INFO-VAX Sat, 19 Apr 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 219 Contents: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Re: DEC 3000/400 firmware update Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server RE: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Re: Too many files in one directory (again) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 04:27:31 -0500 From: t-bone@address.invalid (Stan Barr) Subject: Re: Chip head stuff: AMD's proposed 12 core... Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:23:18 -0700 (PDT), AEF wrote: >Little did they know RSI was in the (real) near future! Well, >I assume people did know about writer's cramp, I assume. And >musician's cramp! I'd say at least that far back, no? Telegrapher's "glass arm" was a real problem back in the 19C... (Imagine tapping out 30+ words per minute non-stop for a 12-hour shift!) -- Cheers, Stan Barr t-bone .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com The future was never like this! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:41:46 -0700 (PDT) From: urbancamo Subject: Re: DEC 3000/400 firmware update Message-ID: On Apr 18, 6:42 pm, "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > On Fri, 18 Apr 2008, Bob Koehler wrote: > > Odd, I've always updated my 3000 via CD. BOOTP and MOP should > > work equally well no matter what OS is serving them. Lots of > > UNIX, of course, can server BOOTP. IIRC there's a MOP server > > for Linux. > > And I'll be happy to help (up to patching up sources to fix bugs) if > anyone decides to use this server and it fails for whatever reason. I use > this piece of software (running on an x86 PC) to boot my DECstations > routinely and I have successfully tried it with a VAXstation 4000/90 as > well. > > Maciej I also have the firmware CD if you need it - I am based in the UK if that turns out to be easier, or can post the CD image on my website. I use linux MOP to boot my DecServer 90TL terminal server. I have OpenVMS 8.3 running on my 3000/600 with no known issues. I also run tru64 4.0G, and have successfully installed OpenBSD. Lots of fun! Regards, Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 05:56:49 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Intel Itanium RAS Comparison with X86 Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:02:41 -0700, Main, Kerry wrote: I know it isn't Row Address Strobe. Usually I can decode the acronym from the context, but this one has me stumped, guess I am getting dumb. " Mainframe-Class RAS in the Processor The Intel Itanium processor was designed from its inception to deliver mainframe-class availability. It incorporates leading RAS capabilities for detecting, correcting and containing the kinds of unavoidable hard and soft errors that can bring down systems or corrupt data (Table 1 on next page). " I discovered I couldn't cut and paste the above quote from Opera, but Firefox let me, FWIW. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 06:36:30 -0600 From: Jeff Campbell Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <1208608098_253@isp.n> Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > >> In article <08041807563198_2020CE0A@antinode.org>, sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >>> Oh, really? So, the RFC expects the FTP client to do caret removal >>> on the names supplied by the FTP server? This seems to me unlikely. >>> Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an >>> ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) >> Why should the carets be removed? They are part of the file name. > > Not really. They're part of the internal representation of a > file name with exotic characters (exotic by ODS2 standards, that is). > > alp $ pipe write sys$output "abcd" > d5:a.b.c.d > alp $ dir d5:a.b.c.d > > Directory ALP$DKA100:[sms] > > a^.b^.c.d;1 > > Total of 1 file. > > (Actually, I believe that the internal-internal representation is > optimized a bit to maximize confusion for QIO users.) > >> Oh, you want a^.b.c on VMS to become a.b.c on some other platform? >> That's your problem, just like when we wanted A.FTN from RSX to >> become A.FOR on VMS. > > Not really. I'd like "a.b.c.d" on VMS to appear as "a.b.c.d" in the > FTP server listing. Failing that, as a fall-back, I'd like to be able > to fetch "a^.b^.c.d", when _that_ appears in the FTP server listing. > Did you try getting a TCPIP FTP server to _accept_ that caret-filled > mess which you claim is the true VMS file name? You should. Then tell > me how wonderfully consistent this mess is. Remember this question + > comment? > >> Have you ever used a TCPIP FTP server with extended file names on an >> ODS5 disk? (Apparently not. It's lamer than you might think possible.) > > That was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, but it did > include a hint (too subtle, apparently) to _try_ some simple tasks > involving ODS5 extended names v. a TCPIP FTP server. Actual experience > can be more enlightening than