INFO-VAX Mon, 30 Jul 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 414 Contents: Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: ES40's won't boot! Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: July the 4th Re: Old DEC Monitor quandry Re: Old DEC Monitor quandry Problem spec refinement (was: Re: Multinet OOB (non-inline) character processing Serial Ports on Alpha Re: Serial Ports on Alpha Re: What does GEM mean? Re: What does GEM mean? Re: [OT] RIP DTL's Father ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:47:50 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols Message-ID: In article , Stephen Hoffman writes: > Paul Raulerson wrote: > > Boy, this is going to sound dumb, but didn't it just run out of space? There > > has to be a memory leak or some kind of failure to deallocate something > > there - it is using 1024 pages, which is its maximum. It looks to me like it > > started with 512? > > > > I am probably wrong with this assumption, but it is such an easy answer... > > I'll ignore the :-) here. > > There does appear to be a leak here. The leak likely involves > "constructed" DCL symbols -- symbols built at run-time to allow the > construction of a DCL data array, for instance -- or potentially with > logical names. It is conceivable that something else -- run-away > allocation of I/O channels -- might trigger this leak (particularly if > the run-time environment was already marginal), but symbols and logical > names are the most common trigger. VAXman pointed out it might be fragmentation. It's a relatively simple procedure which queries my router to see if my IP address has changed and if so update the DNS record. It uses LYNX in a pipe to grab the WAN address in a router, puts that in a job-table logical name, then assigns it to a symbol for further processing. It runs in an infinite loop. There is nothing fancy going on so I don't think it's a leak in the conventional sense, but possibly the fragmentation. There are just a few symbols and logical names defined. They aren't always de-assigned before re-assigning them, but I doubt this matters. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:00:56 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols Message-ID: In article , helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) writes: > > >In article , Stephen Hoffman > writes: > >> Paul Raulerson wrote: >> > Boy, this is going to sound dumb, but didn't it just run out of space? There >> > has to be a memory leak or some kind of failure to deallocate something >> > there - it is using 1024 pages, which is its maximum. It looks to me like it >> > started with 512? >> > >> > I am probably wrong with this assumption, but it is such an easy answer... >> >> I'll ignore the :-) here. >> >> There does appear to be a leak here. The leak likely involves >> "constructed" DCL symbols -- symbols built at run-time to allow the >> construction of a DCL data array, for instance -- or potentially with >> logical names. It is conceivable that something else -- run-away >> allocation of I/O channels -- might trigger this leak (particularly if >> the run-time environment was already marginal), but symbols and logical >> names are the most common trigger. > >VAXman pointed out it might be fragmentation. It's a relatively simple >procedure which queries my router to see if my IP address has changed >and if so update the DNS record. It uses LYNX in a pipe to grab the WAN >address in a router, puts that in a job-table logical name, then assigns >it to a symbol for further processing. It runs in an infinite loop. >There is nothing fancy going on so I don't think it's a leak in the >conventional sense, but possibly the fragmentation. There are just a >few symbols and logical names defined. They aren't always de-assigned >before re-assigning them, but I doubt this matters. SYMBOL would show it or I could probably put together bunch of SDA commands or even a stand-alone bit of code to show the symbol table memory fragment- ation for you. Let me know. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" http://tmesis.com/drat.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 06:21:21 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:52:07 -0700, Malcolm Dunnett wrote: > Tom Linden wrote: > >>> If the MMJ is in fact the console, then this will probably work, and >>> they'll never believe that wasn't the problem. Oh well, as long as it >>> works :-( >> The console is one of the DB9 ports. > > Sorry, that's not correct (It would be for a DS10/DS20 > but not for an ES40 ). On the ES40 it's the MMJ (trust > me, I've made the same mistake myself! ) Works for me. When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar >>> > > If you don't believe me see: > > http://h18002.www1.hp.com/alphaserver/download/es40og_revb.pdf > > see pages 20/21 for a description of the rear panel ports. