INFO-VAX Tue, 28 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 472 Contents: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Hanging TNA ports. Re: Hanging TNA ports. Re: Hanging TNA ports. Re: Hanging TNA ports. Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Integrity Workstations? Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) What'd you do in the war Grand-dad? (was Re: Itanium Port Question) Re: What'd you do in the war Grand-dad? (was Re: Itanium Port Question) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 04:41:56 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Message-ID: <1188301316.368006.186330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Aug 27, 7:33 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <13d3pv3rp0rn...@corp.supernews.com>, > Mark Daniel writes: > > > > > > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> In article <07082521421814_2022C...@antinode.org>, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: > > >>>From: wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) > > >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" htrootxxx.zip > >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" opensslwasdxxxx > > >>>>>>well, it should read > > >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" htrootxxx.zip > >>>>>>$ set def [.ht_root] > >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" [-]opensslwasdxxx > > >>> My question would be, 'Why the quotation of "-v"?' I can see why > >>>"-V" might need quotation, but not "-v". > > >> Absent quotation marks, DCL will upcase letters. > > > The C-RTL complicates that by ensuring the command-line arguments passed > > to main() have been lower-cased hence quoting preserves upper-case. > > Can't blame that in C's Unix heritage. On Unix it would have been left > alone, as it should be!! :-) > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves > b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include - Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - unix should be sent up with the next space shuttle and left there ... then it could watch the hubble run by a real OS ... VMS ... ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 12:12:39 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Message-ID: <5jihpnF3t06icU1@mid.individual.net> In article <1188301316.368006.186330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > On Aug 27, 7:33 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <13d3pv3rp0rn...@corp.supernews.com>, >> Mark Daniel writes: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> >> In article <07082521421814_2022C...@antinode.org>, s...@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) writes: >> >> >>>From: wins...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Alan Winston - SSRL Central Computing) >> >> >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" htrootxxx.zip >> >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" opensslwasdxxxx >> >> >>>>>>well, it should read >> >> >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" htrootxxx.zip >> >>>>>>$ set def [.ht_root] >> >>>>>>$ unzip "-v" [-]opensslwasdxxx >> >> >>> My question would be, 'Why the quotation of "-v"?' I can see why >> >>>"-V" might need quotation, but not "-v". >> >> >> Absent quotation marks, DCL will upcase letters. >> >> > The C-RTL complicates that by ensuring the command-line arguments passed >> > to main() have been lower-cased hence quoting preserves upper-case. >> >> Can't blame that in C's Unix heritage. On Unix it would have been left >> alone, as it should be!! :-) >> >> bill >> >> -- >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves >> b...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. >> University of Scranton | >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include - Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > unix should be sent up with the next space > shuttle and left there ... then it could watch > the hubble run by a real OS ... VMS ... Boob, There is no VMS ON the Hubble and even the ground systems dumped VMS in favor of Unix around 1994. And if you really want to see how well VMS did in the few jobs it had just search the web and read some of the documents!! From a "Lessons Learned" presentation: "And we should be rid of VMS by the end of the year..." Note the "rid of". Doesn't sound like like the comment of a satisfied customer to me. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 07:25:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Message-ID: In article <1188301316.368006.186330@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > unix should be sent up with the next space > shuttle and left there ... then it could watch > the hubble run by a real OS ... VMS ... There is neither UNIX nor VMS on board HST. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 07:28:36 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Message-ID: In article <5jihpnF3t06icU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > There is no VMS ON the Hubble and even the ground systems dumped VMS in > favor of Unix around 1994. VMS is alive and well in ground support for HST. The customer has always been pleased with VMS, but did pay Gartner to tell them to get off of it. The UNIX based replacement plan had to be modified to be a UNIX and Windows replacement plan well before it was done due to cost, and the UNIX part since had to be replaced bacause Gartner didn't tell this customer that the UNIX vendor was going under much faster than VMS. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 13:39:40 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Alan Winston, when are you correcting your WASD book? Message-ID: <5jimssF3rm2qcU1@mid.individual.net> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article <5jihpnF3t06icU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> >> There is no VMS ON the Hubble and even the ground systems dumped VMS in >> favor of Unix around 1994. > > VMS is alive and well in ground support for HST. The customer has > always been pleased with VMS, but did pay Gartner to tell them to > get off of it. The UNIX based replacement plan had to be modified to > be a UNIX and Windows replacement plan well before it was done due > to cost, and the UNIX part since had to be replaced bacause Gartner > didn't tell this customer that the UNIX vendor was going under much > faster than VMS. Apparently, as of 31 March 2004, Preston Burch the HST Program Manager disagrees with you. :-) Can you point out any available documents to support the idea that The HST Project has gone back to running VMS? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:29:39 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: <1188307779.404245.312270@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Thanks for the reply Robert :- > Did the system really power on? Were the fans running? Was the LED > idiot light lit up on the power supply? Yes, you here the fans wind up and then settle down each time I power on, and the power LED comes on. It actually seems to start better from cold than once I start cycling the power every 30 seconds or so. The failure scenario then proceeds with the two status LEDs sticking at '00' rather than counting down from 'FE' onwards. Nothing comes up on the terminal. > I've seen systems where the power supply didn't like to come on from a > cold start. Sometimes leaving it switched on (but "dead") for 10 > minutes or so, and then cycling the power, would bring them to life. See above comment - it appears to be the opposite. > For this configuration, you want the CONSOLE environment variable to be > SERIAL, i.e. > >>> SET CONSOLE SERIAL > > In this mode, missing keyboard/mouse result in "soft" test failures that > don't block progress. > Yes, I do see these 'soft' failures in the output on the terminal. > > I managed to install both OpenVMS 6.1 (the > > original disk received with the unit) and OpenVMS 8.3 (although this > > didn't boot, but probably due to the fact that I selected DECnet but > > don't have any thick/thin cables connected). > > Network cable problems would not keep VMS from booting. I can't think > of a case where it would even keep DECnet from starting. > > VMS V8.3 should boot just fine. What are the symptoms? You should be > getting some information on the console terminal. > After the VMS banner, I get a DECnet informational message and then no more output, no disk activity, and the halt button doesn't have any effect. > I haven't heard of the SROMs failing on these systems. If the SROM was > bad, it's very unlikely that you could get to the SRM console prompt. > (The >>> prompt.) The SROM code is loaded into the CPU's instruction > cache at power-up; it contains the first instructions the CPU executes. > Without SROM, you'd never find memory, or the console, or the firmware > ROM. > > Firmware ROM corruption is not unheard of, but it should be detected by > checksum and other problems. If you get console output, and no > ROM-related error messages, I'd assume the FW ROMs (there are two > physical ROM parts) are fine. > > > It is a standard x512 EEPROM. It has a > > sticker over the programming window (assuming it has one). Is there a > > battery backed module that could be causing intermittent problems? > > The NVRAM in this system is integrated into the clock module. If the > system is retaining date and time, and the environment variables, after > you unplug it for a while, the battery in the module is probably fine. I don't remember having any issues with the date being wrong, except initially setting it when installing VMS. > You're well past the 10-year battery life of the module, but if the > system spent most of its life powered on, the battery is probably not > depleted. I failed to mention that occassionally on a 'successful boot' (in the sense that I get to the chevron prompt) the boot messages contain the following error: > ASIC ?? 002 0020 > T-ERR-ASIC COREIO > address = f0080280 > data read = 0 > data exp = aaaaaa The status leds display 'EF'. Having looked this up in the service manual this appears to indicate a problem with the IO module. The possible solutions include reseating the system module and the IO module, both of which I have done. Even though this system only cost me 5 GBP I would love to get it running purely because it is such an astounding piece of engineering. All the fans are shock mounted, the hard drive is also shock mounted, when you open the motherboard side of the case there are literally *no* cables whatsoever, the power supply simply slots out (after removing power cables) and apart from the SCSI cables there are a couple of short power cables and that is it. A work of art I would have said! Many thanks, Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:50:31 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: urbancamo wrote: > [...snip...] > Even though this system only cost me 5 GBP I would love to get it > running purely because it is such an astounding piece of engineering. Mark, out of curiosity, did you get this machine from me ? I'll be releasing another couple of machines into the hobbyist community in a few weeks (3000-600 and others). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:59:48 -0700 From: urbancamo Subject: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: <1188309588.174643.257550@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com> R.A.Omond wrote: > urbancamo wrote: > > [...snip...] > > Even though this system only cost me 5 GBP I would love to get it > > running purely because it is such an astounding piece of engineering. > > Mark, out of curiosity, did you get this machine from me ? No It came from a guy in Appleby in West Moreland. > I'll be releasing another couple of machines into the hobbyist community > in a few weeks (3000-600 and others). I also have a DEC 3000-600 which was bought for me by the University I was studying my PhD for - I managed to reclaim it last year. The '600 is working beautifully (OpenVMS, Digital Unix and OpenBSD). Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 08:50:50 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: DEC 3000/800 AXP boot problem Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2007 06:29:39 -0700, urbancamo = = wrote: > Thanks for the reply Robert :- > >> Did the system really power on? Were the fans running? Was the LED >> idiot light lit up on the power supply? > > Yes, you here the fans wind up and then settle down each time I power > on, and the power LED comes on. It actually seems to start better from= > cold than once I start cycling the power every 30 seconds or so. The > failure scenario then proceeds with the two status LEDs sticking at > '00' rather than counting down from 'FE' onwards. Nothing comes up on > the terminal. > >> I've seen systems where the power supply didn't like to come on from = a >> cold start. Sometimes leaving it switched on (but "dead") for 10 >> minutes or so, and then cycling the power, would bring them to life. > > See above comment - it appears to be the opposite. > >> For this configuration, you want the CONSOLE environment variable to = be >> SERIAL, i.e. >> >>> SET CONSOLE SERIAL >> >> In this mode, missing keyboard/mouse result in "soft" test failures t= hat >> don't block progress. >> > > Yes, I do see these 'soft' failures in the output on the terminal. > >> > I managed to install both OpenVMS 6.1 (the >> > original disk received with the unit) and OpenVMS 8.3 (although thi= s >> > didn't boot, but probably due to the fact that I selected DECnet bu= t >> > don't have any thick/thin cables connected). >> >> Network cable problems would not keep VMS from booting. I can't thin= k >> of a case where it would even keep DECnet from starting. >> >> VMS V8.3 should boot just fine. What are the symptoms? You should b= e >> getting some information on the console terminal. >> > > After the VMS banner, I get a DECnet informational message and then no= > more output, no disk activity, and the halt button doesn't have any > effect. > >> I haven't heard of the SROMs failing on these systems. If the SROM w= as >> bad, it's very unlikely that you could get to the SRM console prompt.= >> (The >>> prompt.) The SROM code is loaded into the CPU's instruction= >> cache at power-up; it contains the first instructions the CPU execute= s. >> Without SROM, you'd never find memory, or the console, or the firmwar= e >> ROM. >> >> Firmware ROM corruption is not unheard of, but it should be detected = by >> checksum and other problems. If you get console output, and no >> ROM-related error messages, I'd assume the FW ROMs (there are two >> physical ROM parts) are fine. >> >> > It is a standard x512 EEPROM. It has a >> > sticker over the programming window (assuming it has one). Is there= a >> > battery backed module that could be causing intermittent problems? >> >> The NVRAM in this system is integrated into the clock module. If the= >> system is retaining date and time, and the environment variables, aft= er >> you unplug it for a while, the battery in the module is probably fine= . > > I don't remember having any issues with the date being wrong, except > initially setting it when installing VMS. > >> You're well past the 10-year battery life of the module, but if the >> system spent most of its life powered on, the battery is probably not= >> depleted. > > I failed to mention that occassionally on a 'successful boot' (in the > sense that I get to the chevron prompt) the boot messages contain the > following error: > >> ASIC ?? 002 0020 > >> T-ERR-ASIC COREIO > > address =3D f0080280 > > data read =3D 0 > > data exp =3D aaaaaa > > The status leds display 'EF'. Having looked this up in the service > manual this appears to indicate a problem with the IO module. The > possible solutions include reseating the system module and the IO > module, both of which I have done. > > Even though this system only cost me 5 GBP I would love to get it > running purely because it is such an astounding piece of engineering. > All the fans are shock mounted, the hard drive is also shock mounted, > when you open the motherboard side of the case there are literally > *no* cables whatsoever, the power supply simply slots out (after > removing power cables) and apart from the SCSI cables there are a > couple of short power cables and that is it. A work of art I would > have said! > Try cleaning the temperature sensor. > Many thanks, > > Mark. > -- = PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:37:27 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Hanging TNA ports. Message-ID: Hi. I hope it's OK with a technical questions here also... :-) I have a problem where TNA ports suddenly hangs and "telnet /delete " does not work. The command itself does not hang, but the TNS device is still there. The port has lost it's connection to the term-server (it's used for some barcode reader that is "conneted" to an application though this TNA device). One can not either re-assign the ip-address and portnumner of the term server to the TNA device. The current "solution" when this happens is to asign a new TNA-number and restart the app using that TNA device. Now, what could get the "telnet /Delete" command to fail deleting the TNA device ? I've noticed that both $SHOW DEV and SDA> SHOW DEV says "Ref count 3". I *guess* that it's these reference counts that hangs the device, but I've no idea how to find out *who* is referencing the device. Anyting else I should check ? The system has close to 200 TNA ports, most of them working just well, but now and then (say once a week) a port gets stuck and the above happens. Best Regards, Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:20:01 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Hanging TNA ports. Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > I hope it's OK with a technical questions here also... :-) How dare you ! > I've noticed that both $SHOW DEV and SDA> SHOW DEV > says "Ref count 3". I *guess* that it's these > reference counts that hangs the device, but I've no idea > how to find out *who* is referencing the device. You can use ANA/SYS and SET PROC to the likely canditates (like your app) and do a SHOW DEV . You might find that this one process has 3 channels assigned to that device. And if you look at the code of the application, you might get a better idea of whether there is logic that improperly closes a device and assigns a new channel to it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:28:12 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: Hanging TNA ports. Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >> I hope it's OK with a technical questions here also... :-) > > How dare you ! > >> I've noticed that both $SHOW DEV and SDA> SHOW DEV >> says "Ref count 3". I *guess* that it's these >> reference counts that hangs the device, but I've no idea >> how to find out *who* is referencing the device. > > You can use ANA/SYS and SET PROC to the likely canditates (like your > app) and do a SHOW DEV . You might find that this one process has 3 > channels assigned to that device. > > And if you look at the code of the application, you might get a better > idea of whether there is logic that improperly closes a device and > assigns a new channel to it. The likely process is long "dead", of course. The TNA port is all that is left. Tha app has been restarted using a new TNA port (using the same IP/port destination). There is no problem with the new app/TNA combo. The problem is that the app can not be restarted usning the old TNA (that is "hanging"). I need a method to trace down those three "ref counts". Maybe I can run a SDA> SHO DEV on all procs to some file and try a few SEARCH'es... Regards, Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 16:50:56 +0100 From: "R.A.Omond" Subject: Re: Hanging TNA ports. Message-ID: Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > [...snip...] > > I need a method to trace down those three "ref counts". Maybe > I can run a SDA> SHO DEV on all procs to some file and try > a few SEARCH'es... Here are the commands you're looking for: $ anal/sys SDA> set out x.x SDA> show proc/chann all SDA> exit And then search x.x for your TNA device. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 07:23:04 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article , Dirk Munk writes: > > True, but the killing itself was the smallest part of the procedure. > Disposing of the bodies was the main problem, that is why the crematoria > and the gas chambers were in one building. This was a destruction > camp, build to kill and burn people on a massive industrial scale. Difficulties in disposing of the bodies does not sound like something that would inspire the Nazis to start providing food, water, and the like to their death camp prisoners. Much more likely they would have killed them anyway and looked for other means to deal with the bodies, even if they rotted in the open for a while. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 2007 07:00:24 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Integrity Workstations? Message-ID: In article , Rob Brown writes: > On the other hand I worked on a Y2K upgrade from RSX (PDP-11) to VMS > (Alpha) for a large process control application. We were able to > retain the DECtalk boxes because the DECtalk library had been ported > to VMS and was still available. My recollection is that the DECtalk library was on VMS from the first release of DECtalk boxes. Personally, I did not know it was on RSX. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:15:03 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: In article <79Gzi.337$Bv1.179@trnddc06>, John Santos writes: >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> In article , John Santos writes: >> >>>david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> >>>>In article , Ron Johnson writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: >>>>>[snip] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people >>>>>>believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still believe >>>>>>this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other >>>>>>way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned >>>>>>the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific >>>>>>disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed >>>>>>climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's >>>>> >>>>>The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer >>>>>orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific >>>>>orthodoxy. >>>>> >>>> >>>>Except of course thirty years ago the scientific orthodoxy was worrying about >>>>an imminent ice age. >>> >>>This statement is not true. In the late 70's a small minority of climate >>>scientists were speculating about this, but it was never "orthodoxy". >>> >> >> The prevailing opinion at that