INFO-VAX Thu, 03 Jul 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 368 Contents: Re: Backup to SnapServer Re: Backup to SnapServer Re: Expanding a RAID5 array Re: Failsafe-IP Re: Newbie question on ON WARNING Re: Newbie question on ON WARNING Re: OT: ATM PIN code theft Re: OT: ATM PIN code theft Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Re[2]: OT: ATM PIN code theft Re: Symbol Substitution Mystery Re: TAM (Terminal Access Monitor) Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Jul 2008 14:31:27 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Backup to SnapServer Message-ID: In article <486b87fa$0$11608$607ed4bc@cv.net>, "Carmine Castiglia" writes: > > At any rate, it appears that my OpenVMS release (7.1-1H2 with DIGITAL TCP/IP > Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V4.2 ) does not include an NFS Client so > the previous suggestion to mount the SnapServer as an NFS drive does not > appear to be possible. For those versions NFS is available, but might not be installed. Look real seriously at whether the NFS client is going to automagically preserve file attributes since NFS doesn't know jack about them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:16:58 -0400 From: bradhamilton Subject: Re: Backup to SnapServer Message-ID: <486C1A7A.2080805@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: [...] > $ copy/ftp /user="user" /password="password" - > infile xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx::outfile > > But you'll need something better than FTP access to get BACKUP to > write to it and to prevent hosing the file attributes. Or else, do as I did at my last VMS job: Disk-to-disk IMAGE backup, Zip (don't forget "-V") the resulting saveset, and ftp the .zip file to the SnapServer at your leisure. Not fast, but reliable - saveset file attributes are preserved, and unZip'ping savesets is quite a bit faster than Zip'ping them. The whole scenario was "automated" for lights-out, after-hours backups. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:05:08 +0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kari_Uusim=E4ki?= Subject: Re: Expanding a RAID5 array Message-ID: <486bed89$0$2665$9b536df3@news.fv.fi> etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > On 1 Jul, 05:45, Kari Uusimäki > wrote: >> Carmine Castiglia wrote: >>> I am running an AlphaServer 1200 with a RAID Array 230/Plus subsystem >>> installed. This question concerns a RAID 5 array consisting of three >>> DS-RZ1CB-VW (4.3GB) drives. >>> I would like to swap this out with DS-RZ1DB-VW (9.1GB) drives and would like >>> to do so in the easiest, safest, and quickest way possible. I know that if >>> I replace a single 4.3GB drive with a 9.1GB drive and allow the array to >>> rebuild, the total storage space available will not change. This rule >>> applies if I replace a second drive as well because available storage space >>> is always calculated based on the smallest drive in the array. Correct? >>> So, what happens if I continue the process and replace the third drive. >>> After rebuild has completed, will the RAID controller automatically make the >>> full (18.2GB RAID 5) capacity available? WIll this process be completed >>> without data loss? >> Here you can find the specifications for the KZPAC (RAID Array >> 230/Plus).http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/SOC/QB00E7PF.PDF >> >> There you'll find the supported disks and the possible configurations. >> >> I tend to recommend building a Raid 0+1 set (with as many disks as >> possible) and when it is ready, to copying the data from old LUNs to >> newly built LUNs using BACKUP/IMAGE. That way you'll get most disk space >> with best performance and the downtime will take only as long as the >> Raid 0+1 build and the BACKUP will take. The 9GB Ultra disks are the >> fastest, but using more 4.3GB disks will give you a somewhat faster set, >> because there are more spindles. >> >> Using BACKUP for copying the data will also defragment your data as an >> additional benefit. >> >> Regards, >> >> Kari- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > FWIW, we have a number of clients on SWXCRs inside DS10s using three > 18GB disks and they work about as well as any SWXCR config would. > Personally, I dislike the SWXCR. It was great in its day but its day > is now all but over. If it were a new config and I could afford it, > I'd either host based shadow or use a SmartArray. > > Steve Of course the KZPAC (SWXCR) is outdated long since, but I just tried to suggest a solution for the given hardware. Personally I would use a more modern Raid adapter or even a SAN-based Disk Array - depending on the space and performance needed. Kari ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:57:17 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Failsafe-IP Message-ID: <486C31FD.63EA8670@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: IanMiller [mailto:gxys@uk2.net] > > Sent: May 30, 2008 5:26 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Failsafe-IP > > > > On 30 May, 19:36, JF Mezei wrote: > > > Gremlin wrote: > > > > IP