a little more about all the memory regions and how process quotas are determined and put into practice. This is WELL outside the scope of a Usenet response! If you're unfamiliar with system tuning and so on, if there is no performance issue then I would ignore it. Cheers, nic. -- nclews at csc dot com aka Mr. CP Charges "The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place."- DNA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 05:31:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Ingi Subject: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: Hi all I'm working on migrating source code from Alpha to Itanium. The source code is in CMS on a single node Alpha. The new dev-env. Itanium will also be a single node. Both the Alpha and Itanium only have TCP/ IP installed, that is NO DECnet and that is not an option either (at least for now). I've been trying to NFS export the source-code-disk from the Alpha and mounting it on the Itanium. The TCP/IP Services versions are: HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.5 - ECO 1 on an AlphaServer ES45 Model 2 running OpenVMS V8.2 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 - ECO 2 on an HP rx1620 (1.60GHz/3.0MB) running OpenVMS E8.3-1H1 On the Alpha I have the source-code disk mapped as '/src' and exported to the Itanium only. Pathname Logical File System /src ALPHA$DKB2: File System Host name /src ia64.somedomain I have a NFS proxy for my user and the system account as: VMS User_name Type User_ID Group_ID Host_name USER OND 40 2 ia64.somedomain SYSTEM OND 1 4 ia64.somedomain I only have proxies setup on the Alpha, it is sometimes mentioned in the documentation that proxies should be set up on the NFS-client side as well, but I haven't figured out why that should be neccessary. Both the NFS and PORTMAPPER server components are started on the Alpha and on the Itanium only the NFS Client client component is started. I'm mounting the source-code-disk using the following command: $tcpip mount src: src src: /path="/src" /host=alpha /structure=5 / system OPCOM says: %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 14-AUG-2008 13:58:59.15 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=40 gid=2 host_name = ia64.somedomain Now to my questions. 1) How can I get the same 'logical'/diskname on the client instead of new DNFSn: at every mount ? (I've tried /PROCESSOR=SAME:DNFS20 without success) 2) Has anyone similar setup and is will to share setup hints etc ? 3) I've also been trying to mount the disk onto Linux but I always get the 'permission' denied when accessing the mount. The mountpoint on Linux looks like: 'drwxr-x--x 2 nobody nogroup 512 2008-08-14 13:07 src/' I have had a proxy setup for my Linux user but the 'uid' has always showed up as 0 in OPCOM. %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 13-AUG-2008 19:47:56.98 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=0 gid=1002 host_name = linux.somedomain USER OND 1001 1002 linux.somedomain From /etc/fstab alpha:/src /mnt/alpha/src nfs rw,user,rsize=8192,wsize=8192,nolock,proto=udp,hard,intr,nfsvers=3 0 0 Has anyone a workaround for that ? 4) I've been reading chapter 22 (NFS Server) and chapter 23 (NFS Client) atleast a dozen times, but I dont seem to be able to understand the 'noproxy_id/noproxy_gid' stuff. I someone willing to share some light on that. Regards - Ingi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:35:02 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: Ingi wrote: > Hi all > > I'm working on migrating source code from Alpha to Itanium. The > source code is in CMS on a single node Alpha. The new dev-env. Itanium > will also be a single node. Both the Alpha and Itanium only have TCP/ > IP installed, that is NO DECnet and that is not an option either (at > least for now). > > I've been trying to NFS export the source-code-disk from the Alpha > and mounting it on the Itanium. The TCP/IP Services versions are: > > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.5 - ECO 1 > on an AlphaServer ES45 Model 2 running OpenVMS V8.2 > > HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 - > ECO 2 > on an HP rx1620 (1.60GHz/3.0MB) running OpenVMS E8.3-1H1 > > On the Alpha I have the source-code disk mapped as '/src' and > exported to the Itanium only. > > Pathname Logical File System > /src ALPHA$DKB2: > > File System Host name > /src ia64.somedomain > > I have a NFS proxy for my user and the system account as: > VMS User_name Type User_ID Group_ID Host_name > > USER OND 40 2 ia64.somedomain > SYSTEM OND 1 4 ia64.somedomain > > I only have proxies setup on the Alpha, it is sometimes mentioned in > the documentation that proxies should be set up on the NFS-client side > as well, but I haven't figured out why that should be neccessary. Both > the NFS and PORTMAPPER server components are started on the Alpha and > on the Itanium only the NFS Client client component is started. > > I'm mounting the source-code-disk using the following command: > $tcpip mount src: src src: /path="/src" /host=alpha /structure=5 / > system > > OPCOM says: > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 14-AUG-2008 13:58:59.15 %%%%%%%%%%% > Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA > %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src > -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=40 gid=2 host_name = ia64.somedomain > > Now to my questions. > > 1) How can I get the same 'logical'/diskname on the client instead > of new DNFSn: at every mount ? (I've tried /PROCESSOR=SAME:DNFS20 > without success) > > 2) Has anyone similar setup and is will to share setup hints etc ? > > 3) I've also been trying to mount the disk onto Linux but I always > get the 'permission' denied when accessing the mount. The mountpoint > on Linux looks like: > 'drwxr-x--x 2 nobody nogroup 512 2008-08-14 13:07 src/' > > I have had a proxy setup for my Linux user but the 'uid' has always > showed up as 0 in OPCOM. > > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 13-AUG-2008 19:47:56.98 %%%%%%%%%%% > Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA > %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src > -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=0 gid=1002 host_name = linux.somedomain > > USER OND 1001 1002 > linux.somedomain > > From /etc/fstab > alpha:/src /mnt/alpha/src nfs > rw,user,rsize=8192,wsize=8192,nolock,proto=udp,hard,intr,nfsvers=3 0 0 > > Has anyone a workaround for that ? > > 4) I've been reading chapter 22 (NFS Server) and chapter 23 (NFS > Client) atleast a dozen times, but I dont seem to be able to > understand the 'noproxy_id/noproxy_gid' stuff. I someone willing to > share some light on that. > > Regards > - Ingi > > Maybe it's better if you tell us *why* you need this NFS setup. Is it just during he migration period ? Then you could make a plain copy (BACKUP/ZIP/FTP), setup your I64 environment and make a final copy when you "switch". Or are you going to develop for both platforms using the same sources ? Then I guess that a "real" cluster setup will give you much better functionality then NFS. Or maybe you need to run the migration and new Alpha development concurently ? Then I guess that a cluster setup still is the best way. Note that NFS lacks a lot whan it comes to e.g. locking. