INFO-VAX Thu, 14 Aug 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 442 Contents: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS RE: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Re: OpenVMS in the media - National Grid Control Centre, Britain from Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:02:36 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <995d1554-09f0-489d-904b-150a9ed48f83@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 13, 9:17 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > samp...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > >>>To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > >>>of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > >>>follows. > > >>I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > >>brandishing bullshit here. > > >>I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > >>and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > > Hey don't shoot the messenger, people were interested in what was in > > the presentation, I just relayed that information WITH THE CAVEAT THAT > > I DIDN'T TEST IT. They had screenshots of the flaw and source code for > > an exploit, based on that I assumed it's genuine even if we haven't > > been able to reproduce it. > > I too cannot reproduce it but this evening have only an ECOed V8.3 Alpha > on which to try. It too failed to fail in any way. Curiously, I just > happened to build an off-the-CD V8.3 Alpha only this morning in my > workplace (just a pastime unfortunately) and intended to try it there > and report tomorrow. Of course it could even be Alpha chip type > -specific (fail on an EV56 but not an EV67, etc.) making it more obscure > but none-the-less real even if less-than adequately documented. The > exploit might be more telling. Thanks for your ongoing reports. > > > I'm not trying to scaremonger or stir up shit, in fact I stated in my > > original post that neither of these exploits seemed particularly earth > > shattering. > > > Sampsa > > -- > Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. > Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines > Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way > The time is gone, the song is over, > Thought I'd something more to say. > [Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour; The Dark Side of the Moon] $ sh sys VMS/VAX V7.3-2 on node WOPR 13-AUG-2008 19:00:07.39 Uptime 372 19:22:37 $ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa %DCL-W-TKNOVF, command element is too long - shorten ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:12:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jferraro Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: On Aug 13, 7:02 pm, jferraro wrote: > On Aug 13, 9:17 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > > > > > samp...@gmail.com wrote: > > >>>Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. > > >>>To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters > > >>>of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump > > >>>follows. > > > >>I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > > >>brandishing bullshit here. > > > >>I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > > >>and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > > > > Hey don't shoot the messenger, people were interested in what was in > > > the presentation, I just relayed that information WITH THE CAVEAT THAT > > > I DIDN'T TEST IT. They had screenshots of the flaw and source code for > > > an exploit, based on that I assumed it's genuine even if we haven't > > > been able to reproduce it. > > > I too cannot reproduce it but this evening have only an ECOed V8.3 Alpha > > on which to try. It too failed to fail in any way. Curiously, I just > > happened to build an off-the-CD V8.3 Alpha only this morning in my > > workplace (just a pastime unfortunately) and intended to try it there > > and report tomorrow. Of course it could even be Alpha chip type > > -specific (fail on an EV56 but not an EV67, etc.) making it more obscure > > but none-the-less real even if less-than adequately documented. The > > exploit might be more telling. Thanks for your ongoing reports. > > > > I'm not trying to scaremonger or stir up shit, in fact I stated in my > > > original post that neither of these exploits seemed particularly earth > > > shattering. > > > > Sampsa > > > -- > > Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. > > Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines > > Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way > > The time is gone, the song is over, > > Thought I'd something more to say. > > [Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour; The Dark Side of the Moon] > > $ sh sys > VMS/VAX V7.3-2 on node WOPR 13-AUG-2008 19:00:07.39 Uptime 372 > 19:22:37 > > > $ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- > _$ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > %DCL-W-TKNOVF, command element is too long - shorte Also tried with elevated and from a com file: Username: system Password: Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) VAX Operating System, Version V7.3-2 Last interactive login on Wednesday, 13-AUG-2008 16:31 $ type test.com;1 $ define test$logical aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa $ exit $ @test.com %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters \AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA\ $ WOPR::SYSTEM 19:11:07 (DCL) CPU=00:00:00.89 PF=1373 IO=312 MEM=260 ~~~ Anything else to try? Batch mode? (perhaps I'm not reading it correctly??!??!?!) Joe Ferraro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 01:42:04 GMT From: "Tim E. Sneddon" Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <9781c047-761a-4923-9aab-8c1a32ff7c67@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes: >>> I would have thought a CLI overflow to have been tried by at least a few >>> at DEFCON9 because the system automagically created service-rich user >>> accounts with of course DCL which the hackers were then free to abuse. >>> >>> We were not scrutinizing buffers however and any such overflow may in >>> our case have done nothing harmful (by luck or design). I think it was >>> version 7.1-? if it makes a difference. Did the gentleman specify any >>> versions? >> Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. >> To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters >> of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump >> follows. > > I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before > brandishing bullshit here. > > I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction > and it does NOT produce a "core dump". > This isn't entirely bullshit. I reported it, case number AH800710. I saw the original post regarding the "execution of priviledged code" and was tempted to reply, but I didn't bother. However, I am now :-) The issue never allowed execution of priv. code (certainly not as far as I could see). The issue was simply a miss calculation in the RECALL ring buffer that resulted in an access violation. This seemed to coincide with the extension of the DCL command line buffer. Yes, the process does crash. Yes, it was a pain. However, it happened so infrequently and never actually did anything serious that I didn't report it for the first few months. The version of VMS is also incorrect. I reported the problem under OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 in June, 2004. Tim. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:10:36 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: DEFCON 16 and Hacking OpenVMS Message-ID: <8660a3a10808132010rb240017x2824e7f512307e5a@mail.gmail.com> ------=_Part_8685_14755097.1218683436347 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Tim E. Sneddon wrote: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> In article < >> 9781c047-761a-4923-9aab-8c1a32ff7c67@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, >> sampsal@gmail.com writes: >> >>> I would have thought a CLI overflow to have been tried by at least a few >>>> at DEFCON9 because the system automagically created service-rich user >>>> accounts with of course DCL which the hackers were then free to abuse. >>>> >>>> We were not scrutinizing buffers however and any such overflow may in >>>> our case have done nothing harmful (by luck or design). I think it was >>>> version 7.1-? if it makes a difference. Did the gentleman specify any >>>> versions? >>>> >>> Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes. >>> To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters >>> of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump >>> follows. >>> >> >> I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before >> brandishing bullshit here. >> >> I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction >> and it does NOT produce a "core dump". >> > > This isn't entirely bullshit. I reported it, case number AH800710. > > I saw the original post regarding the "execution of priviledged code" > and was tempted to reply, but I didn't bother. However, I am now :-) > > The issue never allowed execution of priv. code (certainly not as > far as I could see). The issue was simply a miss calculation in the > RECALL ring buffer that resulted in an access violation. This seemed > to coincide with the extension of the DCL command line buffer. Yes, > the process does crash. Yes, it was a pain. However, it happened so > infrequently and never actually did anything serious that I didn't > report it for the first few months. > > The version of VMS is also incorrect. I reported the problem under > OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 in June, 2004. > > Tim. Hi, Tim- Still got the Multia? Best regards, WWWebb ------=_Part_8685_14755097.1218683436347 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline


