INFO-VAX Thu, 23 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 462 Contents: Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: COBOL Transactions? Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Re: is this a race condition? Re: is this a race condition? Re: is this a race condition? Re: is this a race condition? Re: is this a race condition? Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Re: Question about FTP and filenames Re: Question about FTP and filenames Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:43:27 -0700 From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <1187858607.535331.73810@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On 22 Aug, 18:53, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > Suggestions have ranged from using RMS Journaling, to the HP transaction manager, to using a database for transaction managemen. All of these suggestions would mostly likely work, but they add cost. I have no idea of the magnitude of that cost though. I'm also trying to avoid adding a database because of the overhead (physcial and management) as well as the cost. > > Does anyone have a rough idea just how much cost the RMS or transaction manager solution adds to the end user on a small machine? Assuming I pass it on to the end-user directly "at cost." RMS Journaling is included in the NET-APP-SUP-400 license bundle on Alpha, this came with or was an option with some Alphas. On Itanium, it's included in the EOE (Enterprise) and MCOE (Mission Critical) operating enviornments. With the real entry level FOE (Foundation) operating environment it can be added on it's own as an extra, on I64 I do not believe the RMSJNL license would be a big cost. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 01:43:35 -0700 From: "AlexNOSPAMDaniels@themail.co.uk" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <1187858615.925683.109410@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> On 23 Aug, 04:03, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > and ran the DECDTM$STARTUP.com script, which seems to have succeeded. Also > ran the DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.com > script, and they *seem* to be running. > > Marked a test file with SET FILE/RU_JOURNAL and it seems to report itself > correctly. > > Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > > Ran the example script, created the files and still get the same error code. > I do not know if it is a license thing or not. Show license finds the > following lines, so I think it is licensed. > > DTM DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > RMSJNL DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > > I cannot find any startup files or stuff with *RMS* in the name to run or > whatever. > > I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal manual was > clear that DECdtm has to be > running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? Thanks -Paul You might not have a log file, "$mc lmcp help create_log *" Alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:05:29 GMT From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jan-Erik_S=F6derholm?= Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: Paul Raulerson wrote: > Drat -which is of course why Hoff suggested mySQL. > $20K/processor is just too much additional overhead > for the majority of the market I want to target. One need to know the "history". Not long ago (before Oracle bought Rdb) the *runt-time* version of Rdb was free/included on VMS. So one could distrubute Rdb based applications to any numner of client sites without any additional costs. Jan-Erik. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:04:23 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: Hi Paul, "933B" looks strange. As someone else already suggested, you need to create a log file with $MC LMCP. The other thing you need to do is look for this logical: - DECDTM$INHIBIT and if it's set to true then set it to false and re-run the startup. You won't need the XG startup as that's for the XA Gateway which is only of interest if you want your RMS updates controlled by some sort of XA monitor like Tuxedo. (The XA Veneer on the other hand (that doesn't need a seperate process) is useful if you want to update Orrible Oracle on VMS in the same 2PC as your Rdb, RMS (and possibly Windows SQL Server) databases. I still don't know why people persist in saying that VAX COBOL does not support commit/rollback verbs when the pointer to the docs that I posted previous seems to show that it does? No matter; now that I know what you're doing I'm intrigued! I love VMS (always will) I love seeing stuff ported to VMS; the more the better! Having said that, who the hell is giving you funding for this crap? Keep it on IBM and just change the incontinence nappies every now and then (works for VMS engineering :-) OK we are where we are: - What database exactly was the COBOL talking to on IBM? DB2? Or a Codasyl compliant database? VISAM? I thought (not knowing anything at all about IBM) that all the CICS stuff used precompilers and had EXEC-SQL in the code everywhere. What about all the JCL? How do you intend to backup your data? You may have RUJ functionality but what about AIJ functionality and roll forward to point in time? Does it get distributed anywhere? Data wharehouses? Look I'm sure you thought all this through and I wish you well, but if you want cheap, leave it on IBM. If you want to do it right then re-write it on VMS. Me? I'd go Rdb *every* time, despite the poisonous, self-serving , oligarchic gravy-train that is currently running it into the buffers. Cheers Richard Maher PS. Here's a web site where you can often hear from Jim Johnson if you miss him, and can also reminisce about what it was like to be in a living development environment: - http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=388&SiteID=1 Digital had it way back when :-( PPS> There used to be an RPG II compiler on PDPs don't know if it ever made it to VMS. "Paul Raulerson" wrote in message news:000301c7e532$25d7be90$71873bb0$@com... > > [SNIP SNIP SNIP] > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Maher [mailto:maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:11 PM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? > > > [SNIP] > > Hey Richard, do you have a pointer to how to turn this DDTM *on*? > I have found: > DDTM$XA_SHUTDOWN.COM;1 DDTM$XA_STARTUP.COM;1 > DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.COM;1 DECDTM$SHUTDOWN.COM;1 > DECDTM$STARTUP.COM;1 > > and ran the DECDTM$STARTUP.com script, which seems to have succeeded. Also > ran the DDTM$XG_START_SERVER.com > script, and they *seem* to be running. > > Marked a test file with SET FILE/RU_JOURNAL and it seems to report itself > correctly. > > Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > > Ran the example script, created the files and still get the same error code. > I do not know if it is a license thing or not. Show license finds the > following lines, so I think it is licensed. > > DTM DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > RMSJNL DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > > I cannot find any startup files or stuff with *RMS* in the name to run or > whatever. > > I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal manual was > clear that DECdtm has to be > running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? Thanks -Paul > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:01:18 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/22/07 23:37, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel [mailto:heinvandenheuvel@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:50 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? [snip] >> Hmm, those remarks suggest very limited understanding of how OpenVMS >> works. >> Languages do NOT roll their own stuff. They are all just dialects to >> do the same thing using core functions from the kernel or run time >> libraries. >> If Pascal had 'free' transaction management, then Cobol and Fortran >> and Basic would also have it. Period. That's how it's done for >> OpenVMS. >> > > Not so. You've got two (three?) months of VMS experience, and you're telling *us* how VMS languages are? Slightly arrogant and foolish. > COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file handling > capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of the > normal COBOL thing Normal in the VS/COBOL world, maybe... > is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though it is > not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. "CALL DTM$START_TRANSACTION()." isn't that complicated of a change to your code. > I believe it is for the new > spec coming out... Then if VMS COBOL 3.0 decides to follow the latest standard, it'll have BEGIN TRANSACTION. > Of course, high end transaction systems handle this very well, usually by > serializing > access to file resources, and by providing true transaction. They cost > though- > CICS for example runs anywhere from just under a thousand dollars per month > *up*. ACMS serves the same purpose in VMS. [snip] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:25:08 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson wrote: > Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file > handling > capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of the > normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though > it is > not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for the > new > spec coming out... Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:13:49 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W783756706_11823_1187878429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Itanium, it's included in the EOE (Enterprise) and MCOE (Mission >Critical) operating enviornments. With the real entry level FOE >(Foundation) operating environment it can be added on it's own as an >extra, on I64 I do not believe the RMSJNL license would be a big cost.> > >Alex THANK YOU - that just made my day! Now all I have to do is get it to work. :) -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W783756706_11823_1187878429-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:25:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: On 08/23/07 08:25, Tom Linden wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 21:37:53 -0700, Paul Raulerson > wrote: > >> Not so. COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file >> handling >> capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of the >> normal COBOL thing is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though >> it is >> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. I believe it is for >> the new >> spec coming out... > > Indexed file handling is in the PL/I semantics. Yeah, but anyone in his right mind knows that PL/1 sucks. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:53:29 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <1187880809.908651.315090@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 11:03 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > [SNIP SNIP SNIP]> > > Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. That's not a failure code in OpenVMS, but it is a bad informational. It should possibly translate to '%SYSTEM-I-NEWBIE, Beginner in action" 'get back' FROM WHAT? In which field? The Cobol should look like: START-TRANS. CALL "SYS$START_TRANSW" USING omitted, omitted, BY REFERENCE IOSB, omitted, omitted, omitted, omitted, omitted, omitted GIVING STS. : The other place to check for status is after the open of a file marked for RU. Typically that would involve something like DECLARATIVES. ERROR-HANDLER SECTION. USE AFTER STANDARD EXCEPTION PROCEDURE ON THE-FILE. HERE-WE-GO. MOVE RMS-STS TO STS. MOVE RMS-STV TO STV. DISPLAY "File status ", FILE-STATUS, " STS=", STS, " STV=", STV. END DECLARATIVES. hth, Hein. > > Ran the example script, created the files and still get the same error code. > I do not know if it is a license thing or not. Show license finds the > following lines, so I think it is licensed. > > DTM DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > RMSJNL DEC 0 0 100 0.0 (none) > 31-JUL-2008 > > I cannot find any startup files or stuff with *RMS* in the name to run or > whatever. > > I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal manual was > clear that DECdtm has to be > running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? Thanks -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:00:02 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W807075510_12400_1187881202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/22/07 23:37, Paul Raulerson wrote: > >> Not so. > >You've got two (three?) months of VMS experience, and you're telling >*us* how VMS languages are?> > >Slightly arrogant and foolish. Not at all - I did not specify the HP COBOL compiler, and I do have aroun= d 27 years of experience with COBOL now, in a very wide variety of environm= ents. Ranging from Honeywell DPS-7 machines through Sperry Rand and Burro= ughs machines, through mainframes to UNIX, and even (ugh!) PC's. COBOL I know. VMS I am learning. I try at least, to be particularly caref= ul around here not insult anyone with ignorance, but I also am not very a= fraid to speak up about subjects I do know about. :) > COBOL is not COBOL unless it supplies certain indexed file handling > capabilities, something that is NOT true of other languages. Part of th= e > normal COBOL thing > >Normal in the VS/COBOL world, maybe... No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= different COBOL vendor. >> is to supply the BEGIN TRANSACTION keywords, though it is >> not required in the language spec for COBOL 85. > >"CALL DTM$START_TRANSACTION()." isn't that complicated of a change >to your code. Not once you know it there, and how all the pieces to make it work fit to= gether, no, it isn't. [snip] Yours, -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W807075510_12400_1187881202-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 10:27:28 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article <1187840978.421774.183940@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Hein RMS van den Heuvel writes: > On Aug 22, 1:53 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: >> I posted this question in another, but I figured someone here might >> have a good idea they were willing to share. >> >> Most COBOL implementations provide a >> BEGIN TRANSACTION >> COMMIT/ROLLBACK >> construct. >> Or if John R. is reading this - any plans to add transaction management directly into the compiler? Or is there transaction management built into Pascal or Fortran that I can use to manage this? > > Hmm, those remarks suggest very limited understanding of how OpenVMS > works. > Languages do NOT roll their own stuff. They are all just dialects to > do the same thing using core functions from the kernel or run time > libraries. > If Pascal had 'free' transaction management, then Cobol and Fortran > and Basic would also have it. Period. That's how it's done for > OpenVMS. If that Cobol syntax is standardized (a question not answered to date in this discussion), VMS Cobol should support it by calling RMS Journaling from the generated code. This is analogous to HP Ada automatically calling DECthreads to support Ada tasking. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:19:11 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W858637191_28598_1187885951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I did scan through the manuals I could find, and the RMS Journal manual was >> clear that DECdtm has to be >> running first, but ... not really working. Advice? Pointers? Thanks -Paul > >You might not have a log file, "$mc lmcp help create_log *" > >Alex That was precisely the problem, thank you Alex! Just took me a while to figure out how to change SYS$JOURNAL to point to where I wanted it to, then it works just perfecto. Thanks again -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W858637191_28598_1187885951-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:45:51 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W8706924938_5132_1187887551 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > >That's not a failure code in OpenVMS, but it is a bad informational. >It should possibly translate to '%SYSTEM-I-NEWBIE, Beginner in action" > >'get back' FROM WHAT? In which field? >R>
'get back' FROM WHAT? In which field?
LOL! Well, perhaps. The error code was coming back in the status field, which I basically swiped from the sample code. I just translated it to it's hex value for ease of communications. The actual call looks more like this (again, swiped from the sample, with EFN = 7). CALL "SYS$START_TRANSW" USING BY VALUE EFN BY VALUE 0 BY REFERENCE IOSB BY VALUE 0 BY VALUE 0 BY REFERENCE TID GIVING RETURN-STATUS IF RETURN-STATUS IS FAILURE ... --> display what came back in the S9(9) COMP field. ----=_vm_0011_W8706924938_5132_1187887551-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:05:55 +0000 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: ----=_vm_0011_W8853028869_25999_1187888755 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >If that Cobol syntax is standardized (a question not answered to date >in this discussion), VMS Cobol should support it by calling RMS Journali= ng >from the generated code. I could easily be mis-remembering, or have seen it in a J4 paper or somet= hing, ro even just in a discussion. In any case, the library calls work great. I would personally rather see = INITIALIZE and some of the other cool 2002 standards come into the langua= ge implementation. After all, COMMIT/ROLLBACK is *not* missing from the l= anguage, it is just available in a different way! Or even non-standard extensions like generic default handlers and such. ;= ) Yours, -Paul ----=_vm_0011_W8853028869_25999_1187888755-- ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 12:19:26 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > No, it is an inherent part of the language defnition. The definition does= > NOT speak as to how the underlying system is implemented, so you have it= > implemented with "RMS" under VMS, VISION or a descendant under AcuCOBOL,= > VSAM under z/OS, z/VM, z/VSE. and z/TPM, and so forth and so on for each= > different COBOL vendor. Must be a PITA to implement on an OS without a file system, like UNIX or DOS. But if Solaris and HP-UX can have "VAX compatable Fortran" with indexed file operations, I guess it can be done. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:45:20 -0000 From: Hein RMS van den Heuvel Subject: Re: COBOL Transactions? Message-ID: <1187891120.707449.105890@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 12:45 pm, "Paul Raulerson" wrote: > >> Constantly get back a failure code, 933B. > >> ... --> display what came back in the S9(9) COMP field. Wait... When you wrote 933B we (me!) assumed HEX due to the "B" If that really was DECIMAL 9332 then it makes much more sense: $ exit 9332 %SYSTEM-F-NOLOG, transaction log not found Hein. ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 2007 23:36:11 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: <1187782390.059949.82490@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have been trying to find something that will help me to set up just enough > DECnet to allow me to download the software to a DECserver, and connect > together a small number of VAXstations I have at home (I am already > networking with TCP/IP, but DECnet would be fun to play with too). There is > a huge amount of documentation which would take me some time to work through > and understand. > > Is there a resource somewhere that would allow me to get started a bit more > quickly for the sake of domestic harmony? I am thinking along the lines of > Phil Wherry's page for installing VMS. > > I tried setting it up and got as far as choosing a local namespace (seems > simple), but the next question about the location of the file stumped me > somewhat. > > Thanks > > Rob If you just want MOP loading control, SET HOST and file copy etc, then you need local namespace. The name for this namespace will be LOCAL:.nodename If you ask for a domain name service then it will also ask for the fully qualified node name for an IP-centric view of the world. I suggest you don't want to use DECdns as I've yet to find anyone who DOES use it! If this covers the "next question" then that's great. If not, what is the next quesiton please? Steve ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 07:35:38 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: DECnet-Plus for a hobbyist Message-ID: In article <46CCE489.38A33AB4@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: > > Post the output of SHOW DEVICE E and maybe we can figure out where NETCONFIG > made an invalid assumption. (ESA0: doesn't sound right for a VLC - I'd have > expected EWA0: and EWA-0, but it's been a while). I don't think he's seeing a NETCONFIG.COM bug, I think the poster was right about this being an issue with having some other protocol started prior to DECnet Phase IV trying to change the physical address. None of which is doing him any good since he needs MOP, not DECnet. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 07:37:10 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Help with tracking down intrusion record logs Message-ID: In article <1187827977.220927.37690@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > > You're back! I was worried after your no-content reply to Bob! :-) The content was in the title. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:06:19 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:09:40 -0700, wrote: > Being prepared to suffer and die for your faith doesn't imply any > validity to > that faith just that you believe in it very strongly. It suggests a psychosis. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:32:42 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187875962.879607.232430@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 10:55 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > On Aug 22, 9:06 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: > > Any idiot can set up a website which can be used by others as proof. > It is hardly what any rational person would accept as peer-reviewed > literature. > > Why not try reading the book "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who > Changed The Bible and Why" (which was peer-reviewed by the way) then > get back to me. The proof laid out in this book shows that a majority > of very early Biblical manuscripts are different. If you're going to > believe in something you had better be aware of the warts and all. > > p.s. as an aside, reading the book has not changed "MY" belief in > Christianity. In fact, it has cleared what I saw as a few > inconsistancies. YMMV > > NSR are you dense? The sites show they found pieces of New testament that date anywhere from just after John to the first century ... and those writings translate to what the bible is now ... so you wish to continue to deny God and His words, that is not my problem, it's yours ... the proof is there as always with everything in the bible, whether you wish to accept it is another thing ... I wouldn't call Israeli archaeologists idiots ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:09:37 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: On 08/23/07 08:06, Tom Linden wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 10:09:40 -0700, wrote: > >> Being prepared to suffer and die for your faith doesn't imply any >> validity to >> that faith just that you believe in it very strongly. > > It suggests a psychosis. It suggests stupidity. Kill the other guy for his cause before he kills you for your. (Paraphrased from George Patton.) -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:19:37 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: wrote in message news:1187829941.906578.232570@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 21, 11:38 pm, Neil Rieck wrote: >> >> Example-3, everyone today loves the King James Version but it appears >> that this book is based upon a 12th century manuscript that just might >> have been the worst choice for a bible (but there were not many others >> available in Western Europe at the time) >> >> Food for thought: If the bible is the inspired word of God then why >> did he allow all these people to mess around with it? Or, from what I >> can see (I just finished reading the book) he seems to have gone out >> of his way to make sure we can never get a glimpse of the original >> text. > > > well these links seem to shot holes in your misguided theory ... > > > http://odyssey.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html > > http://theologos.net/NTpapyrus.html > > http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/articledetail.asp?Article_ID=72 > > Arrgh. First of all, the "Bible" consists of more than just the New Testament. Second of all, the only site you quote that has any form of objectivity is the first one at Duke - and it dates the earliest papyrus examples of New Testament writing at between 150 and 200 years ACE. In fact it agrees that the earlier English translations of those writings were flawed and were not improved until the late 19th century and again in the mid-20th. Nor does it deal with nuance of meaning when translating the words in their context of (say) 1st or 2nd century Greek into 21st century English. Have you ever read the original Sheakspear? Chaucer? Interestingly, all of these "sources" appear to start with the premise that the New Testament was originally written in Greek - and if that is the case then I am left to wonder why if Jesus and his disciples spoke Arameric - why they can draw any conclusion that the GREEK writing was written either first person, or by someone who was a contemporary of the writer. It is far more likely to be the codification of oral history several generations removed from the time of Christ. OTOH - some things may well BE transcriptions of actual letters written in Greek. Which neither proves or disproves the "truth" of their content. Nor does any of this address why the books in the New Testament qualify for inclusion in the Bible - and other books from the same periods were banned from the Bible. So ignoring transliteration problems with Arameric, Greek, German and English - the entire editing process of what *is* and what *is not* the inspired or literal word of God is suspect as humans made political and theological decisions as to what should be orthodoxy in the Church... and different splinter groups of Christianity have over time removed and added things as they saw fit - for example the book of Mormon. Lastly, it doesn't matter. You believe what you want to. Be it the Bible or the Qu'ran. No amount of evidence to support or disprove it matters - it is a matter of faith. If your faith leads to you believe things that to most people make you a fool - like the age of the earth being 5000 years - then so be it. So. Bob: Give it up. Proof of your beliefs can't be found in the writings of men. The existance of God has yet to be proven - otherwise you would not need faith to believe. Please try to refrain from using this forum to convert the heathen - there are many better ways to do that - and to follow the commands of Christ. Neil: Come on man - no need to poke Bob with a stick just for fun. If things are slow, I can point out a lot of really wacky sites that you can waste huge amounts of time in. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 12:21:44 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: In article <1187875962.879607.232430@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: > > are you dense? The sites show they found pieces > of New testament that date anywhere from just after > John to the first century ... and those writings translate > to what the bible is now ... so you wish to continue to > deny God and His words, that is not my problem, it's > yours ... the proof is there as always with everything > in the bible, whether you wish to accept it is another > thing ... > > I wouldn't call Israeli archaeologists idiots ... So if I find an original manuscript of Tom Sawer, that makes it true? More to the point, how about an old manuscript discussing Zeus, Odin, or Jupiter? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:32:52 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187890372.528771.288850@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 12:19 pm, "FredK" wrote: > wrote in message > > Neil: Come on man - no need to poke Bob with a stick just for fun. If > things are slow, I can point out a lot of really wacky sites that you can > waste huge amounts of time in. Couldn't resist posting this one: That'll probably wrap, but if you need a good laugh and want to take a few minutes to do so, go to www.stupidvideos.com and click the "Funny Videos" link on the left. Scroll down and find the "George W. Bush imitation" video. It's relevant to more than one of the recent Bob- related off-topics being discussed here. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:40:08 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Here's one for Bob (hope it makes your head spin) Message-ID: <1187890808.192479.279230@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 12:32 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 23, 12:19 pm, "FredK" wrote: > > > wrote in message > > > Neil: Come on man - no need to poke Bob with a stick just for fun. If > > things are slow, I can point out a lot of really wacky sites that you can > > waste huge amounts of time in. > > Couldn't resist posting this one: > > %20imitation/Funny%20videos/> > > That'll probably wrap, but if you need a good laugh and want to take a > few minutes to do so, go towww.stupidvideos.comand click the "Funny > Videos" link on the left. Scroll down and find the "George W. Bush > imitation" video. It's relevant to more than one of the recent Bob- > related off-topics being discussed here. Sorry, it's and I wouldn't have wasted this bandwidth except it's one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:44:45 +0200 From: "Walter Kuhn" Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: <46cd3af1$0$19894$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at> Using no event flag (= event flag 0) for QIO + QIOW is suspect. Try with event flag EFN$C_ENF. regards Walter schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:1187830870.915352.211590@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > 23 years ago, fresh out of university, my first job was maintaining > FORTRAN on a VAX. > Last month I started a new job, and I am . . . maintaining FORTRAN on > a VAX. (sigh) > The operating-system part is nice, the language is not. Check this > out: > > SUBROUTINE FOREVER > > IMPLICIT NONE > > INTEGER*4 I > INTEGER*4 STATUS > INTEGER*2 IOSB(4) > INTEGER*2 READCHAN > INTEGER*2 WRITECHAN > LOGICAL*1 MORE > BYTE READBUFFER(64) > BYTE WRITEBUFFER(32) > > STATUS = SYS$CREMBX(,READCHAN,%VAL(64),%VAL(128),,,'MYMBX') > IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) > STATUS = SYS$ASSIGN('YOURMBX',WRITECHAN) > IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) > > WHILE (.TRUE.) > STATUS = SYS$QIOW(,%VAL(READCHAN),%VAL(IO$_READVBLK),IOSB,,, > %REF(READBUFFER),%VAL(64),,,,) > IF (STATUS) THEN > IF (IOSB(1)) THEN > MORE = .TRUE. > WHILE (MORE) > FOR I=1,READBUFFER(4) > IF (something) THEN MORE = .FALSE. > END > END > STATUS = SYS$QIO(,%VAL(WRITECHAN),%VAL(IO$_WRITEVBLK .OR. > IO$M_NOW),IOSB,,, > %REF(WRITEBUFFER),%VAL(32),,,,) > IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) > ENDIF > ENDIF > END > > > This particular bit of code went into an infinite loop today. > I admit I've abstracted a lot of specifics but the gist remains, > so please don't wonder about the nested WHILE and FOR > that seem to be pointless, they're actually fine. The crucial > point is that the inner test is assumed to be guaranteed --- > i.e., eventually the "something" will be true, causing the WHILE > to exit. Well, today it didn't, and my main suspicion is a > possible race condition resulting from two perfectly valid I/Os. > Does anyone else see it? > > ok > dpm > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:31:25 -0700 From: "dpm_google@myths.com" Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: <1187865085.451011.116170@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 12:09 am, Hein RMS van den Heuvel wrote: > In addition... in the code as posted, if status from the first qio is > ever false (bad channel, quota) then it will also loop as true remains > true. Actually that loop is supposed to be infinite --- the process is a daemon, running until halted via $ STOP /EXIT (thus the name of the subroutine, "FOREVER"). But yes, the code certainly needs to be beefed up with regards to error reporting. As with most code that's been around for over a decade, some parts are good and others are horrible. Here's one of the latter: IF (.NOT. IOSB(1)) THEN TYPE *, 'READ TIMED OUT!' GOTO 100 ENDIF Sigh. ok dpm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 03:33:50 -0700 From: "dpm_google@myths.com" Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: <1187865230.435622.38150@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 3:44 am, "Walter Kuhn" wrote: > Using no event flag (= event flag 0) for QIO + QIOW is suspect. Absolutely. In fact, I use stronger words ;-) > Try with event flag EFN$C_ENF. Or, on older systems, LIB$GET_EF() and LIB$FREE_EF(). ok dpm ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 07:45:22 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: In article <1187830870.915352.211590@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, "dpm_google@myths.com" writes: > 23 years ago, fresh out of university, my first job was maintaining > FORTRAN on a VAX. > Last month I started a new job, and I am . . . maintaining FORTRAN on > a VAX. (sigh) > The operating-system part is nice, the language is not. Check this > out: > I see nothing inherintly wrong with the two I/Os as written, but the logic seems faulty. If the IO$_READVBLK fails to submit or fails to complete (STATUS is bad or IOSB(1) is bad) then the outer loop will never terminate. Both of these should be terminal conditions. I'd add an ELSE to both of those tests and call LIB$SIGNAL just as the program does if the IO$_WRITEVBLK fails. ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 08:01:11 -0500 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: is this a race condition? Message-ID: In article <1187834140.971153.295890@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter writes: > On Aug 22, 9:01 pm, "dpm_goo...@myths.com" > wrote: >> 23 years ago, fresh out of university, my first job was maintaining >> FORTRAN on a VAX. >> Last month I started a new job, and I am . . . maintaining FORTRAN on >> a VAX. (sigh) >> The operating-system part is nice, the language is not. Check this >> out: >> >> SUBROUTINE FOREVER >> >> IMPLICIT NONE >> >> INTEGER*4 I >> INTEGER*4 STATUS >> INTEGER*2 IOSB(4) >> INTEGER*2 READCHAN >> INTEGER*2 WRITECHAN >> LOGICAL*1 MORE >> BYTE READBUFFER(64) >> BYTE WRITEBUFFER(32) >> >> STATUS = SYS$CREMBX(,READCHAN,%VAL(64),%VAL(128),,,'MYMBX') >> IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) >> STATUS = SYS$ASSIGN('YOURMBX',WRITECHAN) >> IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) >> >> WHILE (.TRUE.) >> STATUS = SYS$QIOW(,%VAL(READCHAN),%VAL(IO$_READVBLK),IOSB,,, >> %REF(READBUFFER),%VAL(64),,,,) >> IF (STATUS) THEN >> IF (IOSB(1)) THEN >> MORE = .TRUE. >> WHILE (MORE) >> FOR I=1,READBUFFER(4) >> IF (something) THEN MORE = .FALSE. >> END >> END >> STATUS = SYS$QIO(,%VAL(WRITECHAN),%VAL(IO$_WRITEVBLK .OR. >> IO$M_NOW),IOSB,,, >> %REF(WRITEBUFFER),%VAL(32),,,,) >> IF (.NOT. STATUS) THEN LIB$SIGNAL(%VAL(STATUS), %VAL(0)) >> ENDIF >> ENDIF >> END >> >> This particular bit of code went into an infinite loop today. >> I admit I've abstracted a lot of specifics but the gist remains, >> so please don't wonder about the nested WHILE and FOR >> that seem to be pointless, they're actually fine. The crucial >> point is that the inner test is assumed to be guaranteed --- >> i.e., eventually the "something" will be true, causing the WHILE >> to exit. Well, today it didn't, and my main suspicion is a >> possible race condition resulting from two perfectly valid I/Os. >> Does anyone else see it? >> >> ok >> dpm > > dpm, > > I would not consider the language an issue. The features that attract > my eye on first glance would be essentially the same in any language > (down to and including MACRO-32). > > In addition to the QIO/QIOW problem cited earlier in this thread, I > would be concerned about the use of a default event flag. In It was my impression that $QIOW is not internally implemented as a $QIO followed by a $WAITFR. It's implemented as $QIO followed by $SYNCH. So the use of the default event flag is safe (albeit not necessarily desireable). Wait a bit... Not only are we re-using the event flag. We're re-using the IOSB. If that second $QIO completes asynchronously for any reason (not high probability given IO$M_NOW) then the $SYNCH on the next read will complete spuriously. How does IO$M_NOW interact with a mailbox full condition? ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 16:36:09 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Nasty? was: SSH login welcome message? Message-ID: <5j5rbpF3sv1a5U1@mid.individual.net> In article , Malcolm Dunnett writes: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >> If you want to know about nasty, being that you are a relative newcomer >> to comp.os.vms, I suggest you research one Carl J. Lydick. While c.o.v. >> sometimes gets hostile and vituperations fill the threads, it is nothing >> at all like the when Carl would chime in with his castigatory vitrolic >> rhetoric! > > Carl was also a great resource and could be very helpful if you > asked what he deemed a worthy question. All things considered I > miss Carls postings. > > Lets not forget Ehud Gavron either, there was a time when c.o.v. > flamage was rated in units called the Gavron. Now there is a name I haven't seen in a dog's age although I still often wonder what became of him. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:26:39 +0930 From: Mark Daniel Subject: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Message-ID: <13cqq06mreo9o7f@corp.supernews.com> Hello again Bob. This is in response to your email earlier today. I decided to reply to it using this forum for a number of reasons. 1) In our most recent dialog (in this forum) you made some (IMO) ill-considered, incorrect and intemperate remarks about my attempts to explain the underlying issue regarding problems you were experiencing (with soyMAIL) and why they were endemic to Purveyor. 2) Earlier attempts to assist with configuration of said software were fraught with outbursts stemming from your frustration (again IMO) at not being able to tailor the configuration for Purveyor (despite my having already done it on the test-bench). 3) An investigation and report for you at the beginning of this year into generating version 1 X.509 certificates to allow Purveyor SSL to continue past current Instantwhip certificate expiry date didn't receive so much as an 'I'll get back to you'. Nothing. Zip. Zero. 4) An assessment I undertook into migrating the Purveyor baseline code from SSLeay to OpenSSL, some three years ago and on Instantwhip's behalf, did not progress (perhaps understandably considering the Purveyor source-code license cost) but after spending a significant amount of my own time did not receive even the common courtesy of a 'thank you', just an 'Instantwhip management aren't willing to risk the money' (again understandably). 5) Still earlier endeavours to assist with configuration of yahMAIL left me with the impression you really had no idea how to follow instructions that many before you completed with relative ease. 6) Continuing misunderstanding/misrepresentation in this forum of the origins and management of Web environments other than (perhaps) Purveyor indicate an inability to 'think outside the square'. This doesn't bode well for collaborative problem solving in an unfamiliar environment. 7) Most of our interactions (public and private) have required time and effort disproportionate to anyone else who has used or uses WASD and/or its companion software. 8) I do not wish to be constantly told how cumbersome/inefficient/convoluted/unconfigurable WASD is in comparision to Purveyor or how this or that could have be done with a couple of mouse-clicks (PPO). 9) ... Hence, while willing to assist with the installation and configuration of WASD, in consideration of my own sanity, available time, generally sanguine disposition, and last but by no means least systolic and diastolic measurements, I prefer not to do it via private dialog. You are too high maintenance for a pastime activity. In consideration of all this I have some suggestions. 1) Ask your questions in c.o.v. There is a large number of WASD sites and users out there. I'm sure some participate here also. I often read this forum and will respond to appropriate enquiries. In addition using c.o.v. provides you with 24 hour responsiveness, something I cannot. 2) Subscribe to WASD's mailing list. Instructions are available at the site. This list shares similar advantages with c.o.v. It also represents a more concentrated and diverse pool of WASD experience. I respond to appropriate enquires in this forum (haven't yet seen one that hasn't been appropriate ) - and usually fairly promptly. 3) HP's ITRC OpenVMS fora may also provide an active community (and possibly more technical, less off-topic discussion than c.o.v.) Though I don't participate in ITRC discussion for reasons aired here previously. 4) Engage a company or consultant with experience with WASD. I know of a small number in the USA. I am sure there are others. You could poll for interest on c.o.v. Using such a commercial service would also provide you with the reassurance and security you have so volubly described as missing from open-source software and community support. I would not consider providing this sort of service to Instantwhip (read 'yourself'). Someone else might. Be assured; WASD installation and configuration is doable, as hundreds preceding you attest. Mark Daniel. -- Sonja: I truly think this is the best of all possible worlds. Boris: It's certainly the most expensive. [Woody Allen; Love and Death] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:30:54 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Message-ID: Well, I think we've made good progress here today. . . Tomorrow we might canvass the idea of you and Mark getting a room and venting some of this spooky sexual-tension that's going on. Alternatively you could leave "reality" TV to those dumb fucks that choose to watch it. OTY. Regards Richard Maher wrote in message news:1187871933.894664.68670@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com... > On Aug 23, 6:56 am, Mark Daniel wrote: > > I ask you a simple polite question and I get a smartass > response ... but after seing your outburst earlier about > supporting purveyor, I now understand the character of > yourself ... > > I could list every email I previously sent to you, as I still > have them, including the most recent, but I will not waste > my time ... > > quite simply, I tried to install WASD with SSL and was > told by your .com that it could not find the SSL package > even though it was right in the [.000000] dir where it > belongs ... > > further research into your dcl routines showed that > they expected HT_ROOT to be defined, but upon > manually defining it your dcl routine then complained > that it looked like an UPDATE, not an INSTALL ... > > so it looks like the chicken and the egg ... > > NOWHERE in your docs does it say to define HT_ROOT ... > > I can only assume you must have the server running > which I do not want to do and install the SSL package > in UPDATE mode which is not what your stupid dcl routine > says it can do ... > > My associate here actually tried this first and ran into > this problem and I had to intervene and examine your > dcl routines to find out this is the case ... > > I am sorry we did not thank you, but should we have > to thank someone who we were going to employ to > convert purveyor if possible? We asked if you would > do the project for a FEE if it was possible and asked > if you would look into it ... Process allowed you access > to the code, and you agreed to do it if feasable ... > > It turned out it was not a easy as you first thought and > we politely declined to further pursue the port ... > > YOU ARE THE ONE WHO AGREED TO PORT > PURVEYOR IF POSSIBLE FOR A PAID FEE BUT > WANTED TO SEE IF THERE FIRST WERE ANY > SHOW STOPPERS AS YOU CALL THEM, AND > THERE WERE A FEW AND NO GUARANTEES > FROM YOU THAT IT WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL ... > > You had a chance to look at a competing packages > code base, which I would have thought you would > have valued, as most other developers would have, > but