INFO-VAX Mon, 11 Jun 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 317 Contents: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... 8086 vs patches Re: 8086 vs patches Re: 8086 vs patches Re: 8086 vs patches DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) RE: InfoVAX gateway (was Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?) q RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: OT: Question to Bob Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time RE: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time RE: Story Time RE: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time RE: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: Story Time Re: VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10 Jun 2007 21:16:49 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: %TCPIP-E-ROUTEERROR from TCPIP SHOW ROUTES... Message-ID: <466c6a41$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <46689B42.1256A6E4@spam.comcast.net>, David J Dachtera writes: >Galen wrote: >> >> We're running TCP/IP V5.3 (no TCP/IP ecos) ... > >There's your problem right there - UCX *ALWAYS* has ECOs! TCPIP V5.6 still does not ;-) -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:06:32 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: Nobody accepted to provide me with a supply of chocolate in exchange for my stopping the use of the term "8086" to designate the industry standard architecture (since this is where it has its roots). I have a new proposal to make: I would be willing to stop using the 8086 monicker if Kerry Main were willing to stop using the "many many patches" argument. Would that be a fair deal that would benefit the c.o.v. community at large ? (My goal would be to get Mr Main to find other arguments to push VMS instead of using that one over and over again). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:58:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: On 06/10/07 17:06, JF Mezei wrote: > Nobody accepted to provide me with a supply of chocolate in exchange for > my stopping the use of the term "8086" to designate the industry > standard architecture (since this is where it has its roots). > > I have a new proposal to make: > > I would be willing to stop using the 8086 monicker if Kerry Main were > willing to stop using the "many many patches" argument. Sounds like a plan to me. Besides, the "many many patches" carcass is starting bloat and the neighbors are about to call the RSPCA on him. > Would that be a fair deal that would benefit the c.o.v. community at > large ? > > (My goal would be to get Mr Main to find other arguments to push VMS > instead of using that one over and over again). How about: OpenVMS, the mainframe-like OS with the FORTRAN66-like shell. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 05:47:48 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 01:58:53 UTC, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/10/07 17:06, JF Mezei wrote: > > Nobody accepted to provide me with a supply of chocolate in exchange for > > my stopping the use of the term "8086" to designate the industry > > standard architecture (since this is where it has its roots). > > > > I have a new proposal to make: > > > > I would be willing to stop using the 8086 monicker if Kerry Main were > > willing to stop using the "many many patches" argument. > > Sounds like a plan to me. Besides, the "many many patches" carcass > is starting bloat and the neighbors are about to call the RSPCA on him. > > > Would that be a fair deal that would benefit the c.o.v. community at > > large ? > > > > (My goal would be to get Mr Main to find other arguments to push VMS > > instead of using that one over and over again). > > How about: > OpenVMS, the mainframe-like OS with the FORTRAN66-like shell. > F77 Ron. DCL's got IF / ELSE / ENDIF now :) and character string constants , and HEX and ... :::))) -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:21:41 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: 8086 vs patches Message-ID: On 06/10/07 23:47, Dave Weatherall wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 01:58:53 UTC, Ron Johnson > wrote: [snip] >> How about: >> OpenVMS, the mainframe-like OS with the FORTRAN66-like shell. >> > > F77 Ron. DCL's got IF / ELSE / ENDIF now :) and character string > constants , and HEX and ... :::))) How *could* I have been so foolish? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 05:37:59 GMT From: "John E. Malmberg" Subject: DECTerm Bold fonts on Reflection X (Version 6) Message-ID: I am trying to get my Reflection-X (Older version -6) working. I have run into problems with bold fonts at 100dpi on DECTerms from OpenVMS 8.3 and its associated Decwindows. Problem # 1, bold font displayed by Reflections X is much larger than the non-bolded characters, at least 1/2 again larger. This is the "little" font from the Window Options screen If I specify "Condensed Fonts" and "Little Fonts", then the bold text is slightly smaller than the normal text, but usable. Problem # 2, With "Big Fonts" chosen, Reflection X can not find the requested bold font, -*-Terminal-Bold-R-Normal--18-140-100-100-C-0-*-* . I was able to work around the this problem by providing in the 100 dpi font.ali file for Reflections, the following alias: -Bitstream-Terminal-Bold-R-Normal--18-140-100-100-C-0-ISO8859-1 -b&h-lucida-bold-r-normal-sans-17-120-100-100-p-108-iso8859-1 It is not perfect, as the resulting font is slightly smaller than what is needed, but the next size up that I tried from the font.ali file was too big. Does anyone have any better solutions? I also note that font that the terminal is trying to use for bold does not seem to exist on my 8.3 system, and there does not appear to be a font alias for it. Also, on my Reflections 2 (Version 5.20), bold text is not showing up as bold, only as normal. The only work around I have found is to make bold text a different color. So if someone has a better hack, I would appreciate it. Thanks, -John wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:04:09 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: InfoVAX gateway (was Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet?) q Message-ID: -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 10, 2007 9:07 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: InfoVAX gateway (was Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is > so so quiet?) quiet?) quiet?) >=20 > On 06/10/07 02:46, Main, Kerry wrote: > [snip] >=20 > Kerry, I don't know if it's cpqcorp.net or the > Info-VAX<=3D=3D>comp.os.vms Gateway, but something in your setup = breaks > threading. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! Well, I do [snip ..] a number of longer sessions for clarity. In addition, I am using Outback 2007 client, but have just verified my setup is to use text with wrapping at line 75. I also use the Info-VAX G/W (I know, I know there are better ways..) Has anyone else using the Info-VAX G/W had these same issues or perhaps something is not 100% with this new version of Outlook? Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:18:11 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 10, 2007 9:25 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [snip ...] > > > > Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory > > and version information for multi-platform consolidation > > projects, there are very few shops (none that I have found to > > date) that are running the same version of Linux on their many > > different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. And these systems can > > number in the hundreds when you factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed > > environments in many different sites. >=20 > Just like not all sites have their VMS systems running the same > version of VMS, ACMS, Rdb, etc. >=20 See my note below - running different versions is not the issue until you have to test the Apps and patch them because of some security patch. With Windows / Linux the sheer volume of these monthly security patches is what makes running different versions so hard to manage. > > Different IT groups have different versions and different > > commitments to change and configuration management standards. > > > > Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but > > when you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each > > and every month, with different groups using different versions, > > it becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different > > environments current with the latest App and Kernel security > > patches. >=20 > You've beaten this dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp. >=20 So you agree then? Good. > > And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the > > important Apps with these security patches before they are > > released to Prod. > > > > For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have > > a really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being > > maintained by the same group. > > > > > >>> And > >> what > >>> do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns > >>> to apply these security patches? > >> They don't. > >> > > > > Since typically no production shop can shut down important > > services without getting approvals from the business, are you > > saying they don't apply these monthly security patches? > > > >>> Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with > >> understanding > >>> the real Operations challenges when compared to more > >>> enterprise > >> class > >>> platforms. > >> Let us understand that out in the real world companies are > >> moving to Linux. > >> > > > > Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take > > over the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize > > the real costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security > > patches released each and every month. >=20 > According to my company's development group, our app runs > significantly faster on Oracle/Linux than it does on Rdb/Alpha. >=20 Let me guess, this would be the App group that wants to move to Linux, right? mmmm... any developer can make one platform outperform another if they want to.=20 Also, many developers typically look at platforms from their perspective only. Seldom do they look at it from an Operations perspective, i.e. "how do we test and patch this app every month?" > The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you > are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86-64 > systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS can. >=20 You are to far down in the weeds. The HW has nothing (ok, very little) to do with it. It has to do with: - how well multiple applications will run together under a single OS, - culture of App developers in different groups agreeing to support their application on the same server and same OS as another number of groups, - getting every Dev group to agree on standards .. like no developer has direct access to production systems. That's always a lively discussion. - culture of ISV's on that platform ie. how willing are they to support their application running on the same server as a number of different ISV and locally developed applications. Why do you think most Wintel / Linux servers today are running less than 20% utilization in peak times? Why do you think VMware is so hot these days for both Windows and Linux environments? Its because the culture of Windows and Linux App or ISV environments are still stuck in the one App, one server culture. VMware allows them to achieve some HW savings but still keep the one app, one server culture, so technically and politically, it is an easy solution to implement. The next big step will be to consolidate OS instances as that is where the biggest savings are (FTE counts are tied to OS instances) and then that is when the fun will really begin in the Wintel / Linux environments. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:30:25 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 06/10/07 13:18, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: June 10, 2007 9:25 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >> > > [snip ...] > >>> Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory >>> and version information for multi-platform consolidation >>> projects, there are very few shops (none that I have found to >>> date) that are running the same version of Linux on their many >>> different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. And these systems can >>> number in the hundreds when you factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed >>> environments in many different sites. >> Just like not all sites have their VMS systems running the same >> version of VMS, ACMS, Rdb, etc. >> > > See my note below - running different versions is not the issue until > you have to test the Apps and patch them because of some security patch. > With Windows / Linux the sheer volume of these monthly security patches > is what makes running different versions so hard to manage. > >>> Different IT groups have different versions and different >>> commitments to change and configuration management standards. >>> >>> Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but >>> when you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each >>> and every month, with different groups using different versions, >>> it becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different >>> environments current with the latest App and Kernel security >>> patches. >> You've beaten this dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp. >> > > So you agree then? > > Good. It *is* good that you agree that you've bean that dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp. >>> And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the >>> important Apps with these security patches before they are >>> released to Prod. >>> >>> For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have >>> a really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being >>> maintained by the same group. >>> >>> >>>>> And >>>> what >>>>> do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns >>>>> to apply these security patches? >>>> They don't. >>>> >>> Since typically no production shop can shut down important >>> services without getting approvals from the business, are you >>> saying they don't apply these monthly security patches? >>> >>>>> Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with >>>> understanding >>>>> the real Operations challenges when compared to more >>>>> enterprise >>>> class >>>>> platforms. >>>> Let us understand that out in the real world companies are >>>> moving to Linux. >>>> >>> Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take >>> over the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize >>> the real costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security >>> patches released each and every month. >> According to my company's development group, our app runs >> significantly faster on Oracle/Linux than it does on Rdb/Alpha. >> > > Let me guess, this would be the App group that wants to move to Linux, > right? They did that testing *after* the word came down that we WILL migrate off of VMS. The alternatives were HP-UX and Linux. If Windows Server was ever a choice, I never heard of it. > mmmm... any developer can make one platform outperform another if they > want to. > > Also, many developers typically look at platforms from their perspective > only. Seldom do they look at it from an Operations perspective, i.e. > "how do we test and patch this app every month?" We cycle the application every Saturday night, to app patches and feature upgrades. Gives us DBAs time to do work on the databases that would otherwise block or be blocked by the on-line system. >> The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you >> are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86-64 >> systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS can. >> > > You are to far down in the weeds. The HW has nothing (ok, very little) > to do with it. It has to do with: > - how well multiple applications will run together under a single OS, > - culture of App developers in different groups agreeing to support > their application on the same server and same OS as another number of > groups, > - getting every Dev group to agree on standards .. like no developer has > direct access to production systems. That's always a lively discussion. > - culture of ISV's on that platform ie. how willing are they to support > their application running on the same server as a number of different > ISV and locally developed applications. You mean that each ISV wants to put their app on a dedicated box? > Why do you think most Wintel / Linux servers today are running less than > 20% utilization in peak times? > > Why do you think VMware is so hot these days for both Windows and Linux > environments? > > Its because the culture of Windows and Linux App or ISV environments are > still stuck in the one App, one server culture. VMware allows them to > achieve some HW savings but still keep the one app, one server culture, > so technically and politically, it is an easy solution to implement. Seems pretty foolish, if you ask me. > The next big step will be to consolidate OS instances as that is where > the biggest savings are (FTE counts are tied to OS instances) and then > that is when the fun will really begin in the Wintel / Linux > environments. I actually do agree with you on this issue. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:08:01 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 10, 2007 3:30 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 [snip ..] > >> The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you > >> are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86- > 64 > >> systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS > can. > >> > > > > You are to far down in the weeds. The HW has nothing (ok, very > little) > > to do with it. It has to do with: > > - how well multiple applications will run together under a single > OS, > > - culture of App developers in different groups agreeing to support > > their application on the same server and same OS as another number > of > > groups, > > - getting every Dev group to agree on standards .. like no developer > has > > direct access to production systems. That's always a lively > discussion. > > - culture of ISV's on that platform ie. how willing are they to > support > > their application running on the same server as a number of > different > > ISV and locally developed applications. >=20 > You mean that each ISV wants to put their app on a dedicated box? >=20 Welcome to the world of Windows and Linux - that great new frontier. > > Why do you think most Wintel / Linux servers today are running less > than > > 20% utilization in peak times? > > > > Why do you think VMware is so hot these days for both Windows and > Linux > > environments? > > > > Its because the culture of Windows and Linux App or ISV environments > are > > still stuck in the one App, one server culture. VMware allows them > to > > achieve some HW savings but still keep the one app, one server > culture, > > so technically and politically, it is an easy solution to implement. >=20 > Seems pretty foolish, if you ask me. >=20 Welcome to the world of Windows and Linux - that great new frontier. > > The next big step will be to consolidate OS instances as that is > where > > the biggest savings are (FTE counts are tied to OS instances) and > then > > that is when the fun will really begin in the Wintel / Linux > > environments. >=20 > I actually do agree with you on this issue. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! Similar to the monthly security issues, these one app, one server culture issues are the issues that senior managers only find out after the initial decisions are made.=20 And of course, the lower level techies or those who do understand are not saying anything about these during the decision making process because raising any doubts on the next big thing might be grounds for getting the dinosaur label attached to their neck. Here is something to consider. A new trend is developing (and being promoted by big SW companies like SAP) is Tier consolidation whereby OS instances are reduced by placing the App server(s) on the same server as the DB. Since most servers are only running less than 20% in peak time, this makes a lot of sense - you just need to ensure things like workload mgmt are in place to ensure one process does not do something silly and impact other processes. No big deal as this has been a practice on many other platforms for years (including OpenVMS). You not only eliminate OS instances, but also network latency issues, as well as provide a common OS environment for doing batch jobs. Now, ask your Dev team that is hot for Linux how they plan to address this growing trend in the future i.e. a common platform for the App server, db and batch environment. Want to bet they will say they need a separate server for each Application and DB?=20 Want to bet they have likely not even thought or included the pricing for converting and migrating their batch requirements (some environments run hundreds of jobs per day) or their many supporting Operational applications with associated custom code developed over many years that now must also change as part of the new platform? =20 :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:02:01 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <466c66cb$0$7607$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/10/07 13:18, Main, Kerry wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >>> Sent: June 10, 2007 9:25 AM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >>> >> >> [snip ...] >> >>>> Let me rephrase this .. In my experience in collecting inventory >>>> and version information for multi-platform consolidation >>>> projects, there are very few shops (none that I have found to >>>> date) that are running the same version of Linux on their many >>>> different Dev/Test/Prod Linux environments. And these systems can >>>> number in the hundreds when you factor in Dev/QA/Prod distributed >>>> environments in many different sites. >>> Just like not all sites have their VMS systems running the same >>> version of VMS, ACMS, Rdb, etc. >>> >> >> See my note below - running different versions is not the issue until >> you have to test the Apps and patch them because of some security >> patch. With Windows / Linux the sheer volume of these monthly >> security patches is what makes running different versions so hard to >> manage. >>>> Different IT groups have different versions and different >>>> commitments to change and configuration management standards. >>>> >>>> Now, having different version of OS is not so much an issue, but >>>> when you have 5-20 security patches for Linux being released each >>>> and every month, with different groups using different versions, >>>> it becomes a nightmare on how to keep each of these different >>>> environments current with the latest App and Kernel security >>>> patches. >>> You've beaten this dead horse into a maggot-infested pulp. >>> >> >> So you agree then? >> >> Good. > > It *is* good that you agree that you've bean that dead horse into a > maggot-infested pulp. > >>>> And that does not even bring in the issues of testing the >>>> important Apps with these security patches before they are >>>> released to Prod. >>>> >>>> For small-med shops, its not so much as big an issue if you have >>>> a really well run IT shop with limited numbers of systems being >>>> maintained by the same group. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> And >>>>> what >>>>>> do they do when they ask the business for monthly shutdowns >>>>>> to apply these security patches? >>>>> They don't. >>>>> >>>> Since typically no production shop can shut down important >>>> services without getting approvals from the business, are you >>>> saying they don't apply these monthly security patches? >>>> >>>>>> Linux (and Windows) have a place, but lets get real with >>>>>> understanding the real Operations challenges when compared to >>>>>> more enterprise >>>>> class >>>>>> platforms. >>>>> Let us understand that out in the real world companies are >>>>> moving to Linux. >>>>> >>>> Absolutely. But lets not pretend that Linux is going to take >>>> over the world and that serious IT shops will not soon realize >>>> the real costs of adopting a platform that has 5-20 security >>>> patches released each and every month. >>> According to my company's development group, our app runs >>> significantly faster on Oracle/Linux than it does on Rdb/Alpha. >>> >> >> Let me guess, this would be the App group that wants to move to >> Linux, right? > > They did that testing *after* the word came down that we WILL > migrate off of VMS. > > The alternatives were HP-UX and Linux. If Windows Server was ever a > choice, I never heard of it. > >> mmmm... any developer can make one platform outperform another if >> they want to. >> >> Also, many developers typically look at platforms from their >> perspective only. Seldom do they look at it from an Operations >> perspective, i.e. "how do we test and patch this app every month?" > > We cycle the application every Saturday night, to app patches and > feature upgrades. > Mmm. So you are not a multi-billion dollar SOX compliant 365*24*7 production shop that measures downtime downtime per hour at rates higher than your salary then? So what you do is fairly irrelevant, because you clearly either (1) do not have the requirements of which we are discussing, and/or (b) you have successfully hidden them from the PHBs. Its the business requirements that drive the problem. Sadly, there are not enough businessmen as IT bosses, just a lot of slick Willie's looking for a quick buck, stock options and an exit strategy before it all goes titsup, or someone with a brain catches em. Dweeb > Gives us DBAs time to do work on the databases that would otherwise > block or be blocked by the on-line system. > >>> The only reason you need 100s of distinct Linux boxes (unless you >>> are a co-lo service) is a residual Windows mentality. 