INFO-VAX Fri, 11 Jan 2008 Volume 2008 : Issue 22 Contents: Re: A brief history of NTP time Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Re: Carl J. Lydick Re: Carl J. Lydick Re: Carl J. Lydick Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Re: dial up modem Re: dial up modem Re: DoD use of VMS (was: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?) Re: DoD use of VMS (was: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?) Re: Island Computers is moving Re: MAC and Current address Re: NASA gets SGI 2048-core Itanium 2 supercomputer OpenVMS awk and gawk Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Re: Perl issues? (was Re: looking for blue |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo) Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? SMS Mobile marketing is a new addition to the media mix UCX 4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX Re: UCX 4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick Re: USB-stick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:24:29 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: A brief history of NTP time Message-ID: In article , Marc Van Dyck writes: > For those interested by time management (NTP, et al), I suggest > reading the paper "A brief history of NTP time" at > http://www.cis.udel.edu/~mills/database/papers/history.pdf . > It has nice references to Alpha systems being used systematically > as time keepers because of the stability of their internal clock. > I wonder which OS they are running and how they will be replaced > once Alpha gets de-supported... Odd, I always found VAX clocks more reliable. Most Alpha used a commercial clock chip that didn't run at a multiple of the VMS clock lsb, so Alpha had to introduce a "leap tick" to keep the time lsb right. I wonder which model Alpha they used and which clock chip it employed. And timekeeping in UNIX has always been hazardous below about 50 milliseconds. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:44:16 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article <$CJbmYHBv42m@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article > , yyyc186 > writes: > > On Jan 6, 12:19 pm, gaoshan.w...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > I am in china right now, and have been talking with venture capitals > > recently, probably can get 100m us$ to start up provided we have the > > ability. There is a big OS market developing in china right now, > > Why is this starting to sonud like a 419? You are not alone in thinking that. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:36:51 -0500 From: "Farrell, Michael" Subject: RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D041DB0C@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM> What is a "419"? Mike Farrell -----Original Message----- From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch]=20 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:44 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? In article <$CJbmYHBv42m@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article=20 > , yyyc186=20 > writes: > > On Jan 6, 12:19 pm, gaoshan.w...@gmail.com wrote: > >=20 > > I am in china right now, and have been talking with venture capitals > > recently, probably can get 100m us$ to start up provided we have the > > ability. There is a big OS market developing in china right now, >=20 > Why is this starting to sonud like a 419? You are not alone in thinking that. --=20 Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:17:01 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D041DB0C@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM>, "Farrell, Michael" writes: >What is a "419"? > AKA Nigerian scam or Advanced Fee Fraud see http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ or http://www.quatloos.com/scams/nigerian.htm or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/419_scam etc David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >Mike Farrell > >-----Original Message----- >From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch]=20 >Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:44 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? > >In article <$CJbmYHBv42m@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > >> In article=20 >> , >yyyc186=20 >> writes: >> > On Jan 6, 12:19 pm, gaoshan.w...@gmail.com wrote: >> >=20 >> > I am in china right now, and have been talking with venture capitals >> > recently, probably can get 100m us$ to start up provided we have the >> > ability. There is a big OS market developing in china right now, >>=20 >> Why is this starting to sonud like a 419? > >You are not alone in thinking that. > >--=20 >Paul Sture > >Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: >http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:14:44 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D041DB0C@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM>, "Farrell, Michael" wrote: > What is a "419"? http://www.419eater.com/html/419faq.htm -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:17:46 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: In article <5un7oiF1ib37qU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Yeah, it's so prevalent that the approving authority for AIS in DOD > hasn't seen fit to upgrade their Security Readiness Review Evaluation > Scripts since 2005. I deal with lots of government agencies that use VMS but haven't found a need to write security standards for it. And more that write lot of standards for lots of things that they don't publish. Do you have both the clearance and the need to know? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:50:45 -0500 From: "Farrell, Michael" Subject: RE: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D041DB2B@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM> Thanks, Now I have a term for that form of perfidy. Mike Farrell -----Original Message----- From: P. Sture [mailto:paul.sture.nospam@hispeed.ch]=20 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:15 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? In article=20 <8330CD39B64C934DBE63CB6D4CEE37D041DB0C@NJ103EX2.EAST.VIS.COM>, "Farrell, Michael" wrote: > What is a "419"? http://www.419eater.com/html/419faq.htm --=20 Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 15:07:49 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS? Message-ID: <5upf24F1hl2cnU2@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5un7oiF1ib37qU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Yeah, it's so prevalent that the approving authority for AIS in DOD >> hasn't seen fit to upgrade their Security Readiness Review Evaluation >> Scripts since 2005. > > I deal with lots of government agencies that use VMS but haven't > found a need to write security standards for it. And more that > write lot of standards for lots of things that they don't publish. I have no doubt that there still exist a number of VMS systems in NASA. I understand they still have some PDP-11's floating around (as does LMCO believe it or not!) But we were talking about DOD and all DOD AIS comes under DISA. If DISA is not accrediting VMS systems, then ipso facto DOD is not using them. The date of the SRR and lack of updates, if anything, points to the fact that any VMS systems in DOD today are old (here comes that legacy word again) and if they are not changed from their configuration at the time of accreditation then they can continue to be used. If there is nothing available to accredit a system since 2005 what version of VMS would they be running? bill > > Do you have both the clearance and the need to know? Clearance, yes. Need to know will be provided when I need it. I somehow doubt that I am likely to ever have to visit a site that has a VMS system needing testing. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:11:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Andreas W. Wylach" Subject: Re: Building libxml2 on OpenVMS/VAX Message-ID: On 9 Jan., 08:26, "Andreas W. Wylach" wrote: > On 8 Jan., 04:39, "Craig A. Berry" > wrote: > > > > > In article <2UxR5LiUDSYl@wvnvms>, c...@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) > > wrote: > > > > In article > > > , "Andreas > > > W. Wylach" writes: > > > > On 7 Jan., 14:02, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > >> In article > > > >> , > > > >> "Andreas W. Wylach" writes: > > > >> >On 7 Jan., 11:58, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) wrote: > > > >> >> From: "Andreas W. Wylach" > > > > >> >> > To my problem: Since 2 days I try to build the libxml2 library on my > > > >> >> > Vax (a VaxStation 4000/96 with > > > >> >> > OpenVMS 7.3 with Compaq C V6.4-005). > > > libxml2 is an outstanding hunk of software. If you don't need a > > validating parser, though, also consider expat. > > > > >> >> > CC/NAMES=(SHORTENED)/FLOAT=D_FLOAT/object=DKA300: > > > >> >> > [AW.LIBXML2-2_6_30.DEBUG]HTMLTR > > > >> >> > EE.OBJ; HTMLTREE.C > > > >> >> > typedef long double trio_long_double_t; > > > >> >> > ........