INFO-VAX Sat, 19 May 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 274 Contents: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Re: How to have the exact DCPS version number RE: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming OT: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists? Re: VMSMail notification message [OT] Steampunk keyboard. was: Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:11:31 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: Bill Todd wrote: > FredK wrote: > > ... > >>> Solaris really does have some unique capabilities when compared with >>> Linux and thats what seems to be driving the change, that plus clever >>> marketing by Sun. >>> >> >> Really? > > > Really. > > Unlike DECHPaq, whose last significant file system effort took place > over a decade ago with the introduction of AdvFS (RIP, Tru64) and whose > VMS file system offering has become positively antiquated, Solaris has > very recently introduced the most important new file system in the > entire industry since NetApp's WAFL (introduced at about the same time > AdvFS was). Solaris has efficient and effective software partitioning > in the form of 'zones'. Solaris appears to offer a significantly > broader and deeper range of development facilities than Linux does, > though I haven't investigated them in detail (yet). And Solaris has a > considerably better reputation for scaling and stability than Linux has. > > Just for starters, from someone not very familiar with the terrain. I'm > sure Andrew can flesh it out some more. > > - bill Agreed, on the one hand we have announcements about new software for vms, most of which came from or via unix and on the other hand, people here denigrating unix. Talk about looking gift horses in the mouth. Quite honestly, I haven't spotted a really cool, technically interesting idea from HP in years, despite all the spin about "HP Invent" etc. Just rehash of tired old material, or promotion of good stuff inherited from Dec and Compaq. They really do need to try much harder. On balance, I don't think HP are serious about corporate systems. This view is reinforced by lack of serious investment in VMS and their attraction to Linux, which is still unproven longterm, but of course has the advantage of running on x86. The gameplan possibly being to have one hardware platform to run all their os's, once Itanium has finally been put to out to grass. If they can convince clients that Linux is good enough, they can retire vms, hp-ux etc and deliver more value to shareholders, which seems to be the overriding concern. The only real way to break this mold is to split professional systems into a separate division, well away from consumer - there are too many incompatabilities for the two to coexist successfully. Face it - once hp descended to the level of the bazar, rather than the temple, there was bound to be serious trouble... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:34:22 GMT From: ChrisQuayle Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: FredK wrote: > > >>Is it there yet ?... >> > > > Thing is, Linux one day will "be there". Solaris... never seems to me to > have gotten there, or ever will now. It is usually one step above a windows > platform in reliability, and takes longer to reboot when it crashes (and > takes an expert to fix the crash itself). > So what is it about linux that makes it oh so well worth waiting for, when there are alternatives available with years of proven track record ?. As they used to say, "enquiring minds want to know". As for the solaris comments, fud. It's obviously a long time since you had a good, long *unbiased* look at it. You do yourself a disservice putting your name to stuff like that... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 07:54:51 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: ChrisQuayle [mailto:nospam@devnul.co.uk] > Sent: May 19, 2007 6:34 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >=20 > FredK wrote: > > > > > >>Is it there yet ?... > >> > > > > > > Thing is, Linux one day will "be there". Solaris... never seems to > me to > > have gotten there, or ever will now. It is usually one step above a > windows > > platform in reliability, and takes longer to reboot when it crashes > (and > > takes an expert to fix the crash itself). > > >=20 > So what is it about linux that makes it oh so well worth waiting for, > when there are alternatives available with years of proven track > record > ?. As they used to say, "enquiring minds want to know". >=20 > As for the solaris comments, fud. It's obviously a long time since you > had a good, long *unbiased* look at it. You do yourself a disservice > putting your name to stuff like that... >=20 > Chris Right now, Linux is often touted in some quarters as the very cool NBT (next big thing). Before that, Windows was the NBT. Before that Solaris was the NBT. Before that OpenVMS was the NBT, Before that the mainframe was the NBT.... While I am not a fan of Gartner overall (they do have some good analysts), one interesting item I read was all about the hype curve associated with new or re-branded products introduced into the market place. The bottom line is that every few years a new way of doing things or a new product is introduced and it gets a lot of hype from both the media and various supporters who jump on the bandwagon of the NBT. The supporters get frustrated when they hear any criticism of their chosen NBT and will defend it aggressively.=20 After awhile, the hype curve begins to fall off as people realize that their NBT will not solve or address all their issues and begin to realize some of its shortfalls.=20 Windows and Linux platforms were very popular when App programmers and the media were into distributed computing as a means to get away from those bad old "glass house" and Operations folks who "just did not understand their requirements". They used cheap, powerful systems that the local groups could manage themselves. Standards? Bahh .. who cares? Get the job done with what ever neat technology you can find that addressed your BU requirements. Fast forward to reality today and you have massive server and storage consolidation projects being initiated by almost all med-large companies. Number 1 driver is drastically reduce IT costs and a real biggie is not only cut the number of servers that are sitting at less than 15% utilization in peak times, but also reduce the number of OS instances as this is what is tied to FTE counts - by far the biggest slice of the IT budget (60+%). Centralized IT groups are now tasked by CEO's to re-gain control of their companies IT environments. The new theme is "App and end users do not dictate the solution - they dictate their requirements and IT will provide a solution that meets or exceeds these requirements". Having stated this, this does not mean the bad old IT guys are back. The new IT guys work closely with the Business groups to better understand their requirements and have much improved communication skills. So, while Linux and Windows were popular in the past, you have to now look at the big picture and consider: - 5-20 security patches released each and every month for these platforms. Remember that important Applications require Apps to be tested with each new OS patch. Huge QA/TEST costs every month which impacts the IT new functionality testing (stuff business wants). Can the company afford these platforms? - how well do they handle App stacking? Remember OS stacking with technologies like Zen and VMware and MS Virtual Server does not address FTE counts. - Senior Exec's now want their senior IT staff to be attending BU meetings - not playing in the OS weeds (monthly patching, continual OS testing, scheduling down time for OS reboots to apply patches etc).