INFO-VAX Sat, 04 Aug 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 423 Contents: Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: Appending in a file Re: broken monitor, well sort of Re: DEBUG-I-DSFMISMATCH on librtl DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE F$FAO question Re: F$FAO question Re: F$FAO question Re: F$FAO question Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Layered products not available on IA64 Re: Layered products not available on IA64 Re: Problem spec refinement Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Re: Stay on Alpha forever? (that is where the compilers are) Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:35:28 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186166128.614928.52270@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 11:50 am, norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote on 08/02/2007 09:54:32 PM: > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:31 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > On 2 ago, 19:15, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 2, 3:58 pm, apogeusiste...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > On 2 ago, 16:55, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > > > > > > > In article <46b24e8...@news.langstoeger.at>, pe... > > @langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) writes: > > > > > > > >In article <9plsi.23$b72...@newsfe12.lga>, VAXman- > > @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > > > > > > >>In article <1186060603.611891.242...@19g2000hsx. > > googlegroups.com>, apogeusiste...@gmail.com writes: > > > > > > >>Seems silly but.... > > > > > > > >>$ PIPE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$time()'" | APPEND SYS$PIPE > FILE.DAT > > > > > > > >>FILE.DAT must be created first. > > > > > > > >No. Use APPEND/NEW > > > > > > > Right! /NEW is create _IF_ it doesn't exist. Sorry, I'm > > suffering a HUGE > > > > > > amount of undue heavy stress here which tends to fog the memory. > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > > > > > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > > > > > >http://tmesis.com/drat.html > > > > > > I use VAX/VMS V5.5-2H4, and it doesn=B4t haves pipe... > > > > > What do you suggest ? > > > > > There's the freeware ADV_PIPE > > > > > available here: > > > > > > > > > or here: > > > > > > > > > If you can't use freeware on your system, but you insist on having a > > > > one-liner, put the DCL commands in a .com file and assign it as a > > > > foreign command.- Ocultar texto entre aspas - > > > > > - Mostrar texto entre aspas - > > > > I have adv_pipe in my system, but how append in a file ? > > > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:39 > > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day > x.x > > > VAX1 =BB ty x.x > > > 2-AUG-2007 21:26:43 > > > VAX1 =BB pipe sh day >> x.x > > > Syntax error > > > VAX1 =BB > > > It's been a while since I last used adv_pipe, and I don't have it > > handy on any system. Use the pipe separator to cause the output of a > > command to be avaialable as the input to the next. VMS's sys$output is > > equiv to *nix's stdout and sys$input is equiv to stdin. You don't want > > to "redirect" the output, you want to "pipe" it. > > > Try the command some others gave you, except substitute sys$input for > > sys$pipe > > > $pipe write sys$output "''f$time()'" | append/new sys$input x.x > > > Otherwise, if that doesn't work, you'll need to read the help. > > : I don't recall if it was in V5.5-2*, but maybe > : SET PROMPT would give the timestamp information needed without any > append. > > Of course I meant SET PREFIX Without knowing what the OP is really trying to do (like you, I guessed he's trying to enter a time-stamp into a log file), it's hard to tell. I can't go back further than v6.2 to see, anyway. For the heck of it I installed ADV_PIPE on a v6.2 VAX. It has some bugs in the install.com file, but nothing insurmountable. ADV_PIPE also doesn't seem to like the Write sys$output "''f$time()'" command, or any write to sys$output, for that matter. ISTR this MAILBOX "feature" back when, but I'm not going to spend time going through the old New features & Release Notes. With debug set: .WORK>pipe write sys$output "''f$time()'" | append/new sys$input x.x $ CREATE/MAILBOX MBA4986: $ SPAWN/INPUT=3DMBA4986:/FLAGS=3D(NOWAIT,NOSYMBOLS,NOLOGICALS) APPEND/NEW SYS$INPUT X.X %SPAWN-I-INFO, PID =3D 0000017A, STATUS =3D 00000001, CNT =3D 1 $ SPAWN/OUTPUT=3DMBA4986:/FLAGS=3D(NOSYMBOLS,NOLOGICALS) WRITE SYS$OUTPUT " 3-AUG-2007 13:09:27.43" %CLI-E-INVREQTYP, invalid request type It does work with: .WORK>pipe show time | append/new sys$input x.x $ CREATE/MAILBOX MBA4993: $ SPAWN/INPUT=3DMBA4993:/FLAGS=3D(NOWAIT,NOSYMBOLS,NOLOGICALS) APPEND/NEW SYS$INPUT X.X %SPAWN-I-INFO, PID =3D 0000017B, STATUS =3D 00000001, CNT =3D 1 $ SPAWN/OUTPUT=3DMBA4993:/FLAGS=3D(NOSYMBOLS,NOLOGICALS) SHOW TIME %SPAWN-I-INFO, PID =3D 0000017C, STATUS =3D 00030001 (do it again) .WORK>type x.x 3-AUG-2007 12:47:53 3-AUG-2007 12:48:31 I can't find any way to use redirect > to append, though. As long as the file exists, or he can live with an error message on the first execution, then he could use copy/concat if he has some allergy to append. ADV_PIPE is so old I don't see it worth spending a lot of time messing with it. ----- Pipes? Pipes? We don't need no stinkin' pipes! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:50:01 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Doug Phillips wrote: > ADV_PIPE is so old I don't see it worth spending a lot of time > messing with it. Not to mention the fact that the copyright notice explicitly denies permission to make changes to any of the files. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:12:46 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Appending in a file Message-ID: <1186168366.950039.19900@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 1:50 pm, Rob Brown wrote: > On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Doug Phillips wrote: > > ADV_PIPE is so old I don't see it worth spending a lot of time > > messing with it. > > Not to mention the fact that the copyright notice explicitly denies > permission to make changes to any of the files. > > -- > Sure, but I doubt the copyrighters would refuse if someone asked permission and agreed to their restrictions. There might even be a newer version of ADV_PIPE someplace for all I know. But I have no need for ADV_PIPE, and I'm not that bored yet;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:54:01 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: broken monitor, well sort of Message-ID: <46B3DC39.65936FD4@spam.comcast.net> Keith Parris wrote: > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > kiwi-red wrote: > >>I have asked my local support guy, Sek, in oz and he is looking at it. > >>I assume we are supported, as we keep paying the bills ;-) > > > > yeah - that's what we thought, also - until we called for phone support and > > couldn't understand the person on the other end. > > Ironically, folks had the same complaints when the Customer Support > Center in Atlanta first opened up -- folks said they couldn't understand > the Southern accent. Some folks even hung up the phone if they were > connected to a person with a Southern accent. But people learned, over > time, to understand and appreciate each other. > [snip] Um, Keith? There's rather a difference between vernacular and culture, and people knowing the product lines, and so on. The language issue is merely a symptom of far deeper issue. HP needs to take a lesson from Dell and start pulling support back on-shore. > I grew up in a college town with students from all over the world, and > grew to understand (and even enjoy) the variety of English accents. Likewise, I find it a welcome challenge at such events as the VMS Bootcamp and "DECUS" Symposia where we talk to/with folks from darn near everywhere. At least we all know the products. Culture issues are not major, and the language issue merely a challenge. > I taught a seminar for the DECUS user group in Budapest in 2004. They > were only 10 years or so out of Communist rule and most adults (who > already knew Hungarian and Russian) had already learned English as well. > They said if I could have spoken English with a German or French accent > they could have understood me better, but my American accent was too > different and hard to understand. They had my respect and my sympathy, > and we did the best we could together. I spent two weeks at a time in England three times between Jan and Jun of 1984 for work. I came home sounding like a cross between and Yank and a Brit. Lasted for couple weeks at home, until I re-adjusted myself to talking to everyone in the local vernacular with a non-British manner. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:03:34 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: DEBUG-I-DSFMISMATCH on librtl Message-ID: Volker Halle wrote: > your LIBRTL.EXE and .STB (dated 20-DEC-2006) are from VMS83I_SYS- > V0200, but HP failed to deliver an updated/matching LIBRTL.DSF file > with that ECO kit. Correct. I've contacted the responsible party for building the ECO kits so that the LIBRTL.DSF file will be included whenever LIBRTL.EXE changes. > You may ignore this DEBUG-I-DSFMISMATCH unless you want to debug code > inside LIBRTL. Correct. If you want to make the DSFMISMATCH message go away, you can: a) Rename SYS$SHARE:LIBRTL.DSF to get it out of the way. E.g., call it LIBRTL.DSF_V83 b) Contact HP customer support and request the LIBRTL.DSF file that should have been shipped (the one that was built on 20-Dec-2006). -Jeff -OpenVMS DEBUG and Kernel Tools ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:07:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <10568$46b37d01$cef8887a$11250@TEKSAVVY.COM> Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it in the list of software to port to iA64 ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:26:53 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <1186169213.510928.168960@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:07 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? Good question, I was about to ask it. We are still using phase 4. So, upgrading that might be another item in my tentative upgrade planning. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:48:12 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <1186170492.536512.11790@l70g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:07 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? This list says Phase 4 is available: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_h.html (I finally get to play the guru with the anwser for once :) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 15:43:02 -0500 From: brooks@cuebid.zko.hp.nospam (Rob Brooks) Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: JF Mezei writes: > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? DECnet Phase IV does exist on OpenVMS I64. No "wintel employee at Compaq" made the decision about what to port to OpenVMS I64; it was made by VMS product management. -- Rob Brooks MSL -- Nashua brooks!cuebid.zko.hp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:48:52 -0700 From: DaveG Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <1186170532.925566.313940@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 2:07 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? Take a gander at this SPD. Looks like DECnet Phase IV is on the list. http://h18000.www1.hp.com/info/XAV12Z/XAV12ZPF.PDF Dave... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 15:52:30 -0400 From: "Ken Robinson" Subject: Re: DECNET on IA64 ? Message-ID: <7dd80f60708031252v5b29fc5fsb9773ea197fdc1fe@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/07, tadamsmar wrote: > On Aug 3, 3:07 pm, JF Mezei wrote: > > Ok, this may sound really silly, but does the real DECNET (phase 4) > > exist on IA64 ? Since it has been in "maintenance mode" for ages, > > perhaps it was easy for some wintel employee at Compaq to not include it > > in the list of software to port to iA64 ? > > Good question, I was about to ask it. > > We are still using phase 4. So, upgrading that might be another item > in my tentative upgrade planning. I seem to remember that DECnet phase 4 was one of the first things to be ported and phase 5 was ported much later in the effort. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:50:46 GMT From: dittman@dittman.net Subject: Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Message-ID: healyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > David Turner, Island Computers wrote: > > Before I tell my customer he has messed up his tape drive He tried backing > > up to a DLTIV tape in a SDLT1 tape drive) I was wondering if I am correct > > in the assumption that you can only READ DLTIV and not write to them. > > I don't really want to try this here as they are still not yet cheap. > > Comments?!? > Correct, and SDLT220 drive can only read a DLT IV tape. For SDLT320 and > newer drives you can't read DLT IV media. According to Quantum you can read DLT IV media in a SDLT320 drive. I've read there are issues with reading DLT IV media in SDLT320 drives with old firmware so upgrading to a newer firmware might be necessary. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 23:39:00 GMT From: healyzh@aracnet.com Subject: Re: DLTIV in SDLT Drive Message-ID: dittman@dittman.net wrote: > According to Quantum you can read DLT IV media in a SDLT320 drive. I've > read there are issues with reading DLT IV media in SDLT320 drives with > old firmware so upgrading to a newer firmware might be necessary. You are supposed to be able to read two versions back with any given drive. The SDLT320's should be able to read DLT IV media written in a DLT8000 drive, but can't. Also I'm told the S4 drives can read SDLT600 tapes, but can't read data written on an SDLT320 drive (our group doesn't have S4 drives yet). Zane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:02:36 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186167756.372871.209120@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > On Aug 3, 1:12 pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > > > > > In article <39652$46b34e5d$cef8887a$22...@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > > > norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > >> Is there any difference between > > > >> $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT > > >> $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* > > > > Not entirely sure but: > > > > DELETE will definitely look at the date for each individual file prior > > > to deleteing it. > > > > PURGE *may* look only at the highest version's date before deciding > > > whether to do a purge on that file name. This means that if you have a > > > recent log file, PURGE might skip it and not delete any of the versions > > > below it that are old enough to match your criteria. > > > Testing shows this not to be the case. All versions are checked against > > the date specification. > > > The behavior is consistent with an implementation strategy of: > > > PURGE /KEEP=n: > > > Check each matching file (with an implicit ;* on the file spec) > > If it's one of the highest n versions, skip it. > > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > > Delete it. > > > DELETE: > > > Check each matching file (require an explicit version specification) > > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > > Delete it > > Well, not quite: > > $ DIR BLAH.TMP > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > BLAH.TMP;9 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:20.13 > BLAH.TMP;8 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:18.54 > BLAH.TMP;7 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:16.95 > BLAH.TMP;6 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:15.35 > BLAH.TMP;5 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:13.68 > BLAH.TMP;4 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:12.01 > BLAH.TMP;3 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:10.33 > BLAH.TMP;2 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:08.54 > BLAH.TMP;1 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > 13:22:06.90 > > Total of 9 files, 0/0 blocks. > $ > $ PURGE/KEEP=3/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;4 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;2 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;1 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-TOTAL, 4 files deleted (0 blocks) > $ > > With /KEEP=1 it would have kept all the files created after the time, > which would be ;9 through ;7. Since we specified two more than one it > deletes two additional files: ;6 and ;5. > > $ DEL/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP;* > %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;6 deleted (0 blocks) > %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;5 deleted (0 blocks) > %DELETE-I-TOTAL, 2 files deleted (0 blocks) > > (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too long ago. Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:15:41 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186168541.939973.325650@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 2:02 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too > long ago. > > threadId=1093051> > > Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. Damned wrap: Here's a tiny url. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:18:16 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186168696.883556.253450@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:02 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > > > On Aug 3, 1:12 pm, bri...@encompasserve.org wrote: > > > > In article <39652$46b34e5d$cef8887a$22...@TEKSAVVY.COM>, JF Mezei writes: > > > > > norm.raph...@metso.com wrote: > > > >> Is there any difference between > > > > >> $ PURGE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT > > > >> $ DELETE/BEFORE="TODAY-8-" FILE.DAT;* > > > > > Not entirely sure but: > > > > > DELETE will definitely look at the date for each individual file prior > > > > to deleteing it. > > > > > PURGE *may* look only at the highest version's date before deciding > > > > whether to do a purge on that file name. This means that if you have a > > > > recent log file, PURGE might skip it and not delete any of the versions > > > > below it that are old enough to match your criteria. > > > > Testing shows this not to be the case. All versions are checked against > > > the date specification. > > > > The behavior is consistent with an implementation strategy of: > > > > PURGE /KEEP=n: > > > > Check each matching file (with an implicit ;* on the file spec) > > > If it's one of the highest n versions, skip it. > > > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > > > Delete it. > > > > DELETE: > > > > Check each matching file (require an explicit version specification) > > > If it doesn't match the date selection criterion, skip it > > > Delete it > > > Well, not quite: > > > $ DIR BLAH.TMP > > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > > BLAH.TMP;9 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:20.13 > > BLAH.TMP;8 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:18.54 > > BLAH.TMP;7 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:16.95 > > BLAH.TMP;6 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:15.35 > > BLAH.TMP;5 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:13.68 > > BLAH.TMP;4 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:12.01 > > BLAH.TMP;3 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:10.33 > > BLAH.TMP;2 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:08.54 > > BLAH.TMP;1 0/0 3-AUG-2007 > > 13:22:06.90 > > > Total of 9 files, 0/0 blocks. > > $ > > $ PURGE/KEEP=3/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP > > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;4 deleted (0 blocks) > > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) > > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;2 deleted (0 blocks) > > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;1 deleted (0 blocks) > > %PURGE-I-TOTAL, 4 files deleted (0 blocks) > > $ > > > With /KEEP=1 it would have kept all the files created after the time, > > which would be ;9 through ;7. Since we specified two more than one it > > deletes two additional files: ;6 and ;5. > > > $ DEL/BEFORE=13:22:16 BLAH.TMP;* > > %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;6 deleted (0 blocks) > > %DELETE-I-FILDEL, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;5 deleted (0 blocks) > > %DELETE-I-TOTAL, 2 files deleted (0 blocks) > > > (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) > > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too > long ago. > > threadId=1093051> > > Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. I'll have to read that thread more carefully later. The fonts are not very readable for the DCL output. I don't think there's a bug. It's always worked as I have described AFAICT. I'll try on Decuserve later. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 12:58:45 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186171125.065577.81840@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 2:18 pm, AEF wrote: > On Aug 3, 3:02 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) > > > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too > > long ago. > > > > threadId=1093051> > > > Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. > > I'll have to read that thread more carefully later. The fonts are not > very readable for the DCL output. > No comprende. You seem to be using: X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv: 1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070725 Firefox/2.0.0.6 and the page is: It looks fine in my Firefox, even when I use IE Tab to switch the view to Internet Exposer. How are is the font displaying for you? > I don't think there's a bug. It's always worked as I have described. It's always (afaik) worked wrong (imo & that of a few notable others.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:46:55 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186174015.313463.242050@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:58 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 3, 2:18 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > On Aug 3, 3:02 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) > > > > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too > > > long ago. > > > > > > threadId=1093051> > > > > Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. > > > I'll have to read that thread more carefully later. The fonts are not > > very readable for the DCL output. > > No comprende. You seem to be using: > > X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv: > 1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070725 Firefox/2.0.0.6 > > and the page is: > > > > It looks fine in my Firefox, even when I use IE Tab to switch the view > to Internet Exposer. How are is the font displaying for you? > > > I don't think there's a bug. It's always worked as I have described. > > It's always (afaik) worked wrong (imo & that of a few notable others.) It "displays" correctly, but it's a hard-to-read font. All the DCL output has almost zero whitespace. I really prefer fixed-width font for DCL output. Proportional makes my head spin. How is it a bug? $ DIR/WID=FILE=15/NOSIZE Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 Total of 9 files. $ What would you expect for A $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 B $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 C $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 D $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 Since the default is /KEEP=1, I'd expect B to be the same as A For C, since 2 is one more than 1, I'd expect PURGE to keep one more file. This is in fact what happens: $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;2 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;1 deleted (0 blocks) %PURGE-I-TOTAL, 3 files deleted (0 blocks) $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;4 deleted (0 blocks) $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;5 deleted (0 blocks) $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged $ How is this a bug? It's also consistent with the VMS philosophy of erring on the side of not deleting data. The proposed alternatives would often delete more files. For someone used to the current algorithm, that would be a surprise! AEF ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:49:53 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186177793.690863.241830@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:46 pm, AEF wrote: > On