address. The desired result is that any request to the "cluster > > IP", > > > > 192.168.0.10 would be served by any card in any host. > > > > > > Not possible. > > > > > > On ethernet, TCPIP uses ARP to find the ethernet address associated > > with > > > a specific IP. > > > > > > When a device first communicates with say 10.0.0.17, it sends a > > > broadcast "will 10.0.17 please stand up and identify itself". > > 10.0.0.17 > > > then stands up, waves hands and sends a packet back to the requestor > > > identifying itself. This gives the sender the ethernet address of > > > 10.0.0.17 which it keeps in a cache. (TCPIP> SHOW ARP ) > > > > > > From then on, when the sender wants to communicate to 10.0.17 it > > finds > > > its ethernet address locally in its own cache. After some inacivity > > > timeout, the cache is invalidated and the next time the sender want > > to > > > talk to 10.0.0.17, it needs to do the ARP thing again to re-establish > > > the association between the IP and ethernet addresses. > > > > > > So an IP address can only be associated with one ethernet address at > > one > > > time. > > > > > > The way the failover works is that when node B realises that node A > > has > > > failed, node B will send what is called a gratuitous ARP response to > > > everyone. everyone is then expected (but not required, not all > > devices > > > support this) to update their ARP tables to have the new ethernet > > > address (node B) associated with 10.0.0.17 > > > > > > Doing load balancing at the router level would also have interesting > > > implications. Consider the case where node A sends a packet to the > > > outside world, but when the outside world sends the ACK back, the > > router > > > sends the ack to node B. > > > > > > This is one reason you had the failt tolerant vax, and nowadays that > > RTR > > > software (is that atill alive, or was it declared mature ?) > > > > > > Put one very relaible machine up front which will distribute > > > transactions to a series of nodes. This makes it possible to have a > > > single external IP and do load balancing on many boxes. > > > > > > D > > > > > > RTR is alive and well and living on Itanium systems. 5.1 came out last > > year. > > Those interested in Failsafe-IP and other HA TCPIP HA configs like load > Broker, and LAN failover should also read the following whitepaper: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/journal/v2/articles/tcpip.pdf I was hoping for something more up-to-date: 2 LAN Failover is introduced with OpenVMS V7.3-2, which is in field test at the time of writing. 3 LAN Failover is not discussed in detail in this paper. Refer to the OpenVMS V7.3-2 documentation. D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: 02 Jul 2008 22:03:22 GMT From: burley@Encompasserve.org (Graham Burley) Subject: Re: Newbie question on ON WARNING Message-ID: <486bfb29$0$90269$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> In article , gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) writes: >>AKA: does an ON WARNING/ERROR command inside a subroutine overwrite one >>that was set in the calling code? > >Correct. No, incorrect - the ON command applies to the current command level, a subroutine is a new command level. >>When the subroutine exits, does the previous ON WARNING/ERROR get re-instated? > >No, it doesn't, the ON WARNING condition is undefined afterwards. Yes it does - it's a different command level. >>Or must the calling code re-establish any/all ON conditions to ensure >>the subroutine has not messed with them ? > >That's it. No, it isn't necessary - it's a different command level. >>Similarly, is it correct to state that the ON conditions are stacked >>when a command procedure calls andother command procedure with the @ >>command ? > >No, this is not the case. Yes it is - they're different command levels. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:19:02 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Newbie question on ON WARNING Message-ID: <486C3716.9B2C8A07@spam.comcast.net> JF Mezei wrote: > > Generally speaking, in DCL procedures, the ON conditions are not > stacked. Correct. Each "ON" statement supercedes any previous at the current procedure depth. > When one issues a second ON WARNING in a procedure, it replaces > any previously set ON WARNING condition. And ON condistion are > "consumed" if triggered, you need to re-issue them if necessary. > > Does this also apply to subroutines ? It depends. When GOSUB to a label, the procedure depth does not change. When you CALL a SUBROUTINE or "@" another proc., a procedure depth one deeper than before is created. In that case, the "ON" statement doe snot effect the calling procedure depth. > AKA: does an ON WARNING/ERROR command inside a subroutine overwrite one > that was set in the calling code ? When the subroutine exits, does the > previous ON WARNING/ERROR get re-instated ? See the above. > Or must the calling code re-establish any/all ON conditions to ensure > the subroutine has not messed with them ? GOSUB, Yes, optionally. CALL or "@", no. > If the subroutine's ON command