INFO-VAX Wed, 18 Apr 2007 Volume 2007 : Issue 213 Contents: Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Re: can you handle this? Re: can you handle this? Re: can you handle this? Re: Error Checking in DCL using $severity ES40 to ES45 Upgrade only $4995 ! Re: Mozilla (CSWB) memory performance riddle. Re: Mozilla (CSWB) memory performance riddle. Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Re: Now I've seen everything Re: Now I've seen everything Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: OT: OpenVMS Re: Problem with BACKUP/LIST/JOU/SINCE/SELECT Re: Problem with BACKUP/LIST/JOU/SINCE/SELECT Re: VMS Alpha to Itanium port Re: VMS Alpha to Itanium port ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:47:38 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Message-ID: <8fc7a$46252491$cef8887a$16720@TEKSAVVY.COM> Neil Rieck wrote: > 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture > http://www.ddj.com/dept/64bit/198701094?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All Another recent article pointed to Intel developping 8086 architecture chips for handhelds (replacing Arm architecture) as well as for telecom devices (routers etc). Remember that the next generation 8086 will also sport that new common system interface chipset which will allow the 8086 to scale to larger systems. So while Intel expands the market for the 8086 architecture, we don't see any movement to grow IA64 beyond HP's HPUX/VMS offerings. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 18:33:33 -0400 From: "Neil Rieck" Subject: Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Message-ID: <46253e7d$0$16335$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> "JF Mezei" wrote in message news:8fc7a$46252491$cef8887a$16720@TEKSAVVY.COM... > Neil Rieck wrote: >> 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture >> http://www.ddj.com/dept/64bit/198701094?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All > > Another recent article pointed to Intel developping 8086 architecture > chips for handhelds (replacing Arm architecture) as well as for telecom > devices (routers etc). > > Remember that the next generation 8086 will also sport that new common > system interface chipset which will allow the 8086 to scale to larger > systems. > > So while Intel expands the market for the 8086 architecture, we don't see > any movement to grow IA64 beyond HP's HPUX/VMS offerings. > Yep. BTW, a few people have responded privately to my post but these emails all seem to possess a feeling of futility. NSR -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:24:38 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: >> 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture >> http://www.ddj.com/dept/64bit/198701094?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_All > > Another recent article pointed to Intel developping 8086 architecture > chips for handhelds (replacing Arm architecture) as well as for telecom > devices (routers etc). > > Remember that the next generation 8086 will also sport that new common > system interface chipset which will allow the 8086 to scale to larger > systems. > > So while Intel expands the market for the 8086 architecture, we don't > see any movement to grow IA64 beyond HP's HPUX/VMS offerings. Where did I put those aluminum BB bats? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:24:55 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: 64-bit: Intel Unveils New x86 Microarchitecture Message-ID: <7f57e$46258fbe$cef8887a$16815@TEKSAVVY.COM> Dave Froble wrote: > > Where did I put those aluminum BB bats? > http://www.vaxination.ca/decus/ Scroll down the left frame until you get to "payback time" and you'll see one of your basebal bats put to good use. Was disapointed you never commented on those since it was done on your behalf... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:59:11 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: >> I have to ask: Why does a programming language (other than an >> interpretive environment) need a "garbage collector"??!! Not to get into a religious debate, but don't languages that do lots of stuff behind the scenes "for you" tend to result in sloppy programming because programmers lose some discipline ? To me, it seems essential that any routine that allocates memory for a structure should have an accompanying one to deallocate that structure (and any substructures attached to it). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:42:00 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] > Sent: April 17, 2007 2:59 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >=20 > >> I have to ask: Why does a programming language (other than an > >> interpretive environment) need a "garbage collector"??!! >=20 >=20 > Not to get into a religious debate, but don't languages that do lots > of > stuff behind the scenes "for you" tend to result in sloppy programming > because programmers lose some discipline ? >=20 > To me, it seems essential that any routine that allocates memory for a > structure should have an accompanying one to deallocate that structure > (and any substructures attached to it). Now that would make to much sense - it would never work .. :-) I have to agree.