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:59:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ingi Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: <305337c0-16c2-469d-9a3e-7791baf000f0@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Aug 14, 3:35=A0pm, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > Ingi wrote: > > Hi all > > > =A0 I'm working on migrating source code from Alpha to Itanium. The > > source code is in CMS on a single node Alpha. The new dev-env. Itanium > > will also be a single node. Both the Alpha and Itanium only have TCP/ > > IP installed, that is NO DECnet and that is not an option either (at > > least for now). > > > =A0 I've been trying to NFS export the source-code-disk from the Alpha > > and mounting it on the Itanium. The TCP/IP Services versions are: > > > =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.5 - ECO 1 > > =A0 on an AlphaServer ES45 Model 2 running OpenVMS V8.2 > > > =A0 HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Industry Standard 64 Version V5.6 - > > ECO 2 > > =A0 on an HP rx1620 =A0(1.60GHz/3.0MB) running OpenVMS E8.3-1H1 > > > =A0 On the Alpha I have the source-code disk mapped as '/src' and > > exported to the Itanium only. > > > =A0 Pathname =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0Logical File System > > =A0 /src =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ALPHA$DKB2: > > > =A0 File System =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= Host name > > =A0 /src =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0ia64.somedomain > > > =A0 I have a NFS proxy for my user and the system account as: > > =A0 VMS User_name =A0 =A0 Type =A0 =A0 =A0User_ID =A0 =A0Group_ID =A0 H= ost_name > > > =A0 USER =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OND =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A040 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 2 =A0 ia64.somedomain > > =A0 SYSTEM =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OND =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 4 =A0 =A0ia64.somedomain > > > =A0 I only have proxies setup on the Alpha, it is sometimes mentioned i= n > > the documentation that proxies should be set up on the NFS-client side > > as well, but I haven't figured out why that should be neccessary. Both > > the NFS and PORTMAPPER server components are started on the Alpha and > > on the Itanium only the NFS Client client component is started. > > > =A0 I'm mounting the source-code-disk using the following command: > > =A0 $tcpip mount src: src src: /path=3D"/src" /host=3Dalpha /structure= =3D5 / > > system > > > =A0 OPCOM says: > > %%%%%%%%%%% =A0OPCOM =A014-AUG-2008 13:58:59.15 =A0%%%%%%%%%%% > > Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA > > %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src > > -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=3D40 gid=3D2 host_name =3D ia64.somedomain > > > =A0 Now to my questions. > > > =A0 1) How can I get the same 'logical'/diskname on the client instead > > of new DNFSn: at every mount ? (I've tried /PROCESSOR=3DSAME:DNFS20 > > without success) > > > =A0 2) Has anyone similar setup and is will to share setup hints etc ? > > > =A0 3) I've also been trying to mount the disk onto Linux but I always > > get the 'permission' denied when accessing the mount. The mountpoint > > on Linux looks like: > > =A0 'drwxr-x--x 2 nobody nogroup 512 2008-08-14 13:07 src/' > > > =A0 I have had a proxy setup for my Linux user but the 'uid' has always > > showed up as 0 in OPCOM. > > > %%%%%%%%%%% =A0OPCOM =A013-AUG-2008 19:47:56.98 =A0%%%%%%%%%%% > > Message from user TCPIP$NFS on ALPHA > > %TCPIP-S-NFS_MNTSUC, mounted file system /src > > -TCPIP-S-NFS_CLIENT, uid=3D0 gid=3D1002 host_name =3D linux.somedomain > > > =A0 USER =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0OND =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A01001 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 1002 > > linux.somedomain > > > =A0 From /etc/fstab > > alpha:/src /mnt/alpha/src nfs > > rw,user,rsize=3D8192,wsize=3D8192,nolock,proto=3Dudp,hard,intr,nfsvers= =3D3 0 0 > > > =A0 Has anyone a workaround for that ? > > > =A0 4) I've been reading chapter 22 (NFS Server) and chapter 23 (NFS > > Client) atleast a dozen times, but I dont seem to be able to > > understand the 'noproxy_id/noproxy_gid' stuff. I someone willing to > > share some light on that. > > > =A0 Regards > > - Ingi > > Maybe it's better if you tell us *why* you need this NFS setup. > > Is it just during he migration period ? Then you could > make a plain copy (BACKUP/ZIP/FTP), setup your I64 > environment and make a final copy when you "switch". > > Or are you going to develop for both platforms using the > same sources ? Then I guess that a "real" cluster setup > will give you much better functionality then NFS. > > Or maybe you need to run the migration and new Alpha > development concurently ? Then I guess that a cluster > setup still is the best way. > > Note that NFS lacks a lot whan it comes to e.g. locking. Hi and thank you for your answer. The reason why I'm looking at NFS is because a DECdfs based solution requires DECnet (please correct me if I'm wrong). The NFS solutions would only be temporary i.e. when migration/porting is complete the Alpha will be decoupled. I guess the migration period will be a maximum of 6 months. Performance of NFS is not critical (yet). I would prefer NFS over 'backup/zip/ftp' but I would more preferably choose DECdfs but again, DECnet is not an option (yet...). Is it possible to run DECdfs over TCP/IP only ? Because the dev-env is a single-node solution, wouldn't clustering be a little overkill ? (it would naturally give us the possibility to add other nodes/disks but then again we dont need that). Looks like I'll be resolving to the 'backup/zip/ftp'. I know that works because people have been doing that for ages... I assume that the NFS server/client in TCP/IP services is more for integration of OpenVMS with *nix environments