INFO-VAX Fri, 24 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 463 Contents: Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? RE: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Re: Question about FTP and filenames The DS10L Winner for August 2007 U.S. Report to Congress on Data Centers Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 23 Aug 2007 13:20:22 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <4RRXx25raeTv@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: >> >> No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= >> NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= >> implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= >> VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= >> different COBOL vendor. > > Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like > UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable > Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. If I were implementing a COBOL compiler, I wouldn't think the difference between using RMS calls or Berkely DB calls or VISION calls or whatever would be all that big a deal. If you're after cross-language support on a single operating system then RMS under VMS has some nice advantages. If you're after cross-platform support on a single programming language then something like VISION and AcuCOBOL might be of interest (if I understand things properly). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:47:36 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W932338734_5049_1187894856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: >> >> No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= >> NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= >> implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= >> VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= >> different COBOL vendor. > >Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like >UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable >Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. Boy, you can say *that* again! It is also one of the reasons that COBOL is so darn expensive on UNIX or non-VMS/non-Mainframe platforms. ----=_vm_0011_W932338734_5049_1187894856-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:50:16 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/23/07 12:19, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: >> No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= >> NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= >> implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= >> VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= >> different COBOL vendor. > > Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like > UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable > Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. Not at all. You just have to bring in your own file and transaction code. Get something like BDB, write your own, modify/extend BDB to suit your own purposes etc. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 16:02:47 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , Ron Johnson writes: > > Not at all. You just have to bring in your own file and transaction > code. Get something like BDB, write your own, modify/extend BDB to > suit your own purposes etc. Hm. Sounds like a PITA to me. Something the OS writers should have done. As a matter of fact, they may even work for the same company. And the work might be needed by Fortran, Ada, COBOL, ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:35:07 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/23/07 16:02, Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Ron Johnson writes: >> Not at all. You just have to bring in your own file and transaction >> code. Get something like BDB, write your own, modify/extend BDB to >> suit your own purposes etc. > > Hm. Sounds like a PITA to me. Something the OS writers should > have done. As a matter of fact, they may even work for the same > company. And the work might be needed by Fortran, Ada, COBOL, ... Well sure, that's the *optimum*. And actually, the (Linux) world, though, is heading in that direction with the GCC (which now means "GNU Compiler Collection" instead of GNU C Compiler). It's now simple to create language bindings for any shared library compiled with a GCC compiler. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 06:59:41 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: Hi Paul, Anyone know what this is good for: - http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/6393/6393pro_010.html#ref_661 And here's one that inserts a row into the Rdb MF_PERSONNEL database in the same ACID-proof 2PC as a client that is inserting a row into the NORTHWIND.employee table on Windows2000, Commit them all or roll them all back! (You might find the error handling useful, and you would use start_trans instead of start_branch) Cheers Richard Maher PS. The caps-lock key is on the left. **************************************************************************** ******** * * * COPYRIGHT (c) TIER3 SOFTWARE LTD. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. * * * * THIS SOFTWARE IS FURNISHED UNDER A LICENSE AND MAY BE USED AND COPIED ONLY * * IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SUCH LICENSE AND WITH THE * * THE INCLUSION OF THE ABOVE COPYRIGHT NOTICE. THIS SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER * * COPIES THEREOF MAY NOT BE PROVIDED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY * * OTHER PERSON. NO TITLE TO AND OWNERSHIP OF THE SOFTWARE IS HEREBY * * TRANSFERRED. * * * * THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE AND * * SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY TIER3 SOFTWARE LTD. * * * **************************************************************************** ******** identification division. program-id. tip_init. data division. working-storage section. 01 ss$_debug pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_debug. 01 ss$_abort pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_abort. 01 ss$_normal pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 sys_status pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. * 01 syi_item_list. 03 item_nodename. 05 pic s9(4) comp value 6. 05 pic s9(4) comp value external syi$_nodename. 05 pointer value reference local_node. 05 pointer value reference local_node_len. 03 pic s9(9) comp. * 01 syi_iosb. 03 syi_cond pic s9(9) comp. 03 pic x(4). * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * 01 debug_on pic x(1). 01 debug_commands. 03 cmd_len pic x(1) value x"25". 03 pic x(37) value "set language cobol; show process/full". * 01 sqlcode pic s9(9) comp. 01 db_spec. 03 pic x(20) value "alias pers filename". 03 db_filename pic x(30) value "mf_personnel". * 01 rdb$message_vector external. 03 rdb$lu_num_arguments pic s9(9) comp. 03 rdb$lu_status pic s9(9) comp. 03 rdb$alu_arguments occurs 18 times. 05 rdb$lu_arguments pic s9(9) comp. * linkage section. 01 t3_system_name pic x(8). 01 t3_buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. procedure division using t3_system_name, t3_buffer_size giving sys_status. 00. *+ * To assist a run-time decision as to whether or not to invoke debug * TIER3 has defined a local DCL symbol T3$DEBUG. This symbol is set * to the value specified by the system manager in the Tier3 Configuration * file ie: "Y" or "N". *- call "lib$get_symbol" using by descriptor "T3$DEBUG", debug_on giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. if debug_on = "Y" call "lib$signal" using by value ss$_debug, 1 by reference debug_commands. move t3_system_name to system_name. move t3_buffer_size to buffer_size. call "sys$getsyiw" using by value 0, 0, 0 by reference syi_item_list, syi_iosb by value 0, 0 giving sys_status. if sys_status = ss$_normal move syi_cond to sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. *+ * Connect to the database to make sure it's there and for 1st query performance. *- call "declare_connection_name" using sqlcode, db_spec. if sqlcode not = zeros call "sys$putmsg" using rdb$message_vector call "lib$stop" using by value ss$_abort. call "t3$setctx" using demo_context giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal go to fini. * fini. exit program. * end program tip_init. identification division. program-id. tip_logon. data division. working-storage section. 01 t3$k_decnet pic s9(9) comp value external t3$k_decnet. 01 t3$k_tcp_ip pic s9(9) comp value external t3$k_tcp_ip. 01 lib$_strtru pic s9(9) comp value external lib$_strtru. 01 ss$_normal pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 sys_status pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. * 01 remote_node_name pic x(31). 