On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Tim E. Sneddon <tesneddon@bigpond.com> wrote:
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
In article <9781c047-761a-4923-9aab-8c1a32ff7c67@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes:
I would have thought a CLI overflow to have been tried by at least a few
at DEFCON9 because the system automagically created service-rich user
accounts with of course DCL which the hackers were then free to abuse.

We were not scrutinizing buffers however and any such overflow may in
our case have done nothing harmful (by luck or design). I think it was
version 7.1-? if it makes a difference. Did the gentleman specify any
versions?
Default 8.3 install on an Alpha according to the presentation notes.
To reproduce this, apparently one is to enter exactly 511 characters
of input, then press the up arrow three times and wait - a core dump
follows.

I know you didn't make the claim but you should first test it out before
brandishing bullshit here.

I've tried to reproduce the claimed results from your posted instruction
and it does NOT produce a "core dump".

This isn't entirely bullshit. I reported it, case number AH800710.

I saw the original post regarding the "execution of priviledged code"
and was tempted to reply, but I didn't bother. However, I am now :-)

The issue never allowed execution of priv. code (certainly not as
far as I could see). The issue was simply a miss calculation in the
RECALL ring buffer that resulted in an access violation. This seemed
to coincide with the extension of the DCL command line buffer. Yes,
the process does crash. Yes, it was a pain. However, it happened so
infrequently and never actually did anything serious that I didn't
report it for the first few months.