rather than OpenVMS to OpenVMS. Regards - Ingi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:41:00 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: <48a443ff$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Ingi wrote: >[...snip...] > > The reason why I'm looking at NFS is because a DECdfs based solution > requires DECnet (please correct me if I'm wrong). The NFS solutions > would only be temporary i.e. when migration/porting is complete the > Alpha will be decoupled. I guess the migration period will be a > maximum of 6 months. Performance of NFS is not critical (yet). I would > prefer NFS over 'backup/zip/ftp' but I would more preferably choose > DECdfs but again, DECnet is not an option (yet...). Is it possible to > run DECdfs over TCP/IP only ? No, DECdfs will not run over TCP/IP, but since you are now beginning to mention DECdfs, and you seem to be alluding that you might have the option of DECnet (sometime...), and I'm (perhaps wrongly) assuming that a pure DECnet solution is excluded because of some "network decree", are you aware that you can run DECnet Phase V over TCP/IP ? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:14:37 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: <00A7E187.66AF258E@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <48a443ff$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, "R.A.Omond" writes: >Ingi wrote: > >>[...snip...] >> >> The reason why I'm looking at NFS is because a DECdfs based solution >> requires DECnet (please correct me if I'm wrong). The NFS solutions >> would only be temporary i.e. when migration/porting is complete the >> Alpha will be decoupled. I guess the migration period will be a >> maximum of 6 months. Performance of NFS is not critical (yet). I would >> prefer NFS over 'backup/zip/ftp' but I would more preferably choose >> DECdfs but again, DECnet is not an option (yet...). Is it possible to >> run DECdfs over TCP/IP only ? > >No, DECdfs will not run over TCP/IP, but since you are now beginning >to mention DECdfs, and you seem to be alluding that you might have >the option of DECnet (sometime...), and I'm (perhaps wrongly) >assuming that a pure DECnet solution is excluded because of some >"network decree", are you aware that you can run DECnet Phase V >over TCP/IP ? You beat me to it. That would be the best solution short of clustering the 2 machines and serving the drive(s). -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:55:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Ingi Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: <7be0035c-5625-4373-9c2b-f21f55804830@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com> On Aug 14, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <48a443ff$0$90265$14726...@news.sunsite.dk>, "R.A.Omond" writes: > > > > >Ingi wrote: > > >>[...snip...] > > >> =A0 The reason why I'm looking at NFS is because a DECdfs based soluti= on > >> requires DECnet (please correct me if I'm wrong). The NFS solutions > >> would only be temporary i.e. when migration/porting is complete the > >> Alpha will be decoupled. I guess the migration period will be a > >> maximum of 6 months. Performance of NFS is not critical (yet). I would > >> prefer NFS over 'backup/zip/ftp' but I would more preferably choose > >> DECdfs but again, DECnet is not an option (yet...). Is it possible to > >> run DECdfs over TCP/IP only ? > > >No, DECdfs will not run over TCP/IP, but since you are now beginning > >to mention DECdfs, and you seem to be alluding that you might have > >the option of DECnet (sometime...), and I'm (perhaps wrongly) > >assuming that a pure DECnet solution is excluded because of some > >"network decree", are you aware that you can run DECnet Phase V > >over TCP/IP ? > > You beat me to it. =A0That would be the best solution short of clustering > the 2 machines and serving the drive(s). > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TME= SIS(dot)COM > > ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional prote= ction > no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (= NJSC) > > Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. =A0Publication of _this_ usenet article = outside > of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copy= right > notice, disclaimer and quotations. Thank you all for your input. Running DECdfs is not an option. We dont have DECnet (Phase whatever) in production env. so we wont have any DECnet (phase...) anywhere here either. But we're going to create a cluster w. TCP/IP only, that will give us mountable disks between the nodes over the network. We'll also be using 'backup/zip/ftp' so hello DCL here I come, hopefully I will never ever: - forget including a file in the backup - loosing any changes by overwriting locally changed files. :-) I'd appreciate any input/answer/suggestions to questions 3) and 4) in my original post (sorry for it's length). Regards - Ingi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:10:47 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: NFS - OpenVMS to OpenVMS Message-ID: <48a459fa$0$5455$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Ingi wrote: > I only have proxies setup on the Alpha, it is sometimes mentioned in > the documentation that proxies should be set up on the NFS-client side > as well, but I haven't figured out why that should be neccessary. NFS is based on authentication of a group ID and user ID which are "foreign" to VMS, but native to Unix. You need to have the client map a VMS username to a GID and UID so that the client will be sending requests to the server with some GID/UID combination, and the server can then translate that GID/UID combo back into a VMS username based on its proxy database. When the client does not have a proxy, it uses a default UID/GID (can't remember the values right now). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:39:31 -0700 (PDT) From: chewep@gmail.com Subject: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: <99bc26e2-f723-4965-ad87-9a22d8b79455@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com> Dear Sir, I just got a refurbished Tape drive to replace a broken one. When I was doing backup for OpenVMS. The system prompted me something like MKA400 not ready or not mounted. MKA400 is the Tape drive. Secondly, When I wanted to delete archived files. The system prompted me some errors, none of the files were deleted on the system. The error messages are as below. %DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] -RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... -SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... I would very much appreciated if someone can instruct me to solve the above mentioned problems. Thank You. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:59:13 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: In article <99bc26e2-f723-4965-ad87-9a22d8b79455@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, chewep@gmail.com writes: >Dear Sir, > >I just got a refurbished Tape drive to replace a broken one. When I >was doing backup for OpenVMS. The system prompted me something like >MKA400 not ready or not mounted. MKA400 is the Tape drive. > If MKA400 was the name assigned to the old tapedrive make sure that the replacement refurbished tape drive has its unit number set to 4. >Secondly, When I wanted to delete archived files. The system prompted >me some errors, none of the files were deleted on the system. The >error messages are as below. > >%DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] >-RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... >-SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... > If you are deleting a directory tree with something like DEL USER:[username...]*.*;* then you will get this error message because VMS will not delete directories which aren't empty - however the command will have deleted files in those directories. If you rerun the command multiple times it will then delete the directories (The number of times you need to rerun it depends upon how many levels of directories contained within directories you have). David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University > >I would very much appreciated if someone can instruct me to solve the >above mentioned problems. Thank You. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:05:21 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: <7dd80f60808140405k24c8d9b5re77277d9344f5efc@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 6:39 AM, wrote: > Dear Sir, > > I just got a refurbished Tape drive to replace a broken one. When I > was doing backup for OpenVMS. The system prompted me something like > MKA400 not ready or not mounted. MKA400 is the Tape drive. Did you reboot your system after changing the tape drive? > > Secondly, When I wanted to delete archived files. The system prompted > me some errors, none of the files were deleted on the system. The > error messages are as below. > > %DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] > -RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... > -SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... VMS will, normally, not delete a directory that is not empty. To solve the above, make sure that the directory is empty before trying to delete the directory file itself. Please give us more details -- what version of VMS are you running? Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:14:42 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: <48A413A2.5050202@comcast.net> chewep@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Sir, > > I just got a refurbished Tape drive to replace a broken one. When I > was doing backup for OpenVMS. The system prompted me something like > MKA400 not ready or not mounted. MKA400 is the Tape drive. > > Secondly, When I wanted to delete archived files. The system prompted > me some errors, none of the files were deleted on the system. The > error messages are as below. > > %DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] > -RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... > -SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... > > > I would very much appreciated if someone can instruct me to solve the > above mentioned problems. Thank You. I'm assuming that the refurb'd tape drive allows you to set the SCSI ID. The refurb tape drive is probably not set to SCSI ID 4. Try to ask the seller how to set the SCSI ID, or post more details, including tape drive model number, and someone here might be able to help. For the second problem, you need to keep repeating the DELETE command, to delete the directory files that are emptied by the "previous" delete command. Delete does not delete directories "automatically". You seem to be new to the "game". Check out FAQ's and training resources for inexperienced folks. Searching the archives of this newsgroup will bring many helpful pointers. Google Groups maintains an extensive archive. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:51:11 +0100 From: "David Biddulph" Subject: Re: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: <48a41800$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net> wrote in message news:99bc26e2-f723-4965-ad87-9a22d8b79455@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com... > Dear Sir, > > I just got a refurbished Tape drive to replace a broken one. When I > was doing backup for OpenVMS. The system prompted me something like > MKA400 not ready or not mounted. MKA400 is the Tape drive. > > Secondly, When I wanted to delete archived files. The system prompted > me some errors, none of the files were deleted on the system. The > error messages are as below. > > %DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] > -RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... > -SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... > > I would very much appreciated if someone can instruct me to solve the > above mentioned problems. Thank You. As far as the second one is concerned, it is what VMS is telling you. You can't delete a directory file if the directory isn't empty. You need to delete the files within the directory first, then you can delete the directory. -- David Biddulph ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:59:42 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: problem to backup and delete files Message-ID: chewep@gmail.com wrote: > Dear Sir, > > %DELETE-W-FILNOTDELETE , error deleting USER:[.....] > -RMS-E-MKD, ACP could not mark file for deletion .... > -SYSYEM-F-DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty .... > > > I would very much appreciated if someone can instruct me... VMS can help you : $ help /message DIRNOTEMPTY DIRNOTEMPTY, directory file is not empty Facility: SYSTEM, System Services Explanation: The directory you attempted to delete cannot be deleted because it contains files. User Action: Be certain that you want to delete the directory. Then, delete all the files in the directory first. If the directory is corrupt, use the DCL command SET FILE/NODIRECTORY to remove its status as a directory. ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 2008 07:00:32 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Message-ID: In article <48A3639B.20207@comcast.net>, bradhamilton writes: > Simon Clubley wrote: >> In article <97773d08-1c63-4ab1-aee8-607189f82b78@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes: >>> A sensible global hobbyist program could still >>> make VMS truly affordable (currently that doesn't apply in, for >>> example, the UK, where membership of HPUG to get the hobbyist licence >>> is =A350+ ($100+?) per year... may not seem much, but times are hard). >>> >> >> Are free associate memberships in the US DECUS still available, and if so, >> can they still be used to register for a VMS Hobbyist license ? > > Hi Simon, > > You can still use your DECUS membership number to register hobbyist > licenses - the folks at the hobbyist site still honor "old" DECus > numbers. If you need to know what your DECUS number is, log on to > EISNER:: - show process/all will show you your account number, which is > your DECUS number. > > Happy hobbying! > [...] Hello Brad, Oops, my message was obviously unclear, but thanks for taking the time to reply anyway. :-) The implication in my message was that if free associate memberships are still available to new members, and if they are still then passed onto Montagar for hobbyist license processing, then John could become an associate member of Encompass US for free, and get hobbyist licenses that way. I'm also in the UK, and had no problem joining DECUS US as an associate member for free a few years ago and obtaining hobbyist licenses that way. As for me, times change. I still know my membership number, but I don't use VMS at home any more, as most of the infrastructure for the hobbyist stuff that I do these days will not run on VMS, so I've a Unix/Linux home infrastructure these days. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:28:21 +0000 (UTC) From: m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) Subject: Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Message-ID: In article , clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > > As for me, times change. I still know my membership number, but I don't > use VMS at home any more, as most of the infrastructure for the hobbyist > stuff that I do these days will not run on VMS, and how about getting that stuff to run ? > so I've a Unix/Linux > home infrastructure these days. > ------------------------------ Date: 14 Aug 2008 08:22:24 -0500 From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Message-ID: In article , m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > In article , > clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: >> >> As for me, times change. I still know my membership number, but I don't >> use VMS at home any more, as most of the infrastructure for the hobbyist >> stuff that I do these days will not run on VMS, > > and how about getting that stuff to run ? > I've looked at that before in the past and came to the conclusion that it's a major project as there's no point in getting one or two packages working on VMS; I would have to get all the packages working or I would really be no better off than I am now. In other words, the scope of my hobbyist projects is such that I am using a lot of packages on Linux, and I don't have the time to port those tools as well, especially when they are already available on Linux; I would not be spending any actual time on my projects if I went down that route. There's also one other practical problem: I need to be able to power up a laptop outdoors (it's been used as a control station). You can't exactly power up a VMS box in the middle of a field. :-) $ set response/mode=good_natured And don't suggest SIMH. :-) If I have to run a host operating system anyway, then I may as well run my control station software on that host operating system directly. There's also the major problem of making VMS see the various gadgets plugged into the laptop in a SIMH environment. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: VMS Hobbyist licenses, was: Re: OpenVMS in the media Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2:22 pm, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote: > In article , m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes: > > In article , > > clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > > >> As for me, times change. I still know my membership number, but I don't > >> use VMS at home any more, as most of the infrastructure for the hobbyist > >> stuff that I do these days will not run on VMS, > > > and how about getting that stuff to run ? > > I've looked at that before in the past and came to the conclusion that it's > a major project as there's no point in getting one or two packages working > on VMS; I would have to get all the packages working or I would really be > no better off than I am now. > > In other words, the scope of my hobbyist projects is such that I am using > a lot of packages on Linux, and I don't have the time to port those tools > as well, especially when they are already available on Linux; I would not > be spending any actual time on my projects if I went down that route. > > There's also one other practical problem: I need to be able to power up a > laptop outdoors (it's been used as a control station). You can't exactly > power up a VMS box in the middle of a field. :-) > > $ set response/mode=good_natured > > And don't suggest SIMH. :-) > > If I have to run a host operating system anyway, then I may as well run my > control station software on that host operating system directly. There's > also the major problem of making VMS see the various gadgets plugged into > the laptop in a SIMH environment. > > Simon. > > -- > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP > Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world *Assuming* problems such as availability of your time and availability of compatible devices were sorted, then you could (if you were feeling so inclined) look at a Tadpole Alphabook, or its close but differently-packaged relative, an Alpha Multia. Also assuming that you don't need much in the way of compute power. But that only addresses the hardware, the real problem sounds like time available for doing the software, which isn't so easy to fix, and when the underlying software is mostly already out there on x86, what's the home brewer with limited resources supposed to do? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:37:32 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <022189ac-a795-4752-a558-0233fbd39dcc@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com> ***** charles schreef: > Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white letters > on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot > of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that I > got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far if > that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to > 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of > this cheap? > > thanks, > charles..... A 3000 is the white box equivalent of the Alpha Server 800. It can run VMS with a small software modification. For details ; http://home.zonnet.nl/hvlems Hans ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 08:48:34 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <48a3e355$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> H Vlems wrote: > > [...snip...] > > A 3000 is the white box equivalent of the Alpha Server 800. It can run > VMS with a small software modification. > For details ; http://home.zonnet.nl/hvlems > Hans Hans, that's a very impressive list of systems you have. Easily beats my collection ;-) Question: "The system now runs SETI workpackages in nearly the same time as a uniprocessor Digital Server 5305. The 5/533 takes a little more than 8 hours, the 5/500 8.5 hours. The 5/533 processor has 4 MB cache, which the 5/500 does not have and that might explain the difference." Are you saying that you still have SETI running on VMS ? I was under the impression that since the arrival of BOINC this was no longer possible. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <2e34dd94-76ab-4a51-8248-2662b2641104@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On 13 aug, 20:28, "***** charles" wrote: > "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in messagenews:08081308321926_20200492@antinode.info... > > > > > From: "***** charles" > > >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 [snip] > 1. on the front it says DIGITAL Server 3000 and on the back > the model number is FR-K7F4W-AB I haven't been able to > determine if this is supposed to be NT only or not. I am > downloading a Debian Linux install networking cd. I did try > the boot command to the scsi controller and it booted to > NetBSD which will be replaced as soon as I can burn the > Debian cd. From further research I am thinking that this > box might be a 3305 but it does not say that anywhere. It > does have a 500MHz alpha chip in it 21164A-2. The > prompt >>> should indicate that the box is not the NT only > box I have been reading about. > show version gives: > V5.4-U3 March 24 1999 12:39:17 > show pal gives: > VMS PALcode V1.20-3 > OSF PALcode V1.22-5 > show config gives: > slot5 QLogic ISP1020 pka0.7.0.5.0 scsi bus id 7 > dka100.1.0.5.0 Quantum XP34550J > dka400.4.0.5.0 RRD46 scsi cd-rom > slot6 S3 Trio 64/Trio32 > slot7 Intel 82375 Bridge to Bus1, EISA > slot11 DE500-BA Network Con ewa0.0.0.11.0 00-00-F8-08-F4-F3 > If it has a 500MHz cpu then it is a 3305 system (or a 3305R for a rack mountable unit). The disks are SCSI. The lower bay can hold up to four SCA drives and require a disk tray that is unique for the AS800/DS3000 series. The device listing indicates that one slot is now occupied. There are three 5.25 inch slots in the top half of the cabinet. They are wired with 50 pin SCSI-2 connectors. One slot is used by the CDROM drive. > 2. What do most of the people who have one of these things have on them > OS wise? Linux, BSD, OpenVMS, DigitalUnix or whatever? In my case, the system runs VMS V7.3 or Tru64 5.0A. I have two sets of four disks for each OS. Most of the time it runs Tru64 because I never found time to try Tru64 on one of the Digital Server 5305's. If you can get Tru64 there's no need to try Linux imho. > > 3. How do I update to the last BIOS or however you say it in the dec world? > I understand there is a V5.8 out. Go to the HP website and download both the instructions and the firmware kits. http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/firmware/readmes/as800.html Note that there is, no difference in hardware and software between the DS3000 and the AS800. The only difference is the damage done to the white box firmware to prevent them booting VMS or Tru64. A very simple procedure remedies this defect :-) One note however: DEC/HP/Compaq will never service nor support a white box Alpha that runs VMS or Tru64. > > 4. What is the biggest scsi drive I can stick in this thing and just have it > work? > How many of them can I string togetther inside the box? Internally the system can handle up to four SCSI SCA disks, provides you have the trays that are specific (and unique in the DEC world) for this system. The top bays are wired for two disks, so 6 disks in total. Put in another SCSI controller and you can attach as many drives as you like. Max drive size was 36 GB iirc for the SCA slots. > > 5. When looking at stuff and the Internet it is difficulet to tell if what I > am > reading is relevant or not, confused on exactly what the box is. Go to HP, serves, Alpha systems, retired systems and look for documentation and downloads. > > 6. I have been thinking of just setting up a server for "stuff" on my > local net but I am also thinking that the electricity to run this thing > might be a little high vs. a cheap low power x86 clone server. It's more power hungry than an x86 box, otoh it's a lot more fun :-) Hans > > Hope the above helps you help me. > > thanks, > charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:15:49 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <9ce1885c-ce90-40b3-9138-e13b8daff30f@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On 13 aug, 20:32, "***** charles" wrote: > "Mike R" wrote in message > > news:ab1e4e58-9b21-496b-8edd-e637b8ebca72@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 13, 4:15 pm, "***** charles" wrote: > > > Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > > FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > > don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white > > letters > > on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot > > of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that > > I > > got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far > > if > > that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to > > 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of > > this cheap? > > > thanks, > > charles..... > > Have a look athttp://montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm > > Mikehttp://alpha.mike-r.com > > Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better I > could give it a whirl. > > thanks, > charles.... Memory must be installed in sets of 4 identical DIMMs. With a 1 GB memory limit, the system accepts 128 MB DIMMs at most. The other alternative are 16 or 64 MB DIMMs. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: H Vlems Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <7eda1536-9081-41be-8cdb-53650da4a6d7@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On 14 aug, 09:48, "R.A.Omond" wrote: > H Vlems wrote: > > > [...snip...] > > > A 3000 is the white box equivalent of the Alpha Server 800. It can run > > VMS with a small software modification. > > For details ;http://home.zonnet.nl/hvlems > > Hans > > Hans, that's a very impressive list of systems you have. > Easily beats my collection ;-) > > Question: > > "The system now runs SETI workpackages in nearly the same time as a > uniprocessor Digital Server 5305. The 5/533 takes a little more than 8 > hours, the 5/500 8.5 hours. The 5/533 processor has 4 MB cache, which > the 5/500 does not have and that might explain the difference." > > Are you saying that you still have SETI running on VMS ? > I was under the impression that since the arrival of BOINC this was > no longer possible. Roy, that part of the webpage is outdated, there's no support for classic SETI anymore. I tried to get BOINC for VMS but couldn't find it and did not have the time to start fooling around with the code. The AS1200's were not as fast as the latest Intel processors, but my AS1200 and DS3000 kept me in the top 10 of my "day group" (users that started SETI on the same day). For a while because running two Alpha 24x7 is an expensive hobby :-( The collection seems to grow all by itself... Spare parts are my main concern so I'm inclined to accept gifts. Given the build quality of VAX and Alpha systems those spare parts usually boot and work well. I own one AS1000A that stopped working at my place. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:28:11 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: Thanks for the response, I think the "white boxes" were limited to Windows NT. The "blue boxes" were the good ones. later..... wrote in message news:f9944b3f-2e15-49e4-ad09-8d3c95733aae@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 13, 7:28 pm, "***** charles" wrote: >> "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in >> messagenews:08081308321926_20200492@antinode.info... >> >> >> >> > From: "***** charles" >> >> >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 >> >> > What does it _actually_ say on the front? Sounds like one of the >> > "white-box" systems intended for Windows NT (only). >> >> >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and >> >> I >> >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white >> >> letters >> >> on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about >> >> a >> >> lot >> >> of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy >> >> that I >> >> got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that >> >> far >> >> if >> >> that is true. Any other ideas? >> >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/index.html >> > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ >> > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ >> > [...] >> >> > >>>help >> > >>>boot >> >> > http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/ >> >> >> I understand that this machine will go to >> >> 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some >> >> of >> >> this cheap? >> >> > Ebay? >> >> Well, after lots of surfing I was able to determine the following: >> >> 1. on the front it says DIGITAL Server 3000 and on the back >> the model number is FR-K7F4W-AB I haven't been able to >> determine if this is supposed to be NT only or not. I am >> downloading a Debian Linux install networking cd. I did try >> the boot command to the scsi controller and it booted to >> NetBSD which will be replaced as soon as I can burn the >> Debian cd. From further research I am thinking that this >> box might be a 3305 but it does not say that anywhere. It >> does have a 500MHz alpha chip in it 21164A-2. The >> prompt >>> should indicate that the box is not the NT only >> box I have been reading about. >> show version gives: >> V5.4-U3 March 24 1999 12:39:17 >> show pal gives: >> VMS PALcode V1.20-3 >> OSF PALcode V1.22-5 >> show config gives: >> slot5 QLogic ISP1020 pka0.7.0.5.0 scsi bus id 7 >> dka100.1.0.5.0 Quantum >> XP34550J >> dka400.4.0.5.0 RRD46 scsi >> cd-rom >> slot6 S3 Trio 64/Trio32 >> slot7 Intel 82375 Bridge to Bus1, EISA >> slot11 DE500-BA Network Con ewa0.0.0.11.0 00-00-F8-08-F4-F3 >> >> 2. What do most of the people who have one of these things have on them >> OS wise? Linux, BSD, OpenVMS, DigitalUnix or whatever? >> >> 3. How do I update to the last BIOS or however you say it in the dec >> world? >> I understand there is a V5.8 out. >> >> 4. What is the biggest scsi drive I can stick in this thing and just have >> it >> work? >> How many of them can I string togetther inside the box? >> >> 5. When looking at stuff and the Internet it is difficulet to tell if >> what I >> am >> reading is relevant or not, confused on exactly what the box is. >> >> 6. I have been thinking of just setting up a server for "stuff" on my >> local net but I am also thinking that the electricity to run this >> thing >> might be a little high vs. a cheap low power x86 clone server. >> >> Hope the above helps you help me. >> >> thanks, >> charles..... > > You've done a lot of surfing but you're still confused. Am I safe to > assume that means you haven't visited > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/3300/ > ? Links from that page include "Configuration list" which has on it > the very part number you mention (brief description is "500 MHz Alpha > processor, 2MB cache, 128MB ECC memory, 4GB SCSI HDD, Windows NT 4.0 > Server"). There are also links for specifications, documentation, > firmware (not really BIOS but...). > > It's apparently a Digital Server 3305, which were also known as the > AlphaServer 800 for Windows NT. The ones sold for Windows NT came in > Frost White, and those sold (as AlphaServer 800s) for VMS and Unix > came in Top Gun Blue. > > There are detailed specifications linked from the page I mentioned > above. The first and last sets of PDF and Word documents on the > Specifications (ie "Systems and Options Archive") page appear corrupt > (or maybe the server is confused - IIS 5.0???), but some are readable > (eg http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB00P4PF.PDF) > and although there may have been changes in detail and in part numbers > over the life of the product, the basic stuff is likely to have > remained mostly unchanged. The documentation page includes a link to a > ~200-page service guide; if you feel like understanding the innards in > a bit more depth, this is probably worth a read. > > As you've got one, and as it so far seems potentially capable of > running VMS, you