Aug 3, 3:58 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 3, 2:18 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > On Aug 3, 3:02 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Aug 3, 12:34 pm, AEF wrote: > > > > > > (My PURG and DEL symbols include /LOG, of course.) > > > > > There was a discussion about PURGE's inconsistencies in ITRC not too > > > > long ago. > > > > > > > > threadId=1093051> > > > > > Don't know if they've been addressed yet or not. > > > > I'll have to read that thread more carefully later. The fonts are not > > > very readable for the DCL output. > > > No comprende. You seem to be using: > > > X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv: > > 1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070725 Firefox/2.0.0.6 > > > and the page is: > > > > > > It looks fine in my Firefox, even when I use IE Tab to switch the view > > to Internet Exposer. How are is the font displaying for you? > > > > I don't think there's a bug. It's always worked as I have described. > > > It's always (afaik) worked wrong (imo & that of a few notable others.) > > It "displays" correctly, but it's a hard-to-read font. All the DCL > output has almost zero whitespace. I really prefer fixed-width font > for DCL output. Proportional makes my head spin. > > How is it a bug? > > $ DIR/WID=FILE=15/NOSIZE > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 > > Total of 9 files. > $ > > What would you expect for > > A $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 > B $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 > C $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 > D $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 > For each of those, I would expect that if I did $ DIR/BEFORE=16:37:06 I would see the same files that PURGE would select for consideration; BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 For your example A & B, I would expect to end up with: BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 For C, I would expect to still have those, plus BLAH.TMP;4 For D, I would expect to also still have BLAH.TMP;3 I would expect that files ;8 and ;7 would be ignored because they are "AFTER" the date qualification. That's what the documentation says, and that's what help says, but that's not how it works. > Since the default is /KEEP=1, I'd expect B to be the same as A > > For C, since 2 is one more than 1, I'd expect PURGE to keep one more > file. This is in fact what happens: > > $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;3 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;2 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;1 deleted (0 blocks) > %PURGE-I-TOTAL, 3 files deleted (0 blocks) > It should *not* have deleted BLAH.TMP;3 You told it to keep 3 files dated before 16:37:06 but it only kept 2. > $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;4 deleted (0 blocks) > > $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 > %PURGE-I-FILPURG, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST]BLAH.TMP;5 deleted (0 blocks) > > $ PURGE/LOG BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 > %PURGE-I-NOFILPURG, no files purged > > $ > > How is this a bug? > It didn't keep the number of files you asked it to. How is this *not* a bug? > It's also consistent with the VMS philosophy of erring on the side of It does not work according to it's documentation, nor is it consistent with any other command's /before /since usage. As I quoted in the ITRC thread; Help /keep says: "Specifies the maximum number of versions of the __specified_ _files__ to be retained in the directory." (_emphasis mine) Help /before says: "Selects only those files dated prior to the specified time." The /before does not modify the /keep, it qualifies the files being selected; i.e. it defines the _specified_files_. > not deleting data. The proposed alternatives would often delete more > files. For someone used to the current algorithm, that would be a > surprise! The surprise is that this command is broken and has been for so long. This has been discussed in ITRC and I don't know why your browser is displaying the fonts wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:59:31 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Easy DCL question PURGE vs. DELETE Message-ID: <1186178371.310317.273680@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 4:49 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 3, 3:46 pm, AEF wrote: > [...] > > Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TEST] > > > > BLAH.TMP;9 3-AUG-2007 16:37:08.15 > > BLAH.TMP;8 3-AUG-2007 16:37:07.53 > > BLAH.TMP;7 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.78 > > BLAH.TMP;6 3-AUG-2007 16:37:06.07 > > BLAH.TMP;5 3-AUG-2007 16:37:05.33 > > BLAH.TMP;4 3-AUG-2007 16:37:04.50 > > BLAH.TMP;3 3-AUG-2007 16:37:03.68 > > BLAH.TMP;2 3-AUG-2007 16:37:02.80 > > BLAH.TMP;1 3-AUG-2007 16:37:01.68 [...] > > A $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 > > B $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=1 > > C $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=2 > > D $ PURGE BLAH.TMP /BEFORE=16:37:06 /KEEP=3 [...] > I would expect that files ;8 and ;7 would be ignored because they are > "AFTER" the date qualification. > That should have been files ;9, ;8, ;7 and ;6 would be ignored, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:24:12 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: F$FAO question Message-ID: HAFNER> echo f$fao("!5AS","5") 5 This left-justifies the output. Now looking at the HELP description I see !n<...!> None Left-justifies and blank-fills all data represented by the instructions . . . in fields n characters wide. isn't this superfluous? I ask because what I really wanted was right-justified. Too bad we don't have Rexx on VMS. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 19:45:40 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: F$FAO question Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > >HAFNER> echo f$fao("!5AS","5") >5 > >This left-justifies the output. Now looking at the HELP description I see > > !n<...!> None Left-justifies and blank-fills all data > represented by the instructions . . . in > fields n characters wide. >isn't this superfluous? I ask because what I really wanted was >right-justified. Are you wanting to do this is DCL??? -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:39:57 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: F$FAO question Message-ID: In article , "Tom Linden" writes: > > >HAFNER> echo f$fao("!5AS","5") >5 > >This left-justifies the output. Now looking at the HELP description I see > > !n<...!> None Left-justifies and blank-fills all data > represented by the instructions . . . in > fields n characters wide. >isn't this superfluous? I ask because what I really wanted was >right-justified. It depends on whether or not you are formatting an ascii format or a numerical format. If _*you*_ want, take a look here: http://www.tmesis.com/SYMBOL/Using/RIGHT_JUSTIFY.COM You can right justify an ascii format but it requires a little more than just the F$fao. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:47:17 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: F$FAO question Message-ID: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:39:57 -0700, VAXman- <@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote: > In article , "Tom Linden" > writes: >> >> >> HAFNER> echo f$fao("!5AS","5") >> 5 >> >> This left-justifies the output. Now looking at the HELP description I >> see >> >> !n<...!> None Left-justifies and blank-fills all >> data >> represented by the instructions . . . >> in >> fields n characters wide. >> isn't this superfluous? I ask because what I really wanted was >> right-justified. > > It depends on whether or not you are formatting an ascii format or > a numerical format. > > If _*you*_ want, take a look here: > > http://www.tmesis.com/SYMBOL/Using/RIGHT_JUSTIFY.COM > > You can right justify an ascii format but it requires a little more > than just the F$fao. > Thanks, Brian. I still understand the purpose of the !n<...!> since that is what it does anyway. -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:14:08 GMT From: "Robert Jarratt" Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: > The biggest problem I've seen with older CD drives involves media > incompatibilities. These drives are as old or other than the beginning of > widespread use of recordable media formats, and these formats can be quite > difficult for the older drives due to differences in reflectivity. The > RRD42 has particular problems with some media formulations, but I've seen > various sorts of media incompatibilities across all of the drives. Newer > drives tend to have far fewer issues. In my case I borrowed an external RRD42 which was able to boot off exactly the same CD that I have also tried in the RRD43, so it can't be the media in this case. > I've seen any number of SCSI issues over the years, whether due to bus > under- or over-termination, addressing collisions, over-long buses, or bad > cables or other such. This is perhaps an avenue for investigation, although the RRD43 is an internal drive and I just removed one of the tiny internal disks and plugged the RRD43 in its place. The drive will read media when installed in this way once VMS is running, but the machine will not boot off it. I'll check the termination jumpers, but if the drive works under VMS then surely there can't be a termination/cabling issue, or can there? > If a CD installation kit is available, what I generally end up doing in > this case is BACKUP /IMAGE over to a scratch magnetic disk. Then the disk > is transfered over to the target device, and it can then be booted > directly, and installed onto (or can upgrade) a disk on the target system. > I can and do use this approach if there are time constraints with the > target system, or if I'm upgrading multiple systems, or if I'm using a > low-speed CD drive -- life is just too short to use an RRD42, or most any > other CD drive less than 8x for that matter. I used the BACKUP/IMAGE method you suggest, but I'd still like a bootable CD drive so I don't have to rely on one machine working to get another one going. Regards Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:21:08 GMT From: "Robert Jarratt" Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: <8%Msi.4204$mZ5.1849@newsfe6-win.ntli.net> I tried the email address you give, but it was bounced as undeliverable, is your signature correct? Regards Rob wrote in message news:c1qsi.25$6m7.5@newsfe12.lga... > In article , "Robert Jarratt" > writes: >> >> >>If you have a working RRD42 I would happily buy it. > > I do. In a previous post I said it is in an Infoserver 150VXT. I suppose > I could cannibalize the IS 150 for it as I really don't use it anyway. I > still don't understand why you would NOT want a newer RRD device. I think > I might have an M38 around here too. I will verify if a newer drive would > function in it and then we can talk. > > Contact me off-line about it. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > > http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:51:27 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Installing VMS without a bootable CD-ROM drive Message-ID: In article <8%Msi.4204$mZ5.1849@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>, "Robert Jarratt" writes: > > >I tried the email address you give, but it was bounced as undeliverable, is >your signature correct? Put: [PASS:VAXman] somewhere in the subject. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:49:14 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <1185924988.093607.305920@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >{...snip...} >I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > >Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other >planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO >OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. Until 9/11, >hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything >else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a >hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 Precisely! This is why I believe they tried to do as much damage on that one day as possible. Once we were wise to it, it would be very difficult for them to mount a similar type of attack in the future as passengers would not sit quietly facing possible/certain death without a fight. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:31:15 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46B3D6E3.A4D22D93@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > AEF wrote: > > > > > On Jul 31, 3:23 am, Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > On 07/29/07 15:26, David J Dachtera wrote: > > > > > > > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > >> On 07/29/07 02:16, Paul Raulerson wrote: > > > > >> [snip] > > > > >>> Just what exactly do you find wrong with that picture, beyond the > > > > >>> fact you have exaggerated the analogy? Your own history is pretty > > > > >>> well fraught with fighting those exact same "Indians." The > > > > >>> Netherlands has fought against Muslims for quite a while, > > > > >>> including ganging up against them with Portugal in Malaysia. > > > > >> Three words: Theo van Gogh. > > > > > > >>> Muslims never bothered us much before they starting slamming > > > > >>> airplanes into buildings. We never bothered them until they did > > > > >>> that either. Also remember, that wasn't their first attempt- just > > > > >>> their first really successful one. > > > > >> Two more words: Achille Lauro. > > > > > > > ...and as I implied at another point in all this, the fact that the flight crews > > > > > of those two planes LET them be flown into the WTC will stand before the entire > > > > > world as testimony to the U.S.'s greatest weakness. > > > > > > Boy do I agree with that!!!!! > > > > > > Since the 1970s, Americans[0] have been, in essence, told to bend > > > > over and accept being terrorized, raped, beaten, mugged, etc. > > > > > > The men of United 93 did a much greater service to this country than > > > > "just" preventing that plane from crashing into the WH or Capitol. > > > > > > [0] And possibly the Europeans too, but there's a different dynamic > > > > there, given that there haven't been pioneers in Europe since the > > > > neolithic era. > > > [...] > > > > > I believe the women on flight 93 helped out, too. > > > > > Anyway, help me out here. The people on flight 93 KNEW that the other > > > planes were deliberately slammed into buildings. They KNEW it was DO > > > OR DIE. The people on the other flights DID NOT KNOW THAT. > > > > When people stand up, brandish weapons that can cut/kill, and start making > > threats and giving orders (speculating here), what other logical conclusion is > > there? > > And just how were the passengers and crew supposed to know that this > was a different type of hijacking? I don't recall all passengers being > killed in previous hijackings. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, except > that it is useless when it's most needed. Well, let's see now... 1. The media are rife with reports of these nuts killing in the name of Allah. 2. I believe it was supposed to five nuts stand up, invoke Allah, threaten the crew and passengers. Now, under what circumstances would one *NOT* consider that no one was coming out that alive? > > > > > Until 9/11, > > > hijackers usually don't slam the plane into a building or anything > > > else that kills everyone aboard. IIRC they usually take the plane to a > > > hostile country or make some demands or whatever. Also, the 9/11 > > > hijackers probably killed the pilots. I really find it hard to believe > > > any pilot would allow someone to fly his plane into a building. > > > > Once control is relinquished, the consequences are irrelevant. (Oh, sorry - you > > don't believe in consequences, do you?). > > You lost me here. I never said I didn't believe in consequences. Try > again. No need to try again. Got it right the first time. > > > > > Are > > > the two of you blaming the pilots for getting killed? Don't forget > > > that the element of surprise can be an enormous advantage. What did > > > you expect them to do? > > > > The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) are explicit: "The final responsibility > > for the safe conduct of any flight rests solely with the pilot-in-command". > > > > (I know - that's an absolute, and you don't believe in absolutes, either.) > > And YOU never made a mistake when YOU were responsible for something? > Please. I suppose we should condemn the police who were gunned down by > crooks while we're at it. And condemn all those commanders who lost > ships and tanks and planes in all the wars. Gee, it was their > responsibility not to get shot down and to instead destroy the enemy. > Get real. I am, thank you very much. > Try again. No need - got it right the first time. ...oh, and by the way: abandoning one's primary responsibility is not a "mistake". > > > > > Talk about blaming the victim. Talk about being overcritical. > > > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth > > defending. > > Talk about utter nonsense!!! Try again. Actually, don't -- I'm tired > of this nonsense. If duty, courage and honor are "utter nonsense" to you, then I guess you're hopeless. As for me, no need to try again - I got it right the first time. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:44:32 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <46B3DA00.9BED3F39@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Aug 1, 10:16 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > [snip] > > Talk about having a backbone and actually believing in something worth > > defending. > > I'll try one more stab at it. > > Based on previous (-to-9/11) experience, the most likely outcome of a > hijacking would be that most passengers would live and the plane WOULD > NOT be flown into a building or similar. Under what circumstances would it be appropriate to apply such probability theories in a situation involving psychotic, suicidal/homicidal criminals intent upon commiting the gravest of crimes/sins? > Since the outcome of fighting > them would likely result in a crash landing, killing all, it would be > prudent, BASED ON THE KNOWLEDGE AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, to NOT attack > the hijackers. Oh, yeah right. They'll just land the plane, put everyone off, then take off again to go commit their heinous acts. M----- F---, man, are you even listening to yourself? > People make mistakes. They have heart attacks and strokes. This will > cause occasional failures. Get used to it. Are you perfect? WTF does that have to do with anything? > Defending what? Vigilante-ism? Duty, courage and honor. Look 'em up if you need to. They are used to defend freedom, liberty and the innocent. I'll expend no further effort to this pursuit. I'd do better trying to describe color to someone who was born blind. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 18:33:55 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: >In article >, >"Main, Kerry" writes: >> I have set my client to wrap at 76 characters, so it seems various newsread= >> ers interpret things differently or Info-VAX is not handling it correctly. >> >> As I mentioned before, based on offline feedback I received awhile ago, oth= >> ers with different newsreaders seem to have no issues. >As the above shows, they are still being sent quoted-printable when >there is no need to do so. Quoted-printable isn't a problem. After all, it's part of an internet standard, and not a new one. It was even created to enable sending of 8 bit text over a possible 7 bit channel such as Usenet. I use a newsreader that doesn't obey quoted-printable so those posts don't look correct to me, but that's my problem. (aside: why didn't they use a more obscure character than "=" as the escape so there wouldn't be so many of the escaped escape like the "=3D"?) The problem is the Microsoft-style 1 line per paragraph text, which would look just as bad on a character cell terminal window with a newsreader that does understand quoted-printable. The other problem (the one starting the thread) is the lack of a References: line in the header. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 20:19:08 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <007801c7d635$7530c650$5f9252f0$@com> I just went to all the trouble of pulling the same message down, from a blasted newsgroup no less, under SuSE 10.2 using tin and guess what? It formatted just fine - even under a text based console window. Same under Firefox. Could it be you are using an ancient version or something? -Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com] > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 12:42 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Kerry needs a news readerRe: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > For example, I've yet to see one of Kerry's messages that does *not* > > format nicely, on any of the machines I use. I even looked at it > using tin > > on a Linux box connecting to a newsgroup, and saw no issues. > > BTW, I'm reading this message using 'tin' on Linux, and it most > definitely > did not format nicely. Parts of words started at the end of one line > and > finished at the beginning of another. > > Zane ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:04:51 -0700 From: tadamsmar Subject: Layered products not available on IA64 Message-ID: <1186171491.511486.264310@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> Looking here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_h.html CDD is not even listed as "Planned"? What's with that? Do they even plan to upgrade it? I think it is required to use the "Dictionary" statement in Fortran. We use it to make Datatrieve record structures available to Fortran. I wonder if they have a workaround for this one? Datatrieve is listed as "Planned". I don't know when they are planning to finish it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:06:28 +0200 From: "Martin Vorlaender" Subject: Re: Layered products not available on IA64 Message-ID: tadamsmar wrote: > Looking here: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_h.html > > CDD is not even listed as "Planned"? What's with that? Do they even > plan to upgrade it? > > I think it is required to use the "Dictionary" statement in Fortran. > We use it to make Datatrieve record structures available to Fortran. > > I wonder if they have a workaround for this one? > > Datatrieve is listed as "Planned". I don't know when they are > planning to finish it. CDD has been sold to Oracle. If you look under http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/i64partner_o.html it says "available" for the Oracle Rdb Suite (Rdb, CDD, Trace, and Codasyl DBMS). cu, Martin -- One OS to rule them all | Martin Vorlaender | OpenVMS rules! One OS to find them | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de One OS to bring them all | http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin.vorlaender@t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 08:28:23 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: Problem spec refinement Message-ID: Hi Michael, Thanks for the reply and please let me take this opportunity to publicly thank Richard Whalen for his help and solutions with these issues. > I will bet that an upcoming UCXDRIVER ECO will contain > a fix for this. I fold. (Evidently a wise decision :-) > I can't recall a customer call that ever mentioned OOB. I don't know if any > of the MultiNet applications make use of it, I think telnet might but it > doesn't use BG. Don't feel too bad; Java Server Sockets don't even provide a way to get the OOB (unless inlined). But OOBs are an extremely useful server-interrupt mechanism and I'm willing to wager that a lot more of your customers will be using them in the not too distant future. > We try to make Multinet's UCXDRIVER compatible with UCX's > but obviously we sometimes fail. We do try to fix things when they are reported > to us. No one can question the veracity of those statements on this occasion. Thanks again. Cheers Richard Maher PS. I said I'd report back on the ss$_suspend issue; here 'tis: - 1) If you specify the io$m_nowait when attemting to read an OOB then Multinet always returns ss$_suspend even if the OOB character is there. It appears that io$m_nowait is inappropriate for OOB reads as there is no such thing as an asynchronous/delayed OOB with sockets. (If it's there you get it and if it isn't you get ss$_badparam) I've changed my code to drop the io$m_nowait modifier and, to date, am happy but I just wanted to point out that UCX simply ignores it. 2) My other guess (About read attention ASTs and ss$_suspend) turned out to be wrong. It's