=20 While the entire Java world uses garbage collection, I have never found anyone (yet) who could explain to me why a properly designed and debugged application needs to have a system level process running in the background cleaning up allocated memory and other app cleanup stuff on the system. It also seems to me that a system level process kicking in at various times not under your control to do application clean-up maintenance is also not a very good approach to real time or mission critical application processing design. However, I am certainly willing to be enlightened. :-) Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:43:55 GMT From: Rob Brown Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2007, JF Mezei wrote: > To me, it seems essential that any routine that allocates memory for > a structure should have an accompanying one to deallocate that > structure (and any substructures attached to it). It has been ages since I have thought about garbage collection, so perhaps my understanding is obsolete. I thought garbage collection was required to defragment the heap so that you could have a large enough contiguous chunk of memory to satisfy a request. I can't guess why that would have to be a system level process instead of a subroutine within the application. I could possibly make an argument for garbage collection on a small memory machine. OTOH, RSX did not do garbage collection on primary pool. On a modern virtual memory system ;-), I think you would have to work pretty hard to completely fragment your address space. -- Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice) Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX) http://gmcl.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:53:34 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: Rob Brown wrote: > I thought garbage collection was required to defragment the heap so > that you could have a large enough contiguous chunk of memory to > satisfy a request. That was the case in the original MacOS. When you allocated memory, you had to use a double pointer in case the system moved your block around in the background. (This happened prior to MacOS went to a virtual memory model) But in the current context, some of the "newfangled" languages allocate stuff on your behalf and then eventually come around to deallocate stuff you don't use anymore. (in contrast with C where calling a subroutine causes its local variable to be allocated upon entry, and deallocated upon exit). ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 15:30:50 -0700 From: Joshua Lehrer Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <1176849049.967086.272880@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 16, 12:44 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been trying to find out if the Boehm GC works on VMS, and have so > far not found anything, except a mention of a porting attempt from > 1995 (this group, google). > > Is there a garbage collector for C++ that works on VMS? > > Johann C++ has advanced so much since 1995 that I wouldn't want to use a garbage collector designed in 1995. The VMS HP compiler is very good as far as conforming to The Holy Standard goes. You should be able to find any well written garbage collector and compile it on VMS with very little problem. You may have a harder time finding a good GC than getting it to compile on VMS. :) joshua lehrer http://www.lehrerfamily.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 22:35:30 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <58l0diF2gth1aU1@mid.individual.net> In article , "Main, Kerry" writes: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca] >> Sent: April 17, 2007 2:59 PM >> To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >> Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >>=20 >> >> I have to ask: Why does a programming language (other than an >> >> interpretive environment) need a "garbage collector"??!! >>=20 >>=20 >> Not to get into a religious debate, but don't languages that do lots >> of >> stuff behind the scenes "for you" tend to result in sloppy programming >> because programmers lose some discipline ? >>=20 >> To me, it seems essential that any routine that allocates memory for a >> structure should have an accompanying one to deallocate that structure >> (and any substructures attached to it). > > Now that would make to much sense - it would never work .. > >:-) > > I have to agree.