=20 Anyway, the hype curve does have value and in the very near future, I see a lot of companies starting to realize that the current NBT (Linux) will likely be a much smaller part of their future than what the NBT supporters would like. Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:58:25 -0400 From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <58a38$464f1e9a$cef89fcf$22575@TEKSAVVY.COM-Free> Main, Kerry wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ChrisQuayle [mailto:nospam@devnul.co.uk] >> Sent: May 19, 2007 6:34 AM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? >> >> FredK wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Is it there yet ?... >>>> >>> >>> >>> Thing is, Linux one day will "be there". Solaris... never seems >>> to me to have gotten there, or ever will now. It is usually one >>> step above a windows platform in reliability, and takes longer to >>> reboot when it crashes (and takes an expert to fix the crash >>> itself). >>> >> >> So what is it about linux that makes it oh so well worth waiting for, >> when there are alternatives available with years of proven track >> record >> ?. As they used to say, "enquiring minds want to know". >> >> As for the solaris comments, fud. It's obviously a long time since >> you had a good, long *unbiased* look at it. You do yourself a >> disservice putting your name to stuff like that... >> >> Chris > > Right now, Linux is often touted in some quarters as the very cool NBT > (next big thing). > > Before that, Windows was the NBT. Before that Solaris was the NBT. > Before that OpenVMS was the NBT, Before that the mainframe was the > NBT.... > > While I am not a fan of Gartner overall (they do have some good > analysts), one interesting item I read was all about the hype curve > associated with new or re-branded products introduced into the market > place. > > The bottom line is that every few years a new way of doing things or a > new product is introduced and it gets a lot of hype from both the > media and various supporters who jump on the bandwagon of the NBT. The > supporters get frustrated when they hear any criticism of their chosen > NBT and will defend it aggressively. > > After awhile, the hype curve begins to fall off as people realize that > their NBT will not solve or address all their issues and begin to > realize some of its shortfalls. > > Windows and Linux platforms were very popular when App programmers and > the media were into distributed computing as a means to get away from > those bad old "glass house" and Operations folks who "just did not > understand their requirements". They used cheap, powerful systems that > the local groups could manage themselves. Standards? Bahh .. who > cares? Get the job done with what ever neat technology you can find > that addressed your BU requirements. > > Fast forward to reality today and you have massive server and storage > consolidation projects being initiated by almost all med-large > companies. Number 1 driver is drastically reduce IT costs and a real > biggie is not only cut the number of servers that are sitting at less > than 15% utilization in peak times, but also reduce the number of OS > instances as this is what is tied to FTE counts - by far the biggest > slice of the IT budget (60+%). > > Centralized IT groups are now tasked by CEO's to re-gain control of > their companies IT environments. The new theme is "App and end users > do not dictate the solution - they dictate their requirements and IT > will provide a solution that meets or exceeds these requirements". > > Having stated this, this does not mean the bad old IT guys are back. > The new IT guys work closely with the Business groups to better > understand their requirements and have much improved communication > skills. > > So, while Linux and Windows were popular in the past, you have to now > look at the big picture and consider: > > - 5-20 security patches released each and every month for these > platforms. Remember that important Applications require Apps to be > tested with each new OS patch. Huge QA/TEST costs every month which > impacts the IT new functionality testing (stuff business wants). Can > the company afford these platforms? > > - how well do they handle App stacking? Remember OS stacking with > technologies like Zen and VMware and MS Virtual Server does not > address FTE counts. > > - Senior Exec's now want their senior IT staff to be attending BU > meetings - not playing in the OS weeds (monthly patching, continual OS > testing, scheduling down time for OS reboots to apply patches etc). > > Anyway, the hype curve does have value and in the very near future, I > see a lot of companies starting to realize that the current NBT > (Linux) will likely be a much smaller part of their future than what > the NBT supporters would like. Ah, so I've had my eyes opened at last!! It's those very unique features that are inherent to VMS that CEO's, CTO's, CIO's at Fortune 1000 and SMB's everywhere are clamoring for. So where's the HP television or print media ads for that, touting VMS? Or is it simply the case that there aren't enough 3rd-party apps left available for VMS that none of the C-level executives care to think about VMS being anything but a waste of time/money for them since HP doesn't appear to have any commitment to the o/s any longer? Why wasn't the new data warehousing initiative from HP targetted at VMS - just as a for instance? -- OpenVMS - The never-advertised operating system with the dwindling ISV base. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:36:56 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Anyone know why the Alpha market is so so quiet? Message-ID: <1b4f$464f27ca$cef8887a$26362@TEKSAVVY.COM> Main, Kerry wrote: > Before that, Windows was the NBT. Before that Solaris was the NBT. > Before that OpenVMS was the NBT, Before that the mainframe was the > NBT.... OpenVMS was NEVER the next best thing. VMS was. "OpenVMS" is still associated with the attempts by the owner at self sacrifice. It worked well for Digital Equipment Corporation (no longer exists) and Compaq (no longer exists). HP can unfortunatly survive with its coloured-water-in-expensive-cartridge business (unless Kodak really drives the prices down). > The bottom line is that every few years a new way of doing things or a > new product is introduced and it gets a lot of hype from both the media > and various supporters who jump on the bandwagon of the NBT. And how come VMS management have never been able to annouce VMS as the next best thing ? They haven't even tried. > Fast forward to reality today and you have massive server and storage > consolidation projects being initiated by almost all med-large > companies. But you don't see mass migrations from Windows and Linux to VMS. You are still seeing migrations FROM VMS. (Cerner being a big one). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 08:29:49 +0200 From: "Michel HERRSCHER" Subject: Re: How to have the exact DCPS version number Message-ID: Hello Dans un message kiwi-red disait : > Doesn't a show log dcps$version also tell you? > Assuming you've started it. > > kiwi $ show log dcps$version %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name DCPS$VERSION > > > > > > > On May 17, 11:35 pm, Paul Anderson wrote: >> In article <464b7...@news.langstoeger.at>, >> p...@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) wrote: >> >>> I do not run DCPS$STARTUP.COM (as you probably still know - I told it >>> more than once that I don't like to INIT a queue with every boot, I >>> only define the DCPS$ logicals and obviously not all ;-) >> >> Have you tried running DCPS$STARTUP in "setup" mode? We introduced it >> in V2.2 for customers like you who felt DCPS$STARTUP took too long to >> run due to all the INITIALIZE /QUEUE commands. >> >> Paul >> >> -- >> Paul Anderson >> OpenVMS Engineering >> Hewlett-Packard Company -- Michel HERRSCHER CONSULTANT Tel : +33450870912 http://www.mhc.herrscher.fr Président de WINDASSO - Association des utilisateurs WxxDEV(c) http://www.windasso.