actually *ss$_shut* that is the problem :-( Please *never, ever, ever* return this status unless the network is shutting down. I observed this behaviour with 5.0: - When a read attention AST is outstanding and the client closes the connection then the AST fires just as it should (and as UCX does) but a subsequent (Hey, we're in a Read Attention AST so there should be something there to read, right?) returns ss$_shut instead of ss$_linkdiscon. I have had to code around this by using an asynchronous read (as opposed to the readattn AST) and once again, to date, am happy, but it is another inconsistency with UCX and the inappropriate use of the "Networks going down people" status is a concern. "Michael Corbett" wrote in message news:46B08B79.1040907@process.com... > Richard Maher wrote: > > > > > I've got two sheep stations and an oil-rig that says Multinet is not > > resetting the OOB flag after a succesful oob read; Let's see your cards! Any > > chance someone's gonna fix this? > > I won't take that bet. I will bet that an upcoming UCXDRIVER ECO will contain > a fix for this. > > > > > > Nobody using OOB functionality with Multinet? No application development > > with Multinet/ Just use the spoon-fed tools out of the box? If it ain't SSH > > it just ain't? You really need UCX if you're serious about rolling your own? > > > > I can't recall a customer call that ever mentioned OOB. I don't know if any > of the MultiNet applications make use of it, I think telnet might but it > doesn't use BG. We try to make Multinet's UCXDRIVER compatible with UCX's > but obviously we sometimes fail. We do try to fix things when they are reported > to us. > > regards > Mike > > > > > > > Cheers Richard Maher > > > > PS. I've also tried *not* resetting the OOB AST a second time to see if > > Multinet is a set and forget type of thing, but then it only fires the once > > (as documented). > > > > PPS. I'm the guy that found the buffer-overflowing stack-corrupter that is > > Multinet's io$_acpcontrol (at least for inetacp$c_trans > > inetacp_func$c_gethostbyaddr). > > > > PPPS. I still believe Multinet is trigger-happy with ss$_suspend leading it > > to conceal a broken network connection when ss$_linkdiscon would be the > > appropriate error status, but I'll have to change my OOBATTN testing to > > READATTN testing and that issue isn't really bothering me anyway. (If I'm > > wrong I will report back) > > > > "Richard Maher" wrote in message > > news:f8haps$o5a$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > >> Hi, > >> > >> This question's easier than the first one so please help if you've done > >> this. I'd simply like to see a $QIO _BG: driver example example of a > > server > >> (or client) receiving an OOB character (*NOT* IN-LINED) from their partner > >> and displaying it. I have code that works perfectly well on UCX and > > TCPware > >> but on Multinet the following happens: - > >> > >> My works and the AST fires as expected. > >> Then I go to read the OOB character with a $qio > >> plus ucx$c_msg_oob as P4 - and the results I get vary from ss$_badparam to > >> ss$_suspended > >> So I say great, it was a false alarm and reset the OOBATTN AST which then > >> fires immediately and says "Nope there's definitely an OOB character here! > >> (It's just that we're not gonna let you read it, so loop around madly for > > a > >> while :-)" > >> > >> Has anyone else experienced this or alternatively got a working example > >> they'd be willing to share? > >> > >> Is the ss$_badparam really telling me there's a bad parameter and not just > > a > >> missing OOB? > >> Would a previous io$_sensemode have interfered with the sioatmark? > >> Is there some incantation or dead-chicken-waving such as > >> rather than using P4 flags? > >> (As a side issue and although I can't produce an example here, I am also > >> open to the idea that elsewhere Multinet will return a ss$_suspended to a > >> non-blocking read even if the pipe is broken, but that's one for another > >> day) > >> > >> I must be doing something wrong but the fact that it's rockin' and rollin' > >> on UCX is a bit off-putting. > >> > >> Thanks for any help. > >> > >> Cheers Richard Maher > >> > >> PS. Is it just me that thinks TCPware is a *whole* lot more UCX BG Driver > >> compatible than Multinet? > >> > >> > >> "David J Dachtera" wrote in message > >> news:46A22998.AA9FBC45@spam.comcast.net... > >>> Richard Maher wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> Alpha VMS 7.3-1 and Multinet 5.0 and the $QIO interface to the BG: > >> driver. > >>>> When I try to set the Socket Option ucx$c_full_duplex_close (on its > > own, > >> or > >>>> in the same call to create the socket) I get SS$_PROTOCOL returned. > >>>> > >>>> This option is obviously available in UCX, and the TCPWare docs say > > it's > >>>> been supported for the last ten years but somehow it's never been > >> included > >>>> with Multinet. Is that correct? Is there a version later than 5.0 that > >>>> supports it? > >>>> > >>>> I'm now having to code around the problem (by trying for FDC and if I > >> get > >>>> ss$_protocol then drop the option) but full_duplex_close is a pretty > >> damned > >>>> useful piece of functionality and I'm really curious as to the reasons > >>>> behind the lack of support or whether there are any plans to include > > it > >> in a > >>>> future version? > >>> I've cross-posted to the Multinet newsgroup. Perhaps someone from PSC > > will > >>> respond. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> David J Dachtera > >>> dba DJE Systems > >>> http://www.djesys.com/ > >>> > >>> Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > >>> http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > >>> > >>> Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > >>> http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > >>> > >>> Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > >>> http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > >>> > >>> Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > >>> http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:52:55 -0500 From: Chris Scheers Subject: Re: Problem with STABACKIT.COM and TLZ drives Message-ID: <5hhpu5F3kcruiU1@mid.individual.net> Bob Koehler wrote: > In article <1186069503.617052.127600@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: > >> Magtape IDS03$MKA300:, device type DEC TLZ07, is online, record- >> oriented device, >> [...] >> >> Can I just change the 60's above to 28's or should I just not make >> standalone backup kits on TLZ drives and why? > > Can you boot from those drives? There's no point in puting a > STABACKIT on a drive you can't boot from. FWIW: A VMS 7.3 STABACKIT tape boots from a generic DAT drive on my VAXstation 4000-90. And it boots much faster than a TK50 STABACKIT in the TZ30 drive. A STABACKIT tape built on VMS 5.5-2 would not boot from the DAT drive. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc. Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: chris@applied-synergy.com Fax: 817-237-3074 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:57:08 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Memory bandwidth isn't (I'm told) as good as it was on Alpha. I think > that's a "yet" rather than a "will never be". Greg Jordan's OpenVMS Performance Update session from HPTF 2007 shows the rx7640 and rx8640 have higher memory bandwidth than the GS-1280, and the rx2600, rx2620, rx3600, and rx4640 have higher memory bandwidth than the ES45 (the rx3600 actually has about twice the memory bandwidth of the ES45). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:21:55 -0500 From: Jeff Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > You don't get much higher level that Ada or PL/I, the two notable > discontinuities where HP has declined to provide support. Be sure to correctly understand "HP has declined to provide support". In particular, is *not* the same as "no support." Ada is available on OpenVMS I64 from a third party, AdaCore. Customers can obtain support for this compiler from AdaCore if they wish. With respect to PL/I, I know of no solution available on OpenVMS I64, whether from HP or from anyone else. I don't claim to be an expert in PL/I compiler availability, so my knowledge should be considered incomplete. -Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:28:32 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 10:57:08 -0700, Keith Parris wrote: > etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> Memory bandwidth isn't (I'm told) as good as it was on Alpha. I think >> that's a "yet" rather than a "will never be". > > Greg Jordan's OpenVMS Performance Update session from HPTF 2007 shows > the rx7640 and rx8640 have higher memory bandwidth than the GS-1280, and > the rx2600, rx2620, rx3600, and rx4640 have higher memory bandwidth than > the ES45 (the rx3600 actually has about twice the memory bandwidth of > the ES45). Yes, but it needs higher bandwidth just to offer the same throughput owing to the EPIC architecture -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:14:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <6c4b2$46b37e9b$cef8887a$11655@TEKSAVVY.COM> Keith Parris wrote: > "The current Integrity systems perform better than existing Alpha > systems in most cases It is a tribute to Alpha that a 2001 generation chip (that is when EV7 was originally expected, right ?) still prevents a 2007 IA64 from claiming "in all cases". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:19:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Keith Parris wrote: > Greg Jordan's OpenVMS Performance Update session from HPTF 2007 shows > the rx7640 and rx8640 have higher memory bandwidth than the GS-1280, and > the rx2600, rx2620, rx3600, and rx4640 have higher memory bandwidth than > the ES45 (the rx3600 actually has about twice the memory bandwidth of > the ES45). Sorry for my memory failures (no EEC or Parity in my bio memory pack), but is VMS qalified to sun on Superdomes yet ? Last I heard, they made it run on those C class wintel blade server enclosures that also support IA64 cards. Don't recall hearing about VMS on superdomes. If not yet available on superdomes, I am curious about why, what sort of technical architecture would prevent VMS from taking advantage of a Superdome. Or is it purely a political decision to not allow VMS to take better advantage of a superdome vs HP-UX ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:24:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Jeff wrote: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Be sure to correctly understand "HP has declined to provide support". In > particular, is *not* the same as "no support." In the case of PL1, the story has been alluded to here on cov some time ago. On Alpha, the PL1 compiler has full access to te GEM stuff. HP has declined to provide access to the GEM stuff on IA64 which would have allowed a proper port of the product. I would use "refused" intead of "declined" since the decision to prevent the company to port PL1 was a very active decision. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:59:02 -0400 From: "Stanley F. Quayle" Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <46B350C6.12067.32FE3DB@squayle.insight.rr.com> On 2 Aug 2007 at 20:22, John Wallace wrote: > By far the least reliable bit of a typical Proliant these days is not > hardware, it's Windows. But try telling that to the people doing > VMware-based (or similar) server consolidation (or to those about to > throw away a real VMS box to replace it with Charon?). I hate Windows, too. But it's an okay environment to run a singe application. I used to develop a product that ran on DOS -- it was great as long as you didn't expect much. As far as CHARON goes, it IS a VMS box. And 90% of my customers want Windows. Not for technical reasons, mind you. Don't complain to me - -it's just the way it is. You want CHARON on Linux (or some other OS)? Commit to buy a whole bunch of copies, and I can get that done. --Stan Quayle Quayle Consulting Inc. ---------- Stanley F. Quayle, P.E. N8SQ Toll free: 1-888-I-LUV-VAX 8572 North Spring Ct., Pickerington, OH 43147 USA stan-at-stanq-dot-com http://www.stanq.com/charon-vax.html "OpenVMS, when downtime is not an option" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:26:51 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > (Buying it from HP probably requires you know some magic incantation, > and/or go through Cerner which supposedly has a deal to continue to make > Alphas available to its clients) No magic incantation needed: see http://www.hp.com/products/hprenew/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:31:29 -0600 From: Keith Parris Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: Keith Parris wrote: > No magic incantation needed: see http://www.hp.com/products/hprenew/ And in the Americas, HP Financial Services also sells certified "pre-owned" systems with a program called Technology Value Solutions (TVS): http://www.hp.com/hpfinancialservices/preowned ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:51:05 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: On 08/03/07 14:59, Stanley F. Quayle wrote: > On 2 Aug 2007 at 20:22, John Wallace wrote: >> By far the least reliable bit of a typical Proliant these days is not >> hardware, it's Windows. But try telling that to the people doing >> VMware-based (or similar) server consolidation (or to those about to >> throw away a real VMS box to replace it with Charon?). > > I hate Windows, too. But it's an okay environment to run a singe > application. I used to develop a product that ran on DOS -- it was > great as long as you didn't expect much. > > As far as CHARON goes, it IS a VMS box. And 90% of my customers want > Windows. Not for technical reasons, mind you. Don't complain to me - > -it's just the way it is. > > You want CHARON on Linux (or some other OS)? Commit to buy a whole > bunch of copies, and I can get that done. I was actually quite surprised to see that Charon was hosted on Windows instead of Unix/Linux. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 17:46:36 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: In article , Keith Parris writes: > Keith Parris wrote: >> No magic incantation needed: see http://www.hp.com/products/hprenew/ > > And in the Americas, HP Financial Services also sells certified > "pre-owned" systems with a program called Technology Value Solutions > (TVS): http://www.hp.com/hpfinancialservices/preowned Blank page in 2 out of 2 browsers. 7 errors from http://validator.w3.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 00:29:56 +0000 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: August 3, 2007 3:15 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? > > Keith Parris wrote: > > > "The current Integrity systems perform better than existing Alpha > > systems in most cases > > It is a tribute to Alpha that a 2001 generation chip (that is when EV7 > was originally expected, right ?) still prevents a 2007 IA64 from > claiming "in all cases". > I am sure there are some specific cases of code where the same could be sta= ted for VAX beating Alpha. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT) OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:32:51 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? Message-ID: <93c93$46b3d743$cef8887a$18984@TEKSAVVY.COM> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> (TVS): http://www.hp.com/hpfinancialservices/preowned > > Blank page in 2 out of 2 browsers. I concurr. But when you turn on javascript (I know you are genetically incapable of doing this...), it redirects to: > http://h20330.www2.hp.com/hpfinancialservices/cache/257411-0-0-225-121.html And the above isn't a blank page, even with javascript disabled. > > 7 errors from http://validator.w3.org Well, that would be just the javascript stub that does the redirect. The long URL above shows 15 errors which isn't bad for a wintel corporation. (mostly non-existant tags which Microsoft still uses) Air Canada used to have about 700 errors on its front page, and at one point, it made a quick press release after the shutdown of a competitor, and it was a 2 paragraph text containing 750 errors ! Bell Canada just refuses to serve the contents of a page if you are not using a browser you like (they got a marketing alliance with Microsoft - guess which browser they support ?) ------------------------------ Date: 3 Aug 2007 15:49:04 -0500 From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Stay on Alpha forever? (that is where the compilers are) Message-ID: In article , Jeff writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > You don't get much higher level that Ada or PL/I, the two notable >> discontinuities where HP has declined to provide support. > Ada is available on OpenVMS I64 from a third party, AdaCore. Customers > can obtain support for this compiler from AdaCore if they wish. But it is not up to the quality standards needed for VMS compilers. For example, it does not provide machine code listings indicating the exact address within a module of a particular instruction. For a problem that can only be reproduced on the machine of a security sensitive customer, an address in memory might be all we can get out of them. Since that is a show stopper, I have not checked to see whether it is source compatible with the VAX and Alpha compilers provided by DEC/Compaq/HP. Since there was a disconnect in exception handling capabilities going from VAX to Alpha, it hardly seems possible that a different company's Unix-centric compiler would match either one. Even if one considered going to the effort of _switching_ to GNAT one would still not have an application that would build on all of VAX, Alpha and Itanium, because GNAT is not offered for VAX. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 21:46:57 -0400 From: Robert Deininger Subject: Re: terminal servers, X-terminals in upgrade to Integrity Message-ID: In article <1186151246.269204.56800@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, tadamsmar wrote: > We have some Xyplex Maxserver 1600s. Xyplex was apparently bought by > MRV. > > And, we have some old Tektronics X-terminals that are no longer > supported by Tektronics. > > These upload from and communicate with Alphas running OpenVMS. > > I wonder if these will work if I upgrade to Integrity Servers? > > I can find any of the products or vendors listed in the HP application > status report: > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/matrix/partner_s.html > > which seems to indicate that I would not be able to install on > Integrity Servers. But the files for upload are the only thing > installed, I think. Alpha already had support for the communication > protocols, I think. > > But if I have all the files from the Alpha in place on Integrity, and > if Integrity supports the devices, then in theory they should work. > > Right, wrong, or depends? How do the Alpha systems communicate with these devices? Both LAT and MOP protocols are available on Integrity. That doesn't mean every device using these protocols is guaranteed to work. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:06:53 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <46B38ADD.2060309@comcast.net> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article <46B3275C.70509@comcast.net>, > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article , >>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>> >>> >>>>In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >>>> >>>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >>>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >>>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) >>> >>> >>>Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless >>>you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). >> >> >> >>Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug >>which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". > > > And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off > telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind > for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. > > >>Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! >>There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no >>means "secure"! > > > You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still > growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the > industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as > the VMS community. > > bill > Do you suppose that the reason Unix is growing and VMS is shrinking might happen to have more to do with marketing than with technical merit? Both get the job done, both have their strengths and both have weaknesses. I run VMS, Solaris, RHEL, and Windows XP at home. Windows gets the most usage because that's where the applications are: Quicken, TurboTax, FamilyTreeMaker, etc, etc. VMS and Solaris each do things I can't do with Windows or do them better or more easily than Windows. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:10:27 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <1186175427.220482.24650@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com> On Aug 3, 3:06 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > In article <46B3275C.70...@comcast.net>, > > "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > >>>In article , > >>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: > > >>>>In article <1186097570.039629.170...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > >>>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who > >>>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. > > >>>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire > >>>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure > >>>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) > > >>>Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless > >>>you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). > > >> > > >>Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug > >>which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". > > > And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off > > telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind > > for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. > > >>Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! > >>There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no > >>means "secure"! > > > You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still > > growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the > > industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as > > the VMS community. > > > bill > > Do you suppose that the reason Unix is growing and VMS is shrinking > might happen to have more to do with marketing than with technical merit? > A) Exposure & availability: *nix doesn't need heavy marketing because so many companies sell some brand of *nix. Everyone has already heard about *nix and all a company needs to to is mention it, not explain what it is. You can spend from nearly $.00 to big-money and get a *nix for whatever purpose you want. If you don't like Brand A, you can get Brand B, C, D, E, ... B) Flexibility: You can make it small enough to embed in a toaster or large enough to run a data center. Much of its often-discussed "weakness" is the due to its flexibility. If you accept that all complex code is likely to have bugs, then you should also accept that the more people there are who use the code and the more different things they use it for, the more likely it is that a bug will be exposed. > Both get the job done, both have their strengths and both have > weaknesses. I run VMS, Solaris, RHEL, and Windows XP at home. Windows > gets the most usage because that's where the applications are: Quicken, > TurboTax, FamilyTreeMaker, etc, etc. VMS and Solaris each do things I > can't do with Windows or do them better or more easily than Windows. C) Applications, applications, applications, applications,... It's the applications! (seems I've heard that before;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:31:54 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <46B3C8FA.1000102@comcast.net> Doug Phillips wrote: > On Aug 3, 3:06 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > wrote: > >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >>>In article <46B3275C.70...@comcast.net>, >>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>>>In article , >>>>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>> >>>>>>In article <1186097570.039629.170...