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:26:19 +0100 From: Tom Wade Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: > Works for me. > > When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without > having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar It still isn't the real console. When SRM is running, it will issue a prompt and accept commands on all three serial interfaces. Once you start the boot sequence, only the real console will be active. The other two serial lines will be unusable until VMS is running. This is what the original poster saw. I believe (though I haven't tried it) that - VMS can only be halted by CTRL/P on the real console. - RMC only works on the real console. --------------------------------------------------------- Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" Ireland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:59:17 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: In article , Tom Wade wrote: > > Works for me. > > > > When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without > > having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar > > It still isn't the real console. When SRM is running, it will issue a > prompt and accept commands on all three serial interfaces. Once you > start the boot sequence, only the real console will be active. The > other two serial lines will be unusable until VMS is running. This is > what the original poster saw. > > I believe (though I haven't tried it) that > > - VMS can only be halted by CTRL/P on the real console. > - RMC only works on the real console. > IIRC, this mirrors what I have seen on my PWS 600au. With the console set to serial, I can see the chevron prompt and boot. However, if I am connected to the wrong port, it appears that the startup has stalled, when in fact the output messages are going to the real console line. If all is well with the startup, you can eventually log in on the second port or via the network, but if the startup barfs, you don't see what happened. -- Paul Sture Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks: http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:06:25 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: ES40's won't boot! Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:26:19 -0700, Tom Wade wrote: > >> Works for me. >> When I got my ES40s I plugged a cable into on of the DB9 ports (without >> having consulted the documentation) and it gave me the familiar > > It still isn't the real console. When SRM is running, it will issue a > prompt and accept commands on all three serial interfaces. Once you > start the boot sequence, only the real console will be active. The > other two serial lines will be unusable until VMS is running. This is > what the original poster saw. > > I believe (though I haven't tried it) that > > - VMS can only be halted by CTRL/P on the real console. > - RMC only works on the real console. > I will try it out when I get a chance > --------------------------------------------------------- > Tom Wade | EMail: tee dot wade at eurokom dot ie > EuroKom | Tel: +353 (1) 296-9696 > A2, Nutgrove Office Park | Fax: +353 (1) 296-9697 > Rathfarnham | Disclaimer: This is not a disclaimer > Dublin 14 | Tip: "Friends don't let friends do Unix !" > Ireland -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 09:15:19 +0200 From: Dirk Munk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: >> It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to >> destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! > > They acceptance of Israel's existance will be the RESULT of succesful > negotiations. The USA/Israel require them to accept Israel as a > pre-condition for negotiations. The state of Israel exists since the UN more or less established it in 1948. The existence of the state of Israel or acceptance of this fact is not negotiable. Almost no one in the middle east is interested in solving the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Why not? Simple, corrupt and autocratic leaders love to use this conflict to distract their own people from the problems in their own country. It is the oldest game in politics, find something abroad to distract the attention of the people from your own failures. And it works perfectly. Poverty in your own country? Look at the Americans and Europeans! They help the Israeli against the Palestinians! They hate Muslems! That is why we are poor! Who is paying the salaries of the Palestinian civil servants? Not the rich Arab countries or other "Muslem brother states". No, the US and the EU, those damned friends of Israel. Now Israel isn't doing very much to improve the situation either. If you are a Palestinian or a Israeli citizen of Arab origin, and you can't get water from the tap while Jewish people are splashing in their private swimming pool just a few hundred yards from your home, you will not get the idea that you get treated fairly by the Israeli government. And this is just a small example of the rather foolish way Israel is fueling the conflict. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 17:41:49 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: In article <1185733582.741490.41780@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, AEF writes: >On Jul 29, 1:22 pm, JF Mezei wrote: >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> > The whole "they'll like us when we stop supporting Israel" idea is a >> > steaming pile of shit. >> >> You wouldn't be able to grasp more evolved concepts such as "our blind >> support for Israel prevents establishement of a real peace in middle >> east". It is VERY different than what you stated above. > >More bologna from you. It is the Arab's refusal to accept even the >existence of Israel that prevents the establishment of real peace. Are you really that ignorant of the situation ? Yasser Arafat and the PLO accepted Israels right to exist over a decade ago !! This was formally confirmed