^ > > > >> >> > %CC-I-LONGDOUBLENYI, In this declaration, type long double has the > > > >> >> > same > > > >> >> > representation as type double on this platform. > > > >> >> > At line number 156 in DKA300: > > > >> >> > [AW.LIBXML2-2_6_30]TRIODEF.H;1. > > > > >> >> So? Whether that's a real problem depends on now many bits it > > > >> >> really > > > >> >> uses for trio_long_double_t variables. Without looking at the code, I > > > >> >> have no idea. > > > > >> >Well, I can't tell. I've never dealed with the fp/fp_class stuff in my > > > >> >life so I just changed that > > > >> >long double to double (like it stated in the compiler message). I know > > > >> >it sounds naive, but > > > >> >I have no other clue yet. > > > > >> $ HELP CC LANGUAGE DATA_TYPES... > > > > >> float 32-bit (single-precision) floating-point number > > > >> double 64-bit (double-precision) floating-point number > > > >> long float Interchangeable with double, but usage is > > > >> obsolete > > > You left out: > > > long double 128-bit (double-precision) floating-point > > number > > > which appears when I use the same help command you did with HP C > > V7.3-009 on OpenVMS Alpha V8.3 installed. For whatever reason, I don't > > think VAX C or DEC C on OpenVMS VAX ever implemented long double as an > > H_FLOAT, which would have been the natural thing to do (REAL*16 for you > > FORTRAN folks). But on 64-bit OpenVMS platforms with IEEE floating > > point enabled, long double does produce an X_FLOAT, which is twice as > > big as an ordinary double. > > > > >> Perhaps, it's just an old coding hangover from when the datum was changed > > > >> from long float (which this above says is obsolete usage) to double. I'd > > > >> remove the 'long' or, if you want, conditionalize that for the VMS build. > > > If it's conditionalized you definitely want to conditionalize it for > > VAX, not VMS, seeing as long double does give a double that twice as > > long as an ordinary double on 64-bit OpenVMS platforms. > > > > Just recently I finished getting libxml2-2_4_27 to build on VAX with > > > both DEC C and VAX C for use with VMS Mosaic. The main issue I ran > > > into was the need for IEEE floating point; several functions depend > > > on IEEE behaviors which are not available on VAX. Fortunately, I do > > > not think Mosiac's usage of libxml2 will be affected by the lack of > > > these behaviors. I can zip up what I have and put it out for FTP. > > > > If your application depends on the unavailable IEEE behaviors, then > > > you could be in for major problems. I'm not sure how much (or when) > > > libxml2 actually makes use of these behaviors. > > > > As far as D_FLOAT vs. G_FLOAT, I used G_FLOAT because it is the closest > > > match for libxml2's use of IEEE floating point. > > > Agreed. You'd almost certainly be better off with G_FLOAT since its > > range is much closer to IEEE than D_FLOAT's is. However, you should > > build with the same option that was used to build whatever you'll be > > linking with, such as Perl or WASD. And there is nothing corresponding > > to IEEE exception handling, NaNs, etc. Whether that causes trouble > > depends entirely on what XML you end up parsing. Validating against > > data-oriented schemas that do range checking or enforce other numeric > > rules will probably cause your parser to blow up spectacularly. But if > > you never see such schemas or attempt to do validation you'll probably > > be fine. > > > On the fp_class problem: > > > $ help crtl fp_class > > > CRTL > > > fp_class > > > Determines the class of IEEE floating-point values. > > > This function is OpenVMS Alpha and I64 only. > > > In other words, its absence is important, but you can't get it on VAX, > > or at least not unless you want to roll your own IEEE floating point in > > software, including standard run-time library support for same. > > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com > > Well, I even tried another port Hoff pointed me to, the libxml2-2-6-27 > version and I aint getting > any step further. I get the same results like I had with the 30 > subversion and even trying > an older version , like 2.4.x is not working out. It's all about the > fp_class and floating point > construcs/constants in the trio files. I have no clue, how they got > build on the vax, there's > even no diffs for VAX. The code-intern fallback method is also not > working and leads > to an access violation. When it comes to the link process of the > trionan test files > my compiler bails out with an bugcheck .... > > My main reason getting the libxml2 running on OpenVMS/VAX is to use > the > libxml perl modules for my dynamic XML/XSL homepage parser, a cms- > based perl/xml/xsl > construct I developed on linux. On linux tho it uses the Sablotron > Parser. I want to open > my OpenVMS hobby homepage with my VAX and therefore wanted to > implement that > dynamic perl homepage parser with WASD 9.2 server using perl rte > (which already runs > nicely). > > Unless nobody states me any solution for the libxml2, I will skip that > library, try to > get solved my c++ installation issues on my VAX and try to compile the > Sablotron > Parser to OpenVMS/VAX. That would be even a better solution, I would > not need > to change the perl cms code, that is already running. > > I have the expat running on my VAX, there was no problems at all, but > it's not enough > for my application. I need a parser that incorporates xml in my xsl > stylesheets and > expat wont do that for me the way I need it. I want to try not > to use lot's of perl modules and want to keep the perl Application as > small as possible > for performance reasons and try to keep the html generation under 5 > seconds (on the VAX). > Even tho for calling content items I need the xpath functionality. > Without that the whole > thing is not working. > > An example for the my parser is my street-lights info/collection > homepage (http://www.street-lights.info), just if you guys want to > know what I > am talking about.-)) > > Andreas W. Wylach The problem is solved with the help from George Cook's libxml2 Port to VAX. The compilation of the library went thru without any problems. Building the perl libxml module gave me some problems, had 3 undefined symbols due the length of a couple of function names, that exceeded 31 chars. I fixed that and now I can use the parser with my perl test construct. Just checked it out and it's also pretty fast with the rte envisonment of Wasd. Will see, how I can build up that homepage project. But for now I am happy.-) Thanks to all you guys that helped me out and tried to get me on the path! Andreas W. Wylach ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:30:13 +0100 From: LC's NoSpam Newsreading account Subject: Re: Carl J. Lydick Message-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---40151024-687413107-1200043813=:22337 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Andreas W. Wylach wrote: >> "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergeben!" > Das ist doch eine Google Uebersetzung, oder? ..?? No, it's a quote from F.Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III, 6 Popular some years ago because re-used by Asimov in his "The god themselves". I have corrected a few typos (Dummheit with two m's and substantives are capitalized) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected. Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so. ---40151024-687413107-1200043813=:22337-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:48:18 +0000 (UTC) From: gartmann@nonsense.immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) Subject: Re: Carl J. Lydick Message-ID: In article , LC's NoSpam Newsreading account writes: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Andreas W. Wylach wrote: > >>> "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen die Götter selbst vergeben!" >> Das ist doch eine Google Uebersetzung, oder? ..?? > >No, it's a quote from F.Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orleans, III, 6 >Popular some years ago because re-used by Asimov in his "The god >themselves". > >I have corrected a few typos (Dummheit with two m's and substantives >are capitalized) But you still missed one: it should be "vergebens" with a "s" at the end. Regards, Christoph Gartmann -- Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 Immunbiologie Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de D-79011 Freiburg, Germany http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:35:21 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Carl J. Lydick Message-ID: In article <4786c644$0$90274$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article <4a71ab9d-d89d-4a80-94c6-d1e3bf92633d@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, yyyc186 writes: >>> Does anyone here have a method of getting in touch with Carl J. >>> Lydick? Quite some time ago he posted GENTMPFILENAME.COM, and I would >>> like to talk with him about it. The email address associated with the >>> post is no longer valid. >> >> You'ld have to go to hell. Unless he got really lucky. > > Do not speak evil oft the dead. Having known several people who come across similar to CJL, I think he'd have sensed the joke more readily than that. I have fond memories of "getting the last word" by flaming him, setting my account DISMAIL, and going on vacation. But I also thought of him more as a kindred spirit than a bad fellow. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:56:56 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Message-ID: In article , Dale Dellutri wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:38:37 -0500, JF Mezei > wrote: > > On unix, at the shell prompt, what is the expected practice to print a > > text file to a postscript printer ? > > > On VMS, we have DCPS which will automatically translate a text file (in > > fact, it will know how to handle LN03/ANSI print sequences as well) and > > spews it out to the printer. > > > Is there some equivalent built-into most Unixes ? > > > Or would the easiest way be to just write a postscript prologue which > > will then print the text data that follows ? (and you print both together). > > Depending on the print server (CUPS, for eaxmple), it could be > as simple as: > $ lpr > or other programs can format the text file first, for example: > $ fold -s | pr -F -l66 -h"" | lpr > which folds the text lines at word breaks so each line is less > than 80 characters, then pr puts on headers, then lpr prints it. > > Or if you want to simply create a Postscript file from a text file, > you could use a2ps or enscript or other programs. > > If you're printing an already created Postscript file, use > $ lpr -l > The "-l" says send it raw; i.e., don't convert it to Postscript first. > > And other possibilities. Other possibilities include setting up an LPR/LPD queue on a VMS system and pointing it at the queue on the *nix system. This works very well to the printer on my OS X system with the exception that I haven't found a way of suppressing the CUPS header pages for jobs coming from VMS. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:21:35 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Message-ID: In article <47869f4e$0$16152$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > On unix, at the shell prompt, what is the expected practice to print a > text file to a postscript printer ? lp, or lpr, depending on which flavor of UNIX. > > On VMS, we have DCPS which will automatically translate a text file (in > fact, it will know how to handle LN03/ANSI print sequences as well) and > spews it out to the printer. > > Is there some equivalent built-into most Unixes ? It has been my painfull experience that UNIX was ahead of VMS on this part of printer handling for several years. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:41:12 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Message-ID: In article <4786a121$0$14988$9b536df3@news.fv.fi>, Uusimäki wrote: > On Tru64 there is a similar application: Advanced Printing (APX) > http://h30097.www3.hp.com/printing/apx.html > > It works much like DCPS (you make queues with different features etc) > and even the flag page is almost an exact copy of DCPS's flag page. I > haven't investigated it closer, but could be that it is a unix port > of DCPS. Advanced Printing and DCPS have a common heritage. Even though DCPS was developed by the Components and Peripherals division of Digital, and Advanced Printing was developed in the Unix group, some people from C&P moved to Unix to work on Advanced Printing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some common code between the two. Paul -- Paul Anderson OpenVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:45:31 -0500 From: Paul Anderson Subject: Re: DCPS for OS-X/Unix ? Message-ID: In article , Bob Harris wrote: > On Mac OS X, open the Postscript file with Applications -> Preview > and print from there. That works very well. You can also drag a PostScript file to the printer queue in your list of printers (Print & Fax system preference in Leopard, Printer Setup Utility in Tiger). I have an alias on my desktop specifically for this purpose. Paul -- Paul Anderson OpenVMS Engineering Hewlett-Packard Company ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:22:55 -0500 From: "Mike Minor" Subject: Re: dial up modem Message-ID: <13of9fjgo2al15a@corp.supernews.com> "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote in message news:4780FF89.6050004@comcast.net... > rexdale1050@yahoo.ca wrote: >> I need help ! >> I would like like to use command prompt on windows xp software >> to dial up using atdt modem commands to connect with my modem on my >> alpha server ds - 10 running vms 7 . 3 >> and use as a vt teminal >> >> Thank you for any help >> Neil > > You need some sort of software on your PC to do that. I think Windows has > some sort of a dumb terminal built in but I can't recall what it's called. > > For a VT100, or better, terminal emulation, you'll need something like > Reflection 2 or Reflection 4 (graphics terminal). Even terminal emulation > software is not totally satisfactory since the standard PC KeyPad is one > key short of a VT100 keypad. Once upon a time you could get the LK250 or > LK450 keyboard but those were never plentiful and are now quire rare! You > could try e-Bay but don't get your hopes up. . . . > > Or TN2000 by Ipswitch..... Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:37:58 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: dial up modem Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article > <4ef6029b-f799-4a05-a7ac-f5cc88098557@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, > "winston19842005@yahoo.com" writes: > > On Jan 8, 4:02 am, "P. Sture" wrote: > >> In article <4780C0D5.4609.E452...@infovax.stanq.com>, > >> "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: > >> > >> > Hyperterminal. It's a really lousy implementation, though. > >> > >> Last time I looked, Hilgraeve do a Personal Edition which is far > >> superior to the version which comes with Windows. > >> > > > > And wasn't that free at one time? I remember upgrading the one that > > came with Windows. > > It was free for personal use. Lots of folks thought that included > thier job. I only used it for home/hobbyist use myself, but I take your point. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 14:52:54 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: DoD use of VMS (was: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?) Message-ID: <5upe66F1hl2cnU1@mid.individual.net> In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <5un7oiF1ib37qU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> In article <5uhp5nF1i07l1U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>> >>>> You guys need to give this one a rest. It isn't true and there is >>>> much more evidence to supoport the lack of VMS in DOD then there is >>>> to try and support its presence. >>> >>> VMS is alive and well in DoD. Just like everywhere else, its >>> presence is much smaller than it was in the 80's, but it's >>> still there. >> >> Yeah, it's so prevalent that the approving authority for AIS in DOD >> hasn't seen fit to upgrade their Security Readiness Review Evaluation >> Scripts since 2005. > > What has changed in VMS security since 2005 ? What has changed in the default installation of versions of VMS since 2005? If you don't run the SRR Scripts, how would you know? > > For that matter, what has changed in DoD security requirements since > DoD Instruction 8500.2 was released on February 6, 2003 ? There is a bit more guidance than that bit, it is also irrelevant to the issue. It is the OS that is being tested for security, not the guidance. Are you saying that VMS has remained totally stagnant since 2005? And that would not be a bad thing? > > I do believe that DoD's "VMS-OpenVMS SRRChklst V2R2-3.html" OpenVMS A search using google could not find any reference to the link. > Security Checklist dated April 17, 2006 by OMEGAMON is pretty poor, Not sure who OMEGAMON is supposed to be but real SRR's come from DISA and I would not trust one that came from someone else, thank you. > but it is about the same as the previous two versions. I don't think > their updating process works when applied, but of course I have a vested > interest. Funny, according to DISA updates are done quarterly. There are SRR's all from last quarter for Windows (except NT), UNIX, and even OS390 (and here someone told me the mainframe was dead!!). And then we have OpenVMS - January 2005, even older than Windows NT (July 2006). The only one older is TANDEM - Dec 2003. Trust me, their updating process works just fine. And, you do realize that the SRR/STIG process is user driven. If no one is asking for VMS updates they will not be created. What does that tell you about the use of VMS within DOD? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 12:23:33 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: DoD use of VMS (was: Anyone interested in building a vms-like OS?) Message-ID: <3QuarRz+nPVu@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5upe66F1hl2cnU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > In article , > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> In article <5un7oiF1ib37qU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>> In article , >>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>> In article <5uhp5nF1i07l1U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >>>>> >>>>> You guys need to give this one a rest. It isn't true and there is >>>>> much more evidence to supoport the lack of VMS in DOD then there is >>>>> to try and support its presence. >>>> >>>> VMS is alive and well in DoD. Just like everywhere else, its >>>> presence is much smaller than it was in the 80's, but it's >>>> still there. >>> >>> Yeah, it's so prevalent that the approving authority for AIS in DOD >>> hasn't seen fit to upgrade their Security Readiness Review Evaluation >>> Scripts since 2005. >> >> What has changed in VMS security since 2005 ? > > What has changed in the default installation of versions of VMS since > 2005? If you don't run the SRR Scripts, how would you know? Default installation is not important - actual installation is important. >> For that matter, what has changed in DoD security requirements since >> DoD Instruction 8500.2 was released on February 6, 2003 ? > > There is a bit more guidance than that bit, it is also irrelevant to > the issue. It is the OS that is being tested for security, not the No, the OS is not being tested by anything from DISA. Only the installation and management of the OS. Testing the OS would be a security evaluation, and that has not been done since VMS V6.2, when the US government switched to the Common Criteria and DEC did not pursue that. > guidance. Are you saying that VMS has remained totally stagnant since > 2005? And that would not be a bad thing? I am saying that for the level of detail covered by the VMS SRR document, nothing significant has changed. The things the SRR checks are certainly insufficient and often irrelevant for measuring security of a VMS system. >> I do believe that DoD's "VMS-OpenVMS SRRChklst V2R2-3.html" OpenVMS > > A search using google could not find any reference to the link. But if you unpack the ZIP kit of the most recent DISA SRR Zip file, you will find that document. >> Security Checklist dated April 17, 2006 by OMEGAMON is pretty poor, > > Not sure who OMEGAMON is supposed to be but real SRR's come from DISA > and I would not trust one that came from someone else, thank you. OMEGAMON is the consultant or vendor who created the document for DISA. >> but it is about the same as the previous two versions. I don't think >> their updating process works when applied, but of course I have a vested >> interest. > > Funny, according to DISA updates are done quarterly. There are SRR's > all from last quarter for Windows (except NT), UNIX, and even OS390 > (and here someone told me the mainframe was dead!!). And then we have > OpenVMS - January 2005, even older than Windows NT (July 2006). The > only one older is TANDEM - Dec 2003. Trust me, their updating process > works just fine. No, when the most recent three SRRs for VMS (from whatever date), show insignificant change, the updating process (whenever they choose to do it) is not useful. > And, you do realize that the SRR/STIG process is user driven. If no > one is asking for VMS updates they will not be created. What does > that tell you about the use of VMS within DOD? It tells me that VMS site within DoD are just as anxious for security reviews as at any other organization. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:01:25 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Island Computers is moving Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:43:04 -0800, Larry Kilgallen > wrote: > > > In article <5un8f0F1ib37qU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu > > (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> In article , > >> "Tom Linden" writes: > > > >>> I would guess that Island is a DSPP and so there licenses are free > >> > >> Can DSPP members use those licenses for the day-to-day administrative > >> operation of their business? I was under the impression those licenses > >> were for development only and not for running your business. > > > > That is correct. The approved purposes are development and > > demonstration. > > But they could be demonstrating, first hand, WASD/OpenVMS on HP hardware. Sort of, but if it's processing sales orders, I'd say definitely not. IIRC it was Hein who recently commented that COBOL wasn't the best language to call system services from. My belated answer to that is if you are a DSPP, yes you can maybe choose a more suitable language, but if you are an end customer, COBOL may be all you have. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:56:19 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: MAC and Current address Message-ID: In article , brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) wrote: > "Tom Linden" writes: > > > I note that since 7.3-2 that > > mc lancp show config > > prints both MAC and Current address and that for DE500 > > they are the same but for DE600 they are different. > > Note that $ SHOW DEVICE /FULL [lan device] will display MAC addresses > for V8.3 and beyond. With that information I'm going to guess that Tom has the DE600 configured for DECnet, but the DE500 configured for TCP/IP only (possibly not configured for that either). On my system with a pair f DE500s: $ show dev ewa0/full ! configured for DECnet ... Def. MAC addr 00-00-F8-75-3B-99 Current MAC addr AA-00-04-00-7A-D8 $ show dev ewa0/full ! NOT configured for DECnet ... Def. MAC addr 08-00-2B-C5-40-4D Current MAC addr 08-00-2B-C5-40-4D -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 07:37:19 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: NASA gets SGI 2048-core Itanium 2 supercomputer Message-ID: <+UDeghGD7Q9e@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , David Douthitt writes: > > Wired had a nice writeup about how NASA's budget is wasted on all of the > popular and widely covered space missions instead of used for Earth > missions. At least half the missions at GSFC are pointed at the Earth. And you can't really understand the Earth without looking away from it. So Wired can take its flying leap of ignorance. > The author suggested less funding for something like the Mars missions > and more on terrestrial research such as the oceans, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:55:13 -0800 (PST) From: Doc Subject: OpenVMS awk and gawk Message-ID: <822838a9-40c9-4bf0-9d89-178ee0de012a@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> I've done due my diligence in Googling and searching the group archives. Nevertheless, I've not found an answer. I'm an old -- I mean really old -- VMS user. I'm working currently on OpenVMS V8.2. I took pity on the younger fellows, and provided them with GNV. (I've always held the view that computers should be conformed to people, rather than vice versa.) So, here I am, diddling around with awk and gawk. To do so, I set up the symbols: $ awk == "$gnu:[bin]awk" $ gawk == "$gnu:[bin]gawk" It has all been interesting experimenting with basic awk on various command procedures and other text files -- later I'll try indexed files! Then I tried something like this: $ awk "/define/" sys$login:login.com To my surprise, awk (and gawk) can't find a file that is qualified. Indeed, anything other than a filename and extension doesn't work. Here's the error I get: /$1$DGA928/GNV/GNV/bin/AWK: cmd. line:2: fatal: cannot open file `sys $login:login.com' for reading (i/o error) My attempts using various quoting or even unix-like file specifications, have failed to yield anything but variations of the above error. This is particularly unsatisfying, although I suppose I could create a DCL wrapper around these tools. :-( However, if there is one thing I've learned by watching this forum, its that there are a bunch of you folks out there who've been on VMS at least as long as I have, yet lacking whatever mental deficiencies that are precluding my solving problems like the one above. Might someone have mercy on an old man, and give a hint? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:26:53 -0600 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Message-ID: In article <822838a9-40c9-4bf0-9d89-178ee0de012a@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Doc wrote: > So, here I am, diddling around with awk and gawk. To do so, I set up > the symbols: > > $ awk == "$gnu:[bin]awk" > $ gawk == "$gnu:[bin]gawk" > > It has all been interesting experimenting with basic awk on various > command procedures and other text files -- later I'll try indexed > files! Then I tried something like this: > > $ awk "/define/" sys$login:login.com > > To my surprise, awk (and gawk) can't find a file that is qualified. > Indeed, anything other than a filename and extension doesn't work. > Here's the error I get: > > /$1$DGA928/GNV/GNV/bin/AWK: cmd. line:2: fatal: cannot open file `sys > $login:login.com' for reading (i/o error) > > My attempts using various quoting or even unix-like file > specifications, have failed to yield anything but variations of the > above error. This is particularly unsatisfying, although I suppose I > could create a DCL wrapper around these tools. :-( This works for me, i.e., Unix syntax and quoting: $ awk "/define/" "/sys$login/login.com" That was from DCL. In bash you need to escape the dollar sign so it doesn't interpret '$login' as a variable: $ awk "/define/" /sys\$login/login.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: Doc Subject: Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Message-ID: On Jan 11, 8:26 am, "Craig A. Berry" wrote: > This works for me, i.e., Unix syntax and quoting: > > $ awk "/define/" "/sys$login/login.com" > > That was from DCL. In bash you need to escape the dollar sign so it > doesn't interpret '$login' as a variable: > > $ awk "/define/" /sys\$login/login.com Thank you, Craig... it works perfectly! When I grow up, I'm gonna be just like you! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:13:40 -0800 (PST) From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: OpenVMS awk and gawk Message-ID: On Jan 11, 8:55=A0am, Doc wrote: > I've done due my diligence in Googling and searching the group > archives. =A0Nevertheless, I've not found an answer. =A0I'm an old -- I > mean really old -- VMS user. =A0I'm working currently on OpenVMS V8.2. > I took pity on the younger fellows, and provided them with GNV. =A0(I've > always held the view that computers should be conformed to people, > rather than vice versa.) > > So, here I am, diddling around with awk and gawk. =A0To do so, I set up > the symbols: > > $ awk =3D=3D "$gnu:[bin]awk" > $ gawk =3D=3D "$gnu:[bin]gawk" > > It has all been interesting experimenting with basic awk on various > command procedures and other text files -- later I'll try indexed > files! =A0Then I tried something like this: > > $ awk "/define/" sys$login:login.com > > To my surprise, awk (and gawk) can't find a file that is qualified. > Indeed, anything other than a filename and extension doesn't work. > Here's the error I get: > > /$1$DGA928/GNV/GNV/bin/AWK: cmd. line:2: fatal: cannot open file `sys > $login:login.com' for reading (i/o error) > > My attempts using various quoting or even unix-like file > specifications, have failed to yield anything but variations of the > above error. =A0This is particularly unsatisfying, although I suppose I > could create a DCL wrapper around these tools. :-( > > However, if there is one thing I've learned by watching this forum, > its that there are a bunch of you folks out there who've been on VMS > at least as long as I have, yet lacking whatever mental deficiencies > that are precluding my solving problems like the one above. > > Might someone have mercy on an old man, and give a hint? and awk and gawk make more sense than using vms commands? it might be a better idea to let them use dcl so they can learn how to use commands that make sense ... either unix is more convuluted than I thought or we both are getting really old ... :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:45:03 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Message-ID: In article <47859511$0$6237$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote: > And yeah, there are now widnows systems in cockpits to provide PDF > manuals to the crews. (called "electronic flight book"). "A new version of Adobe Reader is available. Do you wish to install it now or later?" -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:15:02 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Message-ID: In article <47869175$0$15736$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > > When the Airbus A320 was introduced, the FAA was shown to be incompetant > since they had not thought about testing software quality assurance. > (this was a totally new concept for passenger aircraft). It may have been new in passenger aircraft control, but it was hardly new at the FAA. They've been doing air traffic control with software since the 1950's. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:44:07 -0000 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: OT: Data security now an issue for aircraft Message-ID: <13of05s8u5dc574@corp.supernews.com> "IanMiller" wrote in message news:4bf71cba-8f70-4926-9391-326f7dc384e6@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > See Bruce Schnier's blog for some sensible comment on this > http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/01/hacking_the_boe.html > Ian, Bruce makes a very valid point when he says a new architecture like this necessarily has new failure modes (or, as he puts it, folks need to think about "the more common software flaw that causes some unforeseen interaction with something else and cascades into a bigger problem"). Bruce also quite reasonably points out that hard information would be very welcome. But beyond that there isn't much content there (I don't know where there *is* any real content on this subject). Fwiw, the on-plane LANs being discussed (called AFDX or ARINC664 or CDN depending on who you are) are sort of like Ethernet VLANs, which are obviously tried and reasonably well tested in the world of routine IT. On top of classic VLANs the aircraft networks add things like static design-time allocation of required bandwidths for known data flows (principles inherited from the ATM world but new to Ethernet). Given some of the extra requirements, I can't imagine that the switches being used are COTS so the chances of there being much real life experience with them are small, and testing is (by definition) never exhaustive enough, so as Bruce points out, there are genuine concerns, and they're not necessarily solely to do with security (if we mean the "access control" sense of security). Competent folks who are used to designing this kind of networky thing for ground-based but safety-related control systems would understand the issues on this aircraft network. So far, Boeing seem to be asking us to take it on trust that they (and their suppliers) have done the same quality of job as some of the readers here would have done, and so far, Boeing seem to be reluctant to answer simple but important questions e.g. as to whether there are actual "air gaps" between safety critical networks and what you might call "operations" networks. The first few pages of http://www.actel.com/documents/AFDX_Solutions_AN.pdf provide an overview of AFDX/ARINC664/CDN. Not sure where the best home is for the rest of this discussion. 2p John http://www.ces.ch/documents/downloads/afdx_white_paper.pdf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 07:51:35 -0600 From: "Craig A. Berry" Subject: Re: Perl issues? (was Re: looking for blue |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| logo) Message-ID: In article <7585297d-e651-449d-a414-74e43f9a8830@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I haven't built VMS::Mail myself in > > quite awhile, but I believe it's included in the Perl 5.8.4 kit here: > > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware70/perl/ > > > Hi Craig, > > Having got the Perl 5.8.4 kit from the HP Freeware, is it just a case > of unzipping the file? There don't appear to be any makefiles etc. Yes, just unzip it wherever you want and run the included perl_setup.com. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 06:55:16 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > >>Tell "them", whoever they are: LONGER IS STRONGER. PERIOD. COMPLEX IS >>MORE PAIN THAN GAIN. > > > > Having a mandated password length is however a weakness since anyone > with some insider knowledge will know how to configure his password > guessing program to only try passwords of the mandated length. > > Having variable password lengths means that the hackers don't know how > long a password will be and thus greatly increases the number of > attempts they must make before they get to the password. Allowing shorter passwords just allows you one more character in the character set (i.e. increases complexity by one), with the added restriction that the extra character, , can only occur at the end of the password. I don't think anyone has advocated fixed-length passwords, what they have advocated is longer passwords, e.i. increasing the minimum length, not instituting a maximum length. (For one customer system, I did once have to add a password filter that enforced a maximum length, due to stupid security requirements, but eventually they changed that. IIRC, the original requirement was that passwords be between 8 and 12 characters long, and they were adamant that 12 was a hard maximum! I think they didn't understand their own requirements, and the person/group who wrote them wanted to enforce a minimum length of at least 8 and preferably 12 characters, but this was expressed poorly and misinterpreted by others as a min/max.) -- John Santos Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:04:00 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de > (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > > > > >In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG > >writes: > > > >> The humor of the VMS team never ceases to amuse. > > > >My hovercraft is full of eels! > > > One of my faves was: What city, plez? Which meant nothing to me until someone here put it into context. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:34:18 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , "P. Sture" > writes: > > > > "At 31 characters long, my password is all but unhackable." One of my > > first Linux installations silently dropped characters at the end of > > passwords and only used the first 6 characters. OK that was back in > > 2000, but think about it... > > > > When I installed 0.99, passwd and login could handle long passwords, > but the FTP server couldn't. So I downloaded the ftp server code and > just tuncated the input at 8 characters. > > Yep, worked fine. I even tried some different 9th characters. Thinking back, it may have been 8 characters rather than the 6 I quoted, but the principle is the same. In fact, as recently as 2004, there was a problem in OS X and su only looking at the first 8 character: http://forums.macosxhints.com/archive/index.php/t-28552.html Out of curiosity I've just had a look at setting new passwords on OS X, and see that there is a Password Assistant, which will suggest passwords for you (I don't remember seeing this before, so it might have come as late as Tiger/10.4). The default settings here mean that the majority of the suggestions include a punctuation character. This is a potential nightmare for anyone using a non-English keyboard layout - screw up your keyboard settings, and you might be reaching for the installation CD to reset your password. Back to your FTP problem, the OS X Password Assistant dialogue appears to suggest that OS X allows a maximum password length of 31. I am now wondering what happens with FTP, SSH et al between VMS (32 characters according to the SYSUAF help) and OS X. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 06:14:43 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <5ly7GB$rnyMP@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <%HChj.26823$fj2.19868@edtnps82>, Malcolm Dunnett writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin evasion >> will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, where nothing >> will protect you. > > Well, encrypting your backups would at least slow the thief down. But the password used for that cannot be forced to /GENERATE :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:23:42 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <158d6dca-58e5-493e-b367-503f31dddfa0@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com> On Jan 11, 12:00 am, Kilgal...@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <9e570cc6-899d-4f7b-b5d1-4f650bf9a...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > > On Jan 8, 9:24 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm > > wrote: > >> Hold it ! > >> I know everything about all that. I was *specificaly* asking > >> about the builtin security of the *generated* passwords. > >> Nothing else... :-) > > > In some ways they're much safer as it avoids the problem of hackers > > guessing English words. That's the motivation. > > The motivation is also to keep users from using the same password on > multiple systems. > > > Tell "them", whoever they are: LONGER IS STRONGER. PERIOD. COMPLEX IS > > MORE PAIN THAN GAIN. > > But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin evasion > will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, where nothing > will protect you. But even with the backup, doesn't the hacker still have to crack the password? And if the password is long enough, say 15 chars, won't that take a prohibitively long time as suggested by the InfoWorld articles I posted? Anyway, on systems without break-in evasion (all others???), complexity isn't worth the pain. AEf AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:25:10 -0800 (PST) From: AEF Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: On Jan 11, 12:17 am, JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: > > Tell "them", whoever they are: LONGER IS STRONGER. PERIOD. COMPLEX IS > > MORE PAIN THAN GAIN. > > Having a mandated password length is however a weakness since anyone > with some insider knowledge will know how to configure his password > guessing program to only try passwords of the mandated length. > > Having variable password lengths means that the hackers don't know how > long a password will be and thus greatly increases the number of > attempts they must make before they get to the password. According to the InfoWorld articles I posted, if the password is long enough, it can take a prohibitively long time to crack. And look at his contest. He posted information about the passwords hackers wouldn't normally have! Please read the articles. AEF ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:00:10 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <388cd57c-024e-4525-af23-c5e1439d3bcd@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > How about a 15-char or longer password? Wouldn't (or shouldn't!) that > be okay? When you change your password on my VMS systems, you will pass through my password policy image. I've never seen a generated password fail. I will root out things the security experts haven't thought about. And nothing that gets by my code will fail the VMS built in dictionary lookup, but I've left that enabled anyhow. Well, OK, I don't bother with that image on my hobbyist systems. And I agree longer passwords are more effective than multiple character sets, provided one still has to pass appropriate string checks. Don't allow memberofcongress on the hill. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:02:34 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <47866AC5.8010806@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > You get three guesses before you're locked out! Subsequent attempts > merely increase the amount of time during which even the correct > password will fail. Under these circumstances, "cracker programs" have > a tough job! You do if the system mangler doesn't disable that, or worse. But those "strong passwords" are meant to protect UNIX, Windows, ... (systems that may not have affective password management and breakin evasion). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:05:49 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <+XNdqwkU4ibv@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <5un87jF1ib37qU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Truncated the input where? If passwd created encrypted strings for > passwords longer than 8 characters there is no way that the ftpd > could take 8 characters encrypt them and have it match what was in > the password file. Now, if you mean you truncated all passwords to > 8 characters that is something totally different. But I have to admit > to being baffled how ftpd could be using different password code than > passwd or login. Unless you were running static binaries built on > incompatable systems. Truncated the input before passing to crypt(), which ftpd did all on its own, then compared the result to the field in /etc/passwd (this was 0.99, I hope it's better now). ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:06:27 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <47866B56.90304@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> In article <4783f26b$0$15789$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >> >>>The syetem gererated passwords require the user write them down on a >>>post-it note that is permanently attached to their monitor. >> >> >> Not in our facilities. You WILL memorise that generated password. >> > > And if you believe that, I can offer you a great deal on a well known > New York City bridge! I believe that post-it note will end your employment. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:09:28 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > The motivation is also to keep users from using the same password on > multiple systems. > I don't unserstand that. If I have a passowrd that follows the "string password" rules, what keeps me from using it on multiple systems? ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 08:10:35 -0600 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <4786ee9e$0$16170$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: > AEF wrote: > >> Tell "them", whoever they are: LONGER IS STRONGER. PERIOD. COMPLEX IS >> MORE PAIN THAN GAIN. > > > Having a mandated password length is however a weakness since anyone > with some insider knowledge will know how to configure his password > guessing program to only try passwords of the mandated length. > > Having variable password lengths means that the hackers don't know how > long a password will be and thus greatly increases the number of > attempts they must make before they get to the password. Having longer passwords greatly increases the time needed to guess right. Having a minimum size is not the same as having a fixed size. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:12:49 +0100 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <5ly7GB$rnyMP@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > In article <%HChj.26823$fj2.19868@edtnps82>, Malcolm Dunnett > writes: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > > >> But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin evasion > >> will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, where nothing > >> will protect you. > > > > Well, encrypting your backups would at least slow the thief down. > > But the password used for that cannot be forced to /GENERATE :-) Even if it did, wouldn't you end up writing it down somewhere? "Sorry, we can't read these 4 year old backups because we don't have the password any more" :-) -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 14:34:10 GMT From: billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <5upd32F1j5pbhU1@mid.individual.net> In article <+XNdqwkU4ibv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5un87jF1ib37qU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> Truncated the input where? If passwd created encrypted strings for >> passwords longer than 8 characters there is no way that the ftpd >> could take 8 characters encrypt them and have it match what was in >> the password file. Now, if you mean you truncated all passwords to >> 8 characters that is something totally different. But I have to admit >> to being baffled how ftpd could be using different password code than >> passwd or login. Unless you were running static binaries built on >> incompatable systems. > > Truncated the input before passing to crypt(), which ftpd did all > on its own, then compared the result to the field in /etc/passwd > (this was 0.99, I hope it's better now). Sounds like a security feature to me as it could not possibly ever match, unless you had a real password that was 8 characters or less. :-) If you mandated passwords longer than 8 characters no one would ever use ftp. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:51:37 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <47879089.8070702@comcast.net> Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin evasion >> will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, where nothing >> will protect you. > > > Well, encrypting your backups would at least slow the thief down. Wouldn't that slow down both your backups and restores? Mine were dreadfully slow already in spite of using a DLT7000 drive (close to the latest and greatest at the time). Wouldn't the generation and distribution of encryption/decryption keys be a nightmare? I'd hate to be trying to recover from a disaster AND trying to decrypt my backup tapes!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:58:59 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <47879243.6060502@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <47866AC5.8010806@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>You get three guesses before you're locked out! Subsequent attempts >>merely increase the amount of time during which even the correct >>password will fail. Under these circumstances, "cracker programs" have >>a tough job! > > > You do if the system mangler doesn't disable that, or worse. But > those "strong passwords" are meant to protect UNIX, Windows, ... > (systems that may not have affective password management and > breakin evasion). > A system mangler who disables breakin evasion (or worse) deserves anything that happens to him and/or his systems! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:06:09 -0500 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: <478793F1.9020409@comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <47866B56.90304@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Bob Koehler wrote: >> >>>In article <4783f26b$0$15789$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei writes: >>> >>> >>>>The syetem gererated passwords require the user write them down on a >>>>post-it note that is permanently attached to their monitor. >>> >>> >>> Not in our facilities. You WILL memorise that generated password. >>> >> >>And if you believe that, I can offer you a great deal on a well known >>New York City bridge! > > > I believe that post-it note will end your employment. > IF you find it!!!!!! I don't have to stick it to my monitor or the bottom of my keyboard! If you make it a contest, someone will contest with you! For some reason there are far more horse's asses that there are horses!! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 11:57:55 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: >> >> The motivation is also to keep users from using the same password on >> multiple systems. >> > > I don't unserstand that. If I have a passowrd that follows the > "string password" rules, what keeps me from using it on multiple > systems? If you are forced to use a generated password, you won't get the same one generated on two separate systems. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 12:07:43 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > And I agree longer passwords are more effective than multiple > character sets, provided one still has to pass appropriate > string checks. Don't allow memberofcongress on the hill. The effectiveness of longer passwords is limited, because all that is stored is a 64 bit hash. Presume a maximum 5 bits of entropy per character and that means anything beyond 13 characters is no harder to guess than something of less that 13 characters due to collisions. You don't need the user's password - just a password that works. (All guessing done with read access to SYSUAF from a backup tape, of course.) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 12:09:22 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <47866AC5.8010806@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >> You get three guesses before you're locked out! Subsequent attempts >> merely increase the amount of time during which even the correct >> password will fail. Under these circumstances, "cracker programs" have >> a tough job! > > You do if the system mangler doesn't disable that, or worse. But Organizations that care do periodic reviews to detect such malfeasance. http://www.ljk.com/ljk/ljk_security.html ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 12:25:52 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article <9e570cc6-899d-4f7b-b5d1-4f650bf9a382@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > On Jan 8, 9:24 am, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm > wrote: >> Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: >> >> In many places in the VMS docs one is recomended >> >> to use the /GENERATE option of SET PASS (or the >> >> correspending flag in SYSUAF). What is the current >> >> view of these generated passwords ? How safe are they >> >> against hacking/probing/directory-attacs ? >> >> >> Jan-Erik. >> >> > The generated passwords are as safe and secure as any other passwords. >> >> > Passwords are not the problem! Users are the problem!! >> >> Hold it ! >> I know everything about all that. I was *specificaly* asking >> about the builtin security of the *generated* passwords. >> Nothing else... :-) > > In some ways they're much safer as it avoids the problem of