01 remote_user_name pic x(12). 01 remote_user_socket redefines remote_user_name. 03 remote_host_addr. 05 rha_1 pic x. 05 rha_2 pic x. 05 rha_3 pic x. 05 rha_4 pic x. 03 remote_port_num pic 9(9) comp. * 01 tcpip_rem_user_len pic 9(4) comp. 01 tcpip_rem_user pic x(21). * linkage section. * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * 01 transport_type pic 9(4) comp. * 01 remote_node_desc pic x(8). * 01 remote_user_desc pic x(8). * 01 local_user_desc. 03 lud_class_len. 05 lud_len pic 9(4) comp. 05 lud_class pic 9(4) comp. 03 lud_addr pic 9(9) comp. * 01 local_persona pic 9(9) comp. * procedure division using demo_context, transport_type, remote_node_desc, remote_user_desc, local_user_desc, local_persona giving sys_status. 00. call "lib$scopy_dxdx" using by reference remote_node_desc by descriptor remote_node_name giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal and lib$_strtru go to fini. call "lib$scopy_dxdx" using by reference remote_user_desc by descriptor remote_user_name giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal and lib$_strtru go to fini. call "lib$scopy_dxdx" using by reference local_user_desc by descriptor session_user giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal go to fini. *+ * Report the client association in the execution server's log file. *- display "Association with ", session_user(1:lud_len), " established". display "Transport = " transport_type with conversion. display "Rem node = " remote_node_name. display "Rem user = " no advancing. evaluate transport_type when t3$k_decnet display remote_user_name when t3$k_tcp_ip call "sys$fao" using by descriptor "!@UB.!@UB.!@UB.!@UB:!ZL" by reference tcpip_rem_user_len by descriptor tcpip_rem_user by reference rha_1, rha_2, rha_3, rha_4 by value remote_port_num giving sys_status if sys_status not = ss$_normal go to fini end-if display tcpip_rem_user(1:tcpip_rem_user_len) end-evaluate. call "t3$persona_assume" giving sys_status. * fini. exit program. * end program tip_logon. identification division. program-id. tip_recv. data division. working-storage section. 01 out_msg pointer value external out_msg. 01 ddtm$m_nowait pic 9(9) comp value external ddtm$m_nowait. 01 ddtm$_aborted pic 9(9) comp value external ddtm$_aborted. 01 t3$m_close pic 9(9) comp value external t3$m_close. 01 t3$m_now pic 9(9) comp value external t3$m_now. 01 t3$m_more pic 9(9) comp value external t3$m_more. 01 t3$m_oob pic 9(9) comp value external t3$m_oob. 01 t3$_chanclose pic 9(9) comp value external t3$_chanclose. 01 ss$_abort pic 9(9) comp value external ss$_abort. 01 ss$_normal pic 9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 sys_status pic 9(9) comp. * 01 sqlcode pic 9(9) comp. 01 rdb$message_vector external. 03 rdb$lu_num_arguments pic 9(9) comp. 03 rdb$lu_status pic 9(9) comp. 03 rdb$alu_arguments occurs 18 times. 05 rdb$lu_arguments pic 9(9) comp. * 01 sql_ctx. 03 pic 9(9) comp value 1. 03 pic 9(9) comp value 1. 03 pic 9(9) comp value 16. 03 db_tid pic x(16). 03 pic 9(9) comp. * 01 tip_tid pic x(16). 01 tip_bid pic x(16). * 01 dtm_iosb. 03 dtm_iosb_status pic 9(4) comp. 03 pic x(2). 03 reason_code pic 9(9) comp. * 01 tip_tm_url_rec. 03 pic xx value "11". 03 tip_tm_url_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 tip_tm_url pic x(128). * 01 abort_msg pic x(255). 01 out_len pic 9(4) comp. 01 comp_status. 03 pic x(2) value "22". 03 commit_flag pic x(1). * linkage section. * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * 01 msg_buff. 03 msg_type pic x(2). 03 pic x(508). 01 update_bal_msg redefines msg_buff. 03 pic x(2). 03 dept_name pic x(30). 03 tip_txn_url pic x(256). * 01 msg_size pic s9(9) comp. * 01 msg_flags pic s9(9) comp. * procedure division using demo_context, msg_buff, msg_size, msg_flags giving sys_status. kick_off section. 00. evaluate msg_type when "10" perform get_tm_url when "20" perform update_account_bal_push when other move ss$_abort to sys_status end-evaluate. if sys_status = t3$_chanclose move ss$_normal to sys_status. exit program. * get_tm_url section. 00. call "t3$tip_get_tm_url" using by descriptor tip_tm_url by reference tip_tm_url_len giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. add 4 to tip_tm_url_len giving out_len. call "t3$send" using by reference tip_tm_url_rec by value out_len, t3$m_close giving sys_status. * update_account_bal_push section. 00. call "t3$tip_url_to_tid" using by descriptor tip_txn_url of update_bal_msg(1:(msg_size - 32)) by reference tip_tid, tip_bid giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. call "sys$start_branchw" using by value 0, 0 by reference dtm_iosb by value 0, 0 by reference tip_tid by descriptor local_node(1:local_node_len) by reference tip_bid giving sys_status. if sys_status = ss$_normal move dtm_iosb_status to sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. * move tip_tid to db_tid. perform the_update. * call "t3$send" using by reference comp_status by value 3, t3$m_close giving sys_status. if sys_status = t3$_chanclose move "N" to commit_flag else if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. if commit_flag = "Y" perform commit_trans else perform abort_trans. * fini. * the_update section. 00. call "set_trans_rw" using sqlcode, sql_ctx. if rdb$lu_status not = ss$_normal call "sys$putmsg" using rdb$message_vector call "lib$stop" using by value ss$_abort. call "update_dept" using sqlcode, dept_name, sql_ctx. if rdb$lu_status not = ss$_normal move "N" to commit_flag call "sys$putmsg" using by reference rdb$message_vector by value out_msg, 0, 0 giving sys_status if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status end-if else move "Y" to commit_flag. * fini. * commit_trans section. 00. call "sys$end_branchw" using by value 0, 0 by reference dtm_iosb by value 0, 0 by reference tip_tid, tip_bid giving sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. * if dtm_iosb_status = ss$_abort if reason_code not = zeros call "sys$getmsg" using by value reason_code by reference out_len by descriptor abort_msg by value 0,0 giving sys_status if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status end-if display "Couldn't commit - " abort_msg (1:out_len) end-if else if dtm_iosb_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value dtm_iosb_status. * abort_trans section. 00. call "sys$abort_transw" using by value 0, ddtm$m_nowait by reference dtm_iosb by value 0, 0 by reference tip_tid by value ddtm$_aborted by reference tip_bid giving sys_status. if sys_status = ss$_normal move dtm_iosb_status to sys_status. if sys_status not = ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. * end program tip_recv. identification division. program-id. tip_logoff. data division. working-storage section. 01 iss$c_id_natural pic 9(9) comp value external iss$c_id_natural. 01 ss$_normal pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 sys_status pic s9(9) comp. * linkage section. * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * procedure division using demo_context giving sys_status. 00. display "Session completed with user ", session_user. move spaces to session_user. call "sys$persona_assume" using iss$c_id_natural, omitted giving sys_status. * fini. exit program. * end program tip_logoff. identification division. program-id. tip_fini. data division. working-storage section. 01 ss$_abort pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_abort. 01 ss$_normal pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. * 01 sqlcode pic s9(9) comp. * 01 rdb$message_vector external. 03 rdb$lu_num_arguments pic s9(9) comp. 03 rdb$lu_status pic s9(9) comp. 03 rdb$alu_arguments occurs 18 times. 05 rdb$lu_arguments pic s9(9) comp. * linkage section. * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * procedure division using demo_context giving ss$_normal. 00. display "Execution server shutting down". call "disconnect_db" using sqlcode if sqlcode not = zeros call "sys$putmsg" using rdb$message_vector call "lib$stop" using by value ss$_abort. exit program. * end program tip_fini. identification division. program-id. tip_int. data division. working-storage section. 01 ss$_normal pic s9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 link_lost pic x(1) value x"01". * linkage section. * 01 demo_context. 03 system_name pic x(8). 03 buffer_size pic 9(9) comp. 03 local_node pic x(6). 03 local_node_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 session_user pic x(12). 03 persona_context pic 9(9) comp. * 01 interrupt_msg pic x(16). * 01 interrupt_type pic 9(9) comp. 88 system_msg value external t3$k_system. 88 user_msg value external t3$k_user. * procedure division using demo_context, interrupt_msg, interrupt_type giving ss$_normal. 