when Arafat exchanged letters of PLO-Israel recognition with the Yitzhak Rabin in 1993. See http://www.earlham.edu/~pss/yasser_arafat.htm Given the lack of progress toward an independent Palestinian state since it isn't particularly surprising that the more extreme Hamas party won the January 2006 Palestinian parlimentary elections. >Israel withdrew UNILATERALLY and UNCONDITIONALLY from Gaza, and looked >what happened. Unfortunately too little too late and done on Israeli terms rather than as part of wider talks on a permanent solution embracing the West Bank and Jerusalem. Many Palestinians saw it, unfortunately, as Israel only reacting to force. See http://www.sptimes.com/2005/10/18/Worldandnation/Israel_leaves_Gaza_ha.shtml David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >The missiles are still coming. Civil war breaks out and >now the Hamas terrorist organization has taken over. I've read TWICE >now that the Palestinians have received more foreign aid per capita >than any other people on Earth and still they never miss an >opportunity to miss an opportunity (I'd credit that, but I don't know >who said it!). > >> For you, it is black or white. If we say that your blind biased support >> for Israel is hurting the peace process, your response is "if we >> widthdraw all support, it won't automatically create peace". > >It doesn't matter what the US does. Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., want to >destroy the state of Israel. THEY'VE PLAINLY AND LOUDLY SAID SO! >THEY'VE MAKE IT PLAIN BY THEIR ACTIONS, TOO. Hello? You think anything >the US does is going to change that attitude? > >> For peace to happen, there are many pieces of the puzzle that must fit >> into place. You work piece by piece. And one of those pieces is the way >> the USA gives Israel special protection which it does not give to other >> countries. It is an irritant that prevents real peace from happening. It >> doesn't require the USA to stop supporting Israel alltogether. > >This is more bologna. It is vague, naive, nonsense. Egypt gets $2 >billion a year from the US. Jordan also receives a significant amount >of US aid. Even the Palestinians get aid from the U.S. (except in >Gaza, and for good reason). > >> Same thing with Iraq. The debate in the USA is at baby levels. To have >> troups or to widthdraw troups alltogether. This is stupid. There is no >> debate on the mandate given to troups, there is no real debate on >> establising a real government that the people of Iraq will respect >> (instead of one which is friendly to the USA) etc. > >Iraq is a complete disaster. I will not defend Bush on this. But I'm >sick and tired of your despicable double standards. If the West >treated its women the way many Muslims do you'd be screaming bloody >murder. But NOOOOOOOOO. Anything they do is okay with you. Fatwas >against innocent authors? Not a problem. Killing the filmmaker in >Holland? Not a problem. 9/11? Not a problem. Civil War in Iraq? Not a >problem. Muslims blowing up each other's mosques? Not a problem. But >if a US soldier would leave a scuff mark on the floor of a mosque >you'd never hear the end of it. Iran and Iraq had a war killing >millions of Muslims. Yet again: Not a problem. Chechen rebels shoot >innocent school children running for their lives in cold blood? Not a >problem. Muslim terrorists in Indonesia? Not a problem. But if someone >catches a cold because of something the US does, you scream bloody >murder (okay, this sentence is an exaggeration, but you get the idea). > >It is your double standard that is sickening. > >And instead of addressing people's posts you cherry pick excerpts, >ignore stuff, and add even more nonsense to the pile. > >AEF > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:42:36 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: July the 4th Message-ID: <2f777$46ae230e$cef8887a$24569@TEKSAVVY.COM> Dirk Munk wrote: > The state of Israel exists since the UN more or less established it in > 1948. The existence of the state of Israel or acceptance of this fact > is not negotiable. If Israel agreed to the UN declared borders of 1967, it would go a long way towards easing the situation. Hamas and others are not exactly very law abiding governments. But they are in power legally. Israel has all the cards in its hands. It can build walls in their territory, it can send the mililtary and bomb civilians, it controls a large proportion of all financial transactions in palestine etc etc etc. And Israel has decided it even has the right to arrest and detain Palestinian government officials and elected representatives. Palestine has no control over Israel, and as a result, the relationship is very uneven with Israel being far more powerful. So when the time comes to "negotiate", all Hamas has to offer is the cessation of terrorist acts against Israel and recognition of Israel. And they have a very long list of demands. So they aren't about to squander any one of those 2 cards for a very small subset of what Palestine needs Israel to do/agree to. And this is why Israel's demand that Palestine stop the terrorist acts and recognise Israel as a precondition of negotiations is done to insure no negotiations happen. Those 2 conditions must be seen as the result of negotiations, not a precondition. And whenever Israel resists agreeing to some of the Palestinian demands, Hamas can increase the amount of terrorism to increase the "negotiating value" of that card until Israel's political situation gets so tired of the terrorism that they agree to some concession. This is definitely not a healthy situation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 06:08:51 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Old DEC Monitor quandry Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:43:00 -0700, David J Dachtera wrote: > I have two 19-inch VRTs (the Sony Trinitrons) that I don't plan to use > anymore. > However, my back has gone south and I will need help to move them - they > weigh > in at circa. 