=20 > > While the entire Java world uses garbage collection, I have never found > anyone (yet) who could explain to me why a properly designed and > debugged application needs to have a system level process running in the > background cleaning up allocated memory and other app cleanup stuff on > the system. Because the Java paradigm does not include such things as proper design or debugging. > > It also seems to me that a system level process kicking in at various > times not under your control to do application clean-up maintenance is > also not a very good approach to real time or mission critical > application processing design. So, what's your point. we are talking about Java and C++ here. And anyway, if the program crashes it's much easier to just blame the language tnah to expend extra effort verifying that your program is actually doing what it's supposed to. > > However, I am certainly willing to be enlightened. My guess is it has something to do with compacting free memory rather than actual garbage collection. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:25:01 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <46257344$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> JF Mezei wrote: >>> I have to ask: Why does a programming language (other than an >>> interpretive environment) need a "garbage collector"??!! > > > Not to get into a religious debate, but don't languages that do lots of > stuff behind the scenes "for you" tend to result in sloppy programming > because programmers lose some discipline ? I am sure all the assembler programmers said the same when Fortran arrived. And you are probably right. But programming is very rarely a matter of creating the optimal code. It is usually about creating something that meets requirements as quickly as possible (read: as cheaply as possible). > To me, it seems essential that any routine that allocates memory for a > structure should have an accompanying one to deallocate that structure > (and any substructures attached to it). It is obvious. It is also an observable fact that programmers sometimes forget. Relying on programmers to always do the right thing is not a successful paradigm. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:28:12 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <46257401$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Main, Kerry wrote: > While the entire Java world uses garbage collection, I have never found > anyone (yet) who could explain to me why a properly designed and > debugged application needs to have a system level process running in the > background cleaning up allocated memory and other app cleanup stuff on > the system. Experience shows that garbage collectors are more reliable and cheaper than programmers. > It also seems to me that a system level process kicking in at various > times not under your control to do application clean-up maintenance is > also not a very good approach to real time or mission critical > application processing design. I can not see why GC should be a problem for mission critical apps. I am sure there a lots of mission critical apps using GC. It is well known that GC and real time systems does not fit well. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:02:44 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: <46257C44.8D70C60A@spam.comcast.net> Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: > > David J. Dachtera writes: > > > I have to ask: Why does a programming language (other than an > > interpretive environment) need a "garbage collector"??!! > > Maybe I'm implementing one in C++ and don't want to write my own > garbage collector? Boehm GC, afaict, is very popular among such > projects. ...which illustrates the difference in paradigm. You're looking for something you think you need. I'm asking why you need something that should never be needed. If a compiled/linked program still needs garbage collection, either the run-time, the program or both are seriously deficient. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 23:38:57 -0400 From: "Main, Kerry" Subject: RE: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Arne Vajh=F8j [mailto:arne@vajhoej.dk] > Sent: April 17, 2007 9:28 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: C++ Garbage Collector on VMS? >=20 > Main, Kerry wrote: > > While the entire Java world uses garbage collection, I have never > found > > anyone (yet) who could explain to me why a properly designed and > > debugged application needs to have a system level process running in > the > > background cleaning up allocated memory and other app cleanup stuff > on > > the system. >=20 > Experience shows that garbage collectors are more > reliable and cheaper than programmers. >=20 > > It also seems to me that a system level process kicking in at > various > > times not under your control to do application clean-up maintenance > is > > also not a very good approach to real time or mission critical > > application processing design. >=20 > I can not see why GC should be a problem for mission critical apps. >=20 Well, as I recall, one typically has very little control of when GC = runs, hence a system process that kicks in during peak time for = transactions does not seem like something you would want to risk.