prejudice-laden conjecture. > > From: "Richard B. Gilbert" > >> Is there some benefit to putting carets in a file name? Other than >> creating compatibility problems????? > > It does let you specify a space without using a real space ("^_"), > thus not splitting a command-line token. Otherwise, no, not really. > I think that the ODS5 encoding scheme was a pretty good solution to the > problem of expanding the character set without breaking everything. It > did break some things, however, like the (lame) FTP server. (The latest > version of MMS seems to be doing better, however.) > > From: JF Mezei > >> The issue here is that VMS doesn't *really* support funky names in ODS5. >> It has a kludge to support non standard characters by preceding them >> with a caret. > > Not in my opinion. As demonstrated above, you can use caret-free > extended names in DCL, and many other places. (And you _must_ use them > with the TCPIP FTP server.) There is a risk of seeing carets in some > places, and proper programming can hide them where appropriate. The > TCPIP FTP server fails to hide then when it should. > >> I think NFS (if I can get it to work again without rebooting) translates >> it back to my.chocolate.bar when feeding the mac, but not FTP. > > Perhaps the NFS server is less defective than the FTP server. > > From: Marty Kuhrt > >> [...] If you want a real >> laff on the Mac, try using Safari to do ftp:// stuff. Firefox may be a >> bit odd, but Safari won't do it at all (at least in my case). > > Yes, Safari is worse. I think that it tries to do a "CWD > /dev:[dir]", or some such nonsense, and then, when it gets a complaint > back, it gives up. One might argue either way as to which is worse: > Safari's thoroughly defective presentation of the data, or Mozilla's > data-dependent variably defective presentation of the data. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org > 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 > Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 XP's command line FTP client seems to work: ================================================== Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600] (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp. C:\ ftp n8wxs.com Connected to n8wxs.com. 220 pws600.n8wxs.com FTP Server (Version 5.6) Ready. User (n8wxs.com:(none)): xxxx 331 Username xxxx requires a Password Password: 230 User logged in. ftp> dir 200 PORT command successful. 150 Opening data connection for SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USERS.xxxx]*.*;* (209.193.74.95, 076) Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USERS.xxxx] A^.B^.C.D;2 1/16 19-APR-2008 06:12:44 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) A^.B^.C.D;1 1/16 19-APR-2008 06:12:20 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) LOGIN.COM;2 5/16 13-APR-2008 14:05:13 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) SD.COM;1 1/16 13-APR-2008 14:05:40 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) TCPIP$FTP_SERVER.LOG;1 0/16 19-APR-2008 06:13:31 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) Total of 5 files, 8/80 blocks 226 LIST Directory transfer complete. ftp: 599 bytes received in 0.05Seconds 11.98Kbytes/sec. ftp> get "a.b.c.d" 200 PORT command successful. 150 Opening data connection for - SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USERS.xxxx]A^.B^.C.D;2 (209.193.4.95,1077) (72 bytes) 226 Transfer complete. ftp: 69 bytes received in 0.00Seconds 69000.00Kbytes/sec. ftp> bye 221 Goodbye. C:\dir a.b.c.d Volume in drive C is Local Disk Volume Serial Number is xxxxxxxx Directory of C:\ 04/19/2008 06:13 AM 69 a.b.c.d 1 File(s) 69 bytes 0 Dir(s) 3,841,728,512 bytes free C:\ ========================================== The problem is that the HP FTP server is interpreting the incoming file names. So of course it isn't going to find a requested "a^.b^.c^.d" because it will map the name to "a^^.b^^.c^^.d" . Quoting the file name on the requester's side works, though. Jeff ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:12:08 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mozilla (et al.) v. TCPIP FTP server Message-ID: <480a1a19$0$31244$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Jeff Campbell wrote: > ftp> dir > A^.B^.C.D;2 1/16 19-APR-2008 06:12:44 [xxxx] (RWED,RWED,RE,) > ftp> get "a.b.c.d" If you are to do an NLIST (the official command to get the filenames), you will also see "A^.B^.C.D;2" The problem is that NLIST is meant to provide a list of files in the exact representation that can be used to request that file. No FTP client will know to translate the NLIST output of A^.B^.C.D;2 into "a.b.c.d" in the request. If HP is no longer going to release TCPIP Services for VAX, then it should come out and officially say so, then then allocate mega development budget to get TCPIP Services to adopt the stuff to support not only ODS5, but also those ACME services for user authentication and logging/intrusion detection. As long as Tcpip Services was still developped for VAX, one could argue that they couldn't start using Alpha only system services since they weren't available VAX. That excuse is now wearing quite thin. But of course, we all know that HP isn't going to magically allocate the development budgets and rehire the poeple it laid off. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 15:15:48 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 18, 2008 9:19 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh > > Marty Kuhrt wrote: > > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >> In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, > >> JF Mezei writes: > >>> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS > >>> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) > >> > >> What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? > > > > The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through > IBM > > services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company > that > > was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more > > comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. > > IBM consultants would probably support any OS for $$$. > > But many IBM products WAS, DB2 etc. are not available for VMS. > > Arne > IBM, like HP, is a very big company. They have many different divisions (some of which are larger than many companies) and will usually make business decisions based on the needs their specific Cust base. IBM Global Services is like HP in the same way i.e. both have Solaris, AIX, OpenVMS, z/OS, Linux, Windows, HP-UX, NSK resources etc. You can not survive in the SI world if you do not have access to these resources (eithe= r directly of via contract workers). I suspect the IBM product groups do not dictate how their Global Services division should operate any more than the same scenario at HP. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-254-8911 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 2008 16:05:49 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <66ujitF2m93jnU1@mid.individual.net> In article <$yqIL4$wmzAi@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <66q19aF2ks2anU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? > > IBM knows good stuff when they see it. And they know how to market. And? Has IBM ever expressed an interest in being the owner of VMS? I didn't think so. And, of course, even if they did, the point still remains that VMS is not now and probably never will be for sale. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 2008 16:10:04 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <66ujqrF2m93jnU2@mid.individual.net> In article , Marty Kuhrt writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, >> JF Mezei writes: >>> http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/04/16/ibm-launches-pilot-program-for-migrating-to-macs/ >>> >>> IBM had a pilot program to evaluate supporting Macintosh computers for >>> its own staff. They are also looking towards becoming more multi-platform. >>> >>> This is interesting in light of the fact that IBM, having sold its PC >>> business to Lenovo is no longer really tied to Microsoft. AKA: it >>> doesn't need to kneel down in from of Bill Gates, and have a sacrificial >>> offering to prove its loyalty to MS anymore. >>> >>> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS >>> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) >> >> What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? >> > > The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM > services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that > was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more > comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. Like other major players I have worked for in the past, IBM supports whatever their customers want (unlike some companies that shall remain nameless). They don't buy the companies, just support their customers. Has IBM ever expressed an interest in purchasing VMS? So why would you think they would be interested now that the product is on the downhill side of its life? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 Apr 2008 16:17:25 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <66uk8kF2m93jnU3@mid.individual.net> In article <01b89554-e11f-47cd-9a32-a23966054820@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Apr 18, 7:46 pm, Marty Kuhrt wrote: >> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> > In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, >> > JF Mezei writes: >> >>http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2008/04/16/ibm-launches-pilot-program-f... >> >> >> IBM had a pilot program to evaluate supporting Macintosh computers for >> >> its own staff. They are also looking towards becoming more multi-platform. >> >> >> This is interesting in light of the fact that IBM, having sold its PC >> >> business to Lenovo is no longer really tied to Microsoft. AKA: it >> >> doesn't need to kneel down in from of Bill