00. if (system_msg and interrupt_msg(1:1) = link_lost) display "Link to client has been lost". exit program. * end program tip_int. identification division. program-id. out_msg. *+ * Send Rdb error messages back for output in VB-Net message window. *- data division. working-storage section. *+ * If you're using DECnet you can initialize send_flags = * TIER3 will tell DECnet to group your messages so that your client application * receives a single record. (TCP/IP is obviously stream oriented) *- 01 send_flags pic 9(9) comp value external send_flags. 01 t3$m_now pic 9(9) comp value external t3$m_now. 01 t3$_chanclose pic 9(9) comp value external t3$_chanclose. 01 ss$_abort pic 9(9) comp value external ss$_abort. 01 ss$_normal pic 9(9) comp value external ss$_normal. 01 sys_status pic 9(9) comp. *+ * Intel and Alpha are same endian so just send it as an integer. *- 01 reply_hdr. 03 error_id pic xx value "88". 03 error_len pic 9(4) comp. * linkage section. * 01 msg_desc. 03 msg_len pic 9(4) comp. 03 msg_class pic 9(4) comp. 03 msg_addr pointer. * procedure division using msg_desc giving ss$_abort. 00. move msg_len to error_len. call "t3$send" using reply_hdr by value 4, send_flags giving sys_status. if sys_status = ss$_normal call "t3$send" using by value msg_addr, msg_len, t3$m_now giving sys_status. if sys_status not = t3$_chanclose and ss$_normal call "lib$stop" using by value sys_status. * fini. exit program. * end program out_msg. "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:fajppt$4g0$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi Paul, > > "933B" looks strange. As someone else already suggested, you need to create > a log file with $MC LMCP. The other thing you need to do is look for this > logical: - DECDTM$INHIBIT and if it's set to true then set it to false and > re-run the startup. You won't need the XG startup as that's for the XA > Gateway which is only of interest if you want your RMS updates controlled by > some sort of XA monitor like Tuxedo. (The XA Veneer on the other hand (that > doesn't need a seperate process) is useful if you want to update Orrible > Oracle on VMS in the same 2PC as your Rdb, RMS (and possibly Windows SQL > Server) databases. > > I still don't know why people persist in saying that VAX COBOL does not > support commit/rollback verbs when the pointer to the docs that I posted > previous seems to show that it does? No matter; now that I know what you're > doing I'm intrigued! > > I love VMS (always will) I love seeing stuff ported to VMS; the more the > better! Having said that, who the hell is giving you funding for this crap? > Keep it on IBM and just change the incontinence nappies every now and then > (works for VMS engineering :-) > > OK we are where we are: - What database exactly was the COBOL talking to on > IBM? DB2? Or a Codasyl compliant database? VISAM? I thought (not knowing > anything at all about IBM) that all the CICS stuff used precompilers and had > EXEC-SQL in the code everywhere. > > What about all the JCL? How do you intend to backup your data? You may have > RUJ functionality but what about AIJ functionality and roll forward to point > in time? Does it get distributed anywhere? Data wharehouses? > > Look I'm sure you thought all this through and I wish you well, but if you > want cheap, leave it on IBM. If you want to do it right then re-write it on > VMS. Me? I'd go Rdb *every* time, despite the poisonous, self-serving , > oligarchic gravy-train that is currently running it into the buffers. > > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. Here's a web site where you can often hear from Jim Johnson if you miss > him, and can also reminisce about what it was like to be in a living > development environment: - > > http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=388&SiteID=1 > > Digital had it way back when :-( > > PPS> There used to be an RPG II compiler on PDPs don't know if it ever made > it to VMS. > > "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message > news:000301c7e532$25d7be90$71873bb0$@com... > > > > [SNIP SNIP SNIP] > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:11 PM > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > > > > [SNIP] > > > > Hey Richard, do you have a pointer to how to turn this DDTM *on*? > > I have found: > > DDTM$XA_SHUTDOWN.COM;1 DDTM$XA_STARTUP.COM;1 > > DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.COM;1 DECDTM$SHUTDOWN.COM;1 > > DECDTM$STARTUP.COM;1 > > > > and ran the DECDTM$STARTUP.com script, which seems to have succeeded. Also > > ran the DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.com > > script, and they *seem* to be running. > > > > Marked a test file with SET FILE/RU_JOURNAL and it seems to report itself > > correctly. > > > > Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > > > > Ran the example script, created the files and still get the same error > code. > > I do not know if it is a license thing or not. Show license finds the > > following lines, so I think it is licensed. > > > > DTM DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > > 31-JUL-2008 > > RMSJNL DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > > 31-JUL-2008 > > > > I cannot find any startup files or stuff with *RMS* in the name to run or > > whatever. > > > > I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal manual > was > > clear that DECdtm has to be > > running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? > Thanks -Paul > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:02:54 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson >> wrote: >> >>> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file >>> handling >>> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of >>> the >>> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though >>> it is >>> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for >>> the new >>> spec coming out... >> >> Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics. > > Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks. > That would be PL/I BTW, you obviously know little about programming languages. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:19:45 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <00c601c7e5ec$dba2f180$92e8d480$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 6:04 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > Hi Paul, > Thanks, between you and Alex that absolutely targeted the problem. Works great right now. :) > I still don't know why people persist in saying that VAX COBOL does not > support commit/rollback verbs when the pointer to the docs that I > posted > previous seems to show that it does? No matter; now that I know what > you're > doing I'm intrigued! > > I love VMS (always will) I love seeing stuff ported to VMS; the more > the > better! Having said that, who the hell is giving you funding for this > crap? > Keep it on IBM and just change the incontinence nappies every now and > then > (works for VMS engineering :-) > Funding is from me, myself, and my wife. One reason why I need to make sure it will work on the cheap. We do have some alternatives, but none of them are quite as cool as the small Itanium packages available from HP, and well - VMS is pretty nice. Different, but nice. > OK we are where we are: - What database exactly was the COBOL talking > to on > IBM? DB2? Or a Codasyl compliant database? VISAM? I thought (not > knowing > anything at all about IBM) that all the CICS stuff used precompilers > and had > EXEC-SQL in the code everywhere. > Depends on the customer of course, it can be DB/2, Oracle, AdaBASE, or a few others. I tend to prefer CICS and VSAM files for most things, and DB/2 for everything else. DB/2 is built for performance on the mainframe, and it shows. CICS does use a precompiler, but if you use the database, you are just using the database; little or no recourse to CICS. VSAM access, on the other hand, is serialized in CICS and can cross regions easily. EXEC CICS READ etc. CICS (or Transaction Server, to use it's now 10 year old "new" name... :) is really how you run interactive programs on z/OS, since z/OS itself is not the worlds most interactive environment. Foreground compiles are frowned upon, to say the least. VMS is so interaction it seems almost chaotic at times, or perhaps just libertarian? > What about all the JCL? How do you intend to backup your data? You may > have > RUJ functionality but what about AIJ functionality and roll forward to > point > in time? Does it get distributed anywhere? Data wharehouses? > The (so far very small) Data Warehouse and business intelligence processing takes advantage of DB/2 almost entirely. It is not