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 06:50:18 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu] On > Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > Sent: May 18, 2007 8:29 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? >=20 > In article <5b5k3dF2r5b10U1@mid.individual.net>, > bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA > VISTA? > > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM- > 11. Did > > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is > the VA > > really still running PDP-11's? > > >=20 > OK, I actually found at least some of the answer to this. Apparently > DSM > runs on VAX on top of VMS. Interesting. So now we can conclude that > at > least one remaining VMS customer is the VA, but somehow I don't think > they > will be moving to Itanium. I wonder if they are using real VAX > hardware > or something like Charon VAX? >=20 > bill Re: VA .. Wow, you sure missed on this one .. reference: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=3D184015= 5 3 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2004/040324a.html :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:47:13 -0400 From: "William Webb" Subject: Re: Is this OT or is there a connection with VMS? Message-ID: <8660a3a10705180947x6e28029eh175e8b2624145d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/18/07, Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > > Does anyone here know anything about "Digital Standard Mumps" and VA VI= STA? > > The last version of DSM I was familiar with (only vaguely) was DSM-11. = Did > > it eventually move to the VAX? Did it make it to the Alpha? Or is the= VA > > really still running PDP-11's? > > > > bill > > > > I believe that DSM runs on VAX/VMS. I'm less sure about VMS/Alpha. DSM > is widely used in Health Care applications and is almost unknown > elsewhere. Something called "Cache" is frequently found with DSM. A > large percentage of the remaining VMS jobs seem to require DSM/Cache > experience as well! > > > DSM does indeed run on VMS/Alpha. Cach=E9 is the successor product to DSM; again, DSM will not be ported to VMS on Integrity Servers; I personally know of several DSM =3D> Cach=E9 migration projects. WWWebb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 06:44:19 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: May 19, 2007 12:09 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? >=20 > David J Dachtera wrote: > > DEC VAX and the IBM mainframe. The VAX platform will be sunset in > the future, >=20 > Gartner saw the cancer in its early stages. And that cancer slowly > grew. > Now we are at the point where organs are shutting down one by one. >=20 > Initially, it was easy for VMS loyalists to be in denial and pretend > that Gartner was wrong and that VMS wasn't dying. Since the demise of > Alpha and forced migration to an even more unpopular platform, > Gartner > hasn't even bothered to continue to comment on the lack of future for > VMS. >=20 Ah yes, this would be the same analyst company that stated in 1990 that by 1995, all mainframes would be history. Btw, did you notice in the article that this particular company was planning new development on the mainframe? :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 06:26:17 -0700 From: ultradwc@gmail.com Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <1179581177.359146.15810@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 10:49 pm, David J Dachtera wrote: > Encountered this job posting from one of my VMS job agents... > > http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?Job_DID=J... > > (Sorry - the URL may wrap.) > > Here's the relevant text, edited a bit to "sanitize": > > Senior Systems Analyst > > The Real-time Holdings (GDS) team has an open position for a dynamic individual > who is interested in joining our team. The candidate will support the Trust Bank > Reporting (TBR) application, as well as learning other applications supported by > the GDS team, to include the GDS application, PCA, Oscar, and Fidelity Sweep. > The candidate will support TBR... Components of TBR have been developed on the > DEC VAX and the IBM mainframe. The VAX platform will be sunset in the future, > requiring the remaining components and processes for TBR to be re-engineered on > the mainframe platform. To achieve the goal of porting the remaining components > of the application to a new platform, the role of the candidate will require > strong analysis and programming skills and full understanding of the components > on the current platform, to be able to contribute to the development on the new > platform. Additional responsibilities include production support on the current > and new system platforms. no it does not ... this company obviously was brainwashed by IBM as they never went to alpha or itanium but are keeping IBM ... the vms port would be a lot easier if they just went to alpha or itanium, but they do not know what they are doing and have chosen to listen to outside sales people like many companies ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 06:37:25 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: On Sat, 19 May 2007 06:26:17 -0700, wrote: > On May 18, 10:49 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: >> Encountered this job posting from one of my VMS job agents... >> >> http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Jobs/JobDetails.aspx?Job_DID=3D= J... >> >> (Sorry - the URL may wrap.) >> >> Here's the relevant text, edited a bit to "sanitize": >> >> Senior Systems Analyst >> >> The Real-time Holdings (GDS) team has an open position for a dynamic = = >> individual >> who is interested in joining our team. The candidate will support the= = >> Trust Bank >> Reporting (TBR) application, as well as learning other applications = >> supported by >> the GDS team, to include the GDS application, PCA, Oscar, and Fidelit= y = >> Sweep. >> The candidate will support TBR... Components of TBR have been develop= ed = >> on the >> DEC VAX and the IBM mainframe. The VAX platform will be sunset in the= = >> future, >> requiring the remaining components and processes for TBR to be = >> re-engineered on >> the mainframe platform. To achieve the goal of porting the remaining = = >> components >> of the application to a new platform, the role of the candidate will = = >> require >> strong analysis and programming skills and full understanding of the = = >> components >> on the current platform, to be able to contribute to the development = on = >> the new >> platform. Additional responsibilities include production support on t= he = >> current >> and new system platforms. > > no it does not ... this company obviously was brainwashed by IBM as > they never > went to alpha or itanium but are keeping IBM ... the vms port would be= > a lot easier > if they just went to alpha or itanium, but they do not know what they > are doing and > have chosen to listen to outside sales people like many companies ... > Actually, not. Northern Trust like many other banks has been a PL/I sho= p for almost 40 years. So they could gave ported to Alpha, but not Itaniu= m. Unlike Digital, IBM does not ignore their customers. -- = Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:07:56 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <464F20DC.B7E95CC5@spam.comcast.net> "Main, Kerry" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > > Sent: May 19, 2007 12:09 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? > > > > David J Dachtera wrote: > > > DEC VAX and the IBM mainframe. The VAX platform will be sunset in > > the future, > > > > Gartner saw the cancer in its early stages. And that cancer slowly > > grew. > > Now we are at the point where organs are shutting down one by one. > > > > Initially, it was easy for VMS loyalists to be in denial and pretend > > that Gartner was wrong and that VMS wasn't dying. Since the demise of > > Alpha and forced migration to an even more unpopular platform, > > Gartner > > hasn't even bothered to continue to comment on the lack of future for > > VMS. > > > > Ah yes, this would be the same analyst company that stated in 1990 that > by 1995, all mainframes would be history. > > Btw, did you notice in the article that this particular company was > planning new development on the mainframe? I believe that as used these days "mainframe" could refer to high-end p-series (AIX) machines, as well. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 19:27:21 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: Is VMS losing the Financial Sector, also? Message-ID: <464f3261$0$21931$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> JF Mezei wrote: > David J Dachtera wrote: >> DEC VAX and the IBM mainframe. The VAX platform will be sunset in >> the future, > > Gartner saw the cancer in its early stages. And that cancer slowly > grew. Now we are at the point where organs are shutting down one by > one. > Initially, it was easy for VMS loyalists to be in denial and pretend > that Gartner was wrong and that VMS wasn't dying. Since the demise of > Alpha and forced migration to an even more unpopular platform, Gartner > hasn't even bothered to continue to comment on the lack of > future for VMS. > VMS still has some stock exchanges due to the swedish stock exchange > software arm still somewhat loyal to VMS. Me thinks Sue should be > commuting every week to Sweden to ensure they are happy staying with > VMS. It's Rdb that is the keeper. They have been unsuccessful getting Oracle classic to replace Rdb reliably, though AFAIK they have been trying for quite some time. I think If Rdb turned up on WindowsAS, OM would be happy to go in that direction I suspect (oh, it exists in fact, but is dead). Same for some breed of U*x (oh, that existed too, but th U*x it ran on is also dead). NYMEX converted away from Rdb to Oracle8 recently. The requirement for VMS in the future went out the window there as well. Not sure what OS they are on at the moment. I know plenty of other Rdb sites that will be ex-VMS sites as soon as they can get the necessary quality/performance/operations reliability out of Oracle Classic. Dweeb. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 02:23:02 -0400 From: Bill Todd Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: Dr. Dweeb wrote: ... > But hey, what do I know Very little, as was evident from your embarrassing performance last go-around on this topic. You clearly don't even understand the references which you yourself offer up as evidence supposedly supporting your position. - bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 16:50:25 +0800 From: "Richard Maher" Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: Hi, This is just a clever ruse by the Kiwis to try to improve their incredibly crap weather by actively encouraging global warming. (Similar to the "Burn a car tyre day" campaign that I was running out of London in the 90's) Of course if all else fails they can always revert back to the "sheep and velcro gloves" strategy (or "Plan A" as it is referred to in the constitution :-) Cheers Richard Maher PS. So the Franz Joseph and Fox glaciers are now what, 1m? above sea level (But still moving a shit load quicker than Matt Muggeridge :-) wrote in message news:1179529726.487926.268500@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaruherald/4064691a6571.html > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:00:17 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: In article <1179529726.487926.268500@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, ultradwc@gmail.com writes: >http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaruherald/4064691a6571.html > Climate Change - A quick rebuttal to Augie Auer's opinion in the NZ Herald see http://www.te-software.co.nz/blog/augie_auer.htm David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 04:56:06 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <1179575766.684466.102090@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On May 18, 7:08 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: > http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaruherald/4064691a6571.html Since most of us are unfamiliar with this author we have no way to know if this article is factual or political. ### I attended a Dec-2006 lecture by a NASA climatologist (more of an expert in this area than a typical author of newspaper articles) and he said that all 25 popular models agreed that global warming exists and that human action, or inaction, will tilt the scales either way. The models disagreed on the time frame which could be anyware from 50 to 100 years. ### I have never believed everything published on this topic. For example, in Al Gore's movie called "An Inconvenient Truth" Mr. Gore talks about the flooding of Florida, India, China, etc due to melting. Although Greenland and Antartica are melting and this will cause many agriculture problems, "I do not believe" that ocean levels will rise anywhere near as high as Gore claims (although they will rise). But I am not a scientist so don't believe me. For a source of good articles (warts and all) on this topic please click the following link. http://environment.newscientist.com/climatemyths For those of you who won't be reading these articles here is the "reader's digest version": Global Warming exisits; there are some facts in dispute; there is more information coming; humanity must act now (there is no need to wait until all the data is in) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 13:16:56 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: In article <1179575766.684466.102090@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Neil Rieck writes: >On May 18, 7:08 pm, ultra...@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaruherald/4064691a6571.html > >Since most of us are unfamiliar with this author we have no way to >know if this article is factual or political. > > ### > >I attended a Dec-2006 lecture by a NASA climatologist (more of an >expert in this area than a typical author of newspaper articles) and >he said that all 25 popular models agreed that global warming exists >and that human action, or inaction, will tilt the scales either way. >The models disagreed on the time frame which could be anyware from 50 >to 100 years. > > ### > >I have never believed everything published on this topic. For example, >in Al Gore's movie called "An Inconvenient Truth" Mr. Gore talks about >the flooding of Florida, India, China, etc due to melting. Although >Greenland and Antartica are melting and this will cause many >agriculture problems, "I do not believe" that ocean levels will rise >anywhere near as high as Gore claims (although they will rise). But I >am not a scientist so don't believe me. > I've not actually seen "An Inconvenient Truth" but I'd hope Gore made clear that he was only talking about coastal, or low lying regions being flooded in florida, India and China. Certainly as any Atlas will show most of China and India are much too high to be flooded even if all the ice were to melt. However it doesn't take much of a rise to severely alter their coastlines and make currently safe regions vulnerable to storm surges etc. (Although only a small part of these large countries would be at risk it would still be a fairly large land area.) For Florida " A 5-foot rise in sea level will inundate 435,811 coastal acres in Collier County, or about one-third of its total land mass, according to Dan Trescott, a planner with the Southwest Florida Regional Planning Council. Lee County will lose 80,750 acres, or about 15 percent of its geography. Estimated