Gates, and have a sacrificial >> >> offering to prove its loyalty to MS anymore. >> >> >> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS >> >> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) >> >> > What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? >> >> The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM >> services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that >> was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more >> comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. > > Yet they supplanted many VMS systems with their AS/400's! Well, VAX/ > VMS, at least. I personally witnessed one in action, and one of the AS/ > 400 programmers said the AS/400 was known as the VAX killer. :-( Well, that was name (but not officially, I think) that IBM applied to the AS/400. A lot of those sales were moves to the IBM name rather than something specifically superior in the AS/400. DEC once had a time like that. I still remember hearing; "I don't care who wins the bid as long as it says VAX on the front of the machine." That was early in my beltway- bandit days and I took the lesson to heart. Always, ALWAYS!, give the customer what he wants, If it's not what he wants, even if it's superior he will not be happy. Too bad the (many) owners of VMS lost sight of that. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:28:36 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <480a1db1$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > From: Arne Vajhøj [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] >> Marty Kuhrt wrote: >>> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> In article <4807a187$0$7289$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, >>>> JF Mezei writes: >>>>> It would be a hoot if IBM started to port all its software to VMS >>>>> despite HP's best efforts in the other direction :-) :-) >>>> What could possibly make IBM want to do anything at all with VMS? >>> The last two VMS gigs I ran across were for shops outsourced through IBM >>> services. At a previous job I shared a data center with a company that >>> was looking to outsource it's VMS services. IBM had a more >>> comprehensive and lower bid than anyone. IBM supports VMS. >> IBM consultants would probably support any OS for $$$. >> >> But many IBM products WAS, DB2 etc. are not available for VMS. > > IBM, like HP, is a very big company. They have many different divisions > (some of which are larger than many companies) and will usually make > business decisions based on the needs their specific Cust base. > > IBM Global Services is like HP in the same way i.e. both have Solaris, > AIX, OpenVMS, z/OS, Linux, Windows, HP-UX, NSK resources etc. You can not > survive in the SI world if you do not have access to these resources (either > directly of via contract workers). > > I suspect the IBM product groups do not dictate how their Global Services > division should operate any more than the same scenario at HP. Any why should they ? A profitable business is a profitable business ! Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:35:34 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: IBM looking at Macintosh Message-ID: <480a1f55$0$90276$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Well, that was name (but not officially, I think) that IBM applied to the > AS/400. A lot of those sales were moves to the IBM name rather than > something specifically superior in the AS/400. DEC once had a time like > that. I still remember hearing; "I don't care who wins the bid as long as > it says VAX on the front of the machine." That was early in my beltway- > bandit days and I took the lesson to heart. Always, ALWAYS!, give the > customer what he wants, If it's not what he wants, even if it's superior > he will not be happy. Too bad the (many) owners of VMS lost sight of that. "The customer is always right, even if they're wrong" may not always apply to individual cases, but as an overall strategy it does. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:15:36 -0800 From: glen herrmannsfeldt Subject: Re: Too many files in one directory (again) Message-ID: <9ZqdndAzi7RlWZTVnZ2dnUVZ_qvinZ2d@comcast.com> JF Mezei wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>Unix does not store the directory entries in ascending alphanumeric >>order! The VMS developers, rightly or wrongly, assumed some degree of >>sanity in the users. > So when I do an "ls" in Unix, it does an in memory sort of the directory > before listing it ? > I guess it was a case of providing better performance for DIR vs CREATE > while Unix provides better performance for CREATE vs DIR Yes. I believe there is an option not to sort it. Also, tar will write the files in the order they are in the directory without sorting. Often for directories with many files that is faster than accessing them in sorted order. (Maybe not all unix, but most of them.) -- glen ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.219 ************************