The version of VMS is also incorrect. I reported the problem under
OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2 in June, 2004.

Tim.
 
Hi, Tim-
 
Still got the Multia?
 
Best regards,
 
WWWebb
------=_Part_8685_14755097.1218683436347-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:33:58 -0400 From: "Peter Weaver" Subject: RE: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology Message-ID: <0bd501c8fda5$72137c90$2802a8c0@CHARONLAP> > -----Original Message----- > From: Graham Burley [mailto:burley@Encompasserve.org] > Sent: August 13, 2008 7:13 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Example: VMS to Web Browser "push" technology > > In article , "Richard Maher" > writes: > > > Just goes to show what can be achieved when all the > > http/webserver/interpreter/process-management crud is removed. > > I couldn't resist enduring some crud-wading to demonstrate an > alternate approach (AJAX polling), the example can be seen at: > > http://deathrow.vistech.net/~spider/ajaxpoll.html Neat. In the time honoured tradition of stealing^Jborrowing code I do not understand and hacking until something happens, here is a MONITOR PROCESS for people who prefer HTML over text screens. You can monitor PROCESS/TOPCPU, PROCESS/TOPFAULT, PROCESS/TOPBIO or PROCESS/TOPDIO by selecting the button from the bottom of the page. A few seconds after if first starts you will see MONITOR PROCESS/TOPCPU by default. The top of the page will always show the screen with no data, you have to scroll down to get to the real data. ******** WARNING ********** On my system a new sub-process is created every time the screen refreshes. I am not sure if there is a tweak I can do to change Apache to reuse the original process. If anyone knows of a way to do it then let me know, otherwise watch that you do not fill a disk with accounting data by leaving this page open. ******** WARNING ********** $ create apache$common:[cgi-bin]monitor.com $deck $ write sys$output "Cache-Control: no-cache, must-revalidate" $ write sys$output "Expires: Mon, 26 Jul 1997 05:00:00 GMT" $ write sys$output "Content-Type: text/plain" $! $ write sys$output "" $ write sys$output "
"
$ monitor process/end="+00:00:03"/inter=1 /'query_string'
$ write sys$output "
" $ exit $eod $ create apache$common:[htdocs]monitor.html Monitor in AJAX

This example demonstrates using AJAX to show the output from the MONITOR PROCESS command. The text directly below this will show the standard MONITOR output with no data, scroll down and you should see the MONITOR output with live data. The live data should refresh itself every few seconds. Scroll down further to select another item to monitor using the buttons.

stuff should appear here if your browser supports AJAX ...