probably should run VMS on it. But if you really just > want a simple domestic fileserver, or a basic Linux/BSD/whatever box, > it's probably not an ideal choice and you might be better off finding > it a home with someone with an interest in VMS and then finding > yourself a more appropriate x86 box. > > Note that this is a server-class system with PCI and EISA slots (not > ISA) and ECC memory(true 36bit, not 32bit). In its day, this was a > *good* thing, but today it may make life trickier as the bits will be > rarer. It takes up to 2GB of 60ns/3.3V EDO ECC DIMM ECC memory. I > can't recall what happens if you try 32bit memory but "fake parity" > memory which uses logic to synthesise the parity on reads (rather than > chips to store the parity on writes) will not work. > > Did the system come with the EISA Config Utility on floppy? My vague > recollection is that some weird config-related problems required the > user to run the ECU to update the config info somewhere in the system. > Hopefully that won't be necessary here. Also note that the same > hardware under different OSes (eg WinNT vs VMS) would have different > ECU settings, so even if the system config was right for NT when it > left its last owner, it may by now be wrong for VMS (can that really > be right? It's what I recall...). > > Depending on your aims, you might want to try to get hold of a > slightly better PCI graphics card. I got rid of one not long ago (from > memory it wasn't a VMS-supported one though, there weren't that many > of those around). > > Welcome to the world of VMS, and good luck. Or as they say in the land > of SuSe, "have a lot of fun". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:33:55 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <8%Zok.7852$cn7.7580@flpi145.ffdc.sbc.com> > The only difference is the damage done to the white box firmware to > prevent them booting VMS or Tru64. > A very simple procedure remedies this defect :-) > One note however: DEC/HP/Compaq will never service nor support a white > box Alpha that runs VMS or Tru64. I would be inclined to do this if I could get it to insall/run OpenVMS. When I was in school "a long time ago" the computer science dept. had a vax cluster and I have used VMS before. Might be interesting. If you have the customization procedure to turn a white box into a blue box please point. thanks, charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:36:58 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <%1_ok.7853$cn7.5290@flpi145.ffdc.sbc.com> "Jan-Erik Söderholm" wrote in message news:C_Fok.1698$U5.841@newsb.telia.net... > ***** charles wrote: > >> Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better... > > Define "better" ! When the OS supports the hardware with more drivers, better drivers. I have fooled around with sparc and power and I have found that the Linux side doesn't work with the hardware nearly as well as the unixes that come from the hardware manufacturers themselves. So in this case Solaris and AIX run better and work better with sparc and power systems. later, charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:41:30 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: > If you like it, welcome aboard. If not, please go away quietly! I am not a computer hardware, software or whatever bigot. I use whetever works best for the problem domain. I suspect there are VMS bigots too. It seems at the moment if I can get OpenVMS to install that would be the "best": choice. later, charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:45:06 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: > Memory must be installed in sets of 4 identical DIMMs. > With a 1 GB memory limit, the system accepts 128 MB DIMMs at most. The > other alternative are 16 or 64 MB DIMMs. I would like to put 1G of ram in it but the opportunity cost seems aughfully high. "They" want $35 - $50 for a 32M stick so the 128M sticks must be atrociaous. Any idea where I can get them cheap? Plus I would like 8 of them. thanks, charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:46:26 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: "David" wrote in message news:wgGok.10470$vX2.9219@bignews6.bellsouth.net... >I have some sitting in boxes - 128MB if you want it it's yours if you pay >shipping What a guy, how much would shipping be for 8 to 76059 insured? thanks, charles.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:49:12 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: "Jeff Campbell" wrote in message news:1218665663_733@isp.n... > ***** charles wrote: >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white >> letters on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit >> about a lot of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. >> The guy that I got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to >> get it that far if that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that >> this machine will go to 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know >> where I could get some of this cheap? >> >> thanks, >> charles..... >> >> > Some "white box" Alphas are capable of running OpenVMS. The machines > were marketed to the Windows NT crowd. Since these machines were > competing with PC NT boxes, they had to be priced below what the > equivalent Alphas marketed into the OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX markets were > priced at. To protect the higher margin products the WB Alphas were > sold unable to run the "native" 8-) OSes. > > There are 3 Digital Server variants of AlphaServers: > > AS 800 - DS 330x > AS 1200 - DS 530x > AS 4100 - DS 730x > > There are 2 "consoles" the machines may be set up to power up into. > To boot Windows NT the machine must be set to use the Alphabios console. > To boot OpenVMS the machine must be set to use the SRM console. > > The Alphabios console is a GUI interface PC users are more likely to > be comfortable with. 8-) I like the command line, more powerfull. > The SRM console is text based. The SRM prompt is the ">>>" you noted > above. > > The SRM console user interface is based on a UNIX variant. Things like > "ps" and "more" are available at the ">>>" prompt. Enter "help" at the > ">>>" prompt to see the console commands available. > > You can pipe commands together. Enter "show | more" to see the full > configuration paged. > > There is some information about OpenVMS (and Tru64 UNIX) on WB Alphas > in this newsgroup. Google is your friend. 8-) > > Jeff Putting OpenVMS on this thing is probably what I will try. later, charles..... ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.443 ************************