hackers > guessing English words. That's the motivation. No. In my opinion, that's not the primary motivation. You defeat dictionary-based brute force attacks by reducing the rate at which the adversary can test his password guesses. You do that by using breakin evasion mode and login failure auditing. The primary motivation for generated passwords is to stop your users from selecting passwords that are so weak that a brute force search attack isn't needed. It stops your users from using "password". It stops your users from using the same password on every system they use. It stops your users from using "password1", "password2", "password3", etc and having a crack reveal not just the one password but the user's password selection scheme as well. > But it also increases > the odds that users will write down the passwords. Then the danger > with that depends on how dangerous the people who walk by are! Yes. That is a down side. Hence the motivation for things like tokens. > Cracking programs, I assume, start with easy things like patterns of > letters and numbers and various combinations of English words. There's a danger in assuming that all attacks will proceed by brute force search that is not tuned to the correct search space. > Tell "them", whoever they are: LONGER IS STRONGER. PERIOD. COMPLEX IS > MORE PAIN THAN GAIN. TheQuickBrownFoxJumpsOverTheLazyDog/Jan2008 Entropy in that password once you guess the password generation scheme is almost negligible. Given a 90 day password expiration policy you could brute-force the key space in four tries. Neither a requirement for complex passwords nor a requirement for long passwords accomplishes the goal of having unpredictable passwords. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:27:44 GMT From: Tad Winters Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in news:ut2TZT1alcNx@eisner.encompasserve.org: [..snip..] > But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin > evasion will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, > where nothing will protect you. Simple solution: Never backup the user authorization file to media that will leave the facility without first being physically destroyed. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jan 2008 12:50:17 -0600 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Security level of SET PASS /GENERATE ? Message-ID: In article , Tad Winters writes: > Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in > news:ut2TZT1alcNx@eisner.encompasserve.org: > > [..snip..] > >> But for reasonable values on VMS, that doesn't matter. Breakin >> evasion will protect you, except in the case of backup tape theft, >> where nothing will protect you. > > Simple solution: Never backup the user authorization file to media that > will leave the facility without first being physically destroyed. 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For more information about the SMS Mobile Marketing Login: http://www.vfirst.com/smes_soho.php ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:50:31 -0800 (PST) From: "mb301@hotmail.com" Subject: UCX 4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX Message-ID: <04ebf001-eceb-4ecb-8c52-6f39b0ff36cd@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> Please could someone tell me where to download UCX V4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX I know its very old... but we have an even older VAX..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:11:45 +0100 From: palmipede Subject: Re: UCX 4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX Message-ID: <478740e4$0$15254$426a74cc@news.free.fr> mb301@hotmail.com a écrit : > Please could someone tell me where to download UCX V4.2 ECO4 FOR VAX I > know its very old... but we have an even older VAX..... > On the "old" australian site, which is not longer updated (but it is fine for this "old" patch) http://ftp.support.compaq.com.au/pub/patches/vms/vax/v7.0/ucx/4.2/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:42:54 +0100 From: Albrecht Schlosser Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <7sbk55-3m1.ln1@news.hus-software.de> Christoph Gartmann wrote: > In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> Christoph Gartmann wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? >>> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( >>> >>> Regards, >>> Christoph Gartmann >>> >> How about MOUNT /FOR > > Tried that and copied something onto it. This destroyed the FAT file system. > >> If there's something on the stick that you want on your VMS system, try >> plugging the stick into a Windows box and FTPing the file(s). > > It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I > would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think > of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB > approach would be much nicer ;-) If you have access to the Cygwin tools on Windows, then you could try to pack your file(s) in a zip file, copy them with dd to the USB stick, mount this stick /FOR on the VMS system, and $ COPY the contents to a file called something.zip. Then, unzip this file. That's what I would try to do. Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:57:15 +0100 From: Albrecht Schlosser Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <3nck55-e82.ln1@news.hus-software.de> Albrecht Schlosser wrote: > If you have access to the Cygwin tools on Windows, then you could try to > pack your file(s) in a zip file, copy them with dd to the USB stick, > mount this stick /FOR on the VMS system, and $ COPY the contents to > a file called something.zip. Then, unzip this file. > > That's what I would try to do. Adding one important note to my own posting: Caution: This would destroy everything on the USB stick including any partition table or FAT file system. The USB stick would be used as a "raw" device. Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:55:28 -0000 From: "John Wallace" Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <13of4bk934jaje1@corp.supernews.com> "Albrecht Schlosser" wrote in message news:7sbk55-3m1.ln1@news.hus-software.de... > Christoph Gartmann wrote: > > In article <4785169A.3050601@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >> Christoph Gartmann wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? > >>> The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it :-( > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> Christoph Gartmann > >>> > >> How about MOUNT /FOR > > > > Tried that and copied something onto it. This destroyed the FAT file system. > > > >> If there's something on the stick that you want on your VMS system, try > >> plugging the stick into a Windows box and FTPing the file(s). > > > > It is the other way round. The OpenVMS box has no network connection and I > > would like to retrieve a file from this box. The only other way I can think > > of, is to pull the disk out and put it into some other VMS box. The USB > > approach would be much nicer ;-) > > If you have access to the Cygwin tools on Windows, then you could try to > pack your file(s) in a zip file, copy them with dd to the USB stick, > mount this stick /FOR on the VMS system, and $ COPY the contents to > a file called something.zip. Then, unzip this file. > > That's what I would try to do. > > Albrecht Is there a reason one couldn't do something functionally equivalent to this, but without needing Cygwin (or even ZIP), just by using MOUNT /FOREIGN and BACKUP to/from a sequential saveset on the USB stick? $ mount /foreign dna1: $ backup thefileineed.dat thesaveset.sav /sav $ dismount dna1: ... move stick to other box, reverse procedure, job done????? What have I overlooked? John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:24:23 -0500 From: "Mike Minor" Subject: Re: USB-stick Message-ID: <13of61r1hbeku2f@corp.supernews.com> -- "Christoph Gartmann" wrote in message news:fm2tsn$p5o$1@news.belwue.de... > Hello, > > is it possible to mount a FAT formatted 1 GB USB-stick under OpenVMS 8.3? > The device is recognized as DNA1: but I can't figure out how to mount it > :-( > > Regards, > Christoph Gartmann > > -- > Max-Planck-Institut fuer Phone : +49-761-5108-464 Fax: -452 > Immunbiologie > Postfach 1169 Internet: gartmann@immunbio dot mpg dot de > D-79011 Freiburg, Germany > http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html If you can make a terminal connection to your VMS system, try using a PC with a terminal emulation package that supports kermit transfer. Then connect the USB drive to the PC, connect to the VMS system and use kermit to transfer the file from the VMS system to the USB-stick. Then if you need to put those files on another VMS system, connect to the other VMS system and send the files back.... ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2008.022 ************************