=20 It also seems to me that a solution is certainly not a good one when = memory is not properly allocated and de-allocated by design and depends = on system processes to compensate for poor programming practices. > I am sure there a lots of mission critical apps using GC. >=20 > It is well known that GC and real time systems does not fit well. >=20 > Arne Regards Kerry Main Senior Consultant HP Services Canada Voice: 613-592-4660 Fax: 613-591-4477 kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom (remove the DOT's and AT)=20 OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:47:27 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: can you handle this? Message-ID: <07041715472765_202002DA@antinode.org> From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) > In article <1176829596.904408.263830@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, genius@marblecliff.com writes: > > > > I am right here ... you do not need email ... why do you > > insist on discussing things by email ... why not in the > > open ... what are you hiding? > > > > I am not hiding anything, and I do discuss these matters elsewhere. > > However, what you obviously fail to grasp is that this is not the right > place for such a discussion because this newsgroup is about VMS. Bo[o]b: Render unto VMS that which is of VMS. Perhaps you should consider that popular question, "What would Jesus post?" ("WWJP"). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode.org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:07:14 -0500 (CDT) From: sms@antinode.org (Steven M. Schweda) Subject: Re: can you handle this? Message-ID: <07041716071451_202002DA@antinode.org> From: genius@marblecliff.com > I am already saved ... I do not need no effort ... you are the one > who should be worried when you die and stand at your judgement > if you are an atheist ... Bo[o]b: Regarding the prospect of meeting you in Heaven, as a wise man once said, "Heaven for climate; Hell for society." I'll take my chances on Hell. Thanks all the same for your concern, but try not to lose any sleep over us poor, doomed souls. I'll return to clutter-reduction mode now. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven M. Schweda sms@antinode.org 382 South Warwick Street (+1) 651-699-9818 Saint Paul MN 55105-2547 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:29:50 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: can you handle this? Message-ID: Simon Clubley wrote: > In article <6uqdnenvKtOay7nbnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble writes: >> Forget it Simon. His mouth works, but his ears don't. >> > > Sadly, I've come to the same conclusion myself. > > To answer Bill Todd's "why even try" question elsewhere, I've had some > quite interesting conversations with strongly religious people about their > viewpoints versus my own atheist This indicates that you have a problem as big as boob's, if not so strident. AS he has no real evidence to support his version of a god, you have no real evidence to be able to claim that there is not a god. What's wrong with saying, there is not enough/any evidence to support any conclusions, and therefore, "I just don't know"? > and liberal viewpoints but unfortunately > Bob appears to be incapable (or simply afraid) to think about and explain > why he believes what he does. > > Here ends my attempts at trying to communicate with him. > > I think that any followups to this post should be in email as it's nothing > to do with COV - note that my email address in the From line has been > altered to protect against spambots. > > Simon. > -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 2007 05:18:16 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: Error Checking in DCL using $severity Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:34:53 UTC, Ken Fairfield wrote: > Steven M. Schweda wrote: > > From: JF Mezei > > > >> Because it used to be possible to exit with a status of 0 (probably with > >> vaxC). > > > > alp $ type ets.c > > #include > > > > main() > > { > > sys$exit( 0); > > Calling sys$exit with zero as its argument is far different > then using "return 0;". In the latter case, the CRTL can > fix-up the return value to set $STATUS to 1. In the former > case, I'd be very surprised, indeed, unhappy if I told > sys$exit a value that *didn't* get reflected in $STATUS... > > > } > > > > alp $ cc ets > > alp $ link ets > > alp $ r ets > > %NONAME-W-NOMSG, Message number 00000000 > > > > > > It's not entirely obvious to me why any rational person would prefer > > this behavior. > > > >> [...] How much UNIX > >> incompatibility would you like? > > > > Still waiting ... > > -Ken If I wrote sys$exit( 0); I should be a bit teed off if a compiler or VMS decided to change it to success as I'd probably be trying to indicate failure. OTOH if I used C's exit (0); I should probably be happy if I'd written it for Unix. -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:30:25 -0400 From: "David Turner, Island Computers" Subject: ES40 to ES45 Upgrade only $4995 ! Message-ID: <132abiut0tavee9@news.supernews.com> We currently have some (7) ES45 Model 2 off-lease. These are 1Ghz EV68C machines. They are upgradeable to 1.2Ghz but that is still a little