time of arrival: 2200. " and of course there are always low lying cities such as New Orleans " With a sea level rise of 2 feet by the end of this century, the most vulnerable areas in the South are New Orleans, the Mid-Atlantic Coast and southern Florida, said Judith Curry, an atmospheric sciences professor at Georgia Tech. " see http://www.bonitanews.com/news/2007/apr/06/southwest_floridas_future_appears_flooded/?local_news Although the majority of India is much too high to be flooded the same cannot be said of it's impoverished next door neighbour Bangledesh. David Webb Security team leader CCSS Middlesex University >For a source of good articles (warts and all) on this topic please >click the following link. >http://environment.newscientist.com/climatemyths >For those of you who won't be reading these articles here is the >"reader's digest version": Global Warming exisits; there are some >facts in dispute; there is more information coming; humanity must act >now (there is no need to wait until all the data is in) > >Neil Rieck >Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, >Ontario, Canada. >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ > ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 13:49:16 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <5b8dirF2rhjobU1@mid.individual.net> In article <464e54ac$0$21929$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > ultradwc@gmail.com wrote: >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaruherald/4064691a6571.html > > Naturally. This is the position of all those capable of reading the science > and who do not have a vested interest in the promulgation of the > politically correct (but scientifically, totally unsupportable) line. > > AGW is irrelevant, on a global scale. > > There are so many environmental issues which *are* relevant and which can be > addressed, that it is truly sadenning to see the obsession with the > pointless and urrelevant (CO2 volume) issue. It is based on non-science and > detracts from the real issues at hand. :( > > But hey, what do I know, my mentors in this field are merely scientiests > with extremely high credibility who have chosen to keep their own counsel. > They laugh at Al Gore and his polemic, as I do, and for the same reasons. You talk like this is something new. This is (and has been) the norm for pseudo-science environmentalism. Looks like time to bring out one of my favorite examples again. Seems back in the 60's a papermill opened up in Wyoming County, PA. Sportsmen noticed decline in the Susquehanna River below the papermill and immediately started screaming "Pollution!!!" Of course, the owners of the papermill responded with the fact that the discharge water from the plant was actually cleanewr than the water they took in out of the river. As a matter of fact, the executive tour of the plant included the touring manager taking a glass of water directly from the discharge and drinking it as proof that there was nothing hazardous in the water. But, "No", the people said. "Pollution!!!" So they hired some "scientist" from Penn State to prove it. For weeks the local papers displayed pictures of her in her hip-boots wading int he river around the plant taking her samples. This went on for months and months and, you know what, she never found any trace of pollution. The water coming out of the plant was, in fact, cleaner than the water they took in from the river. Eventually, the whole thing just went away as people got bored with the lack of results. Ready for the punch line? The plant was, in fact, "polluting" the river. The water coming out of the plant was considerably warmer thant he natural temperature of the river. This raised the temperature below the plant. This had the effect of causing the fish to swim upstream to spawn later which resulted in the eggs being layed too late in the year for them to hatch and the little fish survive. Interestingly enough, nature dealt with it. The fish learned and changed their habits so that they went back to spawning at the right time and the river is now (and has been for decades) alive with fish and a sportsman's pardise. Lessons learned (well, obviously nothing has been learned, but this is what those willing to learn learned)? Nature will adapt. Man often misses the reality by focusing on the wrong thing. The scientific method has been abandoned in favor of politics which bring in much more grant money. Oh yeah, this is not a zero sum game. The net result of having this plant is that the river is actually cleaner than it would be without it. Well, at least until it gets to Lackawanna County where the Sanitary Authority dumps raw sewage into it! bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 07:46:49 -0700 From: Neil Rieck Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <1179586009.903220.47880@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com> On May 19, 9:49 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > [...snip...] > > Oh yeah, this is not a zero sum game. The net result of having this plant > is that the river is actually cleaner than it would be without it. Well, > at least until it gets to Lackawanna County where the Sanitary Authority > dumps raw sewage into it! > Which would be warmer :-) Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/ ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 07:51:22 -0700 From: BaxterD@tessco.com Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <1179586282.439910.33870@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On May 19, 9:49 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > In article <464e54ac$0$21929$157c6...@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, > "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > > .................. Lessons learned > (well, obviously nothing has been learned, but this is what those willing > to learn learned)? Nature will adapt. Man often misses the reality > by focusing on the wrong thing. The scientific method has been abandoned > in favor of politics which bring in much more grant money. > I apologise for the fact that this post is OT, I just felt that I had to put in my 2 cents worth. Although your post was interesting, I am not sure what the point was. I don't think that any of the proponents of AGW are predicting that there is going to be some kind of ecological disaster, (although there will undoubtably be casualties in the natural world). Such an argument would carry little if any weight anyway since most of the world's populations are fairly apathetic, if not actually indifferent, to the fate of the world's flora and fauna. (Look for example at the fate of the Dodo, the Great Auk, the Tasmanian Wolf, and for that matter, native tasmanians, not just bugs, or weeds, but significant species, all of which were allowed to be predated until they were no longer viable. At which point they all went extinct -- and within the last 150 years.) And so long as the main effects are not expected to occur until after they are dead, then they see it as some one else's problem. It has always been like that, and I suspect it will always be like that. (Human nature I suppose). Governments will never legislate a response to these situations because the required steps will either make them unpopular, or will require people (and/or industries/Corporations) to change their way of doing things (which will make them unpopular). Because of these constraints, any legislation they do create is fairly insipid, and full of so many holes that there is a cop-out for everyone. In Europe, a family car which does not give at least 45 miles/gal would be a non-starter, not because Europeans and particulary eco- friendly, but primarily because gas costs the equivalent of ~$6-7 per gallon, and has for about the last 10 years. As a result, almost all family cars are 4-cylinders with capacities