$! Peter Weaver www.weaverconsulting.ca www.openvmsvirtualization.com www.vaxvirtualization.com www.alphavirtualization.com Winner of the 2007 OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Award for System Management/Performance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:43:39 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: OpenVMS in the media - National Grid Control Centre, Britain from Message-ID: <48A3639B.20207@comcast.net> Simon Clubley wrote: > In article <97773d08-1c63-4ab1-aee8-607189f82b78@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes: >> A sensible global hobbyist program could still >> make VMS truly affordable (currently that doesn't apply in, for >> example, the UK, where membership of HPUG to get the hobbyist licence >> is =A350+ ($100+?) per year... may not seem much, but times are hard). >> > > Are free associate memberships in the US DECUS still available, and if so, > can they still be used to register for a VMS Hobbyist license ? Hi Simon, You can still use your DECUS membership number to register hobbyist licenses - the folks at the hobbyist site still honor "old" DECus numbers. If you need to know what your DECUS number is, log on to EISNER:: - show process/all will show you your account number, which is your DECUS number. Happy hobbying! [...] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:28:55 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in message news:08081308321926_20200492@antinode.info... > From: "***** charles" > >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > > What does it _actually_ say on the front? Sounds like one of the > "white-box" systems intended for Windows NT (only). > >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white >> letters >> on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a >> lot >> of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy >> that I >> got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far >> if >> that is true. Any other ideas? > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/index.html > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ > [...] > > >>>help > >>>boot > > http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/ > >> I understand that this machine will go to >> 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of >> this cheap? > > Ebay? Well, after lots of surfing I was able to determine the following: 1. on the front it says DIGITAL Server 3000 and on the back the model number is FR-K7F4W-AB I haven't been able to determine if this is supposed to be NT only or not. I am downloading a Debian Linux install networking cd. I did try the boot command to the scsi controller and it booted to NetBSD which will be replaced as soon as I can burn the Debian cd. From further research I am thinking that this box might be a 3305 but it does not say that anywhere. It does have a 500MHz alpha chip in it 21164A-2. The prompt >>> should indicate that the box is not the NT only box I have been reading about. show version gives: V5.4-U3 March 24 1999 12:39:17 show pal gives: VMS PALcode V1.20-3 OSF PALcode V1.22-5 show config gives: slot5 QLogic ISP1020 pka0.7.0.5.0 scsi bus id 7 dka100.1.0.5.0 Quantum XP34550J dka400.4.0.5.0 RRD46 scsi cd-rom slot6 S3 Trio 64/Trio32 slot7 Intel 82375 Bridge to Bus1, EISA slot11 DE500-BA Network Con ewa0.0.0.11.0 00-00-F8-08-F4-F3 2. What do most of the people who have one of these things have on them OS wise? Linux, BSD, OpenVMS, DigitalUnix or whatever? 3. How do I update to the last BIOS or however you say it in the dec world? I understand there is a V5.8 out. 4. What is the biggest scsi drive I can stick in this thing and just have it work? How many of them can I string togetther inside the box? 5. When looking at stuff and the Internet it is difficulet to tell if what I am reading is relevant or not, confused on exactly what the box is. 6. I have been thinking of just setting up a server for "stuff" on my local net but I am also thinking that the electricity to run this thing might be a little high vs. a cheap low power x86 clone server. Hope the above helps you help me. thanks, charles..... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:32:58 -0500 From: "***** charles" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: "Mike R" wrote in message news:ab1e4e58-9b21-496b-8edd-e637b8ebca72@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... On Aug 13, 4:15 pm, "***** charles" wrote: > Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white > letters > on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot > of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that > I > got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far > if > that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to > 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of > this cheap? > > thanks, > charles..... Have a look at http://montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm Mike http://alpha.mike-r.com Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better I could give it a whirl. thanks, charles.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:46:58 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: ***** charles wrote: > Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better... Define "better" ! Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:52:36 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <00A7E0DC.B057A65F@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "***** charles" writes: >"Mike R" wrote in message >news:ab1e4e58-9b21-496b-8edd-e637b8ebca72@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >On Aug 13, 4:15 pm, "***** charles" wrote: >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white >> letters >> on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot >> of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that >> I >> got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far >> if >> that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to >> 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of >> this cheap? >> >> thanks, >> charles..... > >Have a look at >http://montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm > >Mike >http://alpha.mike-r.com > >Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better I >could give it a whirl. It's not only better; it's the best! ;) -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM ... pejorative statements of opinion are entitled to constitutional protection no matter how extreme, vituperous, or vigorously expressed they may be. (NJSC) Copr. 2008 Brian Schenkenberger. Publication of _this_ usenet article outside of usenet _must_ include its contents in its entirety including this copyright notice, disclaimer and quotations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:07:22 -0400 From: "David" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: I have some sitting in boxes - 128MB if you want it it's yours if you pay shipping -- David B Turner ============================================= Island Computers US Corp PO Box 86 Tybee GA 31328 Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 x201, Mobile x251 Email: dturner@islandco.com International & Local: (001)- 404-806-7749 Fax: 912 786 8505 Web: www.islandco.com ============================================= "***** charles" wrote in message news:h8Bok.4204$zv7.3579@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com... > Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white > letters on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit > about a lot of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. > The guy that I got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to > get it that far if that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this > machine will go to 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I > could get some of this cheap? > > thanks, > charles..... > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:24:43 -0700 (PDT) From: johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: On Aug 13, 7:28 pm, "***** charles" wrote: > "Steven M. Schweda" wrote in messagenews:08081308321926_20200492@antinode.info... > > > > > From: "***** charles" > > >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > > > What does it _actually_ say on the front? Sounds like one of the > > "white-box" systems intended for Windows NT (only). > > >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white > >> letters > >> on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a > >> lot > >> of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy > >> that I > >> got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far > >> if > >> that is true. Any other ideas? > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/index.html > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/ > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/ > > [...] > > > >>>help > > >>>boot > > > http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/ > > >> I understand that this machine will go to > >> 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of > >> this cheap? > > > Ebay? > > Well, after lots of surfing I was able to determine the following: > > 1. on the front it says DIGITAL Server 3000 and on the back > the model number is FR-K7F4W-AB I haven't been able to > determine if this is supposed to be NT only or not. I am > downloading a Debian Linux install networking cd. I did try > the boot command to the scsi controller and it booted to > NetBSD which will be replaced as soon as I can burn the > Debian cd. From further research I am thinking that this > box might be a 3305 but it does not say that anywhere. It > does have a 500MHz alpha chip in it 21164A-2. The > prompt >>> should indicate that the box is not the NT only > box I have been reading about. > show version gives: > V5.4-U3 March 24 1999 12:39:17 > show pal gives: > VMS PALcode V1.20-3 > OSF PALcode V1.22-5 > show config gives: > slot5 QLogic ISP1020 pka0.7.0.5.0 scsi bus id 7 > dka100.1.0.5.0 Quantum XP34550J > dka400.4.0.5.0 RRD46 scsi cd-rom > slot6 S3 Trio 64/Trio32 > slot7 Intel 82375 Bridge to Bus1, EISA > slot11 DE500-BA Network Con ewa0.0.0.11.0 00-00-F8-08-F4-F3 > > 2. What do most of the people who have one of these things have on them > OS wise? Linux, BSD, OpenVMS, DigitalUnix or whatever? > > 3. How do I update to the last BIOS or however you say it in the dec world? > I understand there is a V5.8 out. > > 4. What is the biggest scsi drive I can stick in this thing and just have it > work? > How many of them can I string togetther inside the box? > > 5. When looking at stuff and the Internet it is difficulet to tell if what I > am > reading is relevant or not, confused on exactly what the box is. > > 6. I have been thinking of just setting up a server for "stuff" on my > local net but I am also thinking that the electricity to run this thing > might be a little high vs. a cheap low power x86 clone server. > > Hope the above helps you help me. > > thanks, > charles..... You've done a lot of surfing but you're still confused. Am I safe to assume that means you haven't visited http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/archive/3300/ ? Links from that page include "Configuration list" which has on it the very part number you mention (brief description is "500 MHz Alpha processor, 2MB cache, 128MB ECC memory, 4GB SCSI HDD, Windows NT 4.0 Server"). There are also links for specifications, documentation, firmware (not really BIOS but...). It's apparently a Digital Server 3305, which were also known as the AlphaServer 800 for Windows NT. The ones sold for Windows NT came in Frost White, and those sold (as AlphaServer 800s) for VMS and Unix came in Top Gun Blue. There are detailed specifications linked from the page I mentioned above. The first and last sets of PDF and Word documents on the Specifications (ie "Systems and Options Archive") page appear corrupt (or maybe the server is confused - IIS 5.0???), but some are readable (eg http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB00P4PF.PDF) and although there may have been changes in detail and in part numbers over the life of the product, the basic stuff is likely to have remained mostly unchanged. The documentation page includes a link to a ~200-page service