90 pounds. > > I'd really hate to scrap/recycle them, but I can't lift them anymore and > shipping would be prohibitively expensive. > > So, I need two good ideas: > > 1. How do I find takers for these who would be willing to come get them? > > 2. Has anyone found a 100% usable solution for substituting SVGA screens > for > these three-lead, sync-on-green monitors? (I've seen a lot of > suggestions and > do-it-yourself projects, but no hard evidence of an off-the-shelf, no > "fiddling" > solution.) 1. Buy a cable that has BNCs at one end and the SVGA at other, ca. $15 2. Buy three F-F BNC couplers. ca. $4 Bob's your uncle. > -- PL/I for OpenVMS www.kednos.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:14:09 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Old DEC Monitor quandry Message-ID: <44edb$46ae1c63$cef8887a$11748@TEKSAVVY.COM> John E. Malmberg wrote: > Now if LCD monitors will work with those, I do not know. I had no problems getting my Vaxstation 3100 with SPX card to connect to a NEC LCD monitor. I built myself a small adaptor from the DEC proprietary 15 pin connector to the VGA connector to connect the Red Greed and Blue leads and voila. You just need to ensure that the new monitor can do sync on green (which my NEC LCD 1980sx does). LCD monitors save a LOT of electricity compared to CRTs. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 21:22:38 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Problem spec refinement (was: Re: Multinet OOB (non-inline) character processing Message-ID: Hi, We can leave the red-herring io$m_nowait/ss$_suspend issue behind us; UCX doesn't care if the NOWAIT is dropped from the OOB Read, so I'm willing to concede that it was superfluous and may have only served to confuse Multinet. (It seems it is impossible to do an asynchronous and have the completion AST *only* fire when the OOB has arrived; if it's not there then ss$_badparam is returned) This is great, I can work with this!) The problem remains that after an interrupt has arrived and been read sucessfully by a $qio *or* io$readvblk with P4 as ucx$c_msg_oob, the next setting of the OOB Attention AST completes immediately (next AST) with ss$_badparam returned to the subsequent OOB read. (And the tight CPU loop ensues) Diagnosis: a) The successful read of the OOB character is not cleaning up and resetting the OOB-present flag to say that it's gone or b) The io$setmode!io$m_oobattn function is not seeing the flag after being reset. I vote for a) 'cos I've done a $dclast to do the reset, in case AST reentrancy issues were involved, and I've toggled between and io$_readvblk + ucx$c_msg_oob and I just don't have any levers left to pull :-( I've got two sheep stations and an oil-rig that says Multinet is not resetting the OOB flag after a succesful oob read; Let's see your cards! Any chance someone's gonna fix this? Nobody using OOB functionality with Multinet? No application development with Multinet/ Just use the spoon-fed tools out of the box? If it ain't SSH it just ain't? You really need UCX if you're serious about rolling your own? Cheers Richard Maher PS. I've also tried *not* resetting the OOB AST a second time to see if Multinet is a set and forget type of thing, but then it only fires the once (as documented). PPS. I'm the guy that found the buffer-overflowing stack-corrupter that is Multinet's io$_acpcontrol (at least for inetacp$c_trans inetacp_func$c_gethostbyaddr). PPPS. I still believe Multinet is trigger-happy with ss$_suspend leading it to conceal a broken network connection when ss$_linkdiscon would be the appropriate error status, but I'll have to change my OOBATTN testing to READATTN testing and that issue isn't really bothering me anyway. (If I'm wrong I will report back) "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:f8haps$o5a$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi, > > This question's easier than the first one so please help if you've done > this. I'd simply like to see a $QIO _BG: driver example example of a server > (or client) receiving an OOB character (*NOT* IN-LINED) from their partner > and displaying it. I have code that works perfectly well on UCX and TCPware > but on Multinet the following happens: - > > My works and the AST fires as expected. > Then I go to read the OOB character with a $qio > plus ucx$c_msg_oob as P4 - and the results I get vary from ss$_badparam to > ss$_suspended > So I say great, it was a false alarm and reset the OOBATTN AST which then > fires immediately and says "Nope there's definitely an OOB character here! > (It's just that we're not gonna let you read it, so loop around madly for a > while :-)" > > Has anyone else experienced this or alternatively got a working example > they'd be willing to share? > > Is the ss$_badparam really telling me there's a bad parameter and not just a > missing