a terribly important part to port immediately, and is scheduled for porting after I have gotten much further through than I have right now. JCL isn't so much of a big deal in an interactive environment; it looks like an awful lot of that can be setup for interactive sessions via DCL, and what little cannot, can be handled with standalone DCL programs (.COM files?) Backup and so forth are issues I have to address. In the very lowest end market, it ain't much of a problem. Stick a DVD in there once a week or so, and a tape per day. At the high end, the local system programmers will take care of it. But in the middle regions, from the modest little small business up to the midsize companies, it can become an issue. I am thinking of taking an appliance approach, or selling remote services for backup, or something. I don't have a good plan there. Open to ideas! > Look I'm sure you thought all this through and I wish you well, but if > you > want cheap, leave it on IBM. If you want to do it right then re-write > it on > VMS. Me? I'd go Rdb *every* time, despite the poisonous, self-serving > , > oligarchic gravy-train that is currently running it into the buffers. > It ain't cheap on the IBM. Just to run zSeries today, you have to spend close to $700K, and that's usually before software costs. Would you believe that 5 years ago, you could entry level for a mere $60K? Or even less. (*sigh*) If you move everything to iSeries (AS/400) or pSeries (RS/6000) yeah, it gets cheaper. $14K - $18K entry on the iSeries, and 4K to 9K entry on the RS/6000. But - iSeries programs are very different, and mainframe style programs do *not* port all that well. (Well, the screens do...) On the RS/6000, you spend more time building the tools to build the tools to build the tools than you do getting anything done, unless of course, you are willing to mortgage your future to MicroFocus or some other $400/user solution. Yuck. VMS has the unique distinction of being available on Tiny machines all the way up to near mainframe class machines. And is a rich operating systems with a very high class, if wordy when you make an error, COBOL compiler. I'm excited about it, and know I need to move this to Itanium, but being cheap, I think I will do a porting event thing as soon as I have enough ported, working, and tested on the little Alpha here. The only issue with the Alpha is that the 4mm tape drive on it does not seem to be recognized. No big matter - source gets backed up to disk 3 times per day, and FTP'ed off to the UNIX machine which *does* know how to talk to tape. Tapes go into the library, the safe, and my lower left hand desk drawer at my "day" job! Thanks again for the advice and help! _Paul > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. Here's a web site where you can often hear from Jim Johnson if you > miss > him, and can also reminisce about what it was like to be in a living > development environment: - > > http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=388&SiteID=1 > > Digital had it way back when :-( > > PPS> There used to be an RPG II compiler on PDPs don't know if it ever > made > it to VMS. > > "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message > news:000301c7e532$25d7be90$71873bb0$@com... > > > > [SNIP SNIP SNIP] > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:11 PM > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > > > > [SNIP] > > > > Hey Richard, do you have a pointer to how to turn this DDTM *on*? > > I have found: > > DDTM$XA_SHUTDOWN.COM;1 DDTM$XA_STARTUP.COM;1 > > DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.COM;1 DECDTM$SHUTDOWN.COM;1 > > DECDTM$STARTUP.COM;1 > > > > and ran the DECDTM$STARTUP.com script, which seems to have succeeded. > Also > > ran the DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.com > > script, and they *seem* to be running. > > > > Marked a test file with SET FILE/RU_JOURNAL and it seems to report > itself > > correctly. > > > > Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > > > > Ran the example script, created the files and still get the same > error > code. > > I do not know if it is a license thing or not. Show license finds the > > following lines, so I think it is licensed. > > > > DTM DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > > 31-JUL-2008 > > RMSJNL DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > > 31-JUL-2008 > > > > I cannot find any startup files or stuff with *RMS* in the name to > run or > > whatever. > > > > I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal > manual > was > > clear that DECdtm has to be > > running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? > Thanks -Paul > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:31:56 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <00cb01c7e5ee$8f0eafb0$ad2c0f10$@com> Wow - I freely admit to ignorance on this - I've always (in the IBM world) seen it written as PL/1, with an arabic "1" instead of a Roman Numeral "I". They *are* the same language are they not, or are they different? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson > wrote: > > > On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote: > >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file > >>> handling > >>> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part > of > >>> the > >>> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, > though > >>> it is > >>> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for > >>> the new > >>> spec coming out... > >> > >> Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics. > > > > Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks. > > > That would be PL/I BTW, you obviously know little about programming > languages. > > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMS > www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:19:38 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:31:56 -0700, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Wow - I freely admit to ignorance on this - I've always (in the IBM > world) > seen it written as PL/1, with an arabic "1" instead of a Roman Numeral > "I". > They *are* the same language are they not, or are they different? > Yes. Even on IBM gear it is the Roman numeral. > -Paul > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.company] >> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:03 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? >> >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:25:52 -0700, Ron Johnson >> wrote: >> >> > On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote: >> >> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file >> >>> handling >> >>> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part >> of >> >>> the >> >>> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, >> though >> >>> it is >> >>> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for >> >>> the new >> >>> spec coming out... >> >> >> >> Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics. >> > >> > Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks. >> > >> That would be PL/I BTW, you obviously know little about programming >> languages. >> >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMS >> www.kednos.com > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:09:16 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <46CE2FBC.AEAFC00F@spam.comcast.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > > In article <46CCE489.38A33AB4@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > > > Post the output of SHOW DEVICE E and maybe we can figure out where NETCONFIG > > made an invalid assumption. (ESA0: doesn't sound right for a VLC - I'd have > > expected EWA0: and EWA-0, but it's been a while). > > I don't think he's seeing a NETCONFIG.COM bug, I think the poster was > right about this being an issue with having some other protocol > started prior to DECnet Phase IV trying to change the physical > address. Oops! Yes, you're quite right. I missed that in the error message text... Apologies... -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:03:24 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187892204.789756.284980@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 1:19 pm, "FredK" wrote: > wrote in message > > news:1187829941.906578.232570@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com... > > > > > > > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > >> Example-3, everyone today loves the King James Version but it appears > >> that this book is based upon a 12th century manuscript that just might > >> have been the worst choice for a bible (but there were not many others > >> available in Western Europe at the time) > > >> Food for thought: If the bible is the inspired word of God then why > >> did he allow all these people to mess around with it? Or, from what I > >> can see (I just finished reading the book) he seems to have gone out > >> of his way to make sure we can never get a glimpse of the original > >> text. > > > well these links seem to shot holes in your misguided theory ... > > >http://odyssey.