I can see now that you are the ingrate. > > I am sorry you do not like my foundness of > Purveyor over WASD, Apache or even OSU, > but the truth is, Purveyor's ease of setup and > maintenance puts your unix models to shame. > > Let this be a lesson to all those who bank > their hopes on freeware ... I said it once and > I will say it again ... > > YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! > > I came into this as was posted here before stating > the above, but I decided to give freeware a chance, > and now I have confirmed the above ... > > It is not only UNPROFESSIONAL to discuss your > professional dealings with a potential client, but > even more unprofessional to respond in the spoiled > childlike manner you did ... if you were employed > (I am surprised you even are) you would be fired ... > > do you wear a tin foil hat at night? I have never > here or in past emails insulted you personnally > or your product, but you seem to infer that I have > done so ... and the only thing high maintenance > about this whole experience has been your "C" > code ... I am not a C programmer, and DO NOT > wish to be, and should not have to be ... I talked > to you twice about yahmail which I set up without > docks and had no idea that your kludge (or should > I say fudge) code existed or where it had to be > inserted ... soymail turned out to be a typing error > as was discussed on this site, and now the damned > if you do, damned if you don't SSL build problem in > WASD ... and though you state on your site that > you spent some time updating your docks, there is > much work to be done yet ... > > so Mark, you feel the need to be publicly thanked for > pursuing employment with us, examining the Purveyor > code base which you agreed to do first and actually > suggested to do first to find any potential show stoppers, > and upon finding them us deciding not to pursue that > avenue, THANK YOU MARK DANIEL for giving us the > chance to employ your services ... > > and as far as Soymail (or as many around the office here > call it ... Soilmail) or WASD or any other package goes, > THANKS BUT NO THANKS ... > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:47:18 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Re: Open letter to Bob Ceculski (long and somewhat tedious) Message-ID: <13cr7fp54akna6f@news.supernews.com> IS there anything wrong with wearing a tinfoil hat? ;0) "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:fajus3$9mb$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Well, I think we've made good progress here today. . . > > Tomorrow we might canvass the idea of you and Mark getting a room and > venting some of this spooky sexual-tension that's going on. Alternatively > you could leave "reality" TV to those dumb fucks that choose to watch it. > OTY. > > Regards Richard Maher > > wrote in message > news:1187871933.894664.68670@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com... >> On Aug 23, 6:56 am, Mark Daniel wrote: >> >> I ask you a simple polite question and I get a smartass >> response ... but after seing your outburst earlier about >> supporting purveyor, I now understand the character of >> yourself ... >> >> I could list every email I previously sent to you, as I still >> have them, including the most recent, but I will not waste >> my time ... >> >> quite simply, I tried to install WASD with SSL and was >> told by your .com that it could not find the SSL package >> even though it was right in the [.000000] dir where it >> belongs ... >> >> further research into your dcl routines showed that >> they expected HT_ROOT to be defined, but upon >> manually defining it your dcl routine then complained >> that it looked like an UPDATE, not an INSTALL ... >> >> so it looks like the chicken and the egg ... >> >> NOWHERE in your docs does it say to define HT_ROOT ... >> >> I can only assume you must have the server running >> which I do not want to do and install the SSL package >> in UPDATE mode which is not what your stupid dcl routine >> says it can do ... >> >> My associate here actually tried this first and ran into >> this problem and I had to intervene and examine your >> dcl routines to find out this is the case ... >> >> I am sorry we did not thank you, but should we have >> to thank someone who we were going to employ to >> convert purveyor if possible? We asked if you would >> do the project for a FEE if it was possible and asked >> if you would look into it ... Process allowed you access >> to the code, and you agreed to do it if feasable ... >> >> It turned out it was not a easy as you first thought and >> we politely declined to further pursue the port ... >> >> YOU ARE THE ONE WHO AGREED TO PORT >> PURVEYOR IF POSSIBLE FOR A PAID FEE BUT >> WANTED TO SEE IF THERE FIRST WERE ANY >> SHOW STOPPERS AS YOU CALL THEM, AND >> THERE WERE A FEW AND NO GUARANTEES >> FROM YOU THAT IT WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL ... >> >> You had a chance to look at a competing packages >> code base, which I would have thought you would >> have valued, as most other developers would have, >> but I can see now that you are the ingrate. >> >> I am sorry you do not like my foundness of >> Purveyor over WASD, Apache or even OSU, >> but the truth is, Purveyor's ease of setup and >> maintenance puts your unix models to shame. >> >> Let this be a lesson to all those who bank >> their hopes on freeware ... I said it once and >> I will say it again ... >> >> YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! >> >> I came into this as was posted here before stating >> the above, but I decided to give freeware a chance, >> and now I have confirmed the above ... >> >> It is not only UNPROFESSIONAL to discuss your >> professional dealings with a potential client, but >> even more unprofessional to respond in the spoiled >> childlike manner you did ... if you were employed >> (I am surprised you even are) you would be fired ... >> >> do you wear a tin foil hat at night? I have never >> here or in past emails insulted you personnally >> or your product, but you seem to infer that I have >> done so ... and the only thing high maintenance >> about this whole experience has been your "C" >> code ... I am not a C programmer, and DO NOT >> wish to be, and should not have to be ... I talked >> to you twice about yahmail which I set up without >> docks and had no idea that your kludge (or should >> I say fudge) code existed or where it had to be >> inserted ... soymail turned out to be a typing error >> as was discussed on this site, and now the damned >> if you do, damned if you don't SSL build problem in >> WASD ... and though you state on your site that >> you spent some time updating your docks, there is >> much work to be done yet ... >> >> so Mark, you feel the need to be publicly thanked for >> pursuing employment with us, examining the Purveyor >> code base which you agreed to do first and actually >> suggested to do first to find any potential show stoppers, >> and upon finding them us deciding not to pursue that >> avenue, THANK YOU MARK DANIEL for giving us the >> chance to employ your services ... >> >> and as far as Soymail (or as many around the office here >> call it ... Soilmail) or WASD or any other package goes, >> THANKS BUT NO THANKS ... >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 07:38:39 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: In article , Bob Willard writes: > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a plumber without a crack. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:15:05 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > >In article , Bob Willard writes: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >>> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. >> >> Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss >> Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a >> teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of >> Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a >> Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of >> course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. > > Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a > plumber without a crack. Einstein was a physicist. In fact, there is a story that his friend, a mathematician name Marcel Grossmann, helped Einstein to express his theory of relativity using tensor calculus and, in particular, with the application of Christoffel's curvature tensors and Live-Civita's coordinate free differential calculus. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:28:03 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: In article , VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > >In article , koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >> >>In article , Bob Willard writes: >>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. >>> >>> Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss >>> Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a >>> teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of >>> Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a >>> Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of >>> course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. >> >> Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a >> plumber without a crack. > >Einstein was a physicist. In fact, there is a story that his friend, >a mathematician name Marcel Grossmann, helped Einstein to express his >theory of relativity using tensor calculus and, in particular, with >the application of Christoffel's curvature tensors and Live-Civita's >coordinate free differential calculus. Typo, that's Levi-Civita. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:50:33 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:15:05 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > In article , > koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >> >> >> In article , Bob Willard >> writes: >>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. >>> >>> Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss >>> Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a >>> teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of >>> Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a >>> Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of >>> course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. >> >> Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a >> plumber without a crack. > > Einstein was a physicist. In fact, there is a story that his friend, > a mathematician name Marcel Grossmann, helped Einstein to express his > theory of relativity using tensor calculus and, in particular, with > the application of Christoffel's curvature tensors and Live-Civita's > coordinate free differential calculus. > > Levi-Cevita -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:56:45 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > >On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:15:05 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > >> In article , >> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> >>> >>> In article , Bob Willard >>> writes: >>>> Ron Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. >>>> >>>> Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss >>>> Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a >>>> teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of >>>> Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a >>>> Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of >>>> course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. >>> >>> Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a >>> plumber without a crack. >> >> Einstein was a physicist. In fact, there is a story that his friend, >> a mathematician name Marcel Grossmann, helped Einstein to express his >> theory of relativity using tensor calculus and, in particular, with >> the application of Christoffel's curvature tensors and Live-Civita's >> coordinate free differential calculus. >> >> >Levi-Cevita :D OK. I understand their mathematics; I'm just not good at spelling their names. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.jpg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:56:43 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming Message-ID: <1187881003.511223.278300@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 8:38 am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > In article , Bob Willard writes: > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > >> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a > > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. > > Being a physicist without being a mathmetician is like being a > plumber without a crack. Well, yes, a physicist certainly has to learn a lot of math. But physicists and mathematicians play different games and Einstein enlisted the help of a mathematician to help him with the fancy math need for his GR. Physicists are more into using math and the mathematicians are more into proving things (well, at least the theoretical mathematicians). Physicists use mathematics to try to model the physical universe whereas mathematicians start with some assumptions which may or may not have any direct bearing on the physical universe and try to prove theorems that follow from them. Einstein certainly played the former game. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:48:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: <1187873297.440702.127750@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 9:02 pm, Bob Willard wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. > -- > Cheers, Bob Well, according to the recent Isaacson book (Einstein: His Life and Universe) he was much more of a physicist and actually enlisted the help of a mathematician for General Relativity (and also for his work in Unified Field Theories, IIRC). See the book for more about this. BTW, it's a great book. I highly recommend it. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:00:19 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:06:28 -0700, wrote: > In article , John Santos > writes: >> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>> In article , Ron Johnson >>> writes: >>> >>>> On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: >>>> [snip] >>>> >>>>> As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people >>>>> believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still >>>>> believe >>>>> this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other >>>>> way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned >>>>> the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific >>>>> disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed >>>>> climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's >>>> >>>> The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer >>>> orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific >>>> orthodoxy. >>>> >>> >>> Except of course thirty years ago the scientific orthodoxy was >>> worrying about >>> an imminent ice age. >> >> This statement is not true. In the late 70's a small minority of >> climate >> scientists were speculating about this, but it was never "orthodoxy". >> > The prevailing opinion at that time was that the average interglacial > lasted > about 11000 years and since the start of the current interglacial was > 11500 > years ago we were rapidly approaching the onset of a new ice age. That is not accurate, the period of precession of the equinoxes is 25,600 years, IIRC, advancing one degree about every 70 years (perhelion currently is January 4) > > Later evidence from ice cores showed that interglacials could last much > longer > and it has been argued that the current interglacial may be more > analagous to > a previous one which lasted around 30000 years. > see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4081541.stm > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/iceage_01.shtm > > http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/iceage.html > > and > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174246/ > > So yes I think it is fair to say that the orthodoxy in the 1970s was that > the next ice age was due. > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > >> "Orthodoxy" is of course a loaded word, since it means something >> entirely >> different in science than it does in a religious context. >> >> >> Global warming has only become the scientific orthodoxy >>> relatively recently. As you imply with your "peer review is the >>> *perfect* >>> guardian of scientific orthodoxy" science tends to be conservative and >>> only >>> changes to a new orthodox position when the evidence supporting the new >>> position and undermining the old orthodoxy is fairly massive. >>> >>> David Webb >>> Security team leader >>> CCSS >>> Middlesex University >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Johnson, Jr. >>>> Jefferson LA USA >>>> >>>> Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >>>> Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! >> >> >> -- >> John Santos >> Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. >> 781-861-0670 ext 539 -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:24:47 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: <1187882687.902314.54630@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 22, 8:02 pm, Bob Willard wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. > -- On Aug 22, 11:58 pm, "dave weatherall" wrote: > Bob Willard wrote: > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a > > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. > > Aha! Peer Review in operation :-) > Maybe Ron Johnson was referring to Professor Ho'Ratio "Calculus" Einstein, Albert's third cousin twice removed. He lived and died in relative obscurity in Bezelburg, Wisconsin, a town once ridiculed by its neighbors because of its low per-capita consumption of beer and cheese. The Professor experienced three months of notoriety within the scientific community when he presented a paper claiming to mathematically prove Wisconsin to be the future source of global warming. His downfall came when peer review showed his logic to be recursive and he had actually proven the non-existence of both himself and Bezelburg. The peer revue claim that the sun also did not exist was later shown to be caused by a rounding error and correction of that error caused all memories of the event to vanish. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 15:54:05 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: >On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 17:06:28 -0700, wrote: > >> In article , John Santos >> writes: >>> david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >>>> In article , Ron Johnson >>>> writes: >>>> >>>>> On 08/21/07 22:07, Neil Rieck wrote: >>>>> [snip] >>>>> >>>>>> As an aside, let us all remember that 400 years ago most people >>>>>> believed the Sun moved around the Earth. Some people may still >>>>>> believe >>>>>> this today but the majority of educated people know it is the other >>>>>> way around. It was mathematicians and astronomers who first learned >>>>>> the new truth but it took a while to ripple into other scientific >>>>>> disciplines. So when greater than 95% of the peer reviewed >>>>>> climatologists say that global warming is real AND that mankind's >>>>> >>>>> The problem is that humans (and scientists *are* human) prefer >>>>> orthodoxy, and peer review is the *perfect* guardian of scientific >>>>> orthodoxy. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Except of course thirty years ago the scientific orthodoxy was >>>> worrying about >>>> an imminent ice age. >>> >>> This statement is not true. In the late 70's a small minority of >>> climate >>> scientists were speculating about this, but it was never "orthodoxy". >>> >> The prevailing opinion at that time was that the average interglacial >> lasted >> about 11000 years and since the start of the current interglacial was >> 11500 >> years ago we were rapidly approaching the onset of a new ice age. > >That is not accurate, the period of precession of the equinoxes is 25,600 >years, IIRC, advancing one degree about every 70 years (perhelion >currently is >January 4) > The predominant astronomical cycle affecting glaciation for the last 800,000 years has been a 100,000 year cycle of ice ages punctuated by briefer usually 9000 - 12000 year long interglacials. There are a number of different astronomical cycles which acting together may explain this. I believe the interglacial can generally be thought of as lasting for about one half of the equinox precessional period (the exact length depending upon how all the cycles mesh together and probably also modulated by other non-astronomical factors). The variation caused by the precession of the equinoxes obviously occurs repeatedly during the 100,000 year period but only leads to interglacial conditions at the beginning/end of the 100,000 year cycle. However as indicated in some of the links below more recent findings from ice cores point to some interglacials having lasted much longer than half the equinox precessional period. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >> >> Later evidence from ice cores showed that interglacials could last much >> longer >> and it has been argued that the current interglacial may be more >> analagous to >> a previous one which lasted around 30000 years. >> see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4081541.stm >> >> http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/understanding/iceage_01.shtm >> >> http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/iceage.html >> >> and >> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174246/ >> >> So yes I think it is fair to say that the orthodoxy in the 1970s was that >> the next ice age was due. >> >> David Webb >> Security team leader >> CCSS >> Middlesex University >> >> >>> "Orthodoxy" is of course a loaded word, since it means something >>> entirely >>> different in science than it does in a religious context. >>> >>> >>> Global warming has only become the scientific orthodoxy >>>> relatively recently. As you imply with your "peer review is the >>>> *perfect* >>>> guardian of scientific orthodoxy" science tends to be conservative and >>>> only >>>> changes to a new orthodox position when the evidence supporting the new >>>> position and undermining the old orthodoxy is fairly massive. >>>> >>>> David Webb >>>> Security team leader >>>> CCSS >>>> Middlesex University >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ron Johnson, Jr. >>>>> Jefferson LA USA >>>>> >>>>> Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. >>>>> Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Santos >>> Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. >>> 781-861-0670 ext 539 > > > >-- >PL/I for OpenVMS >www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 08:27:40 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Peer review (was Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax!) a hoax Message-ID: On 08/22/07 20:02, Bob Willard wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > >> Einstein was a Mathmetician, not a Physicist. > > Albert Einstein was both. In 1896, he entered the Swiss > Federal Polytechnic School in Zurich to be trained as a > teacher in physics and mathematics. He was a Professor of > Theoretical Physics at Prague, and he was (later) a That was 1911. He worked in the Patent Office until 1908. /Annalen der Physik/ published him 4 times while still a patent clerk. Unless the University system has changed a lot in the past 100 years, that *undergraduate* Physics degree he received at ETH Zürich doesn't impress me much. Can anyone reading this thread *REALLY* believe with a straight face that in 2007 any of the /Physical Review X/ journals would publish a radical paper by a Patent Clerk (even one with an undergraduate physics degree)? > Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. And, of > course, he was awarded a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1921. Sure. *After* he made a name for himself. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 16:59:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Message-ID: <5j5sniF3sv1a5U5@mid.individual.net> In article , JF Mezei writes: > From a MAC, I ftp to a vms box, and then issue: > > SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png > > The file that gets created on VMS is: > > _Users_JFMEZEI_Desktop_vt500_parser.png;1 > > Would it be correct to state that it is the MAC's fault for not removing > path information from the filename being sent to the remote FTP server ? No, it's your fault for not providing the name you wanted on the other end. :-) FTP used the name you provided and VMS did it's best to intrepret it, the result not being what you wanted. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 17:02:13 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Question about FTP and filenames Message-ID: <5j5sslF3sv1a5U6@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article , > JF Mezei wrote: > >> From a MAC, I ftp to a vms box, and then issue: >> >> SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png >> >> The file that gets created on VMS is: >> >> _Users_JFMEZEI_Desktop_vt500_parser.png;1 >> > > Ooh! So it does. > >> Would it be correct to state that it is the MAC's fault for not removing >> path information from the filename being sent to the remote FTP server ? > > You are giving it the full path by specifying ~/ > > I you do a CD ~/Desktop > > first, followed by the SEND, then no problem. > Or just say: SEND ~/Desktop/VT500_parser.png parser.png bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:45:15 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187873115.275770.193450@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com> On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: [...] > Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing > to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the past. > Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at the > present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its climate > is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years ago > and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter Solstice > and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a scale > than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to > increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, and > that > too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's > So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other perhaps > than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to support their point: "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded that climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so are not reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even attached to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" [...] > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com AEF ------------------------------ Date: 23 Aug 2007 07:48:54 -0500 From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: In article , Dirk Munk writes: > > So yes, there are respectable scientists who do not believe the present > theories on the cause of global warming. However in the present > situation it is hardly possible to have a meaningful discussion on this > subject. The best evidence I've seen shows that much of our current warming is natural and some of it is man made. I still think we ought to take what action we can about the part we're contributing. The ratio of natural to man made seems to be shifting and we don't need to rush things. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:03:40 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:45:15 -0700, AEF wrote: > On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > [...] >> Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing >> to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the past. >> Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at the >> present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its climate >> is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years >> ago >> and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter >> Solstice >> and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a scale >> than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to >> increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, and >> that >> too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's >> So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other >> perhaps >> than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. > > Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to > support their point: > > "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded > that > climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so > are not > reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has > compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are > located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even > attached > to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" > I am not sure what point you are making here. > [...] >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > AEF > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:11:17 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187874677.307864.99880@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 9:03 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:45:15 -0700, AEF wrote: > > On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > > [...] > >> Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing > >> to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the past. > >> Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at the > >> present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its climate > >> is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years > >> ago > >> and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter > >> Solstice > >> and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a scale > >> than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to > >> increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, and > >> that > >> too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's > >> So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other > >> perhaps > >> than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. > > > Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to > > support their point: > > > "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded > > that > > climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so > > are not > > reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has > > compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are > > located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even > > attached > > to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" > > I am not sure what point you are making here. > > > [...] > > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > > AEF > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com You seem to be saying there is no man-made global warming. Right? So does Boob. That makes you and him naysayers, right? Boob quotes a reference saying the above nonsense about the weather service placing thermometers next to hot chimneys and what not, right? So why do the naysayers resort to such nonsense? Or is it just that they're right for other reasons? AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:46:43 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:11:17 -0700, AEF wrote: > On Aug 23, 9:03 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:45:15 -0700, AEF wrote: >> > On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >> > [...] >> >> Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing >> >> to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the >> past. >> >> Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at >> the >> >> present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its >> climate >> >> is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years >> >> ago >> >> and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter >> >> Solstice >> >> and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a >> scale >> >> than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to >> >> increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, >> and >> >> that >> >> too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's >> >> So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other >> >> perhaps >> >> than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. >> >> > Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to >> > support their point: >> >> > "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded >> > that >> > climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so >> > are not >> > reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has >> > compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are >> > located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even >> > attached >> > to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" >> >> I am not sure what point you are making here. >> >> > [...] >> >> >> -- >> >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com >> >> > AEF >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > You seem to be saying there is no man-made global warming. Right? It is nore reliably measureable > > So does Boob. That makes you and him naysayers, right? The difference is that I am a physicist who has worked in the field. > > Boob quotes a reference saying the above nonsense about the weather > service placing thermometers next to hot chimneys and what not, right? > > So why do the naysayers resort to such nonsense? Or is it just that > they're right for other