time was that the average interglacial lasted >> about 11000 years and since the start of the current interglacial was 11500 >> years ago we were rapidly approaching the onset of a new ice age. >> >> Later evidence from ice cores showed that interglacials could last much longer >> and it has been argued that the current interglacial may be more analagous to >> a previous one which lasted around 30000 years. >> >> see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4081541.stm >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/iceage_01.shtm >> >> http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/iceage.html >> >> and >> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174246/ >> >> So yes I think it is fair to say that the orthodoxy in the 1970s was that >> the next ice age was due. > >I think you are talking about something else. It was probably true that >the scientific orthodoxy may have been that "we're due" in the same sense >that we may be due for a large asteroid strike. (They average every X >years, and it has been order X years since the last one...) but when >global warming deniers talk about this, they are citing specific work >done in the 1970's that predicted an imminent Northern Hemisphere ice >age. But I am definitely NOT a global warming denier. My point was simply that global warming was not the orthodox position in the past and hence suggesting that global warming deniers are being unfairly treated because they are going against the current orthodox position is a preposterous argument. To make their case global warming deniers need to present enough credible evidence to change the mind of a large number of scientists. This is a tough job (an impossible job if they do not have credible evidence) but it is exactly the same job which was faced by those who championed global warming in the past. David Webb security team leader CCSS Middlesex University > That work was highly controversial at the time, and most climatologists >doubted it due to lack of data and lack of adequate understanding of the >underlying mechanisms and lack of suitable models. See the NAS/NRC 1975 >report on the subject, summarized in > >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University >> >> >> >>>"Orthodoxy" is of course a loaded word, since it means something entirely >>>different in science than it does in a religious context. >>> >>> >>> Global warming has only become the scientific orthodoxy >>> >>>>relatively recently. As you imply with your "peer review is the *perfect* >>>>guardian of scientific orthodoxy" science tends to be conservative and only >>>>changes to a new orthodox position when the evidence supporting the new >>>>position and undermining the old orthodoxy is fairly massive. >>>> >>>>David Webb >>>>Security team leader >>>>CCSS >>>>Middlesex University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Ron Johnson, Jr. >>>>>Jefferson LA USA >>>>> >>>>>Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >>>>>Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! >>> >>> >>>-- >>>John Santos >>>Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. >>>781-861-0670 ext 539 > > >-- >John Santos >Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. >781-861-0670 ext 539 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 14:17:33 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:07:00 -0700, wrote: > >> In article , "Tom Linden" >> writes: >>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:54:05 -0700, wrote: >>> >>>>> That is not accurate, the period of precession of the equinoxes is >>>>> 25,600 >>>>> years, IIRC, advancing one degree about every 70 years (perhelion >>>>> currently is >>>>> January 4) >>>>> >>>> The predominant astronomical cycle affecting glaciation for the last >>>> 800,000 years has been a 100,000 year cycle of ice ages punctuated by >>>> briefer >>>> usually 9000 - 12000 year long interglacials. There are a number of >>>> different >>>> astronomical cycles which acting together may explain this. I believe >>>> the >>>> interglacial can generally be thought of as lasting for about one half >>>> of the >>>> equinox precessional period (the exact length depending upon how all >>>> the >>>> cycles mesh together and probably also modulated by other >>>> non-astronomical >>>> factors). The variation caused by the precession of the equinoxes >>>> obviously >>>> occurs repeatedly during the 100,000 year period but only leads to >>>> interglacial >>>> conditions at the beginning/end of the 100,000 year cycle. >>>> However as indicated in some of the links below more recent findings >>>> from ice >>>> cores point to some interglacials having lasted much longer than half >>>> the >>>> equinox precessional period. >>> >>> >>> >>> Because there are a number of different repeating factors ( google >>> Milankovitch) >>> there is a beat phenomenon that can occur resulting in extremes. >>> I copied the following article which I think is well put together >>> http://www.kednos.com/physics/CLIMATOLOGY/ICEAGE.HTML >>> >>> Note the graph on insolation, the 100K period to which you refer is >>> clearly significant, >>> the 400K period is caused by perturbation of the earths orbit by >>> planetary >>> alignments >>> resulting in the eccentricity becoming as high as 0.04 (currently almost >>> circular, 0.01) >>> but also not that the last ice age in which the ice was several km thick >>> on northern Europe >>> was maybe 12000 years ago and that is outside the 100KA cycle. >>> >> >> I'm not sure then why you objected so strenuously to my statement that >> the last >> interglacial started about 11500 years ago (there are a number of >> different >> ways to measure when the interglacial started and hence figures