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>>>> >>>>>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>>>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >>>>>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >>>>>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) >>>>> >>>>>Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless >>>>>you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). >>>> >>>> >>> >>>>Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug >>>>which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". >>> >>>And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off >>>telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind >>>for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. >> >>>>Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! >>>>There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no >>>>means "secure"! >>> >>>You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still >>>growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the >>>industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as >>>the VMS community. >> >>>bill >> >>Do you suppose that the reason Unix is growing and VMS is shrinking >>might happen to have more to do with marketing than with technical merit? >> > > > A) Exposure & availability: *nix doesn't need heavy marketing because > so many companies sell some brand of *nix. Everyone has already heard > about *nix and all a company needs to to is mention it, not explain > what it is. You can spend from nearly $.00 to big-money and get a *nix > for whatever purpose you want. If you don't like Brand A, you can get > Brand B, C, D, E, ... > > B) Flexibility: You can make it small enough to embed in a toaster or > large enough to run a data center. Much of its often-discussed > "weakness" is the due to its flexibility. > If you accept that all complex code is likely to have bugs, then > you should also accept that the more people there are who use the code > and the more different things they use it for, the more likely it is > that a bug will be exposed. > > > >>Both get the job done, both have their strengths and both have >>weaknesses. I run VMS, Solaris, RHEL, and Windows XP at home. Windows >>gets the most usage because that's where the applications are: Quicken, >>TurboTax, FamilyTreeMaker, etc, etc. VMS and Solaris each do things I >>can't do with Windows or do them better or more easily than Windows. > > > C) Applications, applications, applications, applications,... > > It's the applications! (seems I've heard that before;-) > > The "common wisdom" is, "pick the applications you want to run and then buy the platform they run on". Sometimes an app is available on multiple platforms and you get a choice. Once upon a time, Digital published a book that listed the applications available for VMS. The book was a thick one and listed thousands of applications. In a former life, I installed VMS on VAXstations with a construction cost estimating application. It was proprietary and written in Fortran. I inquired of the vendor once about an Alpha version. The vendor replied "NEVER". I pointed out that the port was almost certainly only a matter of recompiling and they said "NEVER", "NO WAY IN HELL"! I have no idea what the company I worked for then is using now but it probably doesn't run under VMS any more. My guess is that the vendor was losing money on the VMS version as it was and had no intention of getting any deeper in the swamp! If I had to guess, I'd say that the software is available on Unix and/or Windows. I'd also guess that if you want to run an application on VMS these days you either use a legacy application that's still supported by the vendor or you "roll your own"! ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 2007 01:42:05 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hi3rdF3jtvpqU1@mid.individual.net> In article <46B38ADD.2060309@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article <46B3275C.70509@comcast.net>, >> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>>In article , >>>> koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article <1186097570.039629.170140@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >>>>> >>>>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >>>>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >>>>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) >>>> >>>> >>>>Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless >>>>you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). >>> >>> >>> >>>Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug >>>which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". >> >> >> And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off >> telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind >> for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. >> >> >>>Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! >>>There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no >>>means "secure"! >> >> >> You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still >> growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the >> industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as >> the VMS community. >> >> bill >> > > Do you suppose that the reason Unix is growing and VMS is shrinking > might happen to have more to do with marketing than with technical merit? You can suppose that if you wish. I might have several years ago. I probably wouldn't today although I will admit (and have frequently stated) that marketing could have made VMS more popular. Today, I doubt they would ever be willing to spend the money needed to catch back up to ral Unix, much less Linux. > > Both get the job done, both have their strengths and both have > weaknesses. I run VMS, Solaris, RHEL, and Windows XP at home. Windows > gets the most usage because that's where the applications are: Quicken, > TurboTax, FamilyTreeMaker, etc, etc. VMS and Solaris each do things I > can't do with Windows or do them better or more easily than Windows. All OSes get some job done. Even Primos. All OSes have strengths and weaknesses. Only two have fans bordering on the fanatic who are blind to the rest of them. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 2007 01:47:45 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hi461F3jtvpqU2@mid.individual.net> In article <46B3C8FA.1000102@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > Doug Phillips wrote: >> On Aug 3, 3:06 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >> wrote: >> >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> >>>>In article <46B3275C.70...@comcast.net>, >>>> "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: >>> >>>>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>> >>>>>>In article , >>>>>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >>>>> >>>>>>>In article <1186097570.039629.170...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>Many of which run *nix, but are single-purpose appliances and who >>>>>>>>cares what they run as long as they do the job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, but you can get those which aren't. (I know an entire >>>>>>> infrastructure protected by firewalls running on Solaris, I sure >>>>>>> hope they keep up the OS patch level.) >>>>>> >>>>>>Why? There is no access to raw Solaris for outsiders to attack (unless >>>>>>you are talking about homegrown firewalls rather than commercial offerings). >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>>Not true! Unpatched Solaris 8, 8, & 10 with Telnet enabled has a bug >>>>>which will allow an attacker to log in as "bin". >>>> >>>>And you are assuming that the vendor would not gtell them to turn off >>>>telnet. I have had telnet turned off on every server box of any kind >>>>for years. I doubt any commercial firewall relies on telnet for access. >>> >>>>>Solaris isn't as easy as Windows but it does have vulnerabilities! >>>>>There are a lot of things you can do to "lock it down" but it is by no >>>>>means "secure"! >>>> >>>>You guys keep telling yourselves that. Meanwhile, Unix is still >>>>growing market share and VMS is shrinking. Seems the rest of the >>>>industry just doesn't seem to have as many problems with it as >>>>the VMS community. >>> >>>>bill >>> >>>Do you suppose that the reason Unix is growing and VMS is shrinking >>>might happen to have more to do with marketing than with technical merit? >>> >> >> >> A) Exposure & availability: *nix doesn't need heavy marketing because >> so many companies sell some brand of *nix. Everyone has already heard >> about *nix and all a company needs to to is mention it, not explain >> what it is. You can spend from nearly $.00 to big-money and get a *nix >> for whatever purpose you want. If you don't like Brand A, you can get >> Brand B, C, D, E, ... >> >> B) Flexibility: You can make it small enough to embed in a toaster or >> large enough to run a data center. Much of its often-discussed >> "weakness" is the due to its flexibility. >> If you accept that all complex code is likely to have bugs, then >> you should also accept that the more people there are who use the code >> and the more different things they use it for, the more likely it is >> that a bug will be exposed. >> >> >> >>>Both get the job done, both have their strengths and both have >>>weaknesses. I run VMS, Solaris, RHEL, and Windows XP at home. Windows >>>gets the most usage because that's where the applications are: Quicken, >>>TurboTax, FamilyTreeMaker, etc, etc. VMS and Solaris each do things I >>>can't do with Windows or do them better or more easily than Windows. >> >> >> C) Applications, applications, applications, applications,... >> >> It's the applications! (seems I've heard that before;-) >> >> > > The "common wisdom" is, "pick the applications you want to run and then > buy the platform they run on". Sometimes an app is available on > multiple platforms and you get a choice. > > Once upon a time, Digital published a book that listed the applications > available for VMS. The book was a thick one and listed thousands of > applications. Actually, I still have that book. I also have the equivalent for the PDP-11. Why do I say "rquivalent"? Because it was two books and had a lot more entries than the one for VMS. Looks like it was long before the dreaded VAX -> Alpha migration when Digital lost sight of why people buy computers in the first place. > > In a former life, I installed VMS on VAXstations with a construction > cost estimating application. It was proprietary and written in Fortran. > I inquired of the vendor once about an Alpha version. The vendor > replied "NEVER". I pointed out that the port was almost certainly only > a matter of recompiling and they said "NEVER", "NO WAY IN HELL"! I have > no idea what the company I worked for then is using now but it probably > doesn't run under VMS any more. > > My guess is that the vendor was losing money on the VMS version as it > was and had no intention of getting any deeper in the swamp! If I had > to guess, I'd say that the software is available on Unix and/or Windows. > > I'd also guess that if you want to run an application on VMS these days > you either use a legacy application that's still supported by the vendor > or you "roll your own"! And there are less and less people everyday "rolling their own"!!! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 2007 01:59:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hi4s3F3k6tdtU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu On >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> Sent: August 3, 2007 10:19 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> In article >> > t>, >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: bill@cs.uofs.edu On >> >> Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon >> >> Sent: August 2, 2007 8:49 AM >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> >> >> In article >> >> >> > >> t>, >> >> "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Anton Shterenlikht >> >> >> Sent: August 1, 2007 7:25 AM >> >> >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> >> >> Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 31, 2007 at 08:45:34PM -0500, Paul Raulerson wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > It sounds to me like our friend here is involved in a "prove >> it!" >> >> >> issue with >> >> >> > the VMS systems, and so getting them up and running is more >> >> >> profitable than >> >> >> > worrying about SPOF issues right now; let the SPOF issues >> become >> >> >> a problem >> >> >> > for the "unix people" would be my way of handling it. >> >> >> >> >> >> that's about right >> >> >> >> >> > Anton, >> >> > >> >> > Is the concern the network folks have related to non-TCPIP >> protocols >> >> on the=3D3D >> >> > net or OpenVMS itself? >> >> > >> >> > If it is network protocols, they are worried about, then setting >> up a >> >> priva=3D3D >> >> > te VLAN for the cluster SCS traffic and restricting the primary >> NICs >> >> to TCP=3D3D >> >> > IP only would solve that. >> >> >> >> Sadly, that will not protect the bandwidth if they percieve the >> >> protocol >> >> as too "chatty". You would need an entire, separate physical >> network. >> >> Which is, of course, also doable. >> >> >> > >> > Huh? >> > >> > VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use >> a sep=3D >> > arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen >> on the =3D >> > main network. >> > >> > Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" >> >> You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you >> honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the >> limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just >> one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, >> which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box >> and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) >> > > I don't think you understand VLAN's and the way they work with normal route= > rs today. P Of course I do, do you? A VLAN is independant only within the single box. If it leaves the box, via a trunk, you only have the bqandwidth of that one port, n o matter how many VLANS you have. So, if your VLAN is going to be located in one place with all the devices on it connected to one box (like in the computer room) then using the KISS priciple it makes more sense to just use a separate switch (what do they cost today $50?) and avoid the complexity of setting up VLANS to accomplish the same thing. It's really not what VLANS were intended to do. > >> > >> >> > >> >> > If they are worried about OpenVMS security, I guess that is a an >> >> education =3D3D >> >> > problem. >> >> > >> >> > [Can't help smiling on this - what they are doing is like >> protecting >> >> a poli=3D3D >> >> > ce station by placing a rent-a-cop in front of it.] >> >> > >> >> >:-) >> >> >> >> Your opinion. The rest of the industry just doesn't see your >> "legacy" >> >> product as offering any increase in security that it needs over >> Unix. >> >> Of course, you have this notion that every Unix box ont he planet is >> >> hacked at least 5 times a day and evidence to the contrary is just >> >> swept aside. >> >> >> > >> > Nope - never stated that. >> > >> > Linux I stated had 5-20 security patches per month and that is a fact >> as ev=3D >> > idenced on the RH security web site. Anyone can go there and count >> them up =3D >> > themselves. >> >> Damn, now your starting to sound like Bob. Read my lips. VMS never >> reports to CERT so there is no way to make a realistic comparison. >> > > Sure it does. Hey, you are now starting to sound like Andrew. Of the two, I consider that a compliment. > >:-) > > >> > >> > UNIX no. >> > >> > You are simply being to sensitive and feel you need to protect your >> preferr=3D >> > ed platform. >> >> Actually, I just attack FUD. >> > > But you simply use FUD (i.e. your personal opinion based on your personal v= > iew of the universe) to attack what you think is FUD. > > Being a UNIX person, it is hard for you to understand how things are done w= > hen you do not have a UNIX focus. Once again, bullcrap. I worked with a lot of different OSes long before I touched my first Unix box. Some of them were better, some were worse. Most of them are no more. I have been working with computers since before Unix or VMS even existed. I can tell bullcrap when I see it. > >> > >> >> > >> >> > Here are a few security whitepapers that may be of interest to >> your >> >> network=3D3D >> >> > folks: >> >> > >> >> > http://h71028.www7.hp.com/ERC/downloads/4AA0-2896ENW.pdf >> >> > This whitepaper presents an overview of OpenVMS security and its >> role >> >> in en=3D3D >> >> > terprise business continuity. The whitepaper supports the >> conclusion >> >> that I=3D3D >> >> > T environments requiring elevated security capabilities need >> OpenVMS >> >> now mo=3D3D >> >> > re than ever, whether on HP Integrity servers, AlphaServer >> systems, >> >> or a co=3D3D >> >> > mbination of both. (November 2005) >> >> > >> >> > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/whitepapers/TCS_2004.pdf >> >> > Techwise Research - This whitepaper provides a detailed comparison >> of >> >> poten=3D3D >> >> > tial vulnerabilities and security-related cluster crashes for HP >> >> OpenVMS, I=3D3D >> >> > BM AIX, and Sun Solaris Server Clusters. (June 2004) >> >> >> >> A lot of old drivel from a biased source. It is doubtful it was >> >> accurate >> >> when written, but it is rather long int he tooth today. Surely you >> can >> >> do better. >> >> >> >> bill >> >> >> > >> > Ok, so tell us where the report is in error. >> >> Was done ages ago. I have better things to do than rehash the >> obvious. >> >> bill > > > Ok, Andrew. That about sums it up. > > Why bother with technical analysis when FUD is so much simpler and quicker = > to generate? > Because even if I wasted my time you would merely trot out the same tired argument again in 3-4 months. Luckily, the industry isn't listening to it any more. Of course, being a good HP drone, once they abandon VMS and only sell Windows I am sure you will be singing the company line about it and telling people how VMS was always a bad idea. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 4 Aug 2007 02:07:11 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <5hi5afF3k6tdtU2@mid.individual.net> In article , "Paul Raulerson" writes: > ----=_vm_0011_W545166379_7236_1186155265 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You use a= > sep=3D >>> arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen on= > the >> main network. >>> >>> Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" >> >>You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you >>honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the >>limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just >>one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, >>which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box >>and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) > > > Of course you get three 100mbs networks with three VLANS. What do you thi= > nk switches are for? Or why they have high bandwidth backplanes? Essentia= > lly the inside of the switch is a very high speed netowrk- even switches = > rated at 100mbs have backplanes that are much higher speed than that. Oth= > erwise what you have is essentially a hub. > > You only run into the situation you are talking about with trunked connec= > tions where you are passing multiple VLAN traffic, and if you have that c= > ondition on your server network, you have a bad configuration anyway. Or = > if you are using 20+ year old network infrastructure, like CDMA based thi= > n or thick Ethernet. I don't think there is any of that left around these= > days. > Sigh.... Go back and read what I said. You get the full bandwidth as long as your VLAN does not leave one single box. But if all the machines on that VLAN are located so close together that they can all be connected to a single box then the better solution is a single box to handle it rather than a VLAN. Does no one remember what KISS means? A separate box capable of handling gigabit speeds cost what today, $50? Why bother with the added complexity of establishing VLANS where there is a better and less complicated solution? Oh, I'm sorry, it must be technology for technolgy's sake. Hint: I may not run VMS clusters, but I do have a lot of server to server traffic. I keep it on a network all by itselfi (for both efficiency and security reasons). And I don't use VLANS even though all of my switches have that capability. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:34:21 -0500 From: "Paul Raulerson" Subject: RE: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <009301c7d63f$f6ecb460$e4c61d20$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 9:07 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall > > In article , > "Paul Raulerson" writes: > > ----=_vm_0011_W545166379_7236_1186155265 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >>> VLANS are separate from the main network and easy to set-up. You > use a= > > sep=3D > >>> arate NIC on the host side as well. What goes on a VLAN is not seen > on= > > the >> main network. > >>> > >>> Can you explain why you think you need a "separate network?" > >> > >>You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you > >>honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the > >>limit for the aggregate? Of course, if your VLAN is limited to just > >>one box.... Then it just takes up from the aggregate for that box, > >>which may, in fact, be higher. But then, why not just a separate box > >>and limit the complexity? (KISS) :-) > > > > > > Of course you get three 100mbs networks with three VLANS. What do you > thi= > > nk switches are for? Or why they have high bandwidth backplanes? > Essentia= > > lly the inside of the switch is a very high speed netowrk- even > switches = > > rated at 100mbs have backplanes that are much higher speed than that. > Oth= > > erwise what you have is essentially a hub. > > > > You only run into the situation you are talking about with trunked > connec= > > tions where you are passing multiple VLAN traffic, and if you have > that c= > > ondition on your server network, you have a bad configuration anyway. > Or = > > if you are using 20+ year old network infrastructure, like CDMA based > thi= > > n or thick Ethernet. I don't think there is any of that left around > these= > > days. > > > > Sigh.... > > Go back and read what I said. You get the full bandwidth as long as > your > VLAN does not leave one single box. But if all the machines on that > VLAN > are located so close together that they can all be connected to a > single > box then the better solution is a single box to handle it rather than a > VLAN. Does no one remember what KISS means? A separate box capable > of > handling gigabit speeds cost what today, $50? Why bother with the > added > complexity of establishing VLANS where there is a better and less > complicated > solution? Oh, I'm sorry, it must be technology for technolgy's sake. > > Hint: I may not run VMS clusters, but I do have a lot of server to > server traffic. I keep it on a network all by itselfi (for both > efficiency and security reasons). And I don't use VLANS even though > all of my switches have that capability. > > bill > > -- > Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three > wolves > bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton | > Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include Sigh yourself - go back and read what you wrote... > >>You have a 100MB network. You have 3 VLANS on that network. Do you > >>honestly believe that all 3 get 100MB rather than 100MB being the > >>limit for the aggregate? On a 100 mbs switch, you will *get* full bandwidth on each port until you exceed the backplane capacity. That's before you start talking about VLANs by the way. VLANS offer better traffic segregation and so better traffic management. As for on a single box - I run both a large LAN/WAN and a whole bunch of Linux and z/VM instances on "a single box." I run VLANs on a *virtual* switch in that box, to segregate traffic more than for bandwidth. Network bandwidth between the instances is limited by *memory bus* speed, and VLAN's can and do play a significant role in traffic management there. Same by the way is true on the IBM Bladecenter. Even the SAN network has the equivalent of VLANs - and for much the same purpose. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:55:12 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: VMS cluster behind a *NIX firewall Message-ID: <54252$46b3ea91$cef8887a$27982@TEKSAVVY.COM> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Go back and read what I said. You get the full bandwidth as long as your > VLAN does not leave one single box. Not true. At least on Cisco switches, you can combine multiple ports to form an inter-switch trunk. In any config, you need to study what the traffic will be like and plan accordingly. And there may be ways to create a trunk dedicated to a VLAN, garanteeing bandwidth won't be used by others. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.423 ************************