pricey ! Barebones system only $4995 These don't use the same memory as the ES40 but do use pretty much the same other parts. Same power supplies, graphic cards disk cage rackmount kit, etc. Memory - 2GB HP Memory $1299 4GB HP Memory $2995 Uses 133Mhz 200PIN SDRAM JEDEC fyi Call or email if interested -- David B Turner Island Computers US Corp 2700 Gregory St, Suite 180 Savannah GA 31404 T: 877-6364332 x201 Intl: 001 912 447 6622 E: dturner-at-islandco-dot-com F: 912 201 0402 W: http://www.islandco.com ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 21:07:54 +0200 From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER) Subject: Re: Mozilla (CSWB) memory performance riddle. Message-ID: <4625372a$1@news.langstoeger.at> In article <1176828150.635400.22690@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Rambo writes: >On DEC2000 i can browse how long I want and whatever pages I want, >on AS600 it breaks with EXQUOTA or "physical memory exhausted" within >two browsed pages... I'd upping the UAF and AUTOGENning the SYSGEN. /AST=300/BIO=1024/BYT=2000000/DIO=1024/ENQ=4096/FIL=4096/PGFL=2097152 as a start (or use AMDS/AVAILMAN to find out what resource is limited)... -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:10:44 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: Mozilla (CSWB) memory performance riddle. Message-ID: Rambo wrote: > On DEC2000 i can browse how long I want and whatever pages I want, > on AS600 it breaks with EXQUOTA or "physical memory exhausted" within > two browsed pages... > > Any clue why is that? Somehow I'm not buying DECwindows X server > abusing memory so much... For the second paragraph, you are correct. The X server, when it runs out of quota, simply displays screwed up pictures (or no picture at all), grinds your system to a slow crawl etc. EXQUOTA on the first paragraph happens to your mozilla process. You need to increase PGFILQUOTA big time. Here is what I have for the account that runs mozilla: Maxjobs: 0 Fillm: 300 Bytlm: 100000 Maxacctjobs: 0 Shrfillm: 0 Pbytlm: 0 Maxdetach: 0 BIOlm: 50 JTquota: 4096 Prclm: 20 DIOlm: 50 WSdef: 600 Prio: 4 ASTlm: 100 WSquo: 20000 Queprio: 0 TQElm: 50 WSextent: 84000 CPU: (none) Enqlm: 300 Pgflquo: 450000 (and yes, you need a HUGE page file). You need at least 750,000 pages for the X server. In terms of physical memory exhausted message I am not sure about that. what does SHOW MEMORY indicate ? DO you run 8.3 with the virtual disk cache ? You can reduce its size and free up much needed RAM (HELP SHOW MEMORY MC SYSGEN HELP SYS VCC_MAX_CACHE (and you set $SET CACHE/RESET after) I have 256 megs and the page file is used exhaustively when browsing the web. Mozilla seems to waste memory big time. MOSAIC is much better behaved and much faster. (but lacks some of the features needed to access some sites such as the evil javascript). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:59:00 +0000 (UTC) From: moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) Subject: Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Message-ID: Rambo writes: >Bugcheck Type: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL >No process, active image nor module. Offset: 00000001(!) >With booting with 0,1000 it was revealed that it happens right after >"entering SWAPPER main loop". It's likely a crash in a driver or other system code which runs at high IPL (well, we already know its at an elevated IPL). The concept of the "active process" or "active image" really isn't valid at such IPLs since things such as timer or hardware interrupts can happen at any time, while any process (or none) are active. You'd need someone who knows how to read VMS crash dumps to really find what's going on, there's not enough info there. My guess is hardware, something broke when removing or inserting a card, or one is not seated properly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:01:27 -0400 From: "FredK" Subject: Re: Mysterious BUGCHECK while booting 7.3-1 on DEC2000 Message-ID: "Rambo" wrote in message news:1176826788.840054.194790@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > Hiya, > > Just when I thought things were all right, I now having BUGCHECKs > while trying to boot VMS on my lovely Jensen. > > Backstory: Yesterday bought an EISA S3 928 board, and while it even > worked, it displayed in preposterous resolution none of my monitors > couldn't handle. So I but the ISA board back, ECUed the machine... and > all hell broke loose. > There is no graphics server for the S3 928 > Bugcheck Type: INVEXCEPTN, Exception while above ASTDEL > No process, active image nor module. Offset: 00000001(!) > With booting with 0,1000 it was revealed that it happens right after > "entering SWAPPER main loop". > > So I put back EISA board and the system mysteriously recovered and was > booting... right until today morning- when it started crashing again. > > In desperation I started plugging out boards, to get system working > only after I pulled out VGA and started with serial console. So that's > the solution, but does anyone have a clue what does the machine > actually not like? Did anyone encounter such behaviour before? > > Rambo > Well, first you need to look at the crash dump. Try SHOW CRASH for starters. SHO STACK. SHO CALL/SUMM. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:07:09 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Now I've seen everything Message-ID: <46257D4D.C3D188CD@spam.comcast.net> Marc Van Dyck wrote: > > David J Dachtera formulated on mardi : > > Neil Rieck wrote: > >> > >> Last night on TLC the boys from American Chopper received a phone call > >> from HP. It seems that the boys down in Houston want to have an HP- > >> Themed chopper built for some such reason. Was it a set-up when Paul > >> Sr. smashed a working PC then stepped on it and found that it still > >> worked? I don't know but I now can die in peace because I have seen > >> everything. > > > > Well, not quite everything. You haven't seen: > > > > o A full-page ad in the mainstream media for anything running on or related > > to OpenVMS-I64 > > > > o An I64 SuperDome that can outperform an Alpha EV7z GS1280 > > Sorry to rain on your parade, Dave, but I think a Superdome with > Montecito CPUs does that fingers in the nose. See the Itanium/Integrity presentations from the most recent HP Tech Forum, Fall 2006 in Houston. Let me know if you can't find/access them. The issue is not CPU-related, it's internal architecture related. Memory access times are problematic, unless there's been a major break through in that area. Add to this the fact that Power-5 outperforms EV7z by 3 to 1, and well, need I go on? > For the two other parts of your reply, there I'll admit that you have > a point. Quite. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 2007 05:18:14 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: Now I've seen everything Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:48:53 UTC, David J Dachtera wrote: > Neil Rieck wrote: > > > > Last night on TLC the boys from American Chopper received a phone call > > from HP. It seems that the boys down in Houston want to have an HP- > > Themed chopper built for some such reason. Was it a set-up when Paul > > Sr. smashed a working PC then stepped on it and found that it still > > worked? I don't know but I now can die in peace because I have seen > > everything. > > Well, not quite everything. You haven't seen: > > o A full-page ad in the mainstream media for anything running on or related to > OpenVMS-I64 > > o An I64 SuperDome that can outperform an Alpha EV7z GS1280 > > o A lucid, reasonable post from Boob. Hang on David, I do remember one :) I commented as much at the time! -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:53:06 -0400 From: JF Mezei Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: AEF wrote: > I posted an ON-TOPIC question about BACKUP/LIST/JOURNAL/SINCE and have > gotten only 3 responses. Here's your chance for some ON TOPIC > discussion. Can anyone please help? This could be a sign that nobody knowns the answer. I would have loved to be able to provide you with an answer, but I really do not know the answer and all the suggestion I would have made were already made. I have come to the conclusion that the current rash off discussions are the result of everyone's VMS systems purring nicely without problems and we can take some time to chat about "other stuff" :-( So perhaps it should be seen as a tribute to VMS ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:58:15 +0200 From: "Dr. Dweeb" Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: <4625368d$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > In article <46228b17$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >> >> >> David J Dachtera wrote: >>> VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>> Isn't it? >>> >>> Recent experience seems to indicate that VMS is indeed off-topic in >>> corporate planning sessions, budgeting processes, etc. >> >> I do not think that was what Brian was referring to. >> >> Arne > > Exactly Arne! > > BTW, I will have a friend from Denmark (Horsens) here for a week > beginning > late next Monday. He's a cricket fan and runs the Danish cricket > site. I > going to take him to a baseball game to see if he can follow along. :) Most cricketers understand baseball. The reverse is rarely true. I know almost every cricketer in Denmark personally, so just who is your friend (since I do not know to which site you refer)? cricket.dk ? Dweeb. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 21:37:24 GMT From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: <58kt0kF2hjc4dU1@mid.individual.net> In article <4625368d$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <46228b17$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >>> >>> >>> David J Dachtera wrote: >>>> VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>> Isn't it? >>>> >>>> Recent experience seems to indicate that VMS is indeed off-topic in >>>> corporate planning sessions, budgeting processes, etc. >>> >>> I do not think that was what Brian was referring to. >>> >>> Arne >> >> Exactly Arne! >> >> BTW, I will have a friend from Denmark (Horsens) here for a week >> beginning >> late next Monday. He's a cricket fan and runs the Danish cricket >> site. I >> going to take him to a baseball game to see if he can follow along. :) > > Most cricketers understand baseball. The reverse is rarely true. I know > almost every cricketer in Denmark personally, so just who is your friend > (since I do not know to which site you refer)? cricket.dk ? I miss playing cricket, even if all I ever got to do was play with the neighborhood kids. (Funny thing that. They all loved me because even though I had no kids of my own I played with them while their own fathers never seemed to. At least not in public. Must be a British thing.) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 00:22:12 GMT From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: <00A664B6.8C02A78E@SendSpamHere.ORG> In article <4625368d$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>, "Dr. Dweeb" writes: > > >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >> In article <46228b17$0$90272$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, >> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= writes: >>> >>> >>> David J Dachtera wrote: >>>> VAXman-, @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>>>> Isn't it? >>>> >>>> Recent experience seems to indicate that VMS is indeed off-topic in >>>> corporate planning sessions, budgeting processes, etc. >>> >>> I do not think that was what Brian was referring to. >>> >>> Arne >> >> Exactly Arne! >> >> BTW, I will have a friend from Denmark (Horsens) here for a week >> beginning >> late next Monday. He's a cricket fan and runs the Danish cricket >> site. I >> going to take him to a baseball game to see if he can follow along. :) > >Most cricketers understand baseball. The reverse is rarely true. I know >almost every cricketer in Denmark personally, so just who is your friend >(since I do not know to which site you refer)? cricket.dk ? > >Dweeb. Yes, cricket.dk. Is there another? Well, I'll ask him if he knows any dweebs when I pick him up at JKF on Monday eve. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:16:01 -0400 From: Dave Froble Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: JF Mezei wrote: > AEF wrote: >> I posted an ON-TOPIC question about BACKUP/LIST/JOURNAL/SINCE and have >> gotten only 3 responses. Here's your chance for some ON TOPIC >> discussion. Can anyone please help? > > > This could be a sign that nobody knowns the answer. I would have loved > to be able to provide you with an answer, but I really do not know the > answer and all the suggestion I would have made were already made. > > I have come to the conclusion that the current rash off discussions are > the result of everyone's VMS systems purring nicely without problems and > we can take some time to chat about "other stuff" :-( > > So perhaps it should be seen as a tribute to VMS ... BACKUP /LIST /LIST[=file-spec] Command Qualifier Lists information about a BACKUP save set and about the files in a save set. You can display the list on your terminal or write it to a file. Ok, where in the above does is say that only part of a save set can be listed? Answer, it does not. I ran across this recently. I wanted to search for some files. But I got the entire save set listing. Since the /SELECT switch doesn't specifically say that it cannot be used in a /LIST operation, I assumed that it would work. No matter what I tried, it would not work. So here is the question. Does anybody recall anytime in the past when /SELECT would work with /LIST? Just wondering if this behavior changed at any time. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:32:12 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?= Subject: Re: OT: OpenVMS Message-ID: <462574f1$0$90271$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > BTW, I will have a friend from Denmark (Horsens) here for a week beginning > late next Monday. He's a cricket fan and runs the Danish cricket site. I > going to take him to a baseball game to see if he can follow along. :) I am a lot closer to New Jersey than to Horsens at the moment. Arne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:10:54 -0500 From: David J Dachtera Subject: Re: Problem with BACKUP/LIST/JOU/SINCE/SELECT Message-ID: <46257E2E.263DBBB7@spam.comcast.net> AEF wrote: > > On Apr 16, 10:52 pm, David J Dachtera > wrote: > > [snip] > > A little more background may be useful... > > I have a BACKUP journal file that consists of several save set > "listings". I want to extract the listing of just the latest one. > According to the docs, I should be able to use /SINC to select save > sets after the /SINCE date, but it only works for /BEFORE, which > doesn't help me. Ah. Well, I looked at the on-line help, but it doesn't go into enough detail on /SINCE for me to confirm that. Any chance you can cite the on-line documentation? I've rarely used BACKUP journals as they do not provide all the info I need. What I