OOB? > Would a previous io$_sensemode have interfered with the sioatmark? > Is there some incantation or dead-chicken-waving such as > rather than using P4 flags? > (As a side issue and although I can't produce an example here, I am also > open to the idea that elsewhere Multinet will return a ss$_suspended to a > non-blocking read even if the pipe is broken, but that's one for another > day) > > I must be doing something wrong but the fact that it's rockin' and rollin' > on UCX is a bit off-putting. > > Thanks for any help. > > Cheers Richard Maher > > PS. Is it just me that thinks TCPware is a *whole* lot more UCX BG Driver > compatible than Multinet? > > > "David J Dachtera" wrote in message > news:46A22998.AA9FBC45@spam.comcast.net... > > Richard Maher wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Alpha VMS 7.3-1 and Multinet 5.0 and the $QIO interface to the BG: > driver. > > > > > > When I try to set the Socket Option ucx$c_full_duplex_close (on its own, > or > > > in the same call to create the socket) I get SS$_PROTOCOL returned. > > > > > > This option is obviously available in UCX, and the TCPWare docs say it's > > > been supported for the last ten years but somehow it's never been > included > > > with Multinet. Is that correct? Is there a version later than 5.0 that > > > supports it? > > > > > > I'm now having to code around the problem (by trying for FDC and if I > get > > > ss$_protocol then drop the option) but full_duplex_close is a pretty > damned > > > useful piece of functionality and I'm really curious as to the reasons > > > behind the lack of support or whether there are any plans to include it > in a > > > future version? > > > > I've cross-posted to the Multinet newsgroup. Perhaps someone from PSC will > > respond. > > > > -- > > David J Dachtera > > dba DJE Systems > > http://www.djesys.com/ > > > > Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ > > > > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ > > > > Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ > > > > Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: > > http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 12:54:48 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: Serial Ports on Alpha Message-ID: Does anyone know if ANYONE has created a driver for multiple USB-Comm ports (for modem use etc) (VMS 7.3-2) Customer has cost restrictions and can't pay big money for the Digi board PBXDA serial port cards. Also - PCI modems for Alpha Anyone Anyone??? DAVID -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner@islandco.com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 10:13:27 -0700 From: etmsreec@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: Serial Ports on Alpha Message-ID: <1185815607.873546.278730@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> On 30 Jul, 17:54, "David Turner, Island Computers" wrote: > Does anyone know if ANYONE has created a driver for multiple USB-Comm ports > (for modem use etc) (VMS 7.3-2) > > Customer has cost restrictions and can't pay big money for the Digi board > PBXDA serial port cards. > > Also - PCI modems for Alpha > Anyone Anyone??? > > DAVID > > -- > David B Turner > Island Computers US Corp > 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 > Savannah GA 31404 > > T: 877-6364332 x201 > Intl: 001 912 447 6622 > > E: dtur...@islandco.com > F: 912 201 0402 > W:http://www.islandco.com Probably depends on the model of Alpha. DS10s, no way, others maybe. Wouldn't touch a Digiboard even if I had the money. What about a couple of second user DECservers? DS300s must be cheaper than chips now and they'll do modem control and IP IIRC. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 2007 12:05:14 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <5h62fpF3i6ek9U2@mid.individual.net> In article <1i1yu8r.1p6jw83iv3jsjN%usenet@hoffart.de>, usenet@hoffart.de (Goetz Hoffart) writes: > Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: > >> And since then the germans has dropped the "double-s", so you'd better >> make a new revison anyway... :-) > > We didn't drop the "ß". The new rules for orthography just uses the "ß" > letter infrequently then before. > > Regards > Götz Well, I still use it, both in typed and handwritten documents. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jul 2007 12:07:19 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: What does GEM mean? Message-ID: <5h62jnF3i6ek9U3@mid.individual.net> In article <46AB2BA3.7090100@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" writes: > P. Sture wrote: >> In article , >> John Reagan wrote: >> >> >>>John Reagan wrote: >>> >>> >>>>German words like straße (5 chars long) and STRASSE (6 chars long). >>> >>>and to compound the problem, I can't count. :-) >> >> >> And why would a compiler author need to? :-) >> > > Indeed! That's what computers are for! If God had meant us to count > above twenty he would have given us more digits! ;-) > Look how high computers can count and they only have two digits. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:16:30 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: [OT] RIP DTL's Father Message-ID: Didier_Toulouse wrote: Sincères condoléances. Si il n'y a pas eu de soufrances, c'est la meilleure façon de partir. C'est bien mieux qu'une maladie dégénérative comme l'alzheimer. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.414 ************************