from >> 10,000 >> upto 12,000 years ago are often quoted but I'm sure you can't have been >> objecting on that basis - The links I provided used all of those >> figures). >> >I don't think it was strenuous;-) In any event my reading of your post >left the >impression that ice ages occurred on 100KA cycle and all I was saying is >that it is >about every 26000 years. But then that may have been my misreading. >> Except complete glacial/interglacial cycles do NOT occur every 26000 years or last for just 26000 years ( or 21000 years see note). Results from cores show they have been occuring for the last 800,000 years on a cycle of about 100,000 years. Before that they were occuring on a cycle of about 41,000 years. (both of these periods are associated with Milankovitch cycles). The vast majority of the cycle being under glacial conditions with a comparatively short interglacial period. The cycle of the precession of the equinoxes appears to be a modifier of those dominant cycles rather than itself being the dominant cycle (and would be expected to be providing some contribution to warming the earth for half of the precession cycle and contributing to cooling for the other half. However apart from at the beginning/end of the dominant cycle this warming is not strong enough to cause an interglacial). ( note. In Milankovitch cycles the precession of the equinoxes cycle is the period of the precession of the equinoxes with respect to perihelion which is 21000 years rather than 26000 years see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes#Anomalistic_precession ) David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >> The only other thing you could have been objecting to was the statement >> that >> in the 1970s it was thought that interglacial's generally lasted about >> 11,000 >> years again the links provide adequate support for that statement. >> >> I'm also not sure what you mean by "outside the 100KA cycle" in your last >> remark. >> >> See >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/image:Ice_Age_Temperature.png >> >> for a diagram showing Antarctic temperature changes during the last >> several >> glacial/interglacial cycles over the past 450,000 years (unfortunately >> the date >> scale isn't linear - stretching out the recent past and compressing the >> more >> distant past). >> >> >> David Webb >> security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University >> >> >> >> >>> -- >>> PL/I for OpenVMS >>> www.kednos.com > > > >-- >PL/I for OpenVMS >www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:45:35 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: What'd you do in the war Grand-dad? (was Re: Itanium Port Question) Message-ID: Hi Paul, > Maybe there are a lot of instances of this out there, but I was taught > to word align integers back in VAX COBOL days. Oh really? Disk space was cheap back then was it? "Yes, me and Gungadin used to fill our disks with padding bytes; don't fire till you see the whites of their eyes; esprit de cour and all that." Cheers Richard Maher "P. Sture" wrote in message news:paul.sture.nospam-211A9E.02440928082007@mac.sture.ch... > In article <1188172138.417708.74290@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>, > FrankS wrote: > > > On Aug 26, 5:32 pm, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > Wouldn't alignment faults be more of a problem in Macro than in, > > > say, COBOL? > > > > This is a COBOL alignment fault ... > > > > 01 TOP-LEVEL. > > 03 DATA-ITEM-1 PIC X(1). > > 03 DATA-ITEM-2 PIC S9(9) COMP. > > > > Data-Item-2 is not on a natural boundary. This likely happens in lots > > and lots of places in many COBOL programs. I'm sure there's a ton of > > similar problems in programs I and many others have written over the > > years. > > Maybe there are a lot of instances of this out there, but I was taught > to word align integers back in VAX COBOL days. Having said that, I was > lucky enough to start with a "clean slate", as opposed to porting > existing COBOL from other platforms. > > IIRC VAX COBOL had compiler options for alignment too. > > Question:- > > Are there large alignment penalties on Itanium for COMP-3 data types > (packed decimal for non-COBOL readers)? > > -- > Paul Sture > > Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: > http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:30:04 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: What'd you do in the war Grand-dad? (was Re: Itanium Port Question) Message-ID: In article , "Richard Maher" wrote: > Hi Paul, > > > Maybe there are a lot of instances of this out there, but I was taught > > to word align integers back in VAX COBOL days. > > Oh really? Disk space was cheap back then was it? > Eh? What are you wittering on about Dickie? Consider a primary key of 17 bytes. Belongs at the beginning of an RMS record in my book. Find another variable that's only one byte long and it belongs next. Then you define yer integers. I did say word aligned, not longword or quadword aligned. > "Yes, me and Gungadin used to fill our disks with padding bytes; don't fire > till you see the whites of their eyes; esprit de cour and all that." Righty-ho, I'll tell Carruthers and Farqhuart. They'll hold the blighters off. PS. Has anyone here actually come across anyone actually named Carruthers or Farqhuart? I certainly haven't. PPS. In he early 1980s I inadvertently contributed to the Y2K problem, simply because I didn't believe an application would last so long. If you wish to compare an amortization of the disk costs of doing otherwise for 15+ years versus the one-off exercise that was Y2K, please feel free to do so. :-) -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.472 ************************