typically need is not available: the detail which only appears in the listing with the events which appear only in the journal (like volume cross-overs and such). Maybe a new qualifer, /JLIST[=filespec] which combines both. -- David J Dachtera dba DJE Systems http://www.djesys.com/ Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/ Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/ Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/ Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/ ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 20:22:48 -0700 From: Doug Phillips Subject: Re: Problem with BACKUP/LIST/JOU/SINCE/SELECT Message-ID: <1176866568.204780.32120@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com> On Apr 16, 2:31 pm, "AEF" wrote: > $ BACK/LIS/JOU=STOR-2007/SINC=1-APR-2007/SELE=BITMAP > Listing of BACKUP journal > Journal file SYS$SYSDEVICE:[FELDMAN.BACKUP]STOR-2007.BJL;1 on 16- > APR-2007 21:29:13.63 > > Save set STOR-070131.IMG created on 31-JAN-2007 10:12:32.08 > Volume number 1, volume label STOR50 > [000000]BITMAP.SYS;1 file header only > > Save set STOR-070302.IMG created on 2-MAR-2007 20:37:59.84 > Volume number 1, volume label STOR50 > [000000]BITMAP.SYS;1 file header only > . > . > . > > VMS V6.2 > > OK, what am I doing wrong? It works fine for /BEFORE, but seems to > completely ignore /SINCE. > On both V6.2 VAX and V7.3-2 Alpha I get the same results. /BEFORE works as expected, but /SINCE seems to be ignored. ------------------------------ Date: 17 Apr 2007 15:56:34 -0700 From: Bob Gezelter Subject: Re: VMS Alpha to Itanium port Message-ID: <1176850594.077376.31800@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com> On Apr 12, 2:56 pm, "Chris Townley" wrote: > Just suddenly had the concept of porting a legacy in house application > from Alpha to Integrity given to me. > > Currently running VMS 6.2 on Alpha - application consists of some 3500 > modules Basic, with a smattering of C and macro code. This is an > application I know well, and have been maintaining/developing for some > years. However the oprogrammingh tyeam that took it in-house some 12 > years ago is now just me. > > I wont even look at the macro - if it doesnt run out of the box, I > rewrite as required, and there is nothing fancy in the C > > However the main area will be the basic. Has anyone any ideas what > issues are likely? > > TIA > -- > Chris Chris, Many good things have been said, and I will not belabor the points by repeating them. However, I should note that if your sources are old enough, in both C and BASIC, you will encounter changes in syntax and semantics that can be laborious to correct. Not difficult, merely a bit of editing required. As an example, VAX C permitted some non- standard syntax conventions for constants. These conventions were not adopted by ANSI C. ALPHA C permitted the use of the VAX conventions. The Intel C compiler does not. I suggest caution, until you get a feel of what, if any, patterns in your code base are sources of problems. While it is rare, the changes in floating point formats can cause a problem, or at best be disconcerting, when comparing data produced on IA-64 with data produced on Alpha. I have suggested that it is a good idea to switch floating point formats on the Alpha first, and then compare the IEEE standard results against one another. - Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 2007 05:18:11 +0100 From: "Dave Weatherall" Subject: Re: VMS Alpha to Itanium port Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:23:10 UTC, Dave Froble wrote: > Dave Weatherall wrote: > > On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 22:06:53 UTC, Dave Froble > > wrote: > > > >> D-Float on itanic is implemented in software, and I believe, does the > >> actual calculations in IEEE. This can cause problems. > >> > >> I know there are people who will say, "why don't you just use IEEE", but > >> what about the data files with 20 years worth of data? It's not just a > >> programming issue. > > > > Or because you're talking to/controlling a system running on VAX with > > D-Float only. Not sure what the story is on precision. My memory is > > that the Dec floating points are more precise with less range than > > their IEEE equivalents. Or is that only the singles? OTOH I guess > > (hope?) that s/w emulation of G_floats would be _relatively_ swift on > > an Itanium and thus be capable of executing VMS code originally > > written for VAX at a more- than-acceptable pace. Still to find the > > time to try it... > > > > My understanding is that the D-float uses 3 bits more of precision, > which are lost when the data is converted to IEEE for computation and > then converted back to D-float. > > Some people have long ago adopted the convention of rounding all D-float > data after each computation, and to check for equality by testing for > differences being smaller than a selected small value. Yep - I learned that one the hard way :) -- Cheers - Dave W. ------------------------------ End of INFO-VAX 2007.213 ************************