4-core x86-64 >>> systems can handle a whole lot of simultaneous tasks, just as VMS >>> can. >> >> You are to far down in the weeds. The HW has nothing (ok, very >> little) to do with it. It has to do with: >> - how well multiple applications will run together under a single OS, >> - culture of App developers in different groups agreeing to support >> their application on the same server and same OS as another number of >> groups, >> - getting every Dev group to agree on standards .. like no developer >> has direct access to production systems. That's always a lively >> discussion. - culture of ISV's on that platform ie. how willing are >> they to support their application running on the same server as a >> number of different ISV and locally developed applications. > > You mean that each ISV wants to put their app on a dedicated box? > >> Why do you think most Wintel / Linux servers today are running less >> than 20% utilization in peak times? >> >> Why do you think VMware is so hot these days for both Windows and >> Linux environments? >> >> Its because the culture of Windows and Linux App or ISV environments >> are still stuck in the one App, one server culture. VMware allows >> them to achieve some HW savings but still keep the one app, one >> server culture, so technically and politically, it is an easy >> solution to implement. > > Seems pretty foolish, if you ask me. > >> The next big step will be to consolidate OS instances as that is >> where the biggest savings are (FTE counts are tied to OS instances) >> and then that is when the fun will really begin in the Wintel / Linux >> environments. > > I actually do agree with you on this issue. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:19:15 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <54830$466c6ad9$cef8887a$28094@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > Yes, but most are ignoring the monthly security patch issues. I can almost guarantee that m (please arrange your non-compliant microsoft software to break lines at 70 to 75 characters per line). Now, if I were working for a competitor of VMS, I would respond with: It is better to get patches regularly than getting total silence about whether VMS is impacted or not but its implementation of the same software, or having to wait for the next release of FVMS to get things fixed (and hoping the release notes actually mention that this problem has been fixed). One can easily argue that the lack of patches for VMS isn't because ot doesn't need anym but because the engineers do not have the time/budget/resources to issue the patches. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:22:43 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: June 10, 2007 5:19 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > Yes, but most are ignoring the monthly security patch issues. I can > almost guarantee that m >=20 >=20 > (please arrange your non-compliant microsoft software to break lines > at > 70 to 75 characters per line). >=20 >=20 > Now, if I were working for a competitor of VMS, I would respond with: >=20 > It is better to get patches regularly than getting total silence about > whether VMS is impacted or not but its implementation of the same > software, or having to wait for the next release of FVMS to get things > fixed (and hoping the release notes actually mention that this problem > has been fixed). >=20 Ah yes, the old competitive "if you can't match the competition, make something up and throw FUD at it .." And then someone on the side of OpenVMS would respond with whitepaper pointers that describe how OpenVMS security was designed into the architecture from the beginning and not an add-on later in the game like some other platforms. And then as a competitor, you would say ...=20 Bottom line is that OpenVMS Engineering has a proven history and assigns a very high priority of fixing any security issues it finds out about (whether it is internal or external generated). >=20 > One can easily argue that the lack of patches for VMS isn't because ot > doesn't need anym but because the engineers do not have the > time/budget/resources to issue the patches. One can make up unsubstantiated FUD all they want. Heck, one could say IBM was buying Sun next week to discourage a Cust from choosing Solaris, but that would only sink ones reputation in the eyes of that Customer as they know its not true. Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:02:32 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: > And then someone on the side of OpenVMS would respond with whitepaper > pointers that describe how OpenVMS security was designed into the > architecture from the beginning and not an add-on later in the game like > some other platforms. Yep. Did you guys ever issue ANY statement on whether the TCPIP Services BIND software for VAX (bind 8) had the vulnerabilities that were published a LONG time ago ? When more and more of the software on VMS comes from unixland, all those unixland bugs also make it to VMS. Consider that you guys dropped Pathworks in favour of Samba. So, when a Samba bug in found in the rest of the world, will VMS engineers remain silent on whether it is present on VMS or whether it had been written out during the port to VMS ? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:09:05 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <592bi.120038$NK5.27634@newsfe23.lga> On 06/10/07 16:02, Dr. Dweeb wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: [snip] >> We cycle the application every Saturday night, to app patches and >> feature upgrades. >> > > Mmm. So you are not a multi-billion dollar SOX compliant 365*24*7 > production shop that measures downtime downtime per hour at rates higher > than your salary then? So what you do is fairly irrelevant, because you > clearly either (1) do not have the requirements of which we are discussing, > and/or (b) you have successfully hidden them from the PHBs. Well, we used to be (kinda, since Enron was still flourishing when we took a wrong path), until management took the advice of a couple of (well-respected, because they are *very* smart and really know VMS and Rdb) ex-DEC Consultants members of the technical staff who love everything related to DEC, and so lead us down the Forte' garden path of doom. Before that, the app was written in C and functioned *very* well. Uptimes were regularly around 6 months. I proposed COBOL and DECforms, but no one listened. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:42:22 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On 06/10/07 15:08, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] [snip] > > Here is something to consider. A new trend is developing (and being > promoted by big SW companies like SAP) is Tier consolidation whereby OS > instances are reduced by placing the App server(s) on the same server as > the DB. Since most servers are only running less than 20% in peak time, > this makes a lot of sense - you just need to ensure things like workload > mgmt are in place to ensure one process does not do something silly and > impact other processes. No big deal as this has been a practice on many > other platforms for years (including OpenVMS). And how things used to on Unix. Remember, it *is* a timesharing OS, just like VMS. > You not only eliminate OS instances, but also network latency issues, as > well as provide a common OS environment for doing batch jobs. True. Depending on how beefy your server is, and how parsimonious the CFO is. Since it's being rewritten in Oracle and hosted on a SAN, moving the batch cycle to another machine (a blade, maybe) shouldn't be "that much" of a chore if the database+batch machine gets burdened. Which is what has happened on 2 of our VMS clusters. But one of them is /finally/ migrating to a GS1280. Yay!!! I guess the string of crashes attributed to ancient hardware pried open the purse strings. I guess the falling price of used Alpha kit made it palatable. > Now, ask your Dev team that is hot for Linux how they plan to address > this growing trend in the future i.e. a common platform for the App > server, db and batch environment. See, that's the beauty of client-server. If it's written in a network-centric manner, the apps don't care where they are. And since x86 Gbit NICs cost probably the same as 100Mb NICs that are VMS-qualified, and 4Gbit Linux-qualified HBAs are also readily available, making the database server a bandwidth demon is pretty darned simple. And the forever-growing power of x86-64 h/w means that if "they" do decide to keep it host-based, regular guts swaps are pretty darned cheap. > Want to bet they will say they need a separate server for each > Application and DB? > > Want to bet they have likely not even thought or included the pricing > for converting and migrating their batch requirements (some environments > run hundreds of jobs per day) If *management* did not factor that into the contract with our clients (who wanted off of VMS), then shame on them, not the developers. > or their many supporting Operational > applications with associated custom code developed over many years that You must think us flaming idiots. > now must also change as part of the new platform? They may be "just" developers, but they're not stupid. A dozen or so of the lead developers have been with the project 8 years or more (in that time, 2 of them have had the time to segue from "Indian consultants wanting to return in 5 years" to married- with-children naturalized citizens). -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:47:30 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: June 10, 2007 8:03 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > And then someone on the side of OpenVMS would respond with > whitepaper > > pointers that describe how OpenVMS security was designed into the > > architecture from the beginning and not an add-on later in the game > like > > some other platforms. >=20 > Yep. Did you guys ever issue ANY statement on whether the TCPIP > Services > BIND software for VAX (bind 8) had the vulnerabilities that were > published a LONG time ago ? >=20 No idea. I assume if it was an issue, it was fixed. If it was not an issue there was no need to fix anything. > When more and more of the software on VMS comes from unixland, all > those > unixland bugs also make it to VMS. >=20 Yes, but do not assume that just because a bug in one platform implementation of an app automatically means it will be an issue with all platform implementations of the application. > Consider that you guys dropped Pathworks in favour of Samba. So, when > a > Samba bug in found in the rest of the world, will VMS engineers remain > silent on whether it is present on VMS or whether it had been written > out during the port to VMS ? Same thing as for Apache on OpenVMS .. if there is an issue, I assume it will be fixed. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:14:05 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: Main, Kerry wrote: > No idea. I assume if it was an issue, it was fixed. If it was not an > issue there was no need to fix anything. Customers don't pay support money to "assume" it is an issue or not. They pay real money to be informed that a very public bug applies or does not apply to the VMS version, and that if it does apply, a patch is available quickly. If the VMS engineers tested the Bind stuff and found it did not applu, they should have made a statement to that effect. And this would have beena good statement to make since it would have been good marketing for VMS, showing how the unix software, when ported to VMS is of better quality. By remaining silent, customers have to wonder if engineers tested and found no issue, whethere engineers are asleep at the switch, or whether VMS management doesn't allow vms engineers to test and fix such problems due to priorities etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:50:16 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <466C47E8.20309@comcast.net> AEF wrote: > On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > >>On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> >>>In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: >> >>>>On Jun 8, 2:54 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>JF Mezei wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>resolve some conundrum asked by kirk> >>>>> > [...] >> >>But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! > > > C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What > experience does he have to draw upon? > > AEF > > But why did God create a creature with free will and THEN get pissed because it would not do as it was told? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:18:41 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: On 06/10/07 13:50, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: [snip] >> > But why did God create a creature with free will and THEN get pissed > because it would not do as it was told? Does your son face the consequences when he disobeys you? -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:42:03 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <466C702B.1040008@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/10/07 13:50, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > [snip] > >>> >> But why did God create a creature with free will and THEN get pissed >> because it would not do as it was told? > > > Does your son face the consequences when he disobeys you? > I am not God! I don't have a son, or any children. I think I'd have made a lousy father which is why not! You're not really addressing my point! God created a creature with free will; a creature he could and should have known was capable of disobedience. Then God got pissed because Adam disobeyed orders. Adam's descendants are still disobeying orders which, again is easily predictable. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:54:41 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: In article <1181477976.454093.231900@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >On Jun 10, 6:48 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> >> The end result in both cases is the same - suffering for Mankind. However >> whereas in Greek Mythology Zeus' motivation is explicitly to punish Mankind >> it is unclear why God sets up Adam and Eve in Genesis. > >It is very clear ... God setup created Adam in his image, and >like the angels in heaven were tempted and had to prove >themselves, Adam and Eve had to do the same A test is probably a reasonable supposition but as far as I can see from Genesis a supposition is all it is. Now if it is a test what is God testing ? Is it that Adam and Eve would obey him and not eat from a particular tree if ordered not to ? Is it that they cannot be tempted to eat from said tree ? If the latter then the serpent is carrying out God's wishes in providing temptation and hence it seems strange for God to punish the serpent. If the former then the serpent in providing temptation is interfering and invalidating the test. In any case why use that particular tree ? Ordering them not to eat from a tree which God created which would ,say, turn their skin green would be as good a test ? Why plant the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden and use that for the test - it seems foolhardy. Unless of course the point of the test was for Adam and Eve to disobey God and gain that Knowledge - a rite of passage to maturity. But then if that was the case then God's subsequent punishments seem excessive. > ... God even >told them in His warning that if you eat from that tree you will >die ... it couldn't be much clear or simpler than that, Actually the warning is Genesis 2:17 " But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. " Which is a bit strange since Adam didn't die on that day or for quite a few days after Genesis 5:5 " And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. " Of course if he and Eve had died immediately after eating the forbidden fruit then there would, according to the Bible, be no Human race since at that time they had no children. Alternatively if Adam and Eve had resisted temptation would they still be there in the Garden immortal and innocent on their own tending the Garden ? Would both Heaven and Hell be empty of souls ? David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >but they >instead chose to believe the lies of the prince of lies ... the >temptation was the same on that the devil uses on everyone, >pride of life ... that you will be like God, which is want he >wanted and still wants ... everyone has to choose their master, >and knowing what I know, I would choose a loving God every >time over hell and the lake of fire ... God has a set of rules that >must be followed or evil results ... and look all around you today >at the results of breaking Gods rules ... no way do I call this >heaven! If you love God, your creator, you will do what He asks, >but if you insist on being God, then you will be put outside His >universe in the lake of fire ... God does not want a bunch of mind >numbed robots serving Him, which is why even though He knows >all He allows us to make our own choice on this matter ... where >you end up will be by your own choice ... God has proved His love >for you by sending His only Son to die for your sins ... and when >His Son soon returns, He promises a world of no tears, no sickness >and no sorrow ... we have all of these now because of Adam and >Eves and our own continued revolt againset God by wanting to >be one, and not letting Him be ... your current predicament is the >result of sin ... the only question is, who will be your God ... > >why would you want to not serve your Creator and go againset >Him? You can read about the life of His Son from many >witnesses who tell of Jesus who did nothing but love and heal >people, but they instead nailed Him to a cross! He saind those >who have seen Him have seen the Father ... so God is love ... > >the prince of lies on the other hand is trying to pull you apart >from your loving Creator ... he is not called the destroyer for >nothing ... he is out to kill and destroy you and all of man >because he does not want you to spend eternity with God >in heaven ... this is who Adam and Eve listened to, and God >let them be their own gods, and you now are seeing the >results of sin ... sin destroys ... > >I think the first choice is obvious, but many will choose the >latter unfortunately but will have nobody to blame but >themselves ... God is allowing YOU to choose ... choose >life so you do not end of in the group of those who >are wailing and knashing teeth, because then it will be too >late! > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:34:47 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181529287.573874.163220@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 2:50 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > AEF wrote: > > On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > >>On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > >>>In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > >>>>On Jun 8, 2:54 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > >>>>wrote: > > >>>>>JF Mezei wrote: > > >>>>>> >>>>>>resolve some conundrum asked by kirk> > > > [...] > > > >>But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! > > > C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What > > experience does he have to draw upon? > > > AEF > > But why did God create a creature with free will and THEN get pissed > because it would not do as it was told? Wrong question. I think the whole story is just an attempt to explain why things are they way they are. Consider: You're trying to start a religion. You say God created the world and humankind. OK. Your congregation asks, "So why did he create it so that we had to work so hard? Why are pregnancies so painful?" Etc. So you come up with this story as an explanation for it all. Just like Pandora's Box that another poster mentioned. Your question kind of gets to the question of what free will is. "The free will of what?" I say. The brain? The mind? The conscious part of the brain/mind? You? Just what is "you"? Free of what? The laws of physics? Impossible!!! Hey, how the hell should I know? (rhetorical) Anyway... Emily Lotella's (who's a little hard of hearing) take: Jane Curtain: And now, with today's commentary on whether people have free will is Weekend Update correspondent Emily Lotella. Emily: Thank you Jane. What's all this fuss I hear about people not having Free Willy? Why it's just a movie. It's a movie about a whale. You can rent it from Blockbuster, or buy the DVD at Wall Mart. Or you might even be able to download it from the Internet ... blah blah blah ... Jane: Emily, Emily! Stop! ... The topic is FREE WILL, not Free Willy, FREE WILL. Emily: Oh. ... Well that's very different. (turns to the camera, folds her hands, and smiles) ... Never mind! Chevy Chase: And now, to translate our top stories for the hard of hearing is Weekend Update's Garret Morris. Chevy: Tonight's top story Garret: (cups hand in front of his mouth and yells...) TONIGHT'S TOP STORY ... (My apologies for those who can't handle the upper case letters.) AEF "Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once." -- Woody Allen AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:38:22 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181529502.226352.213320@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 12:56 pm, AEF wrote: > On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > > > > On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > > In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > > > >On Jun 8, 2:54 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" > > > >wrote: > > > >> JF Mezei wrote: [...] > > The Bible is a morality play. If you start picking apart the logic, > > you'll miss the story. If you just read the story and try to imagine > > the way the world was thousands of years ago when it was first told, > > you find that the logic isn't that important. Whether it's "the divine > > word of God" or simple wisdom and guidance passed from one generation > > to the next in a carrot & stick format doesn't change what it says. > > Well, maybe parts of it. A lot of it looks like it's meant to be a > historical account in addition to the explaining parts. > > Where's the morality play in the endless description of the > tabernacle? And where's the morality play in the endless passages about all the rituals? [...] AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:40:29 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181529629.641158.65120@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 1:10 pm, Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote: > > C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What > > experience does he have to draw upon? > > > AEF > > I guess he could have asked his father, as anyone else does... Who's his father? God? Ask someone if you can hide from him? "Is it possible to hide from you?" AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:29:37 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: On 06/10/07 16:54, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: [snip] > > Of course if he and Eve had died immediately after eating the forbidden fruit > then there would, according to the Bible, be no Human race since at that time > they had no children. Spiritual death (separation from YHWH), eventually leading to physical death. According to (Protestant?) Christian theology, God wants to reconnect with Man. Since Man split from Him out of free will, He wants us to reconnect from our free will. For many years, my interpretation has been that God knows that we weren't mature enough, and so had to guide us from the "heavy handed approach" (Old Testament full of blood sacrifice and violence) to the "associated by free will" approach (Jesus the final sacrifice). My basis for this theory is 1 Samuel 8. Basically, the Israelites were a tribally-organized theocracy which occasionally had "judges" to remind them to return to God's path. But they wanted to keep up with the Joneses: "make us a king to judge us like all the (other) nations)". > Alternatively if Adam and Eve had resisted temptation would they still be > there in the Garden immortal and innocent on their own tending the Garden ? > Would both Heaven and Hell be empty of souls ? > > > David Webb > Security team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University > > > >> but they >> instead chose to believe the lies of the prince of lies ... the >> temptation was the same on that the devil uses on everyone, >> pride of life ... that you will be like God, which is want he >> wanted