overwrites the calling code's, does this > mean that an error/warning happening after the subroutine returns to the > calling code, the calling code would branch to the label inside the > subroutine that had been set while the subroutine executed ? GOSUB, Yes. CALL or "@", no. > Similarly, is it correct to state that the ON conditions are stacked > when a command procedure calls andother command procedure with the @ > command ? I'll say "No" here, but only because the meaning of "stacked" is ambiguous in this context. See my most recent DCL Programming Presentation which can be found at this URL: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:51:05 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: ATM PIN code theft Message-ID: <486c0669$0$30379$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Tom Linden wrote: > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/01/national/main4226061.shtml 1- I doubt very much that ATMs use the public Internet. They may use a private IP based network. 2- First generation machines (the IBM ones with the 1 or 3 line LED display) was SNA only. Subsequent generations supported X.25 as well. OS2 was the OS of choice for ATMs during the early to mid 1990s. Once IBM gave up on OS2, ATMs moved to Windows, and like Microsoft, banks started to add fluff to the ATMs by adding animated images etc etc. 2- It is correct to state that not all ATMs encrypt traffic or just the PINs. Normally, ATMs in secured locations (for instance, inside a branch) require less care because the links to the data centre are on a private network. However, this article speaks of ATMs operated by 3rd parties, so all bets are off. However Citibank would have set standards for any ATM bearing its name/logo. If the 3rd party operator did not abide by Citibank standards, it is up to citibank to ensure it did. Atalla was the encryption service/boxes of choice back in the 1990s. They were bought by Tandem since they integrated well with the Tandem software to support ATMs. Guess where http://www.atalla.com ends up now? The article makes a lot of speculation. What has not been revealed is whether the thieves forged ATM cards and used the stolen PINs at any regular ATM, or if they forged transction which caused an ATM to spit out money. (or perhaps just put the ATM in test mode). Certain bank employees have special ATM cards that activate ATM management software. Once inside, you can activate any/all software functions. Perhaps they captured those cards. There is too litle actual information in that article to know anything real about this theft. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:21:44 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: OT: ATM PIN code theft Message-ID: <486C37B8.3A1137A5@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/01/national/main4226061.shtml > > It occurs to me that one should check what type of systems your bank > uses. I have an account at a bank that runs IIS on their front-end > as a result I never use that ATM card. BoA, last I chewcked was all > IBM. > > I uses to use Iserver Lookup but they seem to be out of order. What > are the rest of you using? > > http://www.rjlsoftware.com/software/internet/iserver/default.shtml Where have all the data gone, long time passing? Where have all the data gone, a long, long time ago? Where have all the data gone? Gone to hackers every one. When will we ever learn? When will we ever learn? (With apologies as appropriate...) D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:17:58 -0500 From: Michael Austin Subject: Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > This is VERY OT. But so strange I can't resist posting it. > > > > Person X,male, aged 32, travels back in time 32 years. Person X has sex > with his own mother, she gets pregnant and gives birth to ... Person X. > > Person X becomes his own father. And his son is himself. > > The baby would *have* to be an exact clone of his father since they are > one and the same. > > When the egg is fertilised, the mixture of genes would occur in an > absolutely predicted way where the female genes would exactly replace > identical genes coming from the father (and those genes being replaced > with the mother's genes originally came from the father's mother). > > There is an interesting portion here that the genetic mixup during > fertilisation would be fully known in advance and predictable. > > This means that when the father has sex with the mother, the mother's > genes would only replace the portion of the father,s genes which had > come from his mother, producing an exact replica. > > Ok, sorry if this caused a few people up upchuck. But I am getting > somewhere: > > Person X's genealogical tree would be interesting since all ancestors on > the father's side would be born on the same date and in fact be the same > person. The person would be his own father, and be his father's father > etc etc. Infinite loop. > > At the time of insemination, while the result would be fully predictable > (so much for eisenburg), the reaction would be physically normal. Sperm > with certain human