less than 2 litres. The US government recently proposed that the Motor industries had to meet a fuel efficiency standard requiring that cars had to get ~35 mpg (not sure of the exact number) however it contained so many exclusions i.e. SUV, Pickups, etc. etc., and since ~60% of Americans drive either an SUV or a Pickup, what does it acheive. To get back to my original point, there is almost certainly NOT going to be an ecological disaster. Nature - as you so rightly point out - will adapt. The point that most people are missing is that the disaster is going to be predominantly human. As was pointed out, New Orleans is actually below sea-level, so to is Venice Italy. Areas like Bangladesh and florida (south of Orlando) average ~4-5' above sea level, (in the Florida Keys, the average is ~3' above sea level. These areas currently flood intermittently, i.e. Bangladesh during the monsoon, and Florida/New Orleans during climatic events like Hurricanes, but although these events result in mass evacuations, they are generally looked on as temporary. If AGW causes a rise in sea level of only 5' then these areas become basically a collection of small islands, so what happens to the 300M people in Bangladesh, or the 10 million people in Southern Florida. All in all, a 5' rise in global sea levels will create ~1 Billion refugees, or displaced persons - where do they go in an already crowded world. It is questionable whether the human race can do anything at this point which will avert the oncoming disaster. What people are really trying to push is the idea that we have to make a start somewhere, just to try to minimize or mitigate the effects. If AGW is real, the rate at which the ice will melt will not be constant, it will increase exponentially. It might be only 2-3-4-5 feet by the end of the century, but it will be likely 50 feet by year 2200. If all of the ice melts then we (or at least our decendents) will be facing sea levels which are 200 feet higher. Again, if AGW is real, corrective actions will not be effective overnight. Efforts made now will not make any difference for probably 50 years, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort. Finally, the arguments about whether AGW is a 'real' problem are truly stupid. There is very little argument about whether the extended release of Greenhouse gases is good or bad for the world. Most agree that it is bad. So why not stop it anyway. That way if AGW is real, we have at least done what we can, and if it is not, they we did a good thing anyway. Its kind of like the argument about smoking. I think that most people (even most smokers) agree that not smoking is better. So in stead of arguing whether it is good or bad for people, why not just stop anyway. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 12:31:40 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: Neil Rieck wrote: > I attended a Dec-2006 lecture by a NASA climatologist All NASA and NOAA public presentations on global warming since January 2001 have have to be vetted by the White House. No matter what you heard, the speaker was not free to say what they had REALLY found and was forced by the White House to word statement to use words such as "might" instead of "is". > in Al Gore's movie called "An Inconvenient Truth" Mr. Gore talks about > the flooding of Florida, India, China, etc due to melting. It is a fact that the amount of water stored in the kilometerS thick Greenland ice sheet is capable of raising global ocean levels significantly. (And when you combine this with Antarctica ice as well as some of the land-base ice in the arctic, the problem is even worse, but Greenland is the big issue for ocean levels. A rise in ocean levels, even minimal, will also cause a lot of weather pattern changes. ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 10:52:16 -0700 From: AEF Subject: Re: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: <1179597136.000843.62090@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com> On May 19, 10:51 am, Baxt...@tessco.com wrote: > On May 19, 9:49 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > > > In article <464e54ac$0$21929$157c6...@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, > > "Dr. Dweeb" writes: [...] > And so long as the main effects are not expected to occur until after > they are dead, then they see it as some one else's problem. It has > always been like that, and I suspect it will always be like that. > (Human nature I suppose). > > Governments will never legislate a response to these situations > because the required steps will either make them unpopular, or will > require people (and/or industries/Corporations) to change their way of > doing things (which will make them unpopular). Because of these > constraints, any legislation they do create is fairly insipid, and > full of so many holes that there is a cop-out for everyone. > In Europe, a family car which does not give at least 45 miles/gal > would be a non-starter, not because Europeans and particulary eco- > friendly, but primarily because gas costs the equivalent of ~$6-7 per > gallon, and has for about the last 10 years. As a result, almost > all family cars are 4-cylinders with capacities less than 2 > litres. Isn't the fact that gasoline is so expeinsive in Europe due to taxes? You've just made a good case for a carbon tax, assuming one wants to reduce CO2 emissions. > The US government recently proposed that the Motor industries had to > meet a fuel efficiency standard requiring that cars had to get ~35 mpg > (not sure of the exact number) however it contained so many exclusions > i.e. SUV, Pickups, etc. etc., and since ~60% of Americans drive either > an SUV or a Pickup, what does it acheive. > > To get back to my original point, there is almost certainly NOT going > to be an ecological disaster. Nature - as you so rightly point out - > will adapt. Nature adapted 65 million years ago (and many other times, of course). Ask the dinosaurs or any of the millions of other species that went extinct due to causes other than being hunted by humans. > The point that most people are missing is that the disaster is going > to be predominantly human. As was pointed out, New Orleans is I thought that was precisely the point that people warning about global warming were making: More frequent and more severe tropical storms (including hurricanes and such), massive coastal flooding, major climatic changes affecting farming, etc., *in addition* to species extinctions. [...] > Dave. AEF ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 08:30:13 -0700 From: "Tom Linden" Subject: OT: New Zealnders now laughing at global warming Message-ID: Please take this chatter to another newsgroup that tolerates scientific gadflies and diletantes. AGW is not measureable. On Sat, 19 May 2007 07:51:22 -0700, wrote: > On May 19, 9:49 am, b...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: >> In article <464e54ac$0$21929$157c6...