and still wants ... everyone has to choose their master, >> and knowing what I know, I would choose a loving God every >> time over hell and the lake of fire ... God has a set of rules that >> must be followed or evil results ... and look all around you today >> at the results of breaking Gods rules ... no way do I call this >> heaven! If you love God, your creator, you will do what He asks, >> but if you insist on being God, then you will be put outside His >> universe in the lake of fire ... God does not want a bunch of mind >> numbed robots serving Him, which is why even though He knows >> all He allows us to make our own choice on this matter ... where >> you end up will be by your own choice ... God has proved His love >> for you by sending His only Son to die for your sins ... and when >> His Son soon returns, He promises a world of no tears, no sickness >> and no sorrow ... we have all of these now because of Adam and >> Eves and our own continued revolt againset God by wanting to >> be one, and not letting Him be ... your current predicament is the >> result of sin ... the only question is, who will be your God ... >> >> why would you want to not serve your Creator and go againset >> Him? You can read about the life of His Son from many >> witnesses who tell of Jesus who did nothing but love and heal >> people, but they instead nailed Him to a cross! He saind those >> who have seen Him have seen the Father ... so God is love ... >> >> the prince of lies on the other hand is trying to pull you apart >>from your loving Creator ... he is not called the destroyer for >> nothing ... he is out to kill and destroy you and all of man >> because he does not want you to spend eternity with God >> in heaven ... this is who Adam and Eve listened to, and God >> let them be their own gods, and you now are seeing the >> results of sin ... sin destroys ... >> >> I think the first choice is obvious, but many will choose the >> latter unfortunately but will have nobody to blame but >> themselves ... God is allowing YOU to choose ... choose >> life so you do not end of in the group of those who >> are wailing and knashing teeth, because then it will be too >> late! >> >> >> >> -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:37:44 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: On 06/10/07 16:42, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: >> On 06/10/07 13:50, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> [snip] >> >>>> >>> But why did God create a creature with free will and THEN get pissed >>> because it would not do as it was told? >> >> >> Does your son face the consequences when he disobeys you? >> > > I am not God! I don't have a son, or any children. I think I'd have > made a lousy father which is why not! Unless you are also ugly and (particularly) stupid, that's a poor reason to fulfill your biological mission. > You're not really addressing my point! God created a creature with free > will; a creature he could and should have known was capable of > disobedience. What's the point of having free will, if there's no "opportunity" to exercise your free will. > Then God got pissed I didn't read it as "got pissed". After all, he made animal skin clothing for them. > because Adam disobeyed orders. Adam's > descendants are still disobeying orders which, again is easily predictable. Well, when you get down to brass tacks, there is no God, and Genesis never happened, so this is all really part 2 of "how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?". -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:03:06 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <_P3bi.117615$NU1.84256@newsfe13.lga> On 06/10/07 21:52, Steven M. Schweda wrote: > From: AEF > > [...] > > It's a mystery to me why some people find [the] B[o]ob's postings on > religion in this forum inappropriate, while apparently considering their > own (smugly superior) postings on religion in this forum to be valuable > contributions to the collective wisdom. Because we all know that we are smarter and wiser and more eloquent than everyone else. > If anyone figures out why this is, please don't explain it here, as > I'd prefer to wallow in bafflement. Deep in your heart, you *knew* that that wish was even less realistic than the Cubs winning the WS. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:28:53 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: OT: Question to Bob Message-ID: <1181539733.516622.75750@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 11:56 am, AEF wrote: > On Jun 9, 12:54 pm, Doug Phillips wrote: > > On Jun 9, 10:18 am, davi...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote: > > > In article <1181338337.766448.28...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > [...] > > > But I think the question being asked is why eating the fruit of the tree of > > > knowledge of good and evil should result in Adam and Eve feeling ashamed of > > > their nakedness ? > > > It was that damned genetically engineered fruit, I'll bet! Probably > > screwed up our genes! (So, if God created everything, then that means > > everything is genetically engineered.) > > > Why did God put a tree like that in the garden in the first place? If > > God is all knowing and all powerful, didn't he know they'd eat the > > fruit? And, could Adam really hide from God? So on and so on... Books > > have been written. > > Looks like an attempt to explain the world as we see it to me. > I presume you're talking about more than just the Adam and Eve story. Aren't all of such stories attempts to explain the mysteries of nature? Every culture has explanations for our existence; whether god(s) and demons who manipulate man and nature or spirits living in volcanoes or trees or rocks; disasters and trials are sent to cleanse or warn us to change our errant ways; spirit forces watch and guide us. The stories may be different, but they have a common theme. > > The Bible is a morality play. If you start picking apart the logic, > > you'll miss the story. If you just read the story and try to imagine > > the way the world was thousands of years ago when it was first told, > > you find that the logic isn't that important. Whether it's "the divine > > word of God" or simple wisdom and guidance passed from one generation > > to the next in a carrot & stick format doesn't change what it says. > > Well, maybe parts of it. A lot of it looks like it's meant to be a > historical account in addition to the explaining parts. > > Where's the morality play in the endless description of the > tabernacle? > Well, it's not *just* a morality play, of course. Morality is the central theme. The history of the world as they knew it, accumulated wisdom, survival, bravery, disasters, social structures and ancestry (the "begets") were handed from generation to generation. There are many elaborations in the work that had significant meaning to the people of that time. We've lost the context of the period so they don't mean much to us now. Some are for emphasis; the description of the Ark of the Covenant, for example, showing how respect should be given to the holy writings. Many such elaborations seem to have been added by the later writers --- they were scholars, after all;-) > > [...] > > > > >Some > >other religions have similar stories, and some people do run around > >fairly naked. The need to protect ones sensitive areas from harm, > >though, is just a common sense thing. > > True but it is interesting that in Genesis Adam and Eve are afraid because > > > of their nakedness not because they have disobeyed God > > > > Genesis 3:10 (Adam talking to God) > > > > " > > > And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was > > > naked; and I hid myself. > > > " > > Again, the explanation hypothesis explains this. Remember, they ate > from the Tree of Knowledge, not the Tree of Moral Tales or the Tree of > Moral Truths or what have you. > Bob's links do explain the fundamentalist's view of the story. > > There have been many discussions about the interpretation. afraid/ > > apprehensive/fearful > > naked/exposed/revealed > > and on and on. > > > A minor shift in just a few words that have a less than precise > > meaning anyway can dramatically change the story. Even someone raised > > speaking two languages often can't precisely translate one to the > > other. > > It is evident that translations can't be trusted 100%. There are > sometimes big differences among them. > Not only the translations, but the original "telling" of the story. So many fundamentalists seem to think that God actually "dictated" or even wrote it with His own hand. The old stories were first passed along orally. The story tellers memorized the stories and passed them along adding new verses to include current events. As population expanded, groups split and spread out, and the stories diverged and grew. As tribes interacted some of the story variations merged. At some point (maybe starting around 1400/1500 BCE or so; the date is debatable) they were written down and those documents became the basis for later text. Many of the Hebrew writings were condensed and edited into what the scholars of the time believed were the "true" teachings of God. The Pentateuch, the first five books of scripture, live on today in the Talmud/Torah and the Old Testament. The Talmud was/is both civil and religious law. The Jewish/Christian/Muslim religions all include those early works. Like I said, many books have been written on the subject; no need to rehash it all here. (I know lots of COV'ers wish it wasn't being hashed in the first place. We've had that discussion before, too.) > > [...] > > > But Adam really thought he could hide from God? What a dork! > > C'mon. Don't be so harsh on the poor guy. He was the first man! What > experience does he have to draw upon? > You're right. Sorry, Adam. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:17:38 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: porting ignorance (was Re: Story Time) Message-ID: <7e439$466c95da$cef88391$23648@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> IanMiller wrote: > as that story mentions VMS I64 V8.1 I suspect is it not from this > year. I would be interested to know how they are getting on. That story is several years old. What would be just as interesting is the number of *new* institutions doing the same thing, but we all know what the answer to that is. -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:19:21 -0700 From: IanMiller Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <1181513961.769876.184660@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 6:03 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > Has CIFS officialy been released as a supported product? ...or is it still in > development/field-test? > It is not released as a supported product. There have been several evaluation releases. The first public field test is due to start soon, ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:57:07 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68F21.FCBB40BB@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181493671.525506.295170@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Doug Phillips writes: > > >On Jun 10, 11:19 am, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <1181484020.617583.7...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: >> >> >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we >> >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. >> >> In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same services >> they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is on >> an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any "modern/sup- >> ported" version of OpenVMS. >> > >I suspect it's more of a license cost issue. The newest PW/AS runs on >the newest VMS (Alpha): > >>From the kit: > > Release Date: 03-OCT-2006 > Kit Name: ADVANCSERV-V0703-B.ZIP > Kit Applies To: OpenVMS ALPHA V7.3-2, V8.2 and V8.3 Where can I get this? Since the death of ConDist, I'm told to look on the DSPP site. Nothing there I can find. Looked again this am. >I agree with you about Samba. I have people who would move to IA >tomorrow if the middleware & applications were there. As it is, >they'll probably end up being another VMS loss story. I can sum up this entire strategy.. in fact, current issues... in two words: _H_opelessly _P_athetic. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:57:26 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] > Sent: June 10, 2007 12:20 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks >=20 > In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, > IanMiller writes: > > > > > >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we > >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. >=20 > In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same > services > they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is > on > an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any > "modern/sup- > ported" version of OpenVMS. >=20 > - mmm.. You mean for IA64 systems I guess? Advanced Server certainly is supported on OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha. I run AS V7.3B with OVMS V8.3 on some of my home Alpha servers (DS10L and DEC 3000) http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/advancedserver.html=20 http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/asovmsnew.html Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:00:06 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68F22.67B92CAF@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <1181513961.769876.184660@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller writes: > > >On Jun 10, 6:03 pm, David J Dachtera >wrote: > >> Has CIFS officialy been released as a supported product? ...or is it still in >> development/field-test? >> > >It is not released as a supported product. There have been several >evaluation releases. The first public field test is due to start soon, Ian, where do you get this info? I can't even find reference *TO* the SAMBA distribution on Hopelessly Pathetic's site let alone find any actual mention of futures for this kludge. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 00:22:31 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <00A68F25.89968AFA@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] >> Sent: June 10, 2007 12:20 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks >>=20 >> In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, >> IanMiller writes: >> > >> > >> >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we >> >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. >>=20 >> In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same >> services >> they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is >> on >> an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any >> "modern/sup- >> ported" version of OpenVMS. >>=20 >> - > >mmm.. You mean for IA64 systems I guess? > >Advanced Server certainly is supported on OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha. I run AS >V7.3B with OVMS V8.3 on some of my home Alpha servers (DS10L and DEC >3000) > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/advancedserver.html=20 >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/asovmsnew.html Thanks Kerry, but none of those links take me to product. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:48:11 -0500 From: Bill Hall Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: <6e8be$466cb7ec$4069ed85$20846@msgid.meganewsservers.com> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] >>> Sent: June 10, 2007 12:20 PM >>> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >>> Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks >>> =20 >>> In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, >>> IanMiller writes: >>>> >>>> I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but we >>>> will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. >>> =20 >>> In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same >>> services >>> they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site is >>> on >>> an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any >>> "modern/sup- >>> ported" version of OpenVMS. >>> =20 >>> - >> mmm.. You mean for IA64 systems I guess? >> >> Advanced Server certainly is supported on OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha. I run AS >> V7.3B with OVMS V8.3 on some of my home Alpha servers (DS10L and DEC >> 3000) >> >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/advancedserver.html=20 >> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/asovmsnew.html > > Thanks Kerry, but none of those links take me to product. > Brian, The following url points to the zip file containing CPQ-AXPVMS-ADVANCEDSERVER-V0703-B-1.PCSI$COMPRESSED. ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/layered_products/alpha/ADVANCSERV-V0703-B.ZIP Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:02:00 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] > Sent: June 10, 2007 8:23 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: RE: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks >=20 > In article > t>, "Main, Kerry" writes: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG] > >> Sent: June 10, 2007 12:20 PM > >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >> Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks > >>=3D20 > >> In article <1181484020.617583.7740@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, > >> IanMiller writes: > >> > > >> > > >> >I'm told there is to be some stuff to aid pathworks migration but > we > >> >will have to wait until the FT kit appears to see. > >>=3D20 > >> In the interim, they are stringing customers, who need the same > >> services > >> they had in Pathworks/Advanced Server, along. This particular site > is > >> on > >> an old rev of OpenVMS because they can't get PW/AS for any > >> "modern/sup- > >> ported" version of OpenVMS. > >>=3D20 > >> - > > > >mmm.. You mean for IA64 systems I guess? > > > >Advanced Server certainly is supported on OpenVMS V8.3 Alpha. I run > AS > >V7.3B with OVMS V8.3 on some of my home Alpha servers (DS10L and DEC > >3000) > > > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/advancedserver.html=3D20 > >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/pathworks/asovmsnew.html >=20 > Thanks Kerry, but none of those links take me to product. >=20 > -- The AS kits for Alpha are on the quarterly LP distribution CDroms. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jun 2007 05:47:46 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: SAMBA not ready to be a replacement for PathWorks Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:01:59 UTC, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > I have been using SAMBA on my systems for some time. It's a kludge. > > Yesterday, I assisted a site in updated their V7.2-2 system to V8.3. > Mostly as a test to see what was needed to get them up in production > on V8.3. Since there is no more PathWorks or Advanced Server, they > were interested in trying SAMBA. At home, I have my Powerbook and I > can share files with VMS (some files ;) ). When I configured SAMBA > to serve one user directory at this site, this user tried to open a > text file using whatever one would use on a Weendoze box to open up > a text file (NoteEdit?). The text previewed as if it was typed with- > out ever hitting a carriage return. I then connected to this exact > same share with my Powerbook and the data was just fine. Go figya! > This user said that with PathWorks, they can open the same types of > files (most of these are reports written by their business apps) and > they appear as if carriage returns were there. As others have told you its CR/LF versus LF only. If you use Wordpad to open the file on Microschrott it should be readable normally. Or perhaps not... Wordpad does cope with LF terminated ascii files. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:41:43 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <466C1068.8060303@comcast.net>, "Richard B. Gilbert" wrote: > Can anyone explain why an HP Laserjet with a JetDirect > card, connected ONLY via the network, is NOT a "network printer"?? > Believe me, it's not, though the reason why is not clear to me. Because it's not connected to a Windows box acting as a print server (with suitably expensive license)? -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:21:18 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <5dVai.109954$NU1.24185@newsfe13.lga>, Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/10/07 10:11, Robert Deininger wrote: > > In article , Ron Johnson > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- > >> drool front-end. > > > > Can I borrow "point-n-drool"? :-) > > It's not mine to give. I read it on Slashdot... First seen here in comp.os.vms back in December 1999. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:29:26 +0200 From: "P. Sture" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: In article <5d2epkF32epc8U1@mid.individual.net>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article , > "P. Sture" writes: >> > > > > Cough- I've got an OS X laptop :-) > > > > At the time I bought it, I perceived both Linux and Unix support for > > laptops to be weak. I have read that Linux has got better in that > > regard, but have the Unix alternatives also done so? > > I have been running FreeBSD on laptops since before Mac abandoned Power > in favor of x86. I currently have both a Toshiba Satellite and am IBM > Thinkpad running it and my boss has a current Lenovo. I got mine well before the advent of Intel Macs. > None of these > systems jave anywhere near the problems (both hardware and software) as > the one faculty member who actually has a Mac laptop. And we don't even > need to go into all the problems getting his Mac to play in our overall > infrastructure. The mere existence of this box has delayed the switch > to secure wireless by a year while we waited for the Mac to catchup with > all the other systems. How up to date was he with the OS X version? The version my Mac came with was definitely flaky. Later versions have been a definite improvement (heck - even _faster_ with each upgrade on the same system, as the memory management has improved). Major OS upgrades cost money, but I haven't minded paying for the improvements I have experienced. -- Paul Sture ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:34:34 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 10, 2007 9:37 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 > On 06/10/07 06:25, Main, Kerry wrote: > [snip] > >> All of which reduces the visibility of VMS and with HP telling no > one > >> about it, is it any wonder that so many people think VMS is dead > >> already? > >> > >> bill > >> > > > > So, do you think the University should put a character call > interface in > > front of the Operational folks instead of a nice GUI front end just > so > > they know they are running OpenVMS? >=20 > Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- > drool front-end. >=20 So, if you have your Help desk and junior level 1 staff supporting many different platforms, would you not want them to have a point and click environment vs giving them DCL or shell prompt access with elevated priv's to do the things they need to do on all the platforms they support? Besides how much different is running a DCL script vs a point-n-click web based environment? Both are simply automated ways of making it easier for junior staff to support the environment. > > Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD > > prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell > > prompt? > > > > How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with > web > > based front ends? >=20 > And how many are poorly administered? >=20 Many UNIX (most?) of the higher end OS platforms (Solaris, HP-UX, AIX etc) have web based administration and tool interfaces today. Same goes for Wintel and OpenVMS. > > Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys > Admins > > will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line > > support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing > some > > of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for > > OpenVMS. >=20 > Gee, how do you *become* experienced? Certainly not by pointing and > drooling. >=20 See comments above about Level 1 (junior) and Level 2 (experienced staff). > [snip] > > > > The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The > Academic > > world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical > > basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently > hit > > with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no > excuses!" > > . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor. > > > [snip] > > > > And by the way, while this University Admin dept was looking at > moving a > > few of their low priority Solaris environments to Linux, the idea of > > migrating Banner from their current Solaris environment to Linux > scared > > the Admin folks so much that I suspect they will not do it for a > very > > long time (if ever). >=20 > And our ex-mainframer CIO said, "Linux? Never! It's a toy!" It's > was brought in for non-critical stuff, performed well, he saw the > cost savings vs. HP-UX, and in came more Linux, higher up the > food-chain. >=20 And I would be willing to bet that no one has raised the monthly security issues with him either. > It's happening whether you like it or not. >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! I certainly do not mind a shop making an informed decision to move to one platform or another as long as it is a fully informed decision and they understand all the issues. If a shop is willing to move to a new environment and fully understands how they will address the numerous monthly security issues released by that platforms vendor, then that is great. Unfortunately, the hype and silence on these issues in the techie ranks means those making decisions are not aware of all the implications. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:43:29 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <466C4651.1090309@comcast.net> Ron Johnson wrote: > On 06/10/07 09:53, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >> Ron Johnson wrote: >> >>> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> >>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >> Windoze, while perhaps the easiest to use and install, is not without >> its pitfalls. Can anyone explain why an HP Laserjet with a JetDirect >> card, connected ONLY via the network, is NOT a "network printer"?? >> Believe me, it's not, though the reason why is not clear to me. > > > If it's not, what is it? > It's "directly attached" I believe. It's a new problem with W/XP. ISTR that with W2K you simply picked "network" and entered the IP address of the printer and the port number. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:11:01 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 13:34, Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] >> Sent: June 10, 2007 9:37 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Story Time >> >> On 06/10/07 06:25, Main, Kerry wrote: >> [snip] >>>> All of which reduces the visibility of VMS and with HP telling no >> one >>>> about it, is it any wonder that so many people think VMS is dead >>>> already? >>>> >>>> bill >>>> >>> So, do you think the University should put a character call >> interface in >>> front of the Operational folks instead of a nice GUI front end just >> so >>> they know they are running OpenVMS? >> Yes! It's damned hard to run a DCL script or FC from a point-n- >> drool front-end. >> > > So, if you have your Help desk and junior level 1 staff supporting many > different platforms, would you not want them to have a point and click > environment vs giving them DCL or shell prompt access with elevated > priv's to do the things they need to do on all the platforms they > support? Who gives elevated privs to *junior* staff? You give them enough privs to do their junior-level tasks and a set of canned SCHED jobs to do more advanced tasks. Then tell him to learn those DCL scripts if he wants to not be junior staff for the rest of his life. > Besides how much different is running a DCL script vs a point-n-click > web based environment? Both are simply automated ways of making it > easier for junior staff to support the environment. Thus keeping them junior level staff? >>> Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD >>> prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell >>> prompt? >>> >>> How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with >> web >>> based front ends? >> And how many are poorly administered? >> > > Many UNIX (most?) of the higher end OS platforms (Solaris, HP-UX, AIX > etc) have web based administration and tool interfaces today. Same goes > for Wintel and OpenVMS. Bah humbug. GUIs are for clients, not for Ops staff. >>> Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys >> Admins >>> will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line >>> support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing >> some >>> of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for >>> OpenVMS. >> Gee, how do you *become* experienced? Certainly not by pointing and >> drooling. >> > > See comments above about Level 1 (junior) and Level 2 (experienced > staff). And see my comments about training Level 1 staff to be Level 2 staff. Point-n-drool doesn't teach you DCL. >> [snip] [snip] >> And our ex-mainframer CIO said, "Linux? Never! It's a toy!" It's >> was brought in for non-critical stuff, performed well, he saw the >> cost savings vs. HP-UX, and in came more Linux, higher up the >> food-chain. >> > > And I would be willing to bet that no one has raised the monthly > security issues with him either. Apparently it hasn't affected system reliability enough to be a concern. Here's backhanded praise for Linux's stability: http://www.cio.com/article/print/114550 Linux servers have become a favorite home for memory- resident rootkits because they're so reliable. Rebooting a computer resets its memory. When you don't have to reboot, you don't clear the memory out, so whatever is there stays there, undetected. [snip] -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:15:47 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: June 10, 2007 10:36 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 [snip ..] >=20 > Oh, it's non sequitor time!! Of course not. They should have desktop > VMS in front of them and be running VMS from front to back. Oh wait, > none of those desktop apps exist, sorry, I'll go back to sleep now. > :-) >=20 Ok, following your logic, those same people should all be running Solaris WS's just because the back end server is Solaris - right? And for those AIX applications, well, I guess they will need AIX WS's on their desk as well - right? > > > > Does this not sound like running Windows applications from the CMD > > prompt? Or forcing OPS users to run UNIX applications from a shell > > prompt? >=20 > See above!! >=20 > > > > How many UNIX environment are maintained by front line admins with > web > > based front ends?=3D20 >=20 > Not sure what that means. All my Unix servers that have regular users > sport X frontends and work fine from the desktop without hiding what > they actually are. As an admin, while I do periodically sue web > graphical > interfaces I find most admin stuff is quicker and easier fromt he > command. > For example: adding users. How long do tou think it would take to add > the > 500-600 users every semester using a graphical interface that dows > them > one at a time? I take the classlists sent to me by the Registrar, run > them > through a simple program I wrote (in about 15 minutes) and the output > is > a data file I pass as input to the "adduser" command resulting in all > my > new users being on the system in less than 5 minutes. What admins do > is > very different from what the data entry people in admissions or HR do. >=20 You are talking about a level 2 support task vs. the Level 1 support resource who gets occasional requests to add a user or 2 or 3 .. Two different tasks for two different roles. > > > > Point is that, regardless of the platforms, while experienced Sys > Admins > > will typically use a character cell, in order to make the front line > > support issues less of an issue, they put GUI's in place for doing > some > > of the more mundane monitoring and managing tasks - same goes for > > OpenVMS. >=20 > I wasn't the one advocating character cell interfaces, you were. I > was > the one saying the GUI should be VMS and not some wimpy Windows Wwb > toy > so that the existence of VMS as the real reason for the businesses > success > was apparent and not hiden behind smoke and mirrors. >=20 > > > > The point I was making is that from all of your posts, you indicated > > that OpenVMS seemed to be almost gone at your University. >=20 > I, and others here, have said no such thing. We said VMS is gone from > academia. The place that made future CIO's and IT Managers no longer > males them aware of VMS's existence. And the one place where it is > still in use in education it is totally hidden in such a manner that > people think everything is done using Windows. All that just makes > the > decision to move to Windows completely easier when the time comes. If > people don;t know that VMS is the core of their operation are they > likely > to defend it when the time time to move comes? And if you think the > indians in the cubicles have any influence over the chiefs in the > corner > offices with the big windows, well, you are more out of touch with the > business than I thought. >=20 > > In fact, > > OpenVMS is running the most important environment (by far) which > likely > > every admin person and many students use extensively. >=20 > And none of them knows. All they know is "I do everythng on MS > Windows". >=20 > > > > Academic (your world) and Business Admin (Banner world) are two > > different worlds in most Universities I have been involved = with.=3D20 >=20 > Of course they are. I have also said that repeatedly. And which one > has historically driven the direction of IT history? Did Unix get as > far as it did because Universities in the 70's and 80's were using it > for their administration? >=20 > > > > The heat the Admin folks take if Banner even burps is huge. The > Academic > > world typically maintains their environment on a much less critical > > basis. The University I was just recently involved with was recently > hit > > with "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no > excuses!" > > . and this was a direct mandate from the Chancellor.=3D20 >=20 > Bull crap (well, maybe not in that one case). Our president has never > heard of VMS and probably doesn't know what Banner is either. Our > Provost Never said that he said anything about OpenVMS.=20 > the same. BUt to move along your thread above, what was it the > Chancellor > said? "whatever you do, make sure Banner is available 24x7 - no > excuses!" > Note, he didn't say VMS, he said Banner. So, what does that mean if > (as > I said I had heard) Banner moves to Windows? It means the whoever in the Operations shop decides to move to a new platform better find a way to apply all the monthly security patches and keep Windows as stable as their current Solaris environment or heads will roll. [That's why I mentioned the Operations shop at the Univ where I was at will not be doing this anytime soon. They have much bigger fish to fry.] >=20 > > > > In other words, rebooting for monthly security patches on a regular > > basis that is common with other platforms like Windows / Linux is a > > practice that has gone away for the Admin side.=3D20 >=20 > You keep harping on this. I don't re-boot my Unix boxes every month. > I > don't make changes that are not absolutely necessary in the during an > academic semester. And, contrary to what many here would have people > believe, the VMS systems here are taken down at regular intervals. >=20 I was talking about Linux and Windows.=20 Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots and do not have monthly security patches.=20 > > > > Re: ignoring security patches to maintain availability - while you > might > > think University settings are not hacker rich, I would beg to > differ, > > but perhaps your University is different than those I have been > involved > > with. >=20 > If soomething that is a threat were announced, I would likely patch it > and > reboot. =20 So, you do not have to test all your important applications with the patch before hand?=20 Like I said earlier, there are different requirements between Admin Production and Academic IT environments.=20 With Linux and Windows, there are 5-20 security patches each and every month. The "patch it and reboot" part of the process is only a minor part of the whole process - it is the App re-testing that is the 800 lb gorilla in terms of effort and visibility. But that happens so infrequently. The last time I had to do > anything was the DST change and that was hardly what one would call a > security problem. I didn't say we don;t have hackers, just that on a > well > run system, VMS or Unix, they can be controlled. >=20 Assuming that you patch or address all know security issues as you mentioned earlier. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 15:26:19 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l.johnson@cox.net] > Sent: June 10, 2007 3:11 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 [snip ..] > > > > And I would be willing to bet that no one has raised the monthly > > security issues with him either. >=20 > Apparently it hasn't affected system reliability enough to be a > concern. >=20 > Here's backhanded praise for Linux's stability: >=20 > http://www.cio.com/article/print/114550 >=20 > Linux servers have become a favorite home for memory- > resident rootkits because they're so reliable. Rebooting > a computer resets its memory. When you don't have to reboot, > you don't clear the memory out, so whatever is there stays > there, undetected. >=20 > [snip] >=20 > -- > Ron Johnson, Jr. > Jefferson LA USA >=20 > Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. > Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! While there is some overlap, reliability and security are two different topics. A system can stay up while it is hacked to pieces and sensitive data is milked off the system using well documented holes. :-) Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 19:42:31 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d32h7F33hn9uU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "P. Sture" writes: > In article <5d2epkF32epc8U1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > >> In article , >> "P. Sture" writes: >>> >> > >> > Cough- I've got an OS X laptop :-) >> > >> > At the time I bought it, I perceived both Linux and Unix support for >> > laptops to be weak. I have read that Linux has got better in that >> > regard, but have the Unix alternatives also done so? >> >> I have been running FreeBSD on laptops since before Mac abandoned Power >> in favor of x86. I currently have both a Toshiba Satellite and am IBM >> Thinkpad running it and my boss has a current Lenovo. > > I got mine well before the advent of Intel Macs. > >> None of these >> systems jave anywhere near the problems (both hardware and software) as >> the one faculty member who actually has a Mac laptop. And we don't even >> need to go into all the problems getting his Mac to play in our overall >> infrastructure. The mere existence of this box has delayed the switch >> to secure wireless by a year while we waited for the Mac to catchup with >> all the other systems. > > How up to date was he with the OS X version? The version my Mac came > with was definitely flaky. Later versions have been a definite > improvement (heck - even _faster_ with each upgrade on the same system, > as the memory management has improved). Major OS upgrades cost money, > but I haven't minded paying for the improvements I have experienced. The hardware has been back to Mac at least three times in the year he has had it and I don't even know how many times the OS has been upgraded. Seems like he is always having to install something which frequently makes other things stop working. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 10 Jun 2007 19:44:41 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <5d32l9F33hn9uU2@mid.individual.net> In article , Ron Johnson writes: > On 06/10/07 09:08, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article , >> Ron Johnson writes: >>> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>>> >>>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>>>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>>>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>>>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>>>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>>>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>>>> >>>>> Jan-Erik. >>>> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >>>> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >>>> >>>> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . >>> *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with >>> "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, >>> though, you'll have to do them a bit differently. >> >> And just what "desktop" function is it that you can do with Linux or >> OS X that you can't do with FreeBSD? > > None. Just jerking your chain a little. :) > >> Being as OS X is BSD userland, >> I would be amazed if there was something one could do that the other >> couldn't. > > Sure. The Mac has a friendly GUI, and BSD is stuck with a 5 year > old csh. Actually, the MAc has crappy (IMHO) GUI and BSD has had a GUI since before the first Mac laptop. Come to think of it, the first publicly available GUI was probably on BSD. :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:32:38 -0700 From: David B Sneddon Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <1181525558.697791.50910@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com> On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: [...snip...] > > Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you > are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, > since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots > and do not have monthly security patches. [...snip...] > Regards > > Kerry Main Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system has the latest ECOs installed? How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring a reboot? How many of those ECOs cause problems due to lack of proper QA? Yes, we all know about clusters and application availability but what about those systems that are not clustered? So let's have no more of this bullshit about having to reboot Weendoze, Linux etc. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:54:52 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: On 06/10/07 14:44, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article , > Ron Johnson writes: >> On 06/10/07 09:08, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>> In article , >>> Ron Johnson writes: >>>> On 06/09/07 14:17, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote: >>>>>>> Not so many machines here, but also proud to say "no Weendoze", >>>>>>> >>>>>> Which seems nothing but dumb to me. >>>>>> There is clearly a lot of things (in particular >>>>>> on the "desktop") where a Windows PC is a far >>>>>> better choise the any VMS box. In the same way >>>>>> that there are *other* areas where a VMS box >>>>>> is better then a PC, of course. But what the >>>>>> heck have *proud* whis this to do ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jan-Erik. >>>>> VMS is not too good with office applications like word processing, or >>>>> spreadsheets. AFAIK there's no Visio for VMS or any similar tool. >>>>> >>>>> Windoze and PCs have their place. Render unto Caesar. . . . >>>> *Most* tasks you can do with MS Windows you can also accomplish with >>>> "desktop Unix" (Linux or OS X, but *not* FreeBSD). Sometimes, >>>> though, you'll have to do them a bit differently. >>> And just what "desktop" function is it that you can do with Linux or >>> OS X that you can't do with FreeBSD? >> None. Just jerking your chain a little. :) >> >>> Being as OS X is BSD userland, >>> I would be amazed if there was something one could do that the other >>> couldn't. >> Sure. The Mac has a friendly GUI, and BSD is stuck with a 5 year >> old csh. > > Actually, the MAc has crappy (IMHO) GUI and BSD has had a GUI since before > the first Mac laptop. It was probably on some Stanford LISP machine... I wonder what DEC & MIT used when designing X Windows. > Come to think of it, the first publicly available > GUI was probably on BSD. :-) Impossible. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:59:13 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Story Time Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Sneddon [mailto:dbsneddon@bigpond.com] > Sent: June 10, 2007 9:33 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Story Time >=20 > On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >=20 > [...snip...] > > > > Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since > you > > are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was > happening, > > since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly > reboots > > and do not have monthly security patches. >=20 > [...snip...] >=20 > > Regards > > > > Kerry Main >=20 > Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system > has the latest ECOs installed? > How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring > a reboot? > How many of those ECOs cause problems due to lack of > proper QA? > Yes, we all know about clusters and application availability > but what about those systems that are not clustered? > So let's have no more of this bullshit about having to > reboot Weendoze, Linux etc. >=20 > Dave You missed the point of the discussion. Also, the difference between regular patches and security patches. One you can choose to implement when ever you want. The other is usually done very quickly after it is released. Every platform has occasional security patches - including OpenVMS. You test your important apps with the new security patch in the normal QA/Dev/Test cycle and then release it to production. The big difference is volume. With Windows and Linux, it is 5-20 security patches per month. And you can verify this by going to the MS/RH web sites where they are published. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 23:34:01 -0400 From: "Richard B. Gilbert" Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <466CC2A9.2050404@comcast.net> David B Sneddon wrote: > On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > [...snip...] > >>Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you >>are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, >>since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots >>and do not have monthly security patches. > > > [...snip...] > > >>Regards >> >>Kerry Main > > > Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system > has the latest ECOs installed? > How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring > a reboot? > How many of those ECOs cause problems due to lack of > proper QA? > Yes, we all know about clusters and application availability > but what about those systems that are not clustered? > So let's have no more of this bullshit about having to > reboot Weendoze, Linux etc. > > Dave > A "properly maintained" VMS System! How would I go about that? I'd install an older release. Say V7.2-1; something that's been on the streets for a while. Install the mandatory ECOs. Most of the problems have been found and fixed. Boot it. Let it run for a year or three. Maintenance consists of checking for problems and properly disposing of old log files. Check for version numbers above 1000 and reset! Make backups at appropriate intervals. Invent some activity to make it look as if you're doing something. Have another nap! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:57:53 -0500 From: Ron Johnson Subject: Re: Story Time Message-ID: <6L3bi.117614$NU1.115757@newsfe13.lga> On 06/10/07 22:34, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > David B Sneddon wrote: >> On Jun 10, 7:15 pm, "Main, Kerry" wrote: >> >> [...snip...] >> >>> Re: OpenVMS systems taken down at regular intervals ..Well, since you >>> are not on the Admin side, I would have to know why this was happening, >>> since properly maintained OpenVMS systems do not need monthly reboots >>> and do not have monthly security patches. >> >> >> [...snip...] >> >> >>> Regards >>> >>> Kerry Main >> >> >> Can one assume that a "properly maintained" VMS system >> has the latest ECOs installed? >> How many of those ECOs can be installed without requiring >> a reboot? >> How many of those ECOs cause problems due to lack of >> proper QA? >> Yes, we all know about clusters and application availability >> but what about those systems that are not clustered? >> So let's have no more of this bullshit about having to >> reboot Weendoze, Linux etc. >> >> Dave >> > > A "properly maintained" VMS System! How would I go about that? > I'd install an older release. Say V7.2-1; something that's been on the > streets for a while. Install the mandatory ECOs. Most of the problems > have been found and fixed. Boot it. Let it run for a year or three. > > Maintenance consists of checking for problems and properly disposing of > old log files. Check for version numbers above 1000 and reset! Make > backups at appropriate intervals. Invent some activity to make it look > as if you're doing something. Have another nap! Ensure that the disks stay bandwidth and capacity balanced. Scan the logs for signs of flaky hardware. Those ES40s and GS160s are getting old, after all. -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:23:52 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 VAX, TCPIP 5.3: error in FINGER Message-ID: In article , Roger Ivie writes: > On 2007-06-10, Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply wrote: > > The interesting thing is, I only get the error when FINGER has a > > particular account as its argument. (I get the error, for this account, > > from all accounts and for all VAXes in the cluster.) It is repeatable, > > but I'm pretty sure it wasn't always there. > > You get the error where? You run FINGER on the account and the result > is the error? Exactly. Again, it doesn't matter which account on which (VAX) machine runs the FINGER command, but it only happens when one particular account is the argument of the FINGER command. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.317 ************************