genetic makeup would mix with an ova with certain > genetic makeup and create an offspring. > > However, in the big picture, the male portion of the genes would have > never been created. It would merely exist after a certain point in time > (the birth date of X). The genetic legacy might continue if X has more > than 1 baby (perhaps before he travels back in time, he mates with a > different female). But the genetic code would not exist prior to his birth. > > So in essence, a genetic identity would have been created out of thin > air, or just merely exist. > > > > Perhaps a similar logic would explain the universe. Perhaps the "big > bang" is just our universe travelling back in time a few billion years > and when it rematerialises, it happens in a process similar to the big bang. > > If baby universe is created by a much older version of itself travelling > back in time, it would mean that no "god" would be needed to create the > universe in the first place since the universe would simply exist in a > loop where it creates itself over and over again. > > And the matter/energy would essentilly be like a perpetual machine where > all of it is recycled when moved back in time to the big bang. The > matter/energy would merely exist in time, having never been created. some people have way too much time on their hands... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 19:02:27 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Message-ID: <8660a3a10807021602v6b4880b7o8d6793c7430fd4b3@mail.gmail.com> ------=_Part_5263_19863835.1215039747321 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:21 AM, wrote: > In article <4869bdfc$0$30363$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei < > jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: > >This is VERY OT. But so strange I can't resist posting it. > > > > > > > >Person X,male, aged 32, travels back in time 32 years. Person X has sex > >with his own mother, she gets pregnant and gives birth to ... Person X. > > > >Person X becomes his own father. And his son is himself. > > > >The baby would *have* to be an exact clone of his father since they are > >one and the same. > > > >When the egg is fertilised, the mixture of genes would occur in an > >absolutely predicted way where the female genes would exactly replace > >identical genes coming from the father (and those genes being replaced > >with the mother's genes originally came from the father's mother). > > > You are presupposing a deterministic universe so that the result would be > the > person who travelled back in time. If you don't make that supposition then > if > he has sex with his mother and got her pregnant then the genes from the > mother > need not necessarily be the same since he only gets half of her genes. > Sure this would create a paradox since the birth of a different child when > he > was due to be born would mean he had in effect killed himself which meant > he > couldn't then have traveled back to have sex with his mother etc etc > ie A variant of the Grandfather paradox. > > > This is a rather old SCI-FI staple. The best version of which is probably > Robert Heinlein's - All You Zombies > > http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html > > where a hermaphrodite is seduced by way of a time machine by himself and > gives > birth to herself and then recruits himself into a time agency which gives > him > access to the time machine ... > This overcomes the problem of only having half the mother's genes. > (Note. Again this is a deterministic universe ie no free will since if the > hermaphrodite doesn't travel back and seduce herself she/he won't exist). > > Perfectly logical if the hermaphrodite exists but how did the loop get > started > to produce the hermaphrodite to travel back in time ... > A Universe in which the time travelling hermaphrodite doesn't exist is less > complicated. > > > >There is an interesting portion here that the genetic mixup during > >fertilisation would be fully known in advance and predictable. > > > >This means that when the father has sex with the mother, the mother's > >genes would only replace the portion of the father,s genes which had > >come from his mother, producing an exact replica. > > > >Ok, sorry if this caused a few people up upchuck. But I am getting > >somewhere: > > > >Person X's genealogical tree would be interesting since all ancestors on > >the father's side would be born on the same date and in fact be the same > > person. The person would be his own father, and be his father's father > >etc etc. Infinite loop. > > > >At the time of insemination, while the result would be fully predictable > >(so much for eisenburg), the reaction would be physically normal. Sperm > >with certain human genetic makeup would mix with an ova with certain > >genetic makeup and create an offspring. > > > >However, in the big picture, the male portion of the genes would have > >never been created. It would merely exist after a certain point in time > >(the birth date of X). The genetic legacy might continue if X has more > >than 1 baby (perhaps before he travels