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html > > >http://theologos.net/NTpapyrus.html > > >http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=72 > > Arrgh. First of all, the "Bible" consists of more than just the New > Testament. Second of all, the only site you quote that has any form of > objectivity is the first one at Duke - and it dates the earliest papyrus > examples of New Testament writing at between 150 and 200 years ACE. In fact > it agrees that the earlier English translations of those writings were > flawed and were not improved until the late 19th century and again in the > mid-20th. Nor does it deal with nuance of meaning when translating the > words in their context of (say) 1st or 2nd century Greek into 21st century > English. Have you ever read the original Sheakspear? Chaucer? > > Interestingly, all of these "sources" appear to start with the premise that > the New Testament was originally written in Greek - and if that is the case > then I am left to wonder why if Jesus and his disciples spoke Arameric - why > they can draw any conclusion that the GREEK writing was written either first > person, or by someone who was a contemporary of the writer. It is far more > likely to be the codification of oral history several generations removed > from the time of Christ. OTOH - some things may well BE transcriptions of > actual letters written in Greek. Which neither proves or disproves the > "truth" of their content. > > Nor does any of this address why the books in the New Testament qualify for > inclusion in the Bible - and other books from the same periods were banned > from the Bible. So ignoring transliteration problems with Arameric, Greek, > German and English - the entire editing process of what *is* and what *is > not* the inspired or literal word of God is suspect as humans made political > and theological decisions as to what should be orthodoxy in the Church... > and different splinter groups of Christianity have over time removed and > added things as they saw fit - for example the book of Mormon. > > Lastly, it doesn't matter. You believe what you want to. Be it the Bible > or the Qu'ran. No amount of evidence to support or disprove it matters - it > is a matter of faith. If your faith leads to you believe things that to > most people make you a fool - like the age of the earth being 5000 years - > then so be it. > > So. > > Bob: Give it up. Proof of your beliefs can't be found in the writings of > men. The existance of God has yet to be proven - otherwise you would not > need faith to believe. Please try to refrain from using this forum to > convert the heathen - there are many better ways to do that - and to follow > the commands of Christ. > > Neil: Come on man - no need to poke Bob with a stick just for fun. If > things are slow, I can point out a lot of really wacky sites that you can > waste huge amounts of time in.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - the apostles such as Paul travelled to many countries including Greece and spoke the language ... No, the apostles did not write the Gospels, but others did and somewhere along the line it got written in Greek ... how do you or anyone else know the exact sequence of events ... the writings are close enough that God must approve or He would have done something about it ... the only ones who are changing the bible are the ones who do not like what it says ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:03:45 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187892225.547013.242790@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 10:55 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 22, 9:06 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > Any idiot can set up a website which can be used by others as proof. > It is hardly what any rational person would accept as peer-reviewed > literature. > > Why not try reading the book "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who > Changed The Bible and Why" (which was peer-reviewed by the way) then > get back to me. The proof laid out in this book shows that a majority > of very early Biblical manuscripts are different. If you're going to > believe in something you had better be aware of the warts and all. > > p.s. as an aside, reading the book has not changed "MY" belief in > Christianity. In fact, it has cleared what I saw as a few > inconsistancies. YMMV > > NSR the only ones who are changing the bible are the ones who do not like what it says ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:00:06 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: wrote in message news:1187892204.789756.284980@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 23, 1:19 pm, "FredK" wrote: > > the apostles such as Paul travelled to many countries > including Greece and spoke the language ... > > No, the apostles did not write the Gospels, but others > did and somewhere along the line it got written in > Greek ... how do you or anyone else know the > exact sequence of events ... the writings are close > enough that God must approve or He would have > done something about it ... > Oh, gee. I guess I stepped into this... but what the heck. How come he hasn't "fixed" the Qu'ran? Or the Book of Mormon? But you ask a perceptive question: "how do you or anyone else know the exact sequence of events". Think about that for a second. Heck, we can speculate that the entire New Testament was the outcome of a freshman year Greek Lit class. That is the point. Right, wrong, brilliant, stupid, inspired, literal - we don't "know". We don't know if God approves or dissaproves of it - since he has pretty much stopped making in-person appearances and delivering new stone tablets. It is a matter of faith. > the only ones who are changing the bible are the > ones who do not like what it says ... > Now, now Bob. Please. We know that both the Old and New Testaments *have* changed over time. First translation IN ITSELF can change the meaning. Second we know that there were several major revisions made to the New Testament in the 19th and 20th centuries - in fact you referenced an authority on that. Common sense should tell you that words are not static and cannot be perfectly translated - the meanings and phasing is in a context of the writer of the text and his understanding of the world and culture around him - to interpret the meanings requires more than linguistic talent - and no two translators consistently achieve the same translation. The writings in the Bible are the words of Men, not of God. Those who wrote them, and some who read them may believe they are the inspired Word of God - yet they often betray all-to-human failings - like Paul the nutjob who lived two centuries after Christ and created much of the Christian mythology and orthodoxy and who had some real problems with woman and sex - among other things. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 16:04:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <8fIzgiSNK1o5@eisner.encompasserve.org> In article <1187892204.789756.284980@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > the only ones who are changing the bible are the > ones who do not like what it says ... > Which the record shows dates back to the earliest copies. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:23:54 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/23/07 14:00, FredK wrote: [snip] > > Now, now Bob. Please. We know that both the Old and New Testaments *have* > changed over time. First translation IN ITSELF can change the meaning. > Second we know that there were several major revisions made to the New Which is why old Muslims are smart to make young Muslims (no matter their ethnicity) learn Arabic, so that they can read the Koran in the original language. [snip] > > The writings in the Bible are the words of Men, not of God. Those who wrote > them, and some who read them may believe they are the inspired Word of God - > yet they often betray all-to-human failings - like Paul the nutjob who lived > two centuries after Christ and created much of the Christian mythology and A smart guy like you should *know* that Paul died in the mid-60s. Either 64CE or 67CE. > orthodoxy and who had some real problems with woman and sex - among other > things. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:52:01 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187905921.845564.204480@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 9:32 am, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > On Aug 22, 10:55 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > are you dense? The sites show they found pieces > of New testament that date anywhere from just after > John to the first century ... and those writings translate > to what the bible is now ... so you wish to continue to > deny God and His words, that is not my problem, it's > yours ... the proof is there as always with everything > in the bible, whether you wish to accept it is another > thing ... > You had better check the peer-reviewed sources. There are no (none, zero) original manuscripts of the new testament going back to the original authors. The earliest gospel written was Mark which most bible scholars think was written between 70-80 AD. If you agree that Jesus died in 30 AD at the age of 33, then the gospels were being handed on via an oral mechanism for at least 40 years before someone decided to put it into writing. Copies of the copies of originals exist but all have major to minor variations. So-called gnostic gospels only serve to increase the confusion. The book I read showed instances where scribes made documented changes to "reduce the importance of women in the church" while other changes seem to indicate the beginnings of anti-semitism (made me think about some of Mel Gibson's points of view) It is almost like God does NOT want us to have access to the original texts. NSR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:14:53 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: "Ron Johnson" wrote in message news:LVmzi.282679$LE1.156547@newsfe13.lga... > > A smart guy like you should *know* that Paul died in the mid-60s. > Either 64CE or 67CE. > Smart? Not likely. Yes, to correct what I wrote - Paul (Saul of Tarsus) is believed to have died in Rome in between 65 and 67CE (in his late 50's) by beheading - around the same time as Peter (Simon IIRC). The earliest reference I can find to a reference to a reference to his writings dates to about 110CE. Most sources place the earliest copies of the documents at around 200CE - or at least that is what I remembered as I was writing it and the date stuck in my head for some reason (old age and senility). But there is little doubt that Paul existed and wrote a lot of "stuff" that may or may not be the inspired word of God. Of course, he still was a nutjob and the architect of much of the Catholic tradition and beliefs - and did not have first hand knowledge of Christ. He helped stone the first Christian Martyr. He "converted" sometime between age 25 and 30 after having been a pretty nasty guy - his conversion was due to his being blinded, and then cured by a follower of Christ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:05:37 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/23/07 17:14, FredK wrote: > "Ron Johnson" wrote in message > news:LVmzi.282679$LE1.156547@newsfe13.lga... > >> A smart guy like you should *know* that Paul died in the mid-60s. >> Either 64CE or 67CE. >> > > Smart? Not likely. Yes, to correct what I wrote - Paul (Saul of Tarsus) is > believed to have died in Rome in between 65 and 67CE (in his late 50's) by > beheading - around the same time as Peter (Simon IIRC). The earliest > reference I can find to a reference to a reference to his writings dates to > about 110CE. Most sources place the earliest copies of the documents at > around 200CE - or at least that is what I remembered as I was writing it and > the date stuck in my head for some reason (old age and senility). But there > is little doubt that Paul existed and wrote a lot of "stuff" that may or may > not be the inspired word of God. We agree on that... > Of course, he still was a nutjob and the architect of much of the Catholic > tradition and beliefs You're probably thinking of Augustine of Hippo. > - and did not have first hand knowledge of Christ. He > helped stone the first Christian Martyr. He "converted" sometime between > age 25 and 30 after having been a pretty nasty guy - his conversion was due > to his being blinded, and then cured by a follower of Christ. > > > -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:06:51 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <46CE2F2B.C5F86570@spam.comcast.net> Tom Linden wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:09:40 -0700, wrote: > > > Being prepared to suffer and die for your faith doesn't imply any > > validity to > > that faith just that you believe in it very strongly. > > It suggests a psychosis. Eh, I don't know as I'd go quite that far until the subject turns to homicide bombers and other terrorists. (They're usually called "suicide" bombers; but, homicide is their actual intent. Their own death is merely incidental.) At the risk of sounding like I'm defending anyone, I can't help thinking about the early Christians facing the lions and other horrible fates. Surely, these innocents did nothing to deserve to die that way. THEY were truly martyrs, dying for their chosen convictions, and "convicted" of nothing worthy of death. ...not to mention other true cases of persecution, such as the persecution inflicted upon the innocent by homicide bombers and other terrorists. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:14:57 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/23/07 16:52, Neil Rieck wrote: [snip] > > Copies of the copies of originals exist but all have major to minor > variations. So-called gnostic gospels only serve to increase the > confusion. The book I read showed instances where scribes made > documented changes to "reduce the importance of women in the church" Maybe that (amount of variation)is part of why they were not chosen for the canon... > while other changes seem to indicate the beginnings of anti-semitism > (made me think about some of Mel Gibson's points of view) > > It is almost like God does NOT want us to have access to the original > texts. Since there is no person deity who traipses around doing miracles, that's pretty much a moot point. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:19:06 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Message-ID: <_Ylzi.32$H91.9@newsfe12.lga> In article <5j5rbpF3sv1a5U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > >In article , > Malcolm Dunnett writes: >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> >>> If you want to know about nasty, being that you are a relative newcomer >>> to comp.os.vms, I suggest you research one Carl J. Lydick. While c.o.v. >>> sometimes gets hostile and vituperations fill the threads, it is nothing >>> at all like the when Carl would chime in with his castigatory vitrolic >>> rhetoric! >> >> Carl was also a great resource and could be very helpful if you >> asked what he deemed a worthy question. All things considered I >> miss Carls postings. >> >> Lets not forget Ehud Gavron either, there was a time when c.o.v. >> flamage was rated in units called the Gavron. > >Now there is a name I haven't seen in a dog's age although I still often >wonder what became of him. One of the last times I saw Ehud in person was at one of the last national DECUS events -- TGV was still a company then. I heard he sold a domain name (wallstreet.com) for a significant amount of money and is now living on easy street... figuratively. A google search of Ehud Gavron and wallstreet.com shoudl turn up some articles. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:13:12 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Message-ID: <46CE30A8.9A46E94D@spam.comcast.net> Mark Daniel wrote: > > Hello again Bob. > [snip] Well, at least we know now why he's been so quiet lately... Thanx for keeping his attention focused elsewhere, even if just for a brief while. I can understand your frustration. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:17:19 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Message-ID: <46CE319F.1D3EBC56@spam.comcast.net> ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: > > On Aug 23, 6:56 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > > I ask you a simple polite question and I get a smartass > response ... [snip] Bob, Do you REALLY enjoy interacting with people in this way? If your remarks draw a very different response from what you expect, please consider the possible source of the issue. You won't want to believe that the source can be found in the mirror, but please consider the possibility. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:00:15 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: <1187906415.892942.62720@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 8:38 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , Bob Willard writes: > > Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being > a plumber without a crack. > I'm still thinking about this one :-) NSR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:01:20 -0400 From: Chuck Aaron Subject: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. However, this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this command with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas where the job must run). The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to select the option which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that will not create any security issues. If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have in mind that once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to run the command file manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. Any ideas? Thanks in Advance. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:14:11 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: <1187892851.535223.327200@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 2:01 pm, Chuck Aaron wrote: > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in Advance. why don't you just write the request to a file that the priviledged job looks for and grabs the request from the file and processes it ... if this were dibol cgi routines, you could even have the two programs pass messages to each other to run the request and notify the requesting job of its completion ... if you are limited to dcl cgi, then you can pass the requests back and forth in a file ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:20:33 +0200 From: Albrecht Schlosser Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: Chuck Aaron wrote: > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? Install an image with privileges (CMKRNL) that does nothing else than to "submit the command with another /user= ****** ". You could also let one process (of the privileged user) create a mailbox and wait for a message that the other (unprivileged) user is allowed to write into the mailbox. The privileged user's process would the be able to submit the command or execute it by itself. Albrecht ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:19:35 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: <46cdcfc4$0$25482$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 23-8-2007 20:01 Chuck Aaron wrote... > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in Advance. > Create a program in a VMS language of your choice. This program contains one line of code: a call to LIB$DO_COMMAND with the $SUBMIT /USER command you need. compile and link this image, and INSTALL it with CMKRNL privilege and any other privs needed to acces the DCL command file. Your website causes a RUN of this image in an otherwise unpriv'd account. /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 12:06:19 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: <1187895979.766152.246870@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 2:01 pm, Chuck Aaron wrote: > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in Advance. Chuck, Having done this in the past. I have done it one of two ways: - One client wanted to be able to do this from a captive command procedure, I wrote an executable which was installed with the privileges needed to do SUBMIT/USER - The other client wanted something that could be called from within a program from less controlled accounts. The solution was the same technique, in a different flavor. Shareable image installed with the needed privilege. In both cases, the capability was guarded in two ways: - ACL on the batch file, AND - possession of a separate rights identifier guarding the ability to submit under the specified Username (e.g., SUBMIT_SYSTEM) Obviously, one can elaborate this approach in other ways to ensure that the user is not able to do what he/she should not do. The key to this is to use rights identifiers to extend the concept of privilege bits. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:42:42 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: <46CE0D62.3030100@comcast.net> Chuck Aaron wrote: > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in Advance. > CMKRNL is one of those privileges that's classified as "ALL". If you have CMKRNL you can change mode to kernel and do ANYTHING! ANYTHING, of course, includes the ability to dink with your privilege mask and give yourself any other privileges you might want. It is definitely a security risk! I would suggest something like a restricted account with the required privileges and a LOGIN.COM that runs the required job and logs off again. Defenses can be built into the account or LOGIN.COM so that the job can only be run during a restricted time period or only on particular days of the week, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:24:34 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: Hi Chuck, > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). Can you please tell me whether or not the username that you wish to run the batch job under is the same as the "only (1) particular user id accessing the web page." and that you're doing all this in an attempt to get around the inherent bullshit architectural deficiencies of that HTTP/webserver connectionless/stateless pile of pooh? Would you be interesetd in a VMS server process being able to *without any privileges* assume the client's persona (and whatever rights and privileges given to that persona by the system manager) whilst performing work on that pre-authorized client's behalf. Would you be interested in avoiding Session Hijacking and dodgy cookies, session IDs and trying to embed connection-state information in web-pages? Cheers Richard Maher PS. If you go the Installed image route then you may want to ask how you restrict Execute access to it to you "only 1" specific user. "Chuck Aaron" wrote in message news:faki1g$bj4$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > I have a complex dcl command file that must be submitted under a particular > user id's priv's and process quotas...no exceptions. > > On a web page, a selection can be added to a page to submit this command > file on demand from only (1) particular user id accessing the web page. > However, > this user must be to se;ect this option that will internally submit this > command > with /user=****** (the user that has all the priv's and proc quotas > where the job must run). > The problem is, I don't want to give the user CMKRNL to be able to > select the option > which will submit the command with another /user= ****** unless that > will not create any > security issues. > > If I do not go the route of the CMKRNL priv's, what ideas might you have > in mind that > once the user selects the option it will notify the privileged user to > run the command file > manually. I'd like to automate this and make it the simplest way possible. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks in Advance. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:13:04 +0200 From: Wilm Boerhout Subject: Re: Processing Ideas Needed: Message-ID: <46ce68f1$0$25476$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl> on 24-8-2007 1:24 Richard Maher wrote... > Hi Chuck, [snip] > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. If you go the Installed image route then you may want to ask how you > restrict Execute access to it to you "only 1" specific user. Bob G. has explained this: put an ACL on the executable file, and issue the pertaining identifier only to that one user. /Wilm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:53:46 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Message-ID: <%Ikzi.234338$5y.177154@newsfe18.lga> On 08/23/07 12:02, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: >> In article , >> JF Mezei wrote: >> >>> From a MAC, I ftp to a vms box, and then issue: >>> >>> SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png >>> >>> The file that gets created on VMS is: >>> >>> _Users_JFMEZEI_Desktop_vt500_parser.png;1 >>> >> Ooh! So it does. >> >>> Would it be correct to state that it is the MAC's fault for not removing >>> path information from the filename being sent to the remote FTP server ? >> You are giving it the full path by specifying ~/ >> >> I you do a CD ~/Desktop >> >> first, followed by the SEND, then no problem. >> > > Or just say: > > SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png parser.png What's the difference between SEND and PUT? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 18:58:30 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Message-ID: <5j63mmF38ok0hU1@mid.individual.net> In article <%Ikzi.234338$5y.177154@newsfe18.lga>, Ron Johnson writes: > On 08/23/07 12:02, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> "P. Sture" writes: >>> In article , >>> JF Mezei wrote: >>> >>>> From a MAC, I ftp to a vms box, and then issue: >>>> >>>> SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png >>>> >>>> The file that gets created on VMS is: >>>> >>>> _Users_JFMEZEI_Desktop_vt500_parser.png;1 >>>> >>> Ooh! So it does. >>> >>>> Would it be correct to state that it is the MAC's fault for not removing >>>> path information from the filename being sent to the remote FTP server ? >>> You are giving it the full path by specifying ~/ >>> >>> I you do a CD ~/Desktop >>> >>> first, followed by the SEND, then no problem. >>> >> >> Or just say: >> >> SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png parser.png > > What's the difference between SEND and PUT? send local-file [remote-file] A synonym for put. I used SEND in my example because he used SEND in his question. I have never used send myself, always put. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:17:55 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: The DS10L Winner for August 2007 Message-ID: And the winner is Roy Omond (Blue Bubble Ltd) Congratulations ! -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:15:24 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: U.S. Report to Congress on Data Centers Message-ID: All, On a semi-related note, here is a link to the Aug 2, 2007 report to Congres= s on the projected impact of data centers and future power considerations. Very interesting read that really substantiates why so many Customers are n= ow looking at Server and Data Center consolidation. It also explains the huge increase= in "green" or more environmentally friendly data centers. http://tinyurl.com/2jz3ft (Report to Congress on Server and Data Center Ene= rgy Efficiency) http://preview.tinyurl.com/2jz3ft (preview) Here is interesting extract: (pg. 7) "Under current efficiency trends, national energy consumption by servers an= d data centers could nearly double again in another five years (i.e., by 2011) to more tha= n 100 billion kWh (Figure ES-1), representing a $7.4 billion annual electricity cost. The= peak load on the power grid from these servers and data centers is currently estimated t= o be approximately 7 gigawatts (GW), equivalent to the output of about 15 baselo= ad power plants. If current trends continue, this demand would rise to 12 GW by 2011= , which would require an additional 10 power plants." Regards, Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:28:05 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: Bob Koehler wrote: > In article , Dirk Munk writes: >> So yes, there are respectable scientists who do not believe the present >> theories on the cause of global warming. However in the present >> situation it is hardly possible to have a meaningful discussion on this >> subject. > > The best evidence I've seen shows that much of our current warming > is natural and some of it is man made. I still think we ought to > take what action we can about the part we're contributing. The > ratio of natural to man made seems to be shifting and we don't need > to rush things. > That is a very sensible point of view. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:59:48 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:50:00 -0700, AEF wrote: > I don't see people defending well-established facts with nonsense like > thermometers next to chimneys or like those Web sites that Boob posted > claiming evolution violates the Second Law. > So why can't any naysayers come up with something better? > I assume you're going with the "they're right for other reasons" I > alluded to above, but this would be the first time I've seen nonsense > used to defend a "reasonable position" (for lack of my ability to come > up with a better phrase). I still don't understand what you are driving at nor how you associated me with that. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:49:30 GMT From: Bob Harris Subject: Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Message-ID: In article <1187871599.745428.93710@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com wrote: > I've recently acquired an old Alphaserver 800 that I intend to run VMS > on. My only other machines in the house are Apple Macs, none with > built in serial ports. I do however own a few null modem cables and am > in the process of buying a USB serial adapter, with the view to > running the Alphaserver headless in a closet (the other half is not as > big a fan of old VMS boxes as I am, unfortunately) and simply using a > Macbook Pro, a USB - serial adapter and a null modem cable to do any > necessary console work. > > So my questions more or less come to this: > - Which USB serial adapter do you recommend? Not all of them seem Mac > compatible > - Which serial port on the Alphaserver do I plug the null modem cable > into? > - Anything special that needs to be done in the SRM to make all this > work? > > Finally, can anyone recommend a terminal program for OS X that does > serial and works decently with VMS (esp. EVE). Try zterm But I would only suggest using the serial port to do console stuff, like that >>> prompt stuff. For using EVE, I would suggest firing up Mac OS X X11 (optional install from the Mac OS X 10.4 installation DVD). Then using the xterm that is started when you launch X11 run the command: ssh -X Alphas.address.mumble Now you start a DECwindows DECterm session with its display sent back to your Mac. I haven't started a DECwindows sessions since '95, so I can no longer remember the command for doing this, but I'm sure someone else here will know. But using Mac OS X and X11 is do every day, I just happen to be talking to Linux systems these days :-D Bob Harris > Thanks in advance, > > Sampsa Laine ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:43:41 GMT From: John Santos Subject: Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG says... > In article <1187871599.745428.93710@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes: > > > > > >I've recently acquired an old Alphaserver 800 that I intend to run VMS > >on. My only other machines in the house are Apple Macs, none with > >built in serial ports. I do however own a few null modem cables and am > >in the process of buying a USB serial adapter, with the view to > >running the Alphaserver headless in a closet (the other half is not as > >big a fan of old VMS boxes as I am, unfortunately) and simply using a > >Macbook Pro, a USB - serial adapter and a null modem cable to do any > >necessary console work. > > > >So my questions more or less come to this: [snip] > > >- Which serial port on the Alphaserver do I plug the null modem cable > >into? > > Depends. If you want to use it as the console, then plug it into the > console port. If you can't figure out which, connect it at 9600 baud > with the Alpha powered up. If you see the >>>, you're found its con- > sole. I believe that the port marked 1 and two arrows on the AS 800 > is the console port when the console environment variable is not set > to graphics. > This depends on the particular AlphaServer model. I've not had an AS800, so Brian is surely correct about it, but in general this isn't a surefire technique to identify the console. I had a recent annoying experience with an ES40 system at a customer site 3000 miles away... (No wonder they put dozens of video cameras on the space station...) It has, IIRC, two DB9 ports and one MMJ port. At least one of the DB9's is a functioning console when you're talking to SRM (the console firmware), but once VMS starts booting, it uses only the "real" console, which was the MMJ. This particular Alpha had been powered off long enough that it couldn't remember what time it was and was prompting for the date and time, but the customer couldn't see it. All they knew was it wasn't booting. I think it is generally true, at least for the newer systems, if they have multiple serial ports, all of them can talk to SRM, but VMS uses the "right" one exclusively. (Once they succeeded in booting it, and VMS has enabled logins, they could log in from the "wrong" serial ports, but you don't see the OPCOM messages there, nor other system startup messages. If "$ show terminal" reveals it to be OPA0:, you've got the right port, if it's TTA0: or TTA1: or TTB0:, it's the wrong port.) [snip] -- John ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.463 ************************