reasons? fallacious logic 101. I know nothing about those references nor do I read what he posts. > > AEF > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:49:28 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: In article <1187873115.275770.193450@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: >[...] >> Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing >> to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the past. >> Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at the >> present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its climate >> is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years ago >> and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter Solstice >> and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a scale >> than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to >> increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, and >> that >> too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's Sorry Solar activity has been ruled out by direct satellite measurement see Lockwood and Frohlich's results published in New Scientist on 11th July 2007 http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn12234-suns-activity-rules-out-link-to-global-warming.html and the paper published in the proceedings of the Royal Society http://www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk/media/proceedings_a/rspa20071880.pdf David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >> So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other perhaps >> than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. > >Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to >support their point: > >"However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded >that >climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so >are not >reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has >compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are >located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even >attached >to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" > >[...] >> >> -- >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > >AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:50:00 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Wisconsin professor says global warming a hoax! Message-ID: <1187880600.823358.80360@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 23, 9:46 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 06:11:17 -0700, AEF wrote: > > On Aug 23, 9:03 am, "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:45:15 -0700, AEF wrote: > >> > On Aug 21, 11:42 pm, "Tom Linden" wrote: > >> > [...] > >> >> Let's be clear, we currently have global warming, but man had nothing > >> >> to do with it, but it will pass as it has countless times in the > >> past. > >> >> Indeed the earth was warmer, the seas were higher in 1250AD than at > >> the > >> >> present. We have the good fortune to live on the Earth when its > >> climate > >> >> is about as good as it can get. We turned the corner about 800 years > >> >> ago > >> >> and are slowly descending into the next Ice Age, when the winter > >> >> Solstice > >> >> and aphelion once again cross. Climatological change occurs on a > >> scale > >> >> than far exceeds human memory. Our current warming is largely due to > >> >> increased solar activity (sunspots) as also occurred in the 1930's, > >> and > >> >> that > >> >> too will pass and the 2020's will likely be cooler as was the 1960's > >> >> So humble yourself, we have but little effect on the earth, other > >> >> perhaps > >> >> than to pollute it to the detriment of our well being. > > >> > Then why do the Global Warming-naysayers resort to things like this to > >> > support their point: > > >> > "However, a United Nations scientist, Jim Renwick, recently conceded > >> > that > >> > climate models do not account for the variability in nature, and so > >> > are not > >> > reliable. And Conklin noted the U.S. National Climate Data Center has > >> > compiled data that shouldn't be used, because its reporting points are > >> > located on hot black asphalt, next to trash burn barrels and even > >> > attached > >> > to hot chimneys, a methodology that is "seriously flawed."" > > >> I am not sure what point you are making here. > > >> > [...] > > >> >> -- > >> >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > >> > AEF > > >> -- > >> PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com > > > You seem to be saying there is no man-made global warming. Right? > > It is nore reliably measureable > > > So does Boob. That makes you and him naysayers, right? > > The difference is that I am a physicist who has worked in the field. > > > > > Boob quotes a reference saying the above nonsense about the weather > > service placing thermometers next to hot chimneys and what not, right? > > > So why do the naysayers resort to such nonsense? Or is it just that > > they're right for other reasons? > > fallacious logic 101. I know nothing about those references nor do I read > what he posts. I don't see people defending well-established facts with nonsense like thermometers next to chimneys or like those Web sites that Boob posted claiming evolution violates the Second Law. So why can't any naysayers come up with something better? I assume you're going with the "they're right for other reasons" I alluded to above, but this would be the first time I've seen nonsense used to defend a "reasonable position" (for lack of my ability to come up with a better phrase). > > > > > AEF > > -- > PL/I for OpenVMSwww.kednos.com AEF ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 05:19:59 -0700 From: sampsal@gmail.com Subject: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Message-ID: <1187871599.745428.93710@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com> I've recently acquired an old Alphaserver 800 that I intend to run VMS on. My only other machines in the house are Apple Macs, none with built in serial ports. I do however own a few null modem cables and am in the process of buying a USB serial adapter, with the view to running the Alphaserver headless in a closet (the other half is not as big a fan of old VMS boxes as I am, unfortunately) and simply using a Macbook Pro, a USB - serial adapter and a null modem cable to do any necessary console work. So my questions more or less come to this: - Which USB serial adapter do you recommend? Not all of them seem Mac compatible - Which serial port on the Alphaserver do I plug the null modem cable into? - Anything special that needs to be done in the SRM to make all this work? Finally, can anyone recommend a terminal program for OS X that does serial and works decently with VMS (esp. EVE). Thanks in advance, Sampsa Laine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 07:46:09 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Message-ID: <07082307460956_20200296@antinode.org> From: sampsal@gmail.com - Which serial port on the Alphaserver do I plug the null modem cable into? The one which works? > - Anything special that needs to be done in the SRM to make all this > work? "set console serial". > Finally, can anyone recommend a terminal program for OS X that does > serial and works decently with VMS (esp. EVE). I just use xterm. I'm not too happy with my keymaps, but things work. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode-org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:04:55 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: [Slightly off-topic] Using a MacBook pro as a console for an Alphaserver 800 Message-ID: In article <1187871599.745428.93710@l22g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, sampsal@gmail.com writes: > > >I've recently acquired an old Alphaserver 800 that I intend to run VMS >on. My only other machines in the house are Apple Macs, none with >built in serial ports. I do however own a few null modem cables and am >in the process of buying a USB serial adapter, with the view to >running the Alphaserver headless in a closet (the other half is not as >big a fan of old VMS boxes as I am, unfortunately) and simply using a >Macbook Pro, a USB - serial adapter and a null modem cable to do any >necessary console work. > >So my questions more or less come to this: >- Which USB serial adapter do you recommend? Not all of them seem Mac >compatible I have a USB serial adapter I use with Mac. It's a Keyspan USB serial adapter. http://www.amazon.com/Keyspan-Speed-Serial-Adapter-USA-19HS/dp/B0000VYJRY >- Which serial port on the Alphaserver do I plug the null modem cable >into? Depends. If you want to use it as the console, then plug it into the console port. If you can't figure out which, connect it at 9600 baud with the Alpha powered up. If you see the >>>, you're found its con- sole. I believe that the port marked 1 and two arrows on the AS 800 is the console port when the console environment variable is not set to graphics. >- Anything special that needs to be done in the SRM to make all this >work? Probably not. >Finally, can anyone recommend a terminal program for OS X that does >serial and works decently with VMS (esp. EVE). I have been using Kermit. I have a command aliased to use the Keyspan serial: serial kermit -y $HOME/.KeySerial The .KeySerial contains: (with debug logging) def YorNdebug def YorNlogit def LogFileName set quiet on set line /dev/tty.KeySerial1 set port /dev/tty.KeySerial1 set modem none set speed 9600 set parity none set stop-bits 1 set carrier-watch off set terminal cr-display normal ask YorNdebug {Debug Mode [Y/N]? } if equal "\m(YorNdebug)" "Y" { set terminal debug on echo Terminal set to Debug Mode echo ask YorNlogit {Log Session to File [Y/N]? } if equal "\m(YorNlogit)" "Y" { ask LogFileName {Log Session to: } log session \m(LogFileName) } } echo echo Connected to /dev/tty.KeySerial1 at 9600 baud echo Press Ctrl-\92 and then C to quit connect exit The .KeySerial contains: (without the debug logging) set quiet on set line /dev/tty.KeySerial1 set port /dev/tty.KeySerial1 set modem none set speed 9600 set parity none set stop-bits 1 set carrier-watch off set terminal cr-display normal echo echo Connected to /dev/tty.KeySerial1 at 9600 baud echo Press Ctrl-\92 and then C to quit connect exit Both scripts above Copyright 2005 by Brian Schenkenberger I used this as a sort of serial monitor for a problem I had to debug at one of the pharmaceuticals about a year ago, hence the "debug" features in the script. In fact, in doing this, I discovered a bug within Kermit which Frank da Cruz quickly corrected for me. I also have a BlueTooth serial connector. I would use it more often if is was capable of being powered off of the serial connector. I built a small circuit in a 9 pin connector which can, if the serial port it is connected to provides, supply power to the BlueTooth serial. If not, I need to use a wall-wart to power the BlueTooth serial... not a wireless solution form my P.O.V. Email me privately if you want to play with the BlueTooth serial and I'll fill you in more and give you a source. The Keyspan USB serial is far less problematic and I'd suggest you go with that as the BlueTooth is much pricier. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.jpg ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.462 ************************