back in time, he mates with a > >different female). But the genetic code would not exist prior to his > birth. > > > >So in essence, a genetic identity would have been created out of thin > >air, or just merely exist. > > > > > > > >Perhaps a similar logic would explain the universe. Perhaps the "big > >bang" is just our universe travelling back in time a few billion years > >and when it rematerialises, it happens in a process similar to the big > bang. > > > >If baby universe is created by a much older version of itself travelling > >back in time, it would mean that no "god" would be needed to create the > >universe in the first place since the universe would simply exist in a > >loop where it creates itself over and over again. > > As mentioned above that doesn't really explain why such a loop should exist > rather than nothing existing. > > > > >And the matter/energy would essentilly be like a perpetual machine where > >all of it is recycled when moved back in time to the big bang. The > >matter/energy would merely exist in time, having never been created. > > This also sounds like the cyclic universe idea ie > > Big Bang occurs > Universe expands > Universe eventually slows > Universe collapses > Universe contracts to a point > Point explodes in Big Bang > > > Anyway as you say this is extremely of topic. > > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > And the Heinlein story was the first place I ever heard of that song. It was in a sci-fi anthology, the title of which eludes me, although I remember that the hardcover was red. WWWebb ------=_Part_5263_19863835.1215039747321 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:21 AM, <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote:
In article <4869bdfc$0$30363$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>This is VERY OT. But so strange I can't resist posting it.
>
>
>
>Person X,male,  aged 32, travels back in time 32 years. Person X has sex
>with his own mother, she gets pregnant and gives birth to ... Person X.
>
>Person X becomes his own father. And his son is himself.
>
>The baby would *have* to be an exact clone of his father since they are
>one and the same.
>
>When the egg is fertilised, the mixture of genes would occur in an
>absolutely predicted way where the female genes would exactly replace
>identical genes coming from the father (and those genes being replaced
>with the mother's genes originally came from the father's mother).
>
You are presupposing a deterministic universe so that the result would be the
person who travelled back in time. If you don't make that supposition then if
he has sex with his mother and got her pregnant then the genes from the mother
need not necessarily be the same since he only gets half of her genes.
Sure this would create a paradox since the birth of a different child when he
was due to be born would mean he had in effect killed himself which meant he
couldn't then have  traveled back to have sex with his mother etc etc
ie A variant of the Grandfather paradox.


This is a rather old SCI-FI staple. The best version of which is probably
Robert Heinlein's - All You Zombies

http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html

where a hermaphrodite is seduced by way of a time machine by himself and gives
birth to herself and then recruits himself into a time agency which gives him
access to the time machine ...
This overcomes the problem of only having half the mother's genes.
(Note. Again this is a deterministic universe ie no free will since if the
hermaphrodite doesn't travel back and seduce herself she/he won't exist).

Perfectly logical if the hermaphrodite exists but how did the loop get started
to produce the hermaphrodite to travel back in time ...
A Universe in which the time travelling hermaphrodite doesn't exist is less
complicated.


>There is an interesting portion here that the genetic mixup during
>fertilisation would be fully known in advance and predictable.
>
>This means that when the father has sex with the mother, the mother's
>genes would only replace the portion of the father,s genes which had
>come from his mother, producing an exact replica.
>
>Ok, sorry if this caused a few people up upchuck. But I am getting
>somewhere:
>
>Person X's genealogical tree would be interesting since all ancestors on
>the father's side would be born on the same date and in fact be the same
> person.  The person would be his own father, and be his father's father
>etc etc. Infinite loop.
>
>At the time of insemination, while the result would be fully predictable
>(so much for eisenburg), the reaction would be physically normal. Sperm
>with certain human genetic makeup would mix with an ova with certain
>genetic makeup and create an offspring.
>
>However, in the big picture, the male portion of the genes would have
>never been created. It would merely exist after a certain point in time
>(the birth date of X). The genetic legacy might continue if X has more
>than 1 baby (perhaps before he travels back in time, he mates with a
>different female). But the genetic code would not exist prior to his birth.