@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, >> "Dr. Dweeb" writes: >> > >> .................. Lessons >> learned >> (well, obviously nothing has been learned, but this is what those >> willing >> to learn learned)? Nature will adapt. Man often misses the reality >> by focusing on the wrong thing. The scientific method has been >> abandoned >> in favor of politics which bring in much more grant money. >> > > I apologise for the fact that this post is OT, I just felt that I > had to put in my 2 cents worth. > > Although your post was interesting, I am not sure what the point > was. I don't think that any of the proponents of AGW are > predicting that there is going to be some kind of ecological disaster, > (although there will undoubtably be casualties in the natural > world). > > Such an argument would carry little if any weight anyway since most of > the world's populations are fairly apathetic, if not actually > indifferent, to the fate of the world's flora and fauna. (Look for > example at the fate of the Dodo, the Great Auk, the Tasmanian Wolf, > and for that matter, native tasmanians, not just bugs, or weeds, but > significant species, all of which were allowed to be predated until > they were no longer viable. At which point they all went extinct -- > and within the last 150 years.) > > And so long as the main effects are not expected to occur until after > they are dead, then they see it as some one else's problem. It has > always been like that, and I suspect it will always be like that. > (Human nature I suppose). > > Governments will never legislate a response to these situations > because the required steps will either make them unpopular, or will > require people (and/or industries/Corporations) to change their way of > doing things (which will make them unpopular). Because of these > constraints, any legislation they do create is fairly insipid, and > full of so many holes that there is a cop-out for everyone. > > In Europe, a family car which does not give at least 45 miles/gal > would be a non-starter, not because Europeans and particulary eco- > friendly, but primarily because gas costs the equivalent of ~$6-7 per > gallon, and has for about the last 10 years. As a result, almost > all family cars are 4-cylinders with capacities less than 2 > litres. > > The US government recently proposed that the Motor industries had to > meet a fuel efficiency standard requiring that cars had to get ~35 mpg > (not sure of the exact number) however it contained so many exclusions > i.e. SUV, Pickups, etc. etc., and since ~60% of Americans drive either > an SUV or a Pickup, what does it acheive. > > To get back to my original point, there is almost certainly NOT going > to be an ecological disaster. Nature - as you so rightly point out - > will adapt. > > The point that most people are missing is that the disaster is going > to be predominantly human. As was pointed out, New Orleans is > actually below sea-level, so to is Venice Italy. Areas like > Bangladesh and florida (south of Orlando) average ~4-5' above sea > level, (in the Florida Keys, the average is ~3' above sea level. > These areas currently flood intermittently, i.e. Bangladesh during the > monsoon, and Florida/New Orleans during climatic events like > Hurricanes, but although these events result in mass evacuations, > they are generally looked on as temporary. > > If AGW causes a rise in sea level of only 5' then these areas become > basically a collection of small islands, so what happens to the 300M > people in Bangladesh, or the 10 million people in Southern > Florida. All in all, a 5' rise in global sea levels will create ~1 > Billion refugees, or displaced persons - where do they go in an > already crowded world. > > It is questionable whether the human race can do anything at this > point which will avert the oncoming disaster. What people are > really trying to push is the idea that we have to make a start > somewhere, just to try to minimize or mitigate the effects. > > If AGW is real, the rate at which the ice will melt will not be > constant, it will increase exponentially. It might be only 2-3-4-5 > feet by the end of the century, but it will be likely 50 feet by year > 2200. If all of the ice melts then we (or at least our decendents) > will be facing sea levels which are 200 feet higher. > > Again, if AGW is real, corrective actions will not be effective > overnight. Efforts made now will not make any difference for > probably 50 years, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort. > > Finally, the arguments about whether AGW is a 'real' problem are truly > stupid. There is very little argument about whether the extended > release of Greenhouse gases is good or bad for the world. Most > agree that it is bad. So why not stop it anyway. That way if > AGW is real, we have at least done what we can, and if it is not, they > we did a good thing anyway. > > Its kind of like the argument about smoking. I think that most > people (even most smokers) agree that not smoking is better. So in > stead of arguing whether it is good or bad for people, why not just > stop anyway. > > Dave. > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 00:46:58 -0700 From: Rambo Subject: Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard Message-ID: <1179560818.002675.303210@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> So I take is a a "no" no one has it. Calling David Turner, sent you a few queries, but seems they got lost somehow... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:04:06 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard Message-ID: "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:e4ff$464e8f9f$cef8887a$16711@TEKSAVVY.COM... > William Webb wrote: >> jf, the part number is (gasp) LK461-xx where xx denotes the language >> variant or possibly some other specialization such as a WPS keyboard. > > > When you call many of the HP 800 sales numbers, nobody knows about an > LK461-xx part number. When I got my DS10L last year, I spent many hours > trying to order one from HP. Ended up getting one from ebay because at > least EBAY's search engine was able to find the part numbers. The LK461 is not available. Has not been for a long time. It was replaced by the LK463 which is the USB keyboard - a dongle converts it to PS2 (and I believe comes with the LK463 part number). The AB552A is the LK463 packaged with a thumbwheel mouse. Again, they are USB but convert to PS2 with a dongle. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 11:30:40 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Message-ID: <00A67D70.10F61800@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article , "John Gemignani, Jr." writes: > > > > wrote in message >news:00A67CA9.6B1B60E2@SendSpamHere.ORG... >> In article , "John Gemignani, >> Jr." writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> wrote in message >>>news:00A67BE3.65BC8D18@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>> In article , "John Gemignani, >>>> Jr." writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>>news:00A67B09.4FAB7135@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>>>> In article , "John >>>>>> Gemignani, >>>>>> Jr." writes: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>>news:00A67A7C.E34FD775@SendSpamHere.ORG... >>>>>>>> In article <00A67A68.F7818E9B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- >>>>>>>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>>>>>>>>{...snip...} >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A little more info... the socket name structures are documented on >>>>>>>> section >>>>>>>> 5.5 of >>>>>>>> the HP TCPIP Services "Sockets API and System Services Programming"; >>>>>>>> particularly >>>>>>>> in figures 5.8, 5.9 and 5.10. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When using the IO$_SENSEMODE, is there anyway to enforce one format >>>>>>>> over >>>>>>>> another? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker >>>>>>>> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I coded up the QIO interface when TCPIP added support for IPv6. This >>>>>>>required the BSD 4.4 interface which included the new length field. To >>>>>>>use >>>>>>>the BSD 4.4 interface (SIN44$), you need to set a special bit in the >>>>>>>QIO >>>>>>>modifiers. I think it was something like the IO$M_EXTEND bit. >>>>>>>Otherwise >>>>>>>a >>>>>>>BSD 4.3 block (SIN$) is returned. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have just IO$_ACPCONTROL and I am getting back a SIN6$ structure >>>>>> without >>>>>> the use of the IO$M_EXTEND modifier bit. >>>>> >>>>> So then, you're NOT using IO$_SENSEMODE as you stated in your >>>>> original >>>>>question. >>>>> If you're using IO$_ACPCONTROL, are you asking the ACP to perform >>>>> name >>>>>translation? >>>>> From what I recall, that was an undocumented interface (but I could >>>>> be >>>>>wrong). >>>> >>>> Sorry, it is IO$_SENSEMODE... not IO$_ACPCONTROL. I just posted a >>>> simple >>>> bit of code. >>> >>> >>> What did you specify for a length in the descriptor? Did you give it >>> the >>>full potential size of the result? >> >> Yes. >> >> >> -- >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker >> VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >> >> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" > >How was this socket created? Was it created with address family AF_INET6? Any means. I'm trying to programatically mimic the gathering of info the likes of TCPIP SHOW DEVICE. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:38:46 -0700 From: "John Gemignani, Jr." Subject: Re: TCPIP programming (sockaddr_in question) Message-ID: wrote in message news:00A67CAA.A1C5C707@SendSpamHere.ORG... > In article , "Richard Maher" > writes: >> >> >>Hi Brian, >> >>I'll re-read the whole thread again tonight but do these changes yeild the >>result you're after? >> >>PEER: .WORD 16,0 >>..ADDRESS P_ADR >>..ADDRESS P_LEN >>..LONG 0 >> >>P_LEN: .LONG 0 >>P_ADR: >>addr_dom: .word 0 >>port_num: .word 0 >>host_adr: .byte 0[4] >> .blkb 8 This area is too small. The SIN4 is 16 bytes and the SIN6 is much larger, like 24-32. There should be symbol definitions for these in $INETDEF. In C, I would often code up the sockaddr as a union of a sin4 and sin6. It is important to note that you can get an IPv4 encapsulated address using the IPv6 interfaces (there are C macros that check certain IPv6 address fields for the appropriate FF's that indicate such). > > I had tried that. > > If I set the descriptor to PEER: .WORD 16,0 and shorten the P_ADR (not > really necessary if this is TRULY using the descriptor, I get the P_LEN > returned (as expected) as 10(16) or 16. I still get xxxx001A returned > in the first longword of the P_ADR structure. This is the signature of > the SIN6$ sockaddr_in (length of 1A(16) or 26) and the socket number. > The next few longwords are 0. > > This is why I asked this question. There does not seem to be a way to > enforce SIN or SIN44 or SIN6. It returns what it returns and it seems > that it is up to the programmer to make a determination and handle it > accordingly -- which I have in my code but this behavior doesn't seem > to be well documented in the manuals. > > -- > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > > "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 10:39:24 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: VMS 8.2 VMSINSTAL Bug with RUN_IMAGE Persists? Message-ID: "Richard Maher" wrote in message news:f2lcn0$5co$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au... > Hi, > > I know you're all dying to know how this turned out. Apparently the first > mail (and quite a few other one's from more important people :-) didn't > get > through, and the last one was late. In any event here is the feed-back: - > >> I don't have a support contract, though I did make sure it got >> through to VMS Engineering. >> on an unofficial basis. > > So clearly I am not the only one to experience the full brunt of that > delightful VMS engineering arrogance that I speek so much of. And there > was > I feeling special :-( > > "Don't have a support contact? Those stinking pigs! Get me a knife; I'm > going to cut VMS's nose off right now! There are procedures and protocols > and pecking orders to preserve here and we'd much rather let VMS sink than > fix a hole that hasn't been reported in the proper fashion. Lock that > degenerate, impertinent, filth down there with Leonardo Di Caprio - Their > unpleasantness is upsetting our view of those lovely ice bergs. I mean, > how > much water is it letting in anyway.". > I'm trying to stifle my gut reaction to call you an... The bug was fixed - not ignored. The guy who fixed it may even have given the guy "unofficially" complaining a fix (or told him the one-line edit to the command procedure). The fact that it didn't get released as a V8.2 fix has nothing to do with the price of tea in China and was discussed in response to your earlier screed. We do not ignore bugs simply because they were found or reported through non-official channels. However how we respond and release a fix for a problem *can* be effected by it - because like it or not - customers paying for service are the ones who come first. **IF** you or your friend had a support contract and asked for a fix for V8.2 - then you would have gotten a fix - and if you insisted on it - an official ECO kit for V8.2. Instead the fix went into the mainstream changes and not into a special V8.2 kit - because it is a low-priority problem on a version that isn't mainstream. How do you believe we should respond to problems reported by hobbiests? What then is the difference between someone who pays for a license and service and someone who reports something on COV or via an e-mail to an engineer? I don't know what it is with you. Everything is some conspiracy. Everyone is arrogant, or evil, or lazy, or stupid or some other nasty name you want to throw out. If there isn't an immediate response to whatever you happen to be hot-to-trot on - it must be because we're all idiots. JF complained a long time ago about a CERT regarding a malformed image file that could create a buffer overflow. Making it do something really bad other than crashing the application on VMS would be nearly impossible. Hey - there was no bug report - just a complaint in COV about a obscure CERT. But I used my contacts to get the source to the fix and had the engineers here fix the problem. Guess what? It too was never released as an explicit ECO - because NO CUSTOMER has ever seen the problem. Heck, in the real world no UNIX customer ever saw it. How we respond to a problem is context dependent. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 13:04:49 +0000 (UTC) From: helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---remove CLOTHES to reply) Subject: Re: VMSMail notification message Message-ID: In article , norm.raphael@metso.com writes: > > $! EE.COM > > $! > > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE EDT_FILE 'P1' > > $ FILE = F$ELEMENT(0,".",P1) > > $ TYPE = F$ELEMENT(1,".",P1) > > $ JFL = FILE + "_" + TYPE + ".JOU" > > $ IF F$SEARCH(JFL) .NES. "" THEN GOTO JOURNAL > > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMAND > > $ EDIT/EDT/JOURNAL='JFL' 'P1' > > $ EXIT > > $JOURNAL: > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "%EE-E-JRNLFE, journal file exists" > > $ READ/PROMPT="press return to recover, ^Y to abort " SYS$COMMAND ANSW > > $ DEFINE/USER_MODE SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMAND > > $ EDIT/EDT/JOURNAL='JFL'/RECOVER 'P1' > > $ EXIT > > > > Then put this in EDTINI.EDT: > > > > DEFINE KEY GOLD W AS "EXT WRITE EDT_FILE." > > > Why not just put this in EDTINI.EDT and you can write any file from any > buffer anytime. > > Define Key Gold O as "EXT WRITE ?'Output file: ' =?' From buffer named: > ' ; FIND LAST." I'll give it a try! > (I do use a file, but that's not needed for this.) ------------------------------ Date: 19 May 2007 13:44:29 GMT From: Doc Subject: [OT] Steampunk keyboard. was: Re: Still want: LK461 keyboard Message-ID: Rambo wrote in news:1179529293.500797.120430 @q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com: > I can't believe that no one has a spare one. And I'm in very need! > I haven't expand my AS600 to full 1 GB for nothing you know! :-D > > Rambo > Can't help you with the keyboard, but if Santa is listening... http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml The guy doesn't list a contact address. :( Yes, I'd love a Digital keyboard redone in this style. Doc. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.274 ************************