guide; if you feel like understanding the innards in a bit more depth, this is probably worth a read. As you've got one, and as it so far seems potentially capable of running VMS, you probably should run VMS on it. But if you really just want a simple domestic fileserver, or a basic Linux/BSD/whatever box, it's probably not an ideal choice and you might be better off finding it a home with someone with an interest in VMS and then finding yourself a more appropriate x86 box. Note that this is a server-class system with PCI and EISA slots (not ISA) and ECC memory(true 36bit, not 32bit). In its day, this was a *good* thing, but today it may make life trickier as the bits will be rarer. It takes up to 2GB of 60ns/3.3V EDO ECC DIMM ECC memory. I can't recall what happens if you try 32bit memory but "fake parity" memory which uses logic to synthesise the parity on reads (rather than chips to store the parity on writes) will not work. Did the system come with the EISA Config Utility on floppy? My vague recollection is that some weird config-related problems required the user to run the ECU to update the config info somewhere in the system. Hopefully that won't be necessary here. Also note that the same hardware under different OSes (eg WinNT vs VMS) would have different ECU settings, so even if the system config was right for NT when it left its last owner, it may by now be wrong for VMS (can that really be right? It's what I recall...). Depending on your aims, you might want to try to get hold of a slightly better PCI graphics card. I got rid of one not long ago (from memory it wasn't a VMS-supported one though, there weren't that many of those around). Welcome to the world of VMS, and good luck. Or as they say in the land of SuSe, "have a lot of fun". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:55:37 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: ***** charles wrote: > "Mike R" wrote in message > news:ab1e4e58-9b21-496b-8edd-e637b8ebca72@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 13, 4:15 pm, "***** charles" wrote: >> Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 >> FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I >> don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white >> letters >> on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot >> of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that >> I >> got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far >> if >> that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to >> 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of >> this cheap? >> >> thanks, >> charles..... > > Have a look at > http://montagar.com/~patj/vbegin.htm > > Mike > http://alpha.mike-r.com > > Was thinking of running Debian but if OpenVMS is better I > could give it a whirl. Better or worse is a question that could be, and has been, argued for years!!! OpenVMS is VERY different from Unix/Linux. Some of us love it. I don't recall that we've converted many Unix/Linux people to VMS! The command language (DCL) tends to use English words related to the function of the command; e.g. PRINT, TYPE, RUN, DELETE, SET, SHOW, ASSIGN, etc, etc. Any command is guaranteed unique at four characters. Some commands can be abbreviated to as few as two characters. Files specifications are considered baroque by Unix/Linux types; e.g. DKA0:[GILBERT.COMMAND_FILES]GET_CONFIG.COM;13 in which DKA0 is the name of the (SCSI) disk device [GILBERT.COMMAND_FILES] is the directory specification, GET_CONFIG is the file name, and .COM is the file extension which tells us that the file is a DCL (Digital Command Language) script and the ;13 says it's the 13th version of the file. Multiple versions may exist in the same direction; if you don't specify a version, you get the most recent one (highest version number). Give it a try. The HELP command is your friend. If you like it, welcome aboard. If not, please go away quietly! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:21:35 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: What to do now with a DEC Server 3000? Message-ID: <1218665663_733@isp.n> ***** charles wrote: > Hi, this seems to be the right group. I came across a DEC Server 3000 > FR-K7F4W-AB with a 500MHz alpha chip and one stick of 128M of ram and I > don't know how big the hard drive is yet. I have fired it up, white letters > on a blue background and the final prompt is >>>. I know a bit about a lot > of architectures but this is my first alpha so I am stumped. The guy that I > got it from said it would run VMS but I don't know how to get it that far if > that is true. Any other ideas? I understand that this machine will go to > 1G of ram (2 sitcks of 512M each). Anyone know where I could get some of > this cheap? > > thanks, > charles..... > > Some "white box" Alphas are capable of running OpenVMS. The machines were marketed to the Windows NT crowd. Since these machines were competing with PC NT boxes, they had to be priced below what the equivalent Alphas marketed into the OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX markets were priced at. To protect the higher margin products the WB Alphas were sold unable to run the "native" 8-) OSes. There are 3 Digital Server variants of AlphaServers: AS 800 - DS 330x AS 1200 - DS 530x AS 4100 - DS 730x There are 2 "consoles" the machines may be set up to power up into. To boot Windows NT the machine must be set to use the Alphabios console. To boot OpenVMS the machine must be set to use the SRM console. The Alphabios console is a GUI interface PC users are more likely to be comfortable with. 8-) The SRM console is text based. The SRM prompt is the ">>>" you noted above. The SRM console user interface is based on a UNIX variant. Things like "ps" and "more" are available at the ">>>" prompt. Enter "help" at the ">>>" prompt to see the console commands available. You can pipe commands together. Enter "show | more" to see the full configuration paged. There is some information about OpenVMS (and Tru64 UNIX) on WB Alphas in this newsgroup. Google is your friend. 8-) Jeff ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.442 ************************