>
>So in essence, a genetic identity would have been created out of thin
>air, or just merely exist.
>
>
>
>Perhaps a similar logic would explain the universe. Perhaps the "big
>bang" is just our universe travelling back in time a few billion years
>and when it rematerialises, it happens in a process similar to the big bang.
>
>If baby universe is created by a much older version of itself travelling
>back in time,  it would mean that no "god" would be needed to create the
>universe in the first place since the universe would simply exist in a
>loop where it creates itself over and over again.

As mentioned above that doesn't really explain why such a loop should exist
rather than nothing existing.

>
>And the matter/energy would essentilly be like a perpetual machine where
>all of it is recycled when moved back in time to the big bang. The
>matter/energy would merely exist in time, having never been created.

This also sounds like the cyclic universe idea ie

Big Bang occurs
Universe expands
Universe eventually slows
Universe collapses
Universe contracts to a point
Point explodes in Big Bang


Anyway as you say this is extremely of topic.


David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University


And the Heinlein story was the first place I ever heard of that song.  It was in a sci-fi anthology, the title of which eludes me, although I remember that the hardcover was red.


WWWebb ------=_Part_5263_19863835.1215039747321-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 04:45:42 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: Disturbing thoughts on creation of the universe Message-ID: In article <8660a3a10807021602v6b4880b7o8d6793c7430fd4b3@mail.gmail.com>, "William Webb" writes: >------=_Part_5263_19863835.1215039747321 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Content-Disposition: inline > >On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 2:21 AM, wrote: > >> In article <4869bdfc$0$30363$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei < >> jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: >> >This is VERY OT. But so strange I can't resist posting it. >> > >> > >> > >> >Person X,male, aged 32, travels back in time 32 years. Person X has sex >> >with his own mother, she gets pregnant and gives birth to ... Person X. >> > >> >Person X becomes his own father. And his son is himself. >> > >> >The baby would *have* to be an exact clone of his father since they are >> >one and the same. >> > >> >When the egg is fertilised, the mixture of genes would occur in an >> >absolutely predicted way where the female genes would exactly replace >> >identical genes coming from the father (and those genes being replaced >> >with the mother's genes originally came from the father's mother). >> > >> You are presupposing a deterministic universe so that the result would be >> the >> person who travelled back in time. If you don't make that supposition then >> if >> he has sex with his mother and got her pregnant then the genes from the >> mother >> need not necessarily be the same since he only gets half of her genes. >> Sure this would create a paradox since the birth of a different child when >> he >> was due to be born would mean he had in effect killed himself which meant >> he >> couldn't then have traveled back to have sex with his mother etc etc >> ie A variant of the Grandfather paradox. >> >> >> This is a rather old SCI-FI staple. The best version of which is probably >> Robert Heinlein's - All You Zombies >> >> http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~mfedder/zombies.html >> >> where a hermaphrodite is seduced by way of a time machine by himself and >> gives >> birth to herself and then recruits himself into a time agency which gives >> him >> access to the time machine ... >> This overcomes the problem of only having half the mother's genes. >> (Note. Again this is a deterministic universe ie no free will since if the >> hermaphrodite doesn't travel back and seduce herself she/he won't exist). >> >> Perfectly logical if the hermaphrodite exists but how did the loop get >> started >> to produce the hermaphrodite to travel back in time ... >> A Universe in which the time travelling hermaphrodite doesn't exist is less >> complicated. >> >> >> >There is an interesting portion here that the genetic mixup during >> >fertilisation would be fully known in advance and predictable. >> > >> >This means that when the father has sex with the mother, the mother's >> >genes would only replace the portion of the father,s genes which had >> >come from his mother, producing an exact replica. >> > >> >Ok, sorry if this caused a few people up upchuck. But I am getting >> >somewhere: >> > >> >Person X's genealogical tree would be interesting since all ancestors on >> >the father's side would be born on the same date and in fact be the same >> > person. The person would be his own father, and be his father's father >> >etc etc. Infinite loop. >> > >> >At the time of insemination, while the result would be fully predictable >> >(so much for eisenburg), the reaction would be physically normal. Sperm >> >with certain human genetic makeup would mix with an ova with certain >> >genetic makeup and create an offspring. >> > >> >However, in the big picture, the male portion of the genes would have >> >never been created. It would merely exist after a certain point in time >> >(the birth date of X). The genetic legacy might continue if X has more >> >than 1 baby (perhaps before he travels back in time, he mates with a >> >different female). But the genetic code would not exist prior to his >> birth. >> > >> >So in essence, a genetic identity would have been created out of thin >> >air, or just merely exist. >> > >> > >> > >> >Perhaps a similar logic would explain the universe. Perhaps the "big >> >bang" is just our universe travelling back in time a few billion years >> >and when it rematerialises, it happens in a process similar to the big >> bang. >> > >> >If baby universe is created by a much older version of itself travelling >> >back in time, it would mean that no "god" would be needed to create the >> >universe in the first place since the universe would simply exist in a >> >loop where it creates itself over and over again. >> >> As mentioned above that doesn't really explain why such a loop should exist >> rather than nothing existing. >> >> > >> >And the matter/energy would essentilly be like a perpetual machine where >> >all of it is recycled when moved back in time to the big bang. The >> >matter/energy would merely exist in time, having never been created. >> >> This also sounds like the cyclic universe idea ie >> >> Big Bang occurs >> Universe expands >> Universe eventually slows >> Universe collapses >> Universe contracts to a point >> Point explodes in Big Bang >> >> >> Anyway as you say this is extremely of topic. >> >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University >> >> >And the Heinlein story was the first place I ever heard of that song. It >was in a sci-fi anthology, the title of which eludes me, although I remember >that the hardcover was red. > I'm my own grandpaw - for lyrics and explanation see http://gean.wwco.com/grandpa/index.html David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University > >WWWebb > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:45:49 +0500 From: Valentin Likoum Subject: Re[2]: OT: ATM PIN code theft Message-ID: <1235636858.20080703084549@ncc.volga.ru> On 02.07.2008 VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Tom > Linden" writes: >>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/01/national/main4226061.shtml >> >>It occurs to me that one should check what type of systems your bank >>uses. I have an account at a bank that runs IIS on their front-end >>as a result I never use that ATM card. BoA, last I chewcked was all >>IBM. > Look again or in the near future. My bank (BofA) recently replaced > its ATMs with new machines. The machine which was accessible from > outside the bank -- not the lobby machine -- was found in a perpet- > ual Weendoze Reboot cycle one day when I approached it. Scarey... > VERY SCAREY! It's too late to afraid. All modern ATMs I know about are using Windows inside them. At least here, in Europe. But the subject story looks very unclear. All normal ATMs (not sure for Citibank's) don't passed PIN in clear outside their PIN-pad. PIN is thrown outside this hardware encrypted with DES (obsolete) or 3DES (modern) and encryption keys are changed on regular basis. So you could hack ATM or even break it by parts but it doesn't help you to get clear PINs. The real life is much more simple - bad guys are using add-on on the card reader and faked PIN pad over the real one. No need to hack anything. -- Best regards, Valentin valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:04:35 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Symbol Substitution Mystery Message-ID: <486C33B3.4251DDC@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Jun 28, 2:18 pm, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig--- > remove CLOTHES to reply) wrote: > > In article > > <23a60f13-6a0a-44df-adbd-fb9a62a14...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>, Doug > > > [...] > > > > I'm pretty sure that, at least if the expressions are legal DCL > > expressions, everything works as expected. If anyone has a particular > > example which is unclear, please post just that example. > > I've given this whole issue some more thought and I think I have a > clearer, better explanation, but I won't have time to post it until > the weekend. > > But I'd like to quickly comment on the legality of some of the given > expressions. > > DCL> WC WSO 'F$STRING('ZERO')' > %DCL-W-EXPSYN, invalid expression syntax - check operators and > operands "F$STRING"( (the value between the two apostrophes) is not a valid symbol name or a valid expression since it would require at least a closing paren. (")") to complete the syntax. "ZERO" is a valid symbol name, cannot be processed due to the previous error. ")" (the value between the next two apostrophes) is not a valid symbol name or a valid expression. > DCL> > DCL> WC WSO "''F$STRING('ZERO')'" > %DCL-W-EXPSYN, invalid expression syntax - check operators and > operands > > I believe both of these are illegal because F$STRING() expects either > a string (enclosed in quotation marks), a symbol, a valid expression, > or another lexical function as its argument. But here we have 'ZERO', > which isn't any of the acceptable types of arguments just given. > Therefore the expressions above are illegal. Well, technically, I would expect that it is DCL's parser that is expecting the correct syntax, not any specific function. What a mess it would be if each lexical had to re-invent DCL's parsing wheel! (This ain't UN*X, after all. ;-)) D.J.D. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 02:54:49 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist Subject: Re: TAM (Terminal Access Monitor) Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm skrev: > I'm supporting a VMS environment where something > called TAM, Terminal Access Mmonitor, is used. > It's a screen/forms/terminal tool to manage VT > terminals. The available docs are from Digital > and dated 1981-something. > > I'm mainly interested in if this tool had any > wider usage within the VMS community. > > Google didn't know anything about it, b.t.w. > > Jan-Erik. I have a tape with TAM for RSX here. It looks like something locally done at Digital Sweden, but I haven't properly looked through all the stuff in there. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 20:32:40 +0000 From: ChrisQ Subject: Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <4863ea84$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei > writes: > >> Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge >> over other modern Unixes ? > > > I don't know about the file system, but the kernel had clustering > modeled on VMScluster technology (there's a lot more to that than > file access). > > HP tried, but couldn't port that from the Tru64 kernel to the HP-UX > kernel. To me, evidence of the poor state of the HP-UX kernel. > > So, of course, HP walked away from the superior product. > At the time that it was being seriously developed, 5 or more years ago, it was streets ahead of solaris. In all kinds of ways that made it easier for the user and administrator. For example, the choice of sysv or bsd environments, filesystems, device support, networking. Programming, for example: ansi C compiler bundled with the distribution, all the headers and libraries for X etc where you would expect to find them and it was R6, unlike solaris, where you needed to put loads of links in place to compile X applications. I only used hp-ux briefly as a user, but remember it being hard work, with little added value and nothing where you would expect to find it. May be better now, but iirc, hp-ux originally came from the remains of Apollo Domain, which always was a bit odd. Tru64 was written from the start to be a modern, secure, 3nd generation unix, but I guess it was never a possibility that hp would dump their own product, no matter how much better / potential Tru64 had. Now, the rest of the world has caught up and o/s's like Solaris have just about everything you could wish for in a modern unix, irritating though it may be to admit it. The world of computing moves on, and rarely takes prisoners... Regards, Chris . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 01:49:47 GMT From: Bob Harris Subject: Re: Tru64 file system source code now open source Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article <4863ea84$0$10738$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei > writes: > > > > Question here: Does the DEC Unix file system still have an edge over > > other modern Unixes ? > > I don't know about the file system, but the kernel had clustering > modeled on VMScluster technology (there's a lot more to that than > file access). > > HP tried, but couldn't port that from the Tru64 kernel to the HP-UX > kernel. To me, evidence of the poor state of the HP-UX kernel. Gee and I thought we had ported TruCluster and AdvFS to HP-UX. I guess it was all a "Dream" and Digital was never acquired by Compaq, and HP didn't absorb Compaq, and HP didn't layoff 300 developers. But I'm awake now, so why don't they let me into ZKO anymore? :-( Going to Field Test, polishing the code, resolving the active bugs, and releasing the product is what didn't happen. We were demoing the technology running on HP-UX. Confidence and moral was high that we would finish, that is until the last month or so when we knew they were going to lay us off. My opinion is that the non-release was due to political in-fighting, and a bad quarter was the wedge used to cancel the porting project and unload 300 employees. > So, of course, HP walked away from the superior product. I'm sure they didn't look at it that way. I figure rest of the HP-UX group knew their product and didn